Why is this one so rubbish?

[Karnack]

Here we go again, another "brilliant" idea from me that ends up in me realizing that I will never understand the match engine or maybe even football for that matter. This time I had a plan, I had a certain focus and I kinda knew how I wanted to play.

These where the bullet points on how I wanted the tactic to be constructed and work in general:

1. I wanted to use an AMC of some sort as the main creator, creating tons of nice killer balls for a striker and some inside forwards/wingers
2. I didn't want to use a ton of TIs just for the sake of it.
3. I wanted to use two DMs to still keep the tactic strong defensively despite having basically 4 attackers.
4. I didn't prioritize keeping possession for possessions sake, I wanted to use the creativity and speed of my attackers to quickly create scoring opportunities.
5. I wanted to use a Segundo Volante as the link between defence and attack.
6. And I wanted to play from defence but allow my DCs to still take risks in order to quickly move forward.

This is what I ended up with:

It worked pretty nice for about 2 months. I was in the lead in my CL-group, I had beaten Man U at Anfield 3-0 at the start of the season and we had the best goal difference in the league, lounging on a 4th position behind giants Stoke, Newcastle and Southampton. Then familiarity turned to Fluid on all aspects and everything came crashing down on us. End of november now and I haven't won in the PL for 6 games in 10th position and about to get the boot. Quickly dropped down in CL from 1st to 3rd and about the fail my group.

I have no idea why. Everything looks normal, we just can't hit a barn door whilst an injured Xherdan Shaqiri scores wonder goals three times in the same game against me.

So my question to you:

Was the tactic worthless to begin with and luck gave us a good start and a good moral spiral?
Where did my thinking go wrong? What of the points above did I completely fail to accomplish with my tactic?

It's good that The Reckonist create nice tactics or I would have stopped playing long ago because I can't grasp anything in this game it seems.

[Bigpapa42]

The tactic isn't fundamentally "wrong", at least to my eyes. But the first two issues that the game identifies for you are telling you a lot - taking long range shots and not converting despite getting into the opposition area. My guess is that you are facing a lot of "parked buses" as teams defend deep against you, then they look to counter. If you are facing 8 or 9 men deep, you have to find ways to get through. Pushing up higher with more men in the box doesn't solve the problem. You need space and movement. Long shots often happen because the player is isolated or lacks better options. Isolation probably isn't the concern here, but for example, having your SV coming in late as a support runner but with a packed box, they might not have any available passing options despite having several attacking players, so they have a pop.

A few thoughts...

-what are you seeing? You really need to be watching matches. Why are the long shots happening? Are you seeing packed boxes? And most important, why are you conceding goals?

-why wingers? They will stay wide and put in crosses. Against a packed box. Are Firmino or Ozil target man types? Given the players you have, I would think you would want them cutting inside, looking to score themselves.

-what kind of goals are you conceding? You said Shaqiri wonder goals and you have to accept that sometimes good players are just going to have great moments. But I'm guessing you are conceding on counters when you are stretched out.... you have two DMs, but one will be forward a lot, and the wingbacks will be aggressive, so you will have three players back at times. When a team is looking to do a Leicester, you are basically playing into their hands.

-do your two BPDs get aggressive with the passing and turn the ball over at times? You want to play through them but using BPDs will mean they try to make riskier passes. Which will mean they might be popping the ball forward to the wingers & Ozil at times, and turning the ball over. Not a certainty but something I'd be watching for.

[Karnack]

3 minutes ago, Bigpapa42 said:

The tactic isn't fundamentally "wrong", at least to my eyes. But the first two issues that the game identifies for you are telling you a lot - taking long range shots and not converting despite getting into the opposition area. My guess is that you are facing a lot of "parked buses" as teams defend deep against you, then they look to counter. If you are facing 8 or 9 men deep, you have to find ways to get through. Pushing up higher with more men in the box doesn't solve the problem. You need space and movement. Long shots often happen because the player is isolated or lacks better options. Isolation probably isn't the concern here, but for example, having your SV coming in late as a support runner but with a packed box, they might not have any available passing options despite having several attacking players, so they have a pop.

A few thoughts...

-what are you seeing? You really need to be watching matches. Why are the long shots happening? Are you seeing packed boxes? And most important, why are you conceding goals?

-why wingers? They will stay wide and put in crosses. Against a packed box. Are Firmino or Ozil target man types? Given the players you have, I would think you would want them cutting inside, looking to score themselves.

-what kind of goals are you conceding? You said Shaqiri wonder goals and you have to accept that sometimes good players are just going to have great moments. But I'm guessing you are conceding on counters when you are stretched out.... you have two DMs, but one will be forward a lot, and the wingbacks will be aggressive, so you will have three players back at times. When a team is looking to do a Leicester, you are basically playing into their hands.

-do your two BPDs get aggressive with the passing and turn the ball over at times? You want to play through them but using BPDs will mean they try to make riskier passes. Which will mean they might be popping the ball forward to the wingers & Ozil at times, and turning the ball over. Not a certainty but something I'd be watching for.

Thanks for your response!

Whenever I get the stupid idea to create my own tactic I always watch the games in comprehensive mode, the problem is not necessarily that I don't watch but what I'm seeing doesn't tell me anything about what I should do. So my fundamental problem is that I can't convert the issues I see on the pitch to instructions, mentalities, shape and formations.

Actually the negative regarding Long shots is that we haven't scored from any of the 32 shots outside the penalty area. This is less than half of the total shots we have produced in that same period of time. Is that still a lot? Not sure whats good here, but when I've watched I haven't seen a lot of long shots, not more than expected against parking the bus kinda teams. Goals are conceded mainly from individual errors, we have only conceded 9 in the league. So hard to identify much there I think.

Wingers is just the latest desperate attempt at getting something from my wingers, as IFs both Salah and Mané were disasters, mostly just running straight into the defence or getting into awkward and harmless positions. So I tried something else (didn't work obviously).

Corners and crosses are the main assist types.

Yes, the choice of BPDs was something I was far from sure about and I should probably change one of the roles to a normal CD. Rugani is a great BPD but Matip and Lovren doesn't really cut it.

 

[Karnack]

Might be a strange thing about this save as well.

I'm 10th after 14 games with 24 points. Stoke is in the lead with 30, Newcastle second with 29, then Chelsea at 29, Southampton at 28.

It might be a very weird PL-season? 

[Chief Scout]

The IF's on FM 18 just don't work as they should. Try Knap's last versions of GOODBYE 343 (away or against better opponent) or WOF 343 (home). The 3 strikers work as if they were 2 IF or better yet 2 Wingers and BBM comes front as if he was an AM. Great tactics. Very enjoyable.

[Karnack]

8 minutes ago, Chief Scout said:

The IF's on FM 18 just don't work as they should. Try Knap's last versions of GOODBYE 343 (away or against better opponent) or WOF 343 (home). The 3 strikers work as if they were 2 IF or better yet 2 Wingers and BBM comes front as if he was an AM. Great tactics. Very enjoyable.

They seem to waste a lot of possession. Constantly making poor runs. I've played Knap tactics a lot and I like them, but once in a while I get tired of tactics that just steamroll everything so I try to create my own. With frustration being the end result every time

[Bigpapa42]

Cleon's Thread on the Inside Forward could be helpful.

Breaking things down doesn't require a PhD in football. You just have a to watch and analyze. So when you have a nice attacking sequence that ends in a player having a hopeless pop from outside the box, stop and look at when they make that decision. 2D is great for this as its one of the best ways to watch the movement on and off the ball, as well as the opposition. So when that player makes that decision, what are other options were there? And if there were no other options, why not? Where would I have wanted my players to be instead?

If the issue is packed boxes, you need to find a way to force the opposition out of their shell. Moments of brilliance or defensive mistakes will unlock it sometimes, but not consistently. So much like top managers have to do in reality, you need to find a way to do it. I often find going less aggressive - switching Attack to Support, dropping back a Mentality or a defensive line level - can work quite well. Not always, but its better than pouring more men forward and falling more into their trap.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Chief Scout said:

The IF's on FM 18 just don't work as they should.

Inside Forwards are ok.  Have a read of the article @Bigpapa42 linked above to find out more .

[jameseccross]

Where's coutinho?  That's a key issue!

I agree with the above on the wingers to inside forwards, it took me a while to get the best out of Salah and Mane there but it worked after a couple of months.  I first started by playing them on the sides you have them as opposite sides wasn't working - found they crossed for each other like that but from narrower positions and I got some tap ins.  I then switched to opposite sides and they got more from cutting inside when playing better, and also created space for my full backs to overlap.  I also use a f9 up top, which helps create space for the IFs to move into.

I have had the issue with this sort of shape where I get ripped apart by teams with pacy wingers countering, usually away to united or chelsea but stoke too even.  3 at the back does help with these games.

You may get better results from better CMs - I train Coutinho to play there usually and aim to ditch Hendo after a year, he gets decent ratings but not sure why as he just isn't very good.  If you can make it to season 2, then Keita will be quality in the role you're trying to get Hendo to do.

[summatsupeer]

1. Your very high and wide.  WB-A & WB-S stay wide and push forward.  W-A tries to run behind d-line and stay wide.  W-S will be deeper but will then run high and wide.  Not much variety with so many players told to dribble+cross and not much depth to provide cover, simple recycling option etc.
2. Your forward pair have a lot of freedom.  Whilst all your outside players stay wide your front pair can leave there assigned position, which can be good to overload a different area but might mean you lack presence in the area they leave.  A TREQ is more than just "creating tons of nice killer balls",  he goes where he likes which could be a goal threat, he runs with it, works channels, whatever he likes.
3. Just because you have DMs doesn't make it better defensively, it just means they defend deeper.  You'll still have the old "how to fit a #10" into your tactic issue, which for me relies on the wide players doing a job defensively in a 4411 structure rather than 4231.  It also needs the central midfield pair to be good defensively, mobile and hard working with one being more of a defensive specialist who can break up attacks, for example a Kante or Wanyama.
4. Less of an issue but not sure why you've done it is the 2x BPD + Play Out of Defence.  On one hand your telling them to try and play defence splitting passes but on the other telling them to play short passes to midfield, what do you actually want them to do?  From your outline it sounds like you want them to sometimes play risky passes and sometimes play through midfield, so why not just use normal defenders?  On Control mentality there passing is shorter/mixed and they sometimes play risky passes, that sounds more like what you described.
5. For me Firmino is a good player but not the star, yet your asking him to do a lot of risky things and move around a lot.  I'd use him to support (not necessarily the support duty) the stars and do what they need. This could be as a DF-S, working hard and keeping it simple.  It could be a AF-A keeping the opponents defence occupied.  It could be a DLF-S linking play.  Just a few examples, there's other options of course, it just depends what is needed.

[Karnack]

1 hour ago, jameseccross said:

Where's coutinho?  That's a key issue!

I agree with the above on the wingers to inside forwards, it took me a while to get the best out of Salah and Mane there but it worked after a couple of months.  I first started by playing them on the sides you have them as opposite sides wasn't working - found they crossed for each other like that but from narrower positions and I got some tap ins.  I then switched to opposite sides and they got more from cutting inside when playing better, and also created space for my full backs to overlap.  I also use a f9 up top, which helps create space for the IFs to move into.

I have had the issue with this sort of shape where I get ripped apart by teams with pacy wingers countering, usually away to united or chelsea but stoke too even.  3 at the back does help with these games.

You may get better results from better CMs - I train Coutinho to play there usually and aim to ditch Hendo after a year, he gets decent ratings but not sure why as he just isn't very good.  If you can make it to season 2, then Keita will be quality in the role you're trying to get Hendo to do.

Haha, 6 months out in pre-season, hence the buy of Özil.

I've made some changes and started seeing some improvements from Salah when I put him as an IF even on the left side. Will either get a better striker or try to use Firmino in another role as well. Seems like a good idea!

Hopefully I can make it until the summer, had a good result against Chelsea and Leicester so I moved up a bit and might make it until January at least.

32 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

1. Your very high and wide.  WB-A & WB-S stay wide and push forward.  W-A tries to run behind d-line and stay wide.  W-S will be deeper but will then run high and wide.  Not much variety with so many players told to dribble+cross and not much depth to provide cover, simple recycling option etc.
2. Your forward pair have a lot of freedom.  Whilst all your outside players stay wide your front pair can leave there assigned position, which can be good to overload a different area but might mean you lack presence in the area they leave.  A TREQ is more than just "creating tons of nice killer balls",  he goes where he likes which could be a goal threat, he runs with it, works channels, whatever he likes.
3. Just because you have DMs doesn't make it better defensively, it just means they defend deeper.  You'll still have the old "how to fit a #10" into your tactic issue, which for me relies on the wide players doing a job defensively in a 4411 structure rather than 4231.  It also needs the central midfield pair to be good defensively, mobile and hard working with one being more of a defensive specialist who can break up attacks, for example a Kante or Wanyama.
4. Less of an issue but not sure why you've done it is the 2x BPD + Play Out of Defence.  On one hand your telling them to try and play defence splitting passes but on the other telling them to play short passes to midfield, what do you actually want them to do?  From your outline it sounds like you want them to sometimes play risky passes and sometimes play through midfield, so why not just use normal defenders?  On Control mentality there passing is shorter/mixed and they sometimes play risky passes, that sounds more like what you described.
5. For me Firmino is a good player but not the star, yet your asking him to do a lot of risky things and move around a lot.  I'd use him to support (not necessarily the support duty) the stars and do what they need. This could be as a DF-S, working hard and keeping it simple.  It could be a AF-A keeping the opponents defence occupied.  It could be a DLF-S linking play.  Just a few examples, there's other options of course, it just depends what is needed.

1. I only use one winger now and an IF on the left and it has been looking better.
2. I started using him as an Enganche but nothing happened from the AMC-role. When I switched to a treq I saw some positive movements, but an AP might be the next thing I try.
3. The plan is too get a better DM in as soon as possible. I will probably sell Firmino as he isn't the kind of player I want in the long run, that should fund a Kante-type DM. Keita will be my Segundo Volante once he arrives.
4. Yes, good point and I have changed one CB to an ordinariy CD. Play out of defence is mainly to avoid the worst "hoof the ball"-moments but maybe thats incorrect thinking on my part. Will do as you suggest and change both to CDs.
5. I played him as a DLF-A at first and also tried him as an AF but he just can't perform. My next test will be as a DF and trying to get my IF to be the main goal scorer instead. Dumb idea?

[summatsupeer]

Hoof ball requires more direct passing length, check the player instructions to see it.  And whatever you tell them to do, if the player lakes the attributes such as composure he will put his foot through it anyway.

I feel like your looking at the roles in isolation. Just because that player isn't doing well doesn't mean it's his role/duty that's the issue. Its the combinations that you need to look at. Who do you think should be the main goal scorer currently and how do you see your team creating for him? Inside Forward as main scorer is a fine plan, but you need to think about it more than "x scores and y creates".  Where players move and how the ball moves will affect how you use and create space.

[crusadertsar]

I agree Rechonist makes an amazing tactic that works with any team. Make sure to keep praising everyone to keep morale always at perfect and use good set piece routines is the trick though 

[Karnack]

Just wanna say thank you to all who gave feedback and advice! I've now come to the conclusion that I don't have the patience or the intelligence to put together something thats even remotely decent so instead of ripping my own hair I'm simply gonna give up and go back to downloaded tactics!

Sorry for wasting your time.

[warlock]

1 hour ago, Karnack said:

instead of ripping my own hair I'm simply gonna give up and go back to downloaded tactics!

There's no shame in it . I long ago came to the realisation that I can't master the Tactics Creator. But at the same time, I avoid exploit tactics or those where the author can't explain how and why the tactic works. At least that way, I think I can understand it sufficiently to make changes when it starts to struggle. Doesn't guarantee success but, for me, it makes for an enjoyable game.