Jumping stat floor

[Viking]

First of all, this is in no way an attack on the researchers. I know how much work and time they spend on their job, and they are doing it great. But, unfortunately, the fact that the Jumping reach stat is height plus leap is sometimes missed, and this leaves us with weird things like 190 cm tall players having a jumping stat of 7 or lower. I therefore suggest a Jumping stat floor. IIRC a 180 cm tall player would have a Jumping reach of (at least) 10. I'm guessing there are similar guidelines for all heights, and thus it should be a pretty easy task. All Jumping reach values lower than the player height floor is automatically set to the guideline value. Values higher than the player height floor would ofcourse be accepted.

 

I suppose I am pretty alone thinking this is a big deal, but it really bothers me when tall players have unrealistic low Jumping reach stats. It would mean they are running around on the pitch on their knees or crouching.

 

[BruceyNTFC]

The jumping stat already takes that into account. It's about how much a player can jump off the ground, not the height they reach. 

[Cougar2010]

On 01/12/2016 at 17:31, Viking said:

First of all, this is in no way an attack on the researchers. I know how much work and time they spend on their job, and they are doing it great. But, unfortunately, the fact that the Jumping reach stat is height plus leap is sometimes missed, and this leaves us with weird things like 190 cm tall players having a jumping stat of 7 or lower. I therefore suggest a Jumping stat floor. IIRC a 180 cm tall player would have a Jumping reach of (at least) 10. I'm guessing there are similar guidelines for all heights, and thus it should be a pretty easy task. All Jumping reach values lower than the player height floor is automatically set to the guideline value. Values higher than the player height floor would ofcourse be accepted.

 

I suppose I am pretty alone thinking this is a big deal, but it really bothers me when tall players have unrealistic low Jumping reach stats. It would mean they are running around on the pitch on their knees or crouching.

 

A stat floor based on height already exists I believe.

I'm not sure what the actual floor is for each height but any player that looks wrong should be reported in the data forum.

I found one that I did report and I believe it was a simple mistype when entering the data.

[Cougar2010]

54 minutes ago, BruceyNTFC said:

The jumping stat already takes that into account. It's about how much a player can jump off the ground, not the height they reach. 

Thats a poor post by a researcher

Not sure if its badly worded or you have a misunderstanding of what the jumping attribute represents.

Jumping has always been defined as how high a player can get his head off the ground which takes into account both his height & "leaping ability"

[santy001]

I think this is the wrong solution to a valid problem. There should be a logic check built into the researcher tools with a prompt, because there are niche situations where it being set lower can be right. If I'm remembering rightly, the situation is that if a players jumping reach is less than his height then his height is used. 

A player like Marko Arnautovic (he has improved this element a fair bit this season thus far) had been very reluctant to contest aerially despite being a tall player. It pretty much always resulted in him trying to back off a couple of paces and try to bring the ball down rather than winning any kind of header against a defender. In some cases it may be right, but obviously its one very easy for researchers to miss if say they type 71 instead of 17 for a player. 

[BruceyNTFC]

3 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Thats a poor post by a researcher

Not sure if its badly worded or you have a misunderstanding of what the jumping attribute represents.

Jumping has always been defined as how high a player can get his head off the ground which takes into account both his height & "leaping ability"

Yeah sorry, poorly worded I seem to have tried to explain myself backwards and contradicted myself in the same sentence which is some feat!  Meant to say we take height into consideration when creating the jumping stat, in that it shouldn't create the idea of people crouching as mentioned, but ended up somehow contradicting myself. What a plum I am.

[Viking]

To be honest, I don't care how this problem is addressed, but I'd very much appreciate if SI came up with some sort of solution. A logic check built into the researcher tools would be just as good, however one avantage with my solution is that it would also work with regens and players with random height and jumping stat.

[santy001]

2 hours ago, Viking said:

To be honest, I don't care how this problem is addressed, but I'd very much appreciate if SI came up with some sort of solution. A logic check built into the researcher tools would be just as good, however one avantage with my solution is that it would also work with regens and players with random height and jumping stat.

If its affecting regens, then I'd suggest logging it as a bug. It should be far less likely to happen with them and it may be an issue that no one is currently aware of.

[Viking]

18 hours ago, santy001 said:

If its affecting regens, then I'd suggest logging it as a bug. It should be far less likely to happen with them and it may be an issue that no one is currently aware of.

Well, In previous versions of FM there was no correlation between height and jumping reach, but I haven't played FM17 long enough to stumble upon any regens yet.

[westy8chimp]

On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:23, Cougar2010 said:

Jumping has always been defined as how high a player can get his head off the ground which takes into account both his height & "leaping ability"

in line with Santys example of Arnautovic .. maybe this is the issue. Jumping attribute should be about their ability to jump off the ground. Someone 6ft plus who doesn't leave the ground at all shouldn't have a high jumping attribute.

Not that it particularly matters, but it makes it harder to distinguish those who have a great leap ... like the Tim Cahill's of the world. I'd rather see him with a 20 and Arnautovic with a 0 than both a 13 because they end up the same height at 6'2.

it would then be up to the user to look at height as well as jumping and heading attribute to make an informed decision ... whether it be a CB signing... or who to have attacking the ball from deep on corner etc.

or remove the stat altogether and incorporate it in the heading attribute (how can you have heading 20 if you cant jump ... or are a bottle job)... by evaluating a player based on; timing, desire, jumping, directing, leverage...

Quite often smaller players make better aerial threats. I never saw Gareth Ainsworth miss a header. told him this when i spoke to him recently in a pub in Wokingham about his QPR days and he says it wasn't that he could jump higher... it was that he always wanted it more.

[Foss]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

in line with Santys example of Arnautovic .. maybe this is the issue. Jumping attribute should be about their ability to jump off the ground. Someone 6ft plus who doesn't leave the ground at all shouldn't have a high jumping attribute.

Not that it particularly matters, but it makes it harder to distinguish those who have a great leap ... like the Tim Cahill's of the world. I'd rather see him with a 20 and Arnautovic with a 0 than both a 13 because they end up the same height at 6'2.

it would then be up to the user to look at height as well as jumping and heading attribute to make an informed decision ... whether it be a CB signing... or who to have attacking the ball from deep on corner etc.

or remove the stat altogether and incorporate it in the heading attribute (how can you have heading 20 if you cant jump ... or are a bottle job)... by evaluating a player based on; timing, desire, jumping, directing, leverage...

Quite often smaller players make better aerial threats. I never saw Gareth Ainsworth miss a header. told him this when i spoke to him recently in a pub in Wokingham about his QPR days and he says it wasn't that he could jump higher... it was that he always wanted it more.

But it's not the jumping attribute, it's jumping reach. Combining heading and jumping reach would not make much sense as one does not even need to jump to be able to head the ball well.
The criteria you mention for evaluating aerial ability are already incorporated in the game as attributes like anticipation, bravery, and strength all play a part in the match engine in determining who connects with or wins headers. And yes, sometimes shorter players are better aerial threats but let's not exaggerate.

[Cougar2010]

2 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

or remove the stat altogether and incorporate it in the heading attribute (how can you have heading 20 if you cant jump ... or are a bottle job)... by evaluating a player based on; timing, desire, jumping, directing, leverage...

Heading is how accurately you can head the ball in the direction you want once you get your head to it.

It is the same as finishing is for your feet when you take a shot or passing when making a pass.

[Cougar2010]

3 hours ago, Viking said:

Well, In previous versions of FM there was no correlation between height and jumping reach, but I haven't played FM17 long enough to stumble upon any regens yet.

As far as I'm aware there has been a correlation between the two for many, many years.

[Viking]

20 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

As far as I'm aware there has been a correlation between the two for many, many years.

I might be wrong, but that's not how I remember it. I found this in the "Funny names thread":

189 cm and 10 for Jumping reach.

[Cougar2010]

189cm = what 6'4" hardly that high in the air, 10 seems fairly reasonable for a tall player who can't get far off the ground.

I don't know what the minimum is for a 189cm player but 10 must be fairly close.  I doubt you will find a 189cm player with less than say 8?

[Viking]

I think I read somewhere that 180 cm is a minimum 10. 

[Foss]

A player that's 180 centimeters tall with a poor leap would be 8 according to the guidelines.

[Viking]

I see. I guess remember wrong and the regens work as supposed. But I know for sure players with random height and stats used to not have a correaltion between the jumping stat and their height. And the main problem in the tread still remains.

[westy8chimp]

yep I agree currently it does it using anticipation, bravery etc... but it's quite a convoluted way of deciding who can head well or not... especially as the attributes rarely tie up because they are all interlinked with other abilities. i.e. anticipation would also come into play for a poacher timing a run.. or timing a volley... but IRL you can be terrible at both of those and still be an excellent headererererer of the ball. I'd rather researchers decide how good a player is at heading .. incorporating all of it ... the accuracy, % headers won ... and build that into one attribute 'heading'

[Foss]

Winning headers and heading the ball are two different things. For example, some players are good at winning headers because of their reach and ability to out-muscle their opposing number, yet are poor at clearing the ball with their head once they connect with it. If there was only one attribute to deal with aerial ability, such players could not be represented properly by researchers.

[Neil Brock]

Reviewed so locked.