Official The Netherlands Thread ; the team with no decent Left back

[Mark Snellink]

Roaring at how unbelievably biased DJ is. Guessing he's an Ajax fan?

Huntelaar missed the easiest chance of the lot against Denmark. RvP had a poor tournament, (although personally I thought he had a good game against Denmark considering he was used a targetman) You can forgive RvP missing chances as he adds so much more to the team. What does Huntelaar add again?

Goals, I believe is the word you're looking for. Thirty goals in 48 caps, 12 in qualifying for Euro 2012. He is a target man, a Ruud van Nistelrooy. Van Persie is a "Number 10", a Bergkamp. The problem was, as adressed before, no offensive support. You can't expect your four forward players, even if they are Sneijder, Robben, van Persie etc to mount a serious effort at scoring goals when they are continually outnumbered at a near 1:2 ratio. I get that our defense is ****. Clearly, even with two DMC's in front, they're STILL ****. The painfully obvious solution? Don't play defensive football. Play possession football in the opposing half. Bring your fullbacks forward, if you lose the ball, press instantly and press hard. Play your fastest centerbacks and hope they can deal with counter-attacks, but if your defense is Swiss cheese, make sure that for every goal you concede, you score two. Playing to your weaknesses, instead of your strengths, is perfectly idiotic.

[Mark Snellink]

31 in 56 now, I guess. Point remains the same

[georginho_juventusygr]

The stamina wasn't there to play possession football.

[DJ]

The difference between Hunter and RvP? Whenever the Hunter was on the pitch, he was supposed to get the ball from, amongst others, a certain RvP...

Hunter did not get a fair chance in the tournament at all. Just look up his stats during the qualification and you'll see why I'm heavily biased towards him. Not to mention being in deadly form in the BL (whereas RvP was clearly over the mountain after the winter in England).

It's to be expected that people just can't see the superstar of "da bestest league in da whole world" utterly fail, but he did. No two ways about it. Playing in a team worth billions that is bought and geared towards playing in your service, training for this week after week, month after month, is one thing. Playing in the national team, drawing on your own strenghts, is clearly another.

[William Hall]

Say goedemorgen to the new Dutch manager.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

I say the biggest fail was Van Marwijk.

Although it could have been completely different, we definitely deserved a win against Denmark - and I could see us clinch a draw against both Germany and Portugal - which would have put us on 5 points and easily breeze through the group.

Play has been too defensive though, and you have to question both Van Marwijk's selection and inability to somehow make this team work.

It was quite clear though, that several players were just too damn knackered - where was RvP? Afellay? Robben? Even Sneijder looked out of it at times, although he has played a decent tournament.

WHy the hell did he take Willems off against Portugal, and not Van der Wiel, or a ridiculously poor Vlaar? Why did he play him in the first place against Portugal? I don't get it.

Then again, you are 1-0 up against Portugal - at some point it's 1-1 and you still look decent; Robben cuts in and hits a shot which is finally goalmouth - and bang Huntelaar in the way. A lot of second balls and rebounds that don't fall your way (you need those lucky balls to win)

But, I think we need to draw the conclusion that it's #exitbert

[Atropa]

I have a question, I did not follow the Eredivise this year, but why wasn't Janssen pick up in the 23, I was quite impress by this guy last year, was he a one year brilliant player? . I guess he would have help the midfield a lot. Yesterday there was a lack of player in the midfield it was so obvious, I didn't understand the substitution by Van Marwijk to be honest. His team didn't need more attackers but more midfielders, to help to construct the play. Even Van Bommel would have made a better job than Affaley. Even at 2-1, sometimes the more offensive sub are the defensive ones. It would have help to not play the players out of position.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

I have a question, I did not follow the Eredivise this year, but why wasn't Janssen pick up in the 23, I was quite impress by this guy last year, was he a one year brilliant player? . I guess he would have help the midfield a lot. Yesterday there was a lack of player in the midfield it was so obvious, I didn't understand the substitution by Van Marwijk to be honest. His team didn't need more attackers but more midfielders, to help to construct the play. Even Van Bommel would have made a better job than Affaley. Even at 2-1, sometimes the more offensive sub are the defensive ones. It would have help to not play the players out of position.

Theo Janssen? No chance. He was ok this past season at Ajax but not more than that. He would actually fall in line with some of our players - being out of shape and generally tired though

I'm not sure if he's ever been good enough for Oranje - especially looking at his position. (VdVaart, Sneijder) - you can expect Maher coming in hopefully.

[Atropa]

Ok fair enough, I thought he was playing deeper in the midfield. :o

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Ok fair enough, I thought he was playing deeper in the midfield. :o

He can play dMC, MC and also AMC to be fair - but thing is we have so many options.

DMC: Van Bommel, N. de Jong, Strootman, Anita, Clasie, De Zeeuw, Maduro, Schaars

MC: Van de Vaart, Maher, Theo Janssen I suppose, Bakkal, Fer

AMC: Van de Vaart, Sneijder, van Persie, Siem de Jong, Wijnaldum

You could also even look at Drenthe, Emanuelson and Afellay

[Cedrik]

I think we do have a huge problem here guys. I don't think with just appointing a new manager all the problems are gone. Look at all the youth players that currently are playing in Holland: does anyone is seeing there a new RvP, Robben or Sneijder? I don't. Why are Ajax only producing good defending prospects? And also at PSV and Feyenoord I don't see any good wingers and attackers comming through. The biggest attacking talent in de Eredivisie imo is at the moment Yanic Wildschut and he is also already getting 22 this year iirc.

Why are the Germans currently so good and getting so many bright young talented players through their ranks? This is due to the fact they changed there whole set-up of youth development. I read this very interesting artikel about that:

CLICK (Dutch)

The talents we have go to big European clubs (Rekik, Bruma, Castaignos, vAanholt etc.) and many of them are lacking intelligence and a professional attitude. I was also shocked by the fact looking at Willems at vWiel giving interviews to the press. Those guys are dumb as a damn rock. Nothing usefull comming out of their mouths.

Also the attitude in general within Oranje is worrying me. To many players putting themselves above the group, even a guy like Robben who is not lacking intelligence or professional attitude are way to eager of wanting to be the man of the moment himself instead of being important for the team but not the guy who scores the goal. The forming of groups within the national team is also something for me I cannot understand. Why does this happen? That people differ from person to person is logical, but if you cannot cross yourself away for the team you just miss the right attitude to be in a national team.

Who should become manager now? I would say someone young who is a natural leader. Ronaldo or Frank de Boer would be great. But also Rijkkaard (not really fitting the profile) would be suitable imo.

[William Hall]

Pim Verbeek is the best candidate to become the next Dutch manager.

[Lermon]

Or McClaren with his dutch accent.

[Cedrik]

Pim Verbeek is the best candidate to become the next Dutch manager.

Based on what? I see him not at all being capable of managing 'Oranje'.

[DJ]

Or McClaren with his dutch accent.

We want our team not to perform even worse than in the EC. Schteve would be perfectly capable of that. Thanks, but no thanks

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Pim Verbeek isn't rated in Holland.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Also, there is always talk about how there aren't any talents breaking through. There always are.

We have good GK's for the next 10 years. The majority of the current players can still last 4-6 seasons.

There's definitely up and coming talent - we could have guys like Kishna, Denswil, Tristan Berghuis, Achahbar, Trindade de Vilhena, Depay breaking through. And then there's the slightly more established bunch such as John, Luuk de Jong, Boerrigter, Maher, Narsingh, Martins Indi

[DJ]

Pim Verbeek is the best candidate to become the next Dutch manager.

Why? :confused:

[Cedrik]

Also, there is always talk about how there aren't any talents breaking through. There always are.

We have good GK's for the next 10 years. The majority of the current players can still last 4-6 seasons.

There's definitely up and coming talent - we could have guys like Kishna, Denswil, Tristan Berghuis, Achahbar, Trindade de Vilhena, Depay breaking through. And then there's the slightly more established bunch such as John, Luuk de Jong, Boerrigter, Maher, Narsingh, Martins Indi

Boerrigter is almost 25. And Depay I don't really see him getting that far, misses the right attitude. I do think you can add Wildschut and Clasie to that list.

[robbert_o154]

Based on what? I see him not at all being capable of managing 'Oranje'.

Pim Verbeek isn't rated in Holland.

Why? :confused:

He's taking the ****, people.

Too soon man, too soon.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Boerrigter is almost 25. And Depay I don't really see him getting that far, misses the right attitude. I do think you can add Wildschut and Clasie to that list.

I think Boerrigter would have featured if he wasn't injured - but yeah, he's no longer a talent. I don't really rate Wildschut.

Clasie I find really overrated too, but he could perhaps feature as DMC. I guess Van Bommel will be retiring shortly.

[DJ]

I think, whilst selecting, we should start taking a look at how players are actually doing for the national team as opposed to how they are doing for their club teams. It is pretty obvious to me that Steek, Heitinga, Vlaar (not that he was ever that good), Nigel de Jong, Affelay (insofar he was ever any good) and also van Persie have all started doing considerably worse for the NT since their big transfers. Jury still out on Robben. He is simply cursed this season, it would seem.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Mathijsen (might still need him though) - 32

Van Bommel - 35

Kuyt - 31

No issues if they retire from the Dutch squad. Especially Van Bommel but he'll probably retire after his next season at PSV, or just not be good enough for Oranje anymore anyway - but he'd be 37 in 2014.

[Cedrik]

I think Kuijt and vBommel doesn't want to quit the national team yet. Even though their ages.

I agree with you on Boerrigter being in the squad if he wasn't injured, but he would not have featured on this EC, just like Narsigh. Bert hold on to his squad of 15 players, not 23.

Clasie I consider to be very talented, but I think he lacks pace and strength. Leroy Fer will become essential on the midfield due to his physical.

[el sid]

The photoshop lads have been busy

:o

[football_master_94]

IMO, the differences between the WC campaign from two years ago and this Euro campaign were that the defence was weaker this time around and RVP had another **** tournament but this time there weren't goals coming from midfield like they were in the WC (albeit Sneijder was in the form of his life back then and ended up being joint top scorer) but the point remainst the same. BvM's stubbornness didn't help either and it's criminal that Huntelaar didn't get a chance until the last game.

Also, I think I'm right in saying of your starting XI for each game, every player plays at a different club and that must have an effect on how the team plays (ie. the core of Germany's side is Bayern orientated, Russians were basically Zenit + CSKA, Spain is Barca + RM etc etc)

[DJ]

I think we can do preciously little about the players being spread out through Europe, or at least until Financial Fair Play comes along. As I said above, I do think we will need to take a hard look at how those players fare. If they play some sort of role for their moneybag teams that only on paper is the same as in the NT, it may well influence their usefulness for the NT.

Van Persie, as a prime example, may get exactly the sort of service he needs at Arsenal, well, in fact he does, but in the NT he has consistently not produced the goods when it matters. In a way, he's therefore a limited player and maybe not good enough to be guaranteed a starting place in the NT.

[robbert_o154]

That's a sound principle in theory, but the problem is... then who? Much as I like those players, I can't see a national team in which Boerrigter, Narsingh and Anita are starters winning us silverware any time soon.

[DJ]

Those in form, for starters. This time around we could have gone with Luuk de Jong and Hunter, for example.

Van Persie > de Jong? Surely. But out of form, out of position(?), out of services van Persie, is he also > de Jong?

[Wendsill]

They shouldn't win us silverware any time soon, 2 years from now is early enough for that

All sillyness aside. We were not good enough and we've been not good enough for quite some time now, footballing wise.

We do not have the best defenders in the world, so what, if we lack there we should be the best in attacking in the world to make sure we always score more then our opponents.

[Mark Snellink]

Noticed a brief article in which Gregory van der Wiel basically confirmed exactly what I have seen and said before: His abilities were not used to their full extent by van Marwijk. He said (and I concur) that his biggest strength is coming forward and creating 2v1 situations on the right wing (and putting in crosses), but van Marwijk largely made him stay back.

To me, this is one of the many clear indications that 99.4% of all problems with this squad was the manager. And I'm not usually critical of managers, but when you have a top-level attacking fullback (and I get the feeling that Willems is probably also more potent in an attacking sense, rather than as a traditional stay-at-home left back) and you keep him shackled in the back, you're shooting yourself in the foot. When you substitute off a DMC for an AMC (Hi Rafael) and then make the AMC play as a DMC, you're utterly missing the point. Personally, I'm just very very disappointed, and I would imagine many of these players are too, because under competent guidance we could've done so much more.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Willems actually had a decent attacking move here and there - better than his defending. Van der Wiel just played like crap, so he should take his primadonna attitude and stick it up his candyass.

But I do feel that both wingbacks had very defensive roles indeed... but I do remember Willems doing more than Gregga in offense. I think Willems even pulled off a shot against Portugal.

[robbert_o154]

When you substitute off a DMC for an AMC (Hi Rafael) and then make the AMC play as a DMC, you're utterly missing the point.

Precisely. But that's when you get when you start picking players based on reputation and who has the biggest mouth, rather than form and suitability to the position.

[georginho_juventusygr]

[georginho_juventusygr]

[DJ]

I love Louis. But last time around there was something about some WC we didn't qualify for. Not exactly inspiring. I'd sooner have Rijkaard back.

[Mark Snellink]

No Van Gaal. He's not an international manager. Rijkaard did very respectable at Euro 2000. The suggestion of Koeman I've read would also be welcome, or Frank de Boer.

[William Hall]

Based on what? I see him not at all being capable of managing 'Oranje'.

Pim Verbeek isn't rated in Holland.

Why? :confused:

He's taking the ****, people.

Too soon man, too soon.

Exactly, he is a shithouse manager.

Imagine it though, I would be laughing until the next Euros.

[DJ]

We'll leave Frank de Boer exactly where he is thankyouverymuch

[Wendsill]

We'll leave Frank de Boer exactly where he is thankyouverymuch

Agreed!

I heared Fred Rutten is available

[robbert_o154]

Club loyalties aside - I too would like De Boer to remain at Ajax because it's my club and he's doing well - I'm not really sure that a guy with only a year and a half experience as a first team manager is the best choice to begin with. This is probably a fairly old-fashioned notion, but I feel the national coach job should be an honorary position for an experienced manager who's cut his chops.

I love Louis. But last time around there was something about some WC we didn't qualify for. Not exactly inspiring.

Not to mention that his undoing was his inability to handle the massive ego's. It would be the same thing all over again if he was to be appointed now. Louis is at his best handling talented youngsters.

[Wendsill]

Did anyone watch Studio Sportzomer or the RTL one last night? Some quite interesting discussions going around about the NT. I'm expecting alot of filth to be revealed soon, with the damaging of alot of ego's.

[DJ]

Drama here, drama there. I don't believe in this 'ego's' thing. These are all professional footballers who have all played with hundreds of others. Even if they wouldn't like another player, they would not sabotage the Dutch team by not playing the ball to them or whatnot. Simplistic excuses.

We took several wrong players to the EC and left others at home that should have gone and we were tactically and physically not up to any standard that we're used to. That spells mismanagement on a large scale.

[robbert_o154]

Yeah, I watched Studio Sportzomer yesterday. Those 3 journalists had quite a few interesting things to say. But can somebody please get Jan Mulder off the air? He's nothing but a nuisance to the discussion. Aad de Mos otoh was remarkably coherent when he came on the last couple of days.

Had I been in Van Marwijk's shoes, btw, I'd have subbed Robben on the spot. I can only surmise he hadn't heard him, worrying lack of balls otherwise to let that go unpunished.

[Wendsill]

Jan Mulder is the comical note on the table, I usually do not pay much attention to him . But indeed the discussions were interesting.

Specially the story about the doctors and Bouma was interesting. Not to gossip about, but to me it is a clear signal that the relations in the team (players+staff) are heavily disturbed. And when you're trying to play/win an EC a divided team is not what you need for a good/positive result.

Further more, those disturbed relations are not a good sign for the future. We're starting with a WC qualification in september and we'll need a team then.

[Mark Snellink]

How cryptic. I don't get Dutch TV here, foir some reason, can we elaborate a bit?

[robbert_o154]

How cryptic. I don't get Dutch TV here, foir some reason, can we elaborate a bit?

Out of curiosity, where is 'here'?

The Robben story is that during the match against Portugal, Van Marwijk shouted from the sideline to Robben that he had to track back. In reply, Robben told Van Marwijk to stfu. The NOS played a sound clip of this, so the veracity of this story is not in doubt.

The Bouma story is a little more specious. On Sunday, just after the match, Jack van Gelder reported that a player (iirc at that point yet unnamed) had had an altercation with the team doctor in the dressing room, in which fisticuffs may or may not have been involved. Minutes later, the team doctor came to Van Gelder, strenuously denying the story. On air, Van Gelder retracted the story, but yesterday he came back on the story, said that he now had proof the incident had taken place (but in the tunnel, not the dressing room) and that the player involved was Wilfried Bouma. Exactly what this proof was is unclear.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Apparently Huntelaar was also said he could go home if he wouldn't listen

Van der Wiel has been quite critical as well

[DJ]

Bouma already went to the press as well, denying the story. Well, even if true, it's of little consequense. Don't see Bouma coming back to the team anyway, he was there as a 3rd choice backup.

[Wendsill]

Whether one is a 3rd choice backup or a first teamer shouldn't make a difference imo. Getting (allegedly) physical with a staff member of the team should warrant you a one way ticket home period.

In 1996 a player was sent home because of some comments in the media and now it's acceptable to harass staff?

Our values have greatly dimished in the last 16 years....

Heared them also commenting about Huntelaar, but it remained pretty vague. If it is true that v/d Wiel was put on a defensive leash, than that's a pretty tactical fail of the coach and it gives v/d Wiel a little more right to complain about the tournament, but he wasn't great..