Sell out sports interactive

[Amaroq]

Moaner, you can talk all you want about the "majority on the forum", but

a.) Not all of us were participating in that discussion, because discussions of 3D are extremely repetitive and seemed to spring up every 2 months or so, and

b.) We-the-forum-community are not the average FM purchasers. We're the hardcore fan, not the close-to-a-million people who buy the game every year.

Honestly, I fail to see how anybody - Moaner included - can deny that 3-D has always been the direction that the series was going to trend towards.

When you look at the development of sports computer games as a whole, improved graphics have always been a part of the general progression of games in each sport.

Take a look at American football for an example: the very first American-football "twitch" game that I played, each player was a five-pixel diamond, and the ball was an additional pixel (or two?). Movement was straight, cardinal directions: up, down, left, and right, all at one speed. There were only five players on the pitch, instead of eleven. There were no "plays" to call. Sound was generic and clearly speaker-generated.

In 1985, the best football game had eleven players on a pitch, and a top-down, 2-D view with sprite "X"s and "O"s. Playcalling was very detailed, and the games were intricately modeled for the ideal "realistic" results.

By 1988, the original John Madden football launched, with: clear "kits" for each club, eleven players on the pitch, different colored skin to represent players of African descent and players of Eurasian decent, "plays" to call for each down, and the graphics were 2-D sprites shown in an isometric, faux-3D view. Movement was in eight directions. Sounds were canned recordings of crowd noise and whistles. The stadiums were generic. The animations were limited, but there was a good enough number of them that they didn't feel too repetitive. There were still flaws: the players were generic, interchangable sprites. The game lacked the NFL license, so the names were all fake - the QB of the "San Francisco" franchise was "Joe Idaho".

By 2008, you had a full 3-D engine, with replays that allow you to place the camera anyplace in the 3-D space of the stadium. The game has the NFL license, so all the correct players, teams, and stadiums are included. Each stadium is individually modeled and recognizable. The sounds include many different crowd noises, ambients, and of course, John Madden himself giving play-by-play. The kits are very detailed and realistic, including all the minor piping, player numbers, and the last name stitched on the back of the kit. The players themselves are individually recognizable inside their helmet by facial features, and remain realistic in appearance even on a fairly tight zoom. The animations are excellent, with many of the player-to-player tackles standing up visually even to a pause-in-replay-and-zoom-around-them camera technology. They don't feel noticeably repetitive.

In that respect, FM'07 was equivalent to 1985 in American football: almost 25 years behind the times!

How could anybody not look at it and imagine, dream .. of what it would be like with a true 3-D engine .. with face-modeling technology not merely addressing the differences between different racial backgrounds, but allowing you to zoom in and tell Ronaldo from Ronaldinho by their smile!

In that respect, I think this is as natural as the progression from "Guitar Hero" to "Rock Band" has been: how could anybody not play Guitar Hero and think .. "Oh, dude, we should totally link this up with Karaoke Revolution and Taiko Drum, and we'd have a kick-*** rock band!"? I think every single person I ever talked to about Guitar Hero had that same idea.

This is no different.

Any chance of not feeding the troll anymore?

Agreed - will not respond in this thread, may it die in peace.

[Moaner]

People are far more likely to respond when they feel negatively about something as when they feel positive. This poll stands a good chance of being skewed in that direction. A good number of those who approve or don't care would not have responded in comparison with those against it.

i don't agree with that. I think once someone has read the question they vote, whether thier answer be a yes or a no. People would also feel inclined to vote "yes" because they think SI would take notice if the results showed a majority pro-3-D engine vote.....however we have quickly learnt SI rejects such feedback and its fans as a whole!!!!!!

[Frazza Pee]

Oh well I hope Miles knows I'm his biggest fan! well done, you've made a great game- you've made millions selling it....and now you've blown off your own fans.

How the hell has he blown off his own fans by adding a 3D ME? You are an idiot tbh.

[Ackter]

Yeah, like he's going to actually read that Amaroq.

[Moaner]

Are you really 20?

i dont know, i may have aged a year or two since the beginning of this thread.

[outlaw640]

I am looking forward to it because it will make attended matches more fun to watch. Might start to do it more as england manager!

[therubberducky]

1) Miles said theyd been working on this for years. Its not been put in at the last minute.1) WHO IS MILES? and 2) It worries me that "it's only been put in at the last minute" because this sounds as if it were rushed and all sorts of prolems arise when things are rushed, as we all know

2) Its optional whtehter you use it or not. Please, please read at least SOME of my posts

Miles is the MD, the guy in the video.

As for point (2) i suggest you follow your own advice and "please please read my post". I said it apparently was NOT added in at the last minute, NOT rushed, but developed over a few years.

And i get your posts, your gripe is that SI arent listening to the masses. As long as the 3-D visualizatoin doesnt effect the game, ie doesnt mean that theyve neglected fixes and it FM09 is as buggy as FM08, i dont see your problem. Perhaps you should wait for the demo, and then come back with an " i told you so post." For the record i didnt want to see 3-D in this game, but im willing to give it a chance, and as long as this isnt another buggy version ill hold that view. If this game is buggy i dont tihnk id be the only one who wasnt happy with the addition of 3-D.

[Alurny]

Moaner, you can talk all you want about the "majority on the forum", but

a.) Not all of us were participating in that discussion, because discussions of 3D are extremely repetitive and seemed to spring up every 2 months or so, and

b.) We-the-forum-community are not the average FM purchasers. We're the hardcore fan, not the close-to-a-million people who buy the game every year.

Honestly, I fail to see how anybody - Moaner included - can deny that 3-D has always been the direction that the series was going to trend towards.

When you look at the development of sports computer games as a whole, improved graphics have always been a part of the general progression of games in each sport.

Take a look at American football for an example: the very first American-football "twitch" game that I played, each player was a five-pixel diamond, and the ball was an additional pixel (or two?). Movement was straight, cardinal directions: up, down, left, and right, all at one speed. There were only five players on the pitch, instead of eleven. There were no "plays" to call. Sound was generic and clearly speaker-generated.

In 1985, the best football game had eleven players on a pitch, and a top-down, 2-D view with sprite "X"s and "O"s. Playcalling was very detailed, and the games were intricately modeled for the ideal "realistic" results.

By 1988, the original John Madden football launched, with: clear "kits" for each club, eleven players on the pitch, different colored skin to represent players of African descent and players of Eurasian decent, "plays" to call for each down, and the graphics were 2-D sprites shown in an isometric, faux-3D view. Movement was in eight directions. Sounds were canned recordings of crowd noise and whistles. The stadiums were generic. The animations were limited, but there was a good enough number of them that they didn't feel too repetitive. There were still flaws: the players were generic, interchangable sprites. The game lacked the NFL license, so the names were all fake - the QB of the "San Francisco" franchise was "Joe Idaho".

By 2008, you had a full 3-D engine, with replays that allow you to place the camera anyplace in the 3-D space of the stadium. The game has the NFL license, so all the correct players, teams, and stadiums are included. Each stadium is individually modeled and recognizable. The sounds include many different crowd noises, ambients, and of course, John Madden himself giving play-by-play. The kits are very detailed and realistic, including all the minor piping, player numbers, and the last name stitched on the back of the kit. The players themselves are individually recognizable inside their helmet by facial features, and remain realistic in appearance even on a fairly tight zoom. The animations are excellent, with many of the player-to-player tackles standing up visually even to a pause-in-replay-and-zoom-around-them camera technology. They don't feel noticeably repetitive.

In that respect, FM'07 was equivalent to 1985 in American football: almost 25 years behind the times!

How could anybody not look at it and imagine, dream .. of what it would be like with a true 3-D engine .. with face-modeling technology not merely addressing the differences between different racial backgrounds, but allowing you to zoom in and tell Ronaldo from Ronaldinho by their smile!

In that respect, I think this is as natural as the progression from "Guitar Hero" to "Rock Band" has been: how could anybody not play Guitar Hero and think .. "Oh, dude, we should totally link this up with Karaoke Revolution and Taiko Drum, and we'd have a kick-*** rock band!"? I think every single person I ever talked to about Guitar Hero had that same idea.

This is no different.

just in-case you miss it moaner

[Bongo-Bongo]

i wasn't at about 18:30 (gmt), just before the announcment was made and the general feeling on this forum was still pretty much against the 3-D match engine.........

.......read back through the threads and see for yourself(otherwise i might have to start copying and pasting and quoting!)

No, the general feeling was that if technology permitted then people would welcome 3D graphics, but only when it was possible, and in the mean time, sticking to 2D was a much better option. There's a massive difference, though I'm not sure you seem to understand this.

[Moaner]

How the hell has he blown off his own fans by adding a 3D ME? You are an idiot tbh.

right, let me go again, he has "blown us off" by disregarding the feedback we gave him. As simple as that mate.

[Mike7077]

i don't agree with that. I think once someone has read the question they vote, whether thier answer be a yes or a no. People would also feel inclined to vote "yes" because they think SI would take notice if the results showed a majority pro-3-D engine vote.....however we have quickly learnt SI rejects such feedback and its fans as a whole!!!!!!

Firstly, it is an established fact that the dissatisfied, disgruntled and disaffected are more likely to respond than the happy. That's why it takes large firms to carry out polls. Careful groundwork is needed to make sure they can be as truly representative as possible. Any professional pollster would laugh at the polls on this forum. They're the poll equivalent of backing up a phd thesis with Wikipedia articles as your evidence. Secondly, you've missed my point anyway. It's not about what someone will say once they've read the question. Chances are, those that respond will be honest. What it's about is the likelihood of people to respond. And, as with most polls, that is skewed in favour of the likes of yourself.

[Frazza Pee]

right, let me go again, he has "blown us off" by disregarding the feedback we gave him. As simple as that mate.

How has he disregarded the feedback? If you look closely the majority of people like the 3D ME. BTW give it up, you're fighting a losing battle.

[Moaner]

just in-case you miss it moaner

i scim-read....got to "american football", and then stopped. can you give me a few key quotes or were there none in there?

[Neji]

right, let me go again, he has "blown us off" by disregarding the feedback we gave him. As simple as that mate.

No he hasn't. The majority (which you love so much) said they would like 3D when the technology is avaiable, SI feel it is available.

[Alurny]

right, let me go again, he has "blown us off" by disregarding the feedback we gave him. As simple as that mate.

Has he bugger. The point has been said 100's of times to you already, you are being very selective with data interpretation.

I'm not your mate. But I'd make you moan.

[Frankie 7]

Very harsh indeed. The games hasn't even been released yet and you comment on some screenshots & the video. Wait to play the game then if you dont like it, Complain away. I am sure everyone will wait until they have the game and played it a while before giving feedback.

[Walcott\'s Wonderkids]

i don't agree with that. I think once someone has read the question they vote, whether thier answer be a yes or a no. People would also feel inclined to vote "yes" because they think SI would take notice if the results showed a majority pro-3-D engine vote.....however we have quickly learnt SI rejects such feedback and its fans as a whole!!!!!!

Well I may be being pedantic here, but FM08 sold about 1 million copies. Now if you can show me which poll indicates over 500,000 people not wanting it in the game then I will be convinced by your argument.

Just because a few dozen of people said that they didn't really want it on this forum, doesn't mean that the vast majority of the FM userbase didn't want it.

As was said earlier, there are plenty of casual FM gamers who don't frequent these forums.

For my two pence, I was fairly neutral about a 3D ME and after seeing the screenshots I'm still fairly neutral. If FM implement it well into the game then it will be a fantastic addition, if not then no doubt people will grumble as per.

[Mike7077]

Again, the 2D engine will still be there. So I would say that the large amounts of people who wanted it to stay are getting what they want, whilst an important development that, despite what Moaner says, a lot of us have said we would want if it was implemented well, is also taking place.

[Moaner]

How has he disregarded the feedback? If you look closely the majority of people like the 3D ME.

the poll asking the question "do you think that a 3-D graphics match engine should be added to one of the upcoming games?" says differently.

oh and when you finish reading that poll, take a look at some of the threads regarding 3-D from the past few weeks.

[Ackter]

Just for the record, the amount of people who voted no in that poll is roughly 0.0003% of the amount of people who buy FM.

[therubberducky]

right, let me go again, he has "blown us off" by disregarding the feedback we gave him. As simple as that mate.

You only joined two weeks ago. How exactly do you know what sort of feedback there has been?

[Kees04]

Moaner, one question, what about the results from the second poll??

The one with the following question;

Do you think that once the technology is sufficiently sophisticated a 3-D match engine should be added to the FM series?

The one with the following results;

59.05% - Yes - 284 respondents

32.22% - No - 155 respondents

8.73% - Don't Know - 42 respondents

Now from listening to the videos Miles clearly stated that they believe the technology is advanced enough to use this technology.

Or are you just ignoring this poll??

[Mike7077]

The fact is we're all arguing with a guy who has a history of nonsensical and silly posts. I tend to think, in the grand scheme of things and given the crap that goes on in the world, that's not such a big deal. But it does make me question how worth arguing with he is.

[Moaner]

can i just say.....I haven't actually seen the 3-D images where are they?????? I've only seen a 2 sec video clip. (and by the way even if i love the new engine it does not respite the fact SI have blown us off and other parts of the game will suffer of a result of the inclusion of 3-D)

[Amaroq]

right, let me go again, he has "blown us off" by disregarding the feedback we gave him. As simple as that mate.

i scim-read....got to "american football", and then stopped. can you give me a few key quotes or were there none in there?

Excellent.

In back-to-back posts, Mr. Moaner has complained about SI disregarding feedback, and then indicated that he personally disregards feedback.

Need we continue this discussion?

[Frazza Pee]

the poll asking the question "do you think that a 3-D graphics match engine should be added to one of the upcoming games?" says differently.

oh and when you finish reading that poll, take a look at some of the threads regarding 3-D from the past few weeks.

Look at the announcement thread. The majority of the people in there are for it. When you're finished reading that thread, apologise and shut up.

[andyhudd]

the poll asking the question "do you think that a 3-D graphics match engine should be added to one of the upcoming games?" says differently.

oh and when you finish reading that poll, take a look at some of the threads regarding 3-D from the past few weeks.

And then take a look at the poll now, that people have seen a rough idea of what 3D will look like ... more specific than the wide, open "3D match engine" statement that was being voted on before.

You are not the majority on this forum. The majority on this forum are the majority on this forum!

You're trying to speak for "most" of the Football Manager fans on this forum ... and getting very little support! Take the hint - your views are now in the minority!

[Moaner]

You only joined two weeks ago. How exactly do you know what sort of feedback there has been?

because non-members can read what they like silly billy.

[Mike7077]

can i just say.....I haven't actually seen the 3-D images where are they?????? I've only seen a 2 sec video clip. (and by the way even if i love the new engine it does not respite the fact SI have blown us off and other parts of the game will suffer of a result of the inclusion of 3-D)

2D engine staying. Not blown off. Simple.

[JonPaulWild]

People who want a 3D engine have one, and people who want a 2d engine have one also. Win win on both sides.

I don't see the problem?

I hated the inclusion of face gen players or whatever it was called, but didn't moan and just simply switched it off in the options area. People who liked it enjoyed it and people who didn't didn't use it.

Simple, or are you just a rival that's angry due to SI having what appears to be a superior product.

[Frazza Pee]

can i just say.....I haven't actually seen the 3-D images where are they?????? I've only seen a 2 sec video clip. (and by the way even if i love the new engine it does not respite the fact SI have blown us off and other parts of the game will suffer of a result of the inclusion of 3-D)

Are you having me on? Post boosting son of a

[outlaw640]

can i just say.....I haven't actually seen the 3-D images where are they?????? I've only seen a 2 sec video clip. (and by the way even if i love the new engine it does not respite the fact SI have blown us off and other parts of the game will suffer of a result of the inclusion of 3-D)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=77URmWUc-1k

[Neji]

Moaner, one question, what about the results from the second poll??

Don't be ridiculous, that would blow his whole arguement out of the water.

[therubberducky]

because non-members can read what they like silly billy.

Fair enough. I see you ignored my other post, though.

[Moaner]

You're trying to speak for "most" of the Football Manager fans on this forum ... and getting very little support! Take the hint - your views are now in the minority!

Hey i didnt sit there and draw that pie-chart, it was a result of research into the views of a 3-D match engine....i am part of that majority that said "NO" to 3-D.

[Mike7077]

because non-members can read what they like silly billy.

You're the 'silly billy' who is being shot down at every turn and yet keeping this farce up. Will you explain to me how we've blown off?! The 2D engine is staying. Board confidence is being revamped. The transfer market is being completely reworked. The assistant manager is being made useful. Personally, I feel like Miles has been inside my head!

[Svenc]

For those who wanted 3D in order to analyse the game better you WILL be disappointed. Fouls, headers, penalties, everything will be the same as the 2D match graphics - generic. Unless every player has been individually coded you simply cannot get the detail you want.

True. I doubt that SI are using that advanced technology quite yet, but there is 3D tech were proper behaviour of a model is calculated on the fly in really sophisticated kind of ways, just as well as the corresponding animations. And it's being used in games, too.

That said, this thread is ridiculous, but that's the internet for you.

[Alurny]

Just LOCK THIS please!

[Moaner]

Don't be ridiculous, that would blow his whole arguement out of the water.

already answered it.

[Kees04]

Don't be ridiculous, that would blow his whole arguement out of the water.

Exactly, until he has the balls to answer this question he will continue to be ridiculed by all

[Jaeren]

i dont know whats the big deal theres 3d match engine which is FANTASTIC, or a 2d match engine if you like it that way.

and also they've loads of other cool changes.

it's harsh to say si are a sell out, there just trying to make the game better, which personally i think they have.

[Neji]

already answered it.

Where?

......

[Kees04]

already answered it.

Please re-answer it in response to my post then?

[Alurny]

Moaner's +1 thread.

[Moaner]

True. I doubt that SI are using that advanced technology quite yet, but there is 3D tech were proper behaviour of a model is calculated on the fly in really sophisticated kind of ways, just as well as the corresponding animations. And it's being used in games, too.

arrrr, so we don't have that technology for the 3-D to run as smooth as we think it might.....now you tell us!

[McDoul]

Oh man this thread is making me rage just by reading moaner's posts. General Discussion forum = Blood Pressure Raise guaranteed or your money back

You should see this place in the first 4 months after release.... it's unbelievable.

Sadly I care not for 3D, but am equally excited by it. It remains to be seen whether these players look like ill rendered bambi's-on-ice with nasty pro evo-esque kits that still look like premier manager '98 or whether it's a glorious high resolution representation with the drag backs and step overs of FIFA 2003 and onwards.

I'll happily await the demo tho, there's plenty of other improvements to look forward to. The 3D after all is only a visualisation of that which is already happening in 2D so hopefully will not have an adverse effect on the match engine.

As for the resident and aptly named 'moaner' he's typical of the anti-SI idiots that have beseiged GD for the last 18 months, and exactly the kind of person I imagine Miles was digging at in his reference to 'people actually giving constructive feedback' during the video.

[Neji]

Moaner's +1 thread.

+1? More like +500!

[Ackter]

Haven't had a numpty of this standing for many, many months.

I, for one, am rather enjoying this splendid attempt to fill that gap.

[Moaner]

Moaner's +1 thread.

what does that mean please?

[Moaner]

Haven't had a numpty of this standing for many, many months.

I, for one, am rather enjoying this splendid attempt to fill that gap.

"Ohhhhh, he has a different opinion to me....he must be a numpty? Why isn't he brown-nosing SI like me?"