Is it time for Variable PA

[chopper99]

Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work?

The argument that mental attributes should have no limit is flawed as in all aspects of life people who've had similar up-bringings have different mental capacities and personalities. You can't just change or develop mental skills indefinitely. Like anything else you'll have a limit and if you ever reach that limit that will be it, you simply won't be able to improve any more.

And the argument for no limit on technical attributes is the most flawed for me. That's basically the same as saying that with the right amount of training I will be able to dribble like Maradona, Best or Ronaldo. I'll be able to shoot like Shearer and pass like Beckham. This is so not true it's unbelievable.

I really don't understand how people can't grasp the fact that the reason all sports don't just have loads of completely equal competitors, why some people are better than others, is because some people have the natural ability to be that bit better while others ability can only take them so far.

[nick1408]

i think there should be more negitive PA's but with smaller increments so that all players could be randomly generated within say a range of 10- 15 instead of (off the top of my head) a range of 40. I agree that PA shouldn't be set but a bit of a truer "fog of war" would include all players having a element of randomness in them.

For m example a player of Wayne Rooney could be in the top range of say 190-200 PA so that when the game generates he could fall anywhere in there.

Maybe also with more negitive potentials we ould have small ranges of say 5 at the top end to ranges of 30 at the bottom end. There is no reason that ranges couldn't overlap to make the "fog" a bit more of an element of randomness.

To me this seems logical to me but I am prepared for this to be picked to pieces and told how wrong I am.

[chopper99]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nick1408:

i think there should be more negitive PA's but with smaller increments so that all players could be randomly generated within say a range of 10- 15 instead of (off the top of my head) a range of 40. I agree that PA shouldn't be set but a bit of a truer "fog of war" would include all players having a element of randomness in them.

For m example a player of Wayne Rooney could be in the top range of say 190-200 PA so that when the game generates he could fall anywhere in there.

Maybe also with more negitive potentials we ould have small ranges of say 5 at the top end to ranges of 30 at the bottom end. There is no reason that ranges couldn't overlap to make the "fog" a bit more of an element of randomness.

To me this seems logical to me but I am prepared for this to be picked to pieces and told how wrong I am. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good idea. Although it would create a little more randomness as to which players developed from save to save it would still keep the most imprtant element; the fact that each players PA is set and that's the best they'll ever be.

[chopper99]

I'd just like to point out at this juncture that although I'm completely against scrapping PA completely I do think there are ways in which a players development can be improved.

I think PA should remain as is for technical and physical attributes. I do believe though that a players chance of reaching this PA should be impacted more by their mental attributes. Things like determination and possibly work rate should have a big impact on how quickly a player progresses towards their peak ability. Having players with low scores in these attributes tutored by older players should have a direct effect on things like determination and teamwork, and in-turn a direct effect on their ability to reach their potential.

As for mental attributes in general, I think these should be more goverened by experience than the same PA/CA system used or physical and mental attributes. The more experience of playing in important games the more certain mental attributes should improve. So a seasoned champions league campaigner who's won things should have noticeably higher mental attributes than many other players. Currently menatal attributes are based solely on CA and PA but I feel this is one area where a little more flexibility is needed.

[johnnydude]

I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:

I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so!

[chopper99]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:

.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is just current ability. A talanted youngster will have high abilities because his CA is already high. This has ne bearing whatsoever on his potential.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But by definition potential is the best you can ever be. So there's no need for it to start high and then fall to match the players mental attributes. The fact is it should have been whatever value it falls to to start with because that's the best that player was ever going to be.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again this is CA. His PA is the best he could ever be if everthing went absolutely perfect for him. How he pans out over his important developing years are all to do with his CA.

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no they can't. if player natural ability is bad he won't be given a chance to play, which is far more important then training facilities.

[Themistofelis]

I like the FIFA way more, each player has a fixed amount of talent and then coaches, facilities ,luck , 1st team football and character are affecting his development .

Also the tutoring should have big impact despite age , i can think many of my favorite club's players that improved after a season of playing together with big names (i can even think of a guy that improved alot while he was 28 years old).

[chopper99]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no they can't. if player natural ability is bad he won't be given a chance to play, which is far more important then training facilities. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you're still sticking by the fact that if you were manager of a top team and did just decide to play him you could make any player world class as there would be no limit to their potential as long as they got the coaching and the games?

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

I like the FIFA way more, each player has a fixed amount of talent and then coaches, facilities ,luck , 1st team football and character are affecting his development .

Also the tutoring should have big impact despite age , i can think many of my favorite club's players that improved after a season of playing together with big names (i can even think of a guy that improved alot while he was 28 years old). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it??

[Soton]

No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained.

[Kawee]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Basically, if you use the game AS INTENDED there is no way of knowing someones potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in numbers, but in words we can. I find it very frustrating that a 17 year old is "currently close to his full potential."

[Themistofelis]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need to use any program to look anything, each player has a fixed "talent" this factor is number one in the speed of skill improvement , good academies around the world will increase the chance of you getting better quality of talents but of course world class stars are always rare .

I think it is realistic to sign 19 year olds who are tall , strong and aggressive and train them into useful defenders, they may be never become world stars (because of their fixed talent value) but they will be good enough to give depth in your bench or play against lesser opposition.

In the current fm model all low PA youngsters are just crap and their destiny is to quit football after 2 years, think of it.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kawee:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Basically, if you use the game AS INTENDED there is no way of knowing someones potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in numbers, but in words we can. I find it very frustrating that a 17 year old is "currently close to his full potential." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But thats what happens IRL, a Man Utd scout isn't going to look at a team of League 2 players and say that we should sign them all because they all have the potential to be absolutly brilliant!

Some players will only ever reach League 2 level because of their natural ability.

Just like not everyone has the brains to be a rocket scientist, not everyone has the potential to be the best footballer in the world!

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need to use any program to look anything, each player has a fixed "talent" this factor is number one in the speed of skill improvement , good academies around the world will increase the chance of you getting better quality of talents but of course world class stars are always rare .

I think it is realistic to sign 19 year olds who are tall , strong and aggressive and train them into useful defenders, they may be never become world stars (because of their fixed talent value) but they will be good enough to give depth in your bench or play against lesser opposition.

In the current fm model all low PA youngsters are just crap and their destiny is to quit football after 2 years, think of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need to use any program to look anything, each player has a fixed "talent" this factor is number one in the speed of skill improvement , good academies around the world will increase the chance of you getting better quality of talents but of course world class stars are always rare .

I think it is realistic to sign 19 year olds who are tall , strong and aggressive and train them into useful defenders, they may be never become world stars (because of their fixed talent value) but they will be good enough to give depth in your bench or play against lesser opposition.

In the current fm model all low PA youngsters are just crap and their destiny is to quit football after 2 years, think of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plus as for the destiny thing, surely thats the same in real life? I know my PA as a footballer is crap, hence why i've never tried for a proffesional club! No matter how hard i train i'll never be as good as someone like Rooney

[Themistofelis]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it is not , a player will still improve until a serious injury or age make his skills decline , of course it is up to you if you are willing to play a guy for 10 years in order to turn him world class or invest in a more talented that will become top after only 2 seasons.

[bc1sjw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:

I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PA has been variable in FM for about the last 4/5 versions - when a player has like -7/-8 PA it means they have the potential for their PA to develop to a set range eg 155 - 165.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it is not , a player will still improve until a serious injury or age make his skills decline , of course it is up to you if you are willing to play a guy for 10 years in order to turn him world class or invest in a more talented that will become top after only 2 seasons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work!

[johnnydude]

in a way it depends on how you are looking at PA.

I was taking my point from earlier in a way that used PA as a bench mark for the unknown. In my example I was thinking that if the youngster is taken on board at a certian level within football be it championship or conference etc then he has a certain degree of potential that the scout has seen. His CA would be low as he needs to develop. As they gain a better understanding of his mental ways his PA could feasibly drop as he has not got the heart etc. This was why I thought PA should be high as the younster is technically an unknown quantity. At 14/15 you may have the potential to be as good as Maradona but your might not display that skill ever because you dont develop or have not got the right coaches or natural ability.

However thinking on it in terms of the game i suppose it is used as a benchmark for the processing to make sure that they have a limit straight away. Potential will therefore always be the same and the computer has determined that this is the best a player will ever be.

Although in real life the potential someone has may fluctuate the player can not meet or surpass his potential I can fully understand why this is not happening in the game and on hindsight fully believe that having the set PA in game is the right way to do it.

[Themistofelis]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad .

[Mitja]

I wouldn't like to get into hypotetical discusion here. the fact is that if you're smart enough you'll play your best youngsters.

and I just can't see how could some realy bad player improve to world class, his potential is limited by his ability at the moment plus he wouldn't be given chance to play in top team.

but hypoteticaly, I thin even worst youngster could become decent player if he was given a chance to play a lot in a team like Man U, but this is only hypoteticaly, it wouldn't happen.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, how would that work, it wouldn't be anything like real life to sign a bunch of 19yos and they all turn out to be the best players in their positions.

FM is a replication of how it works in real lfe, no club pins their hopes on their youth team.

It sounds like you want FM to be a communist game where everyone has an equal chance dispite obvious examples where it isn't possible!

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

absolutly true.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

I wouldn't like to get into hypotetical discusion here. the fact is that if you're smart enough you'll play your best youngsters.

and I just can't see how could some realy bad player improve to world class, his potential is limited by his ability at the moment plus he wouldn't be given chance to play in top team.

but hypoteticaly, I thin even worst youngster could become decent player if he was given a chance to play a lot in a team like Man U, but this is only hypoteticaly, it wouldn't happen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is good when you can play your best youngsters, but just because you are young doesn't mean you're gonna make it.

Its starting to sound like X factor where someone who clearly can't sing thinks that given some vocal coaching they can be the next big thing, it'll never happen.

And yes bad players won't be given a chance to play in a top team simply because they're a bad player, thats how the game/life works IRL.

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:

No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

best reply on this metter ever.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

absolutly true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok so if you want a game just for fun play FIFA, if you want some realism added in play FM.

[hee163]

In response to the original post...

You have summed up the current system entirely.

You, or me for instance, had a low CA when we were younger, and a slightly higher PA - a level which you could reach if you were given the right 'football upbringing' from an early stage.

Since neither of us were given the 'football upbringing' required to fulfil our potential, our CA remained at a low lever, and our PA is now just a legacy of what we could have achieved.

As suche there is no need to have variable PA, as long as the majority of players don't reach their full potential, which has been a problem in previous versions of the game, but less so these days.

[xouman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way

But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose).

[Butts]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:

No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

best reply on this metter ever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely what your saying soton is a case for it not to be changed. As has already been stated PA is the best you will ever be and not everyone reaches there full potential in FM. Which means what you are saying is just a case for it to stay the same as in FM not everyone will actually reach their full potential but no-one ever IRL or in the game will exceed their potential as its physically impossible.

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

all this stuff about variable PAs or everyone should have a PA of 200 and the rest is based on your environment.

we're going along the assumption that we can see the PA. we shouldn't be able to. we get into this conversation about making PAs not set instone because some of us insist on looking at the PAs.

if you didn't then it makes no difference. the PA should be absolute. whether the player reaches that PA depends on their environment. this is how it is at the moment and how it should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there is no PA IRE. how many times we seen PA changing to some player. it's just simplefied version of how things should be.

I would settle for variable PA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's only because SI got the PA wrong in the first place.

doesn't mean that it changes in real life.

then again we can't moan that SI got it wrong because it's no visible in real life.

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neville_Roach:

If Potential Ability dosnt need to change, as others have noted this is natural; its the best you could be - Then how can you tell this in a player at any age? Your asking a game to predict how good this player can be based on very little evidence at a very young age.

This suits the game because its easy to code, and everything in game seems to be related to ability so its quite a big factor, but i think the fluctuation between dvelopment would hit bugs...and oh...please not any more... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the game isn't predicting anything. the developers are doing that.

if we're talking about regens then again the game isn't predicting anything. because the game has generated these players it's also generated how good they can be. IT KNOWS EVERYTHING!!

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way

But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the answer to the the problem is that the scouts and AI shouldn't be able to read the PA correctly and only read the CA and make a guess at the PA. As it happens IRL, scouts only guess the PA.

[Soton]

The system should be changed because it is possible to reach you're potential.

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kawee:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think ideally the minus PA (-10,-9,-8 etc) system should be used for all players under 21 with a wider gap range for exampla -10 = 170-200, -9 = 160-190, -8 = 150-180 etc and this shouldn't be set until the players are about 19-21 with the figure increasing or decreasing according to the players experiences in the game with regards to developing factors such as coaches, training environment, first team experience etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is pretty good idea. Anyone under have no set PA. But not like 1-200. Sergio Arguero start off with not a set PA, but a possibility of 170-200 PA. Then depending on how he develops, his PA will be set when he turns 21. IT could be 185 it could be 195. But it depends on his development and not just determined since the beginning of the game. Then one turn 21, there are no more changes to the PA. Just a matter of maximizing his now-set PA.

This idea would please those who wish for variable PA. But it would also please those who wish for it to be set. And it would prevent big clubs from creating super talents every year because although it is possible to maximize a youngster's PA, his PA can still only go so high. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if you didn't know about PAs would you be bothered if it was varable or not?

no. because as far as your concerned its the same either way. sometimes the player becomes good. others they stay rubbish.

people should stop looking at the CA/PA

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:

No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

best reply on this metter ever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control.

In other words the CA needs to be toned down then, that is the only way you could change it in a computer game!

[postal postie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way

But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the answer to the the problem is that the scouts and AI shouldn't be able to read the PA correctly and only read the CA and make a guess at the PA. As it happens IRL, scouts only guess the PA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i believe this happens already.

my scout told me that a player would reach a certain level. i bought him and he changed his mind and said he would be even better.

my couches recommend that i get rid of most of my youth players. but after awhile they tend to like them.

so coaches and the like do not so an absolute PA

[Soton]

"So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control.

In other words the CA needs to be toned down then, that is the only way you could change it in a computer game!"

I'm not saying that at all, read my post again!

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:

"So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control.

In other words the CA needs to be toned down then, that is the only way you could change it in a computer game!"

I'm not saying that at all, read my post again! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats exactly what you're implying, you state that everyone has a full potential i.e. PA and that due to circumstances that no one ever reaches their PA i.e. their CA.

If thats not what you mean think you need to reword what your trying to say.

[Soton]

"So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control."

What i'm saying is that even if rooney has a PA of 198 he's CA will never reach 198.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Soton:

"So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control."

What i'm saying is that even if rooney has a PA of 198 he's CA will never reach 198. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that what i said? 170 was an example number.

[djsills]

personally i think all PAs should be set higher but player development redesigned so no player ever reaches his PA.

What majorly bugs me is when a player reaches his PA so he can no longer improve at all.

I also don't think mental attributes should be set under PA at all. A player's mental attributes are constantly changing. I could spend ages explaining this but hopefully a quick example will help.

My striker is selfish and has a low teamwork rating. I might tell him in training that if he refuses to pass i won't play him and IRL this might change his style of play (in game this would be represented by an attribute rise in teamwork). However, currently in game my striker is playing close to his potential so his teamwork can't dramatically rise unless some of his other attributes fall.

[xouman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not saying that players improve at fine pace forever, I'm saying that players stop improving for argumentable and visible things, not mystically. Of couse all players stop improving, and then they could improve again, but in a moment of their career they start losing skill.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

The argument that mental attributes should have no limit is flawed as in all aspects of life people who've had similar up-bringings have different mental capacities and personalities. You can't just change or develop mental skills indefinitely. Like anything else you'll have a limit and if you ever reach that limit that will be it, you simply won't be able to improve any more.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not saying that a player will improve normally in all mental aspects. What's the limit for your aggression? Maybe it's currently at 5, no matter how your coach tries to modify it. Then you have problems at home, maybe you have been tackled very hard, and you are suddenly not the same person and your aggression has increased a lot. Under normal circunstances it would never happen. All people could have aggression of 20 under certain circunstances, maybe extreme, although very few could have pace of 20. Agreed, very few people will reach 20 in aggression, but everybody has a little chance to have it under limit circunstanecs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

And the argument for no limit on technical attributes is the most flawed for me. That's basically the same as saying that with the right amount of training I will be able to dribble like Maradona, Best or Ronaldo. I'll be able to shoot like Shearer and pass like Beckham. This is so not true it's unbelievable.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, training for years focusing in dribbling,you can dribble as the. But without agility, balance, technique, pace, acceleration, decisions, flair... dribbling is 20% of a real dribble, so you won't past after most conference defenders with crap attributes even if your dribble is 20. I have seen on tv people who does amazing things with the ball, better than any (or almost any) proffessional player in the world. But they are at circus, don't play football because a technica skill without other skills (mental, technical and physical) does nothing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I really don't understand how people can't grasp the fact that the reason all sports don't just have loads of completely equal competitors, why some people are better than others, is because some people have the natural ability to be that bit better while others ability can only take them so far. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are better not because are born gifted, but because of lots of things. They could have better initial skills due to genetic, but that's not all at all.

Maradona was himself because great because he had impressive technical attributes, some very good mental attributes and played accordingly to his physical attributes. physical attributes were mostly affected by genetic. Mental attributes were due to familiar situation and way of living, and the fact he loved football. And technical attributes were due to lots of football playing in the street and he tried constantly to improve.

But I'm not talking why maradona was when he appeared in proffessional football, but about the way he improved. PA is just a limit in how a player can improve. Best or Gascoigne didn't improve more when they started proffessional football than other players with same age an conditions, they just had better attributes from the beginning.

PA is needed because players improving is not quite good IMHO, with a very good improving system it would be useless.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

PA is needed because players improving is not quite good IMHO, with a very good improving system it would be useless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could have sworn based on all your posts you were against having a PA!

[Soton]

I agree strongly with djsills and xouman posts.

[xouman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:

I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Potentially yes (at least technical and mental attributes). But surely your CA is 100 points under his, so you never would be as good as him in planet earth. At 14 they were far beyond any 14 player.

[stumostro]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by johnnydude:

I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Potentially yes (at least technical and mental attributes). But surely your CA is 100 points under his, so you never would be as good as him in planet earth. At 14 they were far beyond any 14 player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But i like alot of other people have very poor technical abilities, whereas he has immense technical abilities. So your saying that if his CA at his prime was 198 mine would be 98? Thats good for a conference player! I wouldn't stand a chance at conference level! My CA would be around 10 at the most!!!

[Themistofelis]

You think Genaro Gatuzo has any technical skill at all? he just play with mental and physical good sportsmen and characters can play in proffesional level if they are committed to their work

[xouman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

Just like not everyone has the brains to be a rocket scientist, not everyone has the potential to be the best footballer in the world! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brains are more or less for a rocket scientist (RS) what physical attributes are for a footballer. A person with 0 brains couldn't be RS, a person with 0 phys can't play football (think of maradona without legs).

But if you take 20 children aged 3 and teach them in order to be RS, all those who are interested in it will success. Those who don't like to read, who don't study, who are more intrested in other areas, won't be RS, the other ones could be.