South American Football > European Football

[englandmanager]

fabulous players no doubt, Van Basten is is one of my favorite, but are you saying they are better than the top 3 I posted? or even better than Pele or Maradona?

i'd have zidane in 3rd

pele and maradona were different class, but that doesn't mean south america has the best quality

[Candre168]

fabulous players no doubt, Van Basten is is one of my favorite, but are you saying they are better than the top 3 I posted? or even better than Pele or Maradona?

Did Maradona play for Ecuador?

Did Pele play for Colombia?

[georginho_juventusygr]

Oh, and in that way, we can see more about football: how it's played in Bolivia, how Fiji play, how England can play under constant heat in Qatar, etc.

[Worcester City Researcher]

global warming? ahhh, so thats why its been boiling hot lately.

I suppose that Uquillas is helping generate an ecologically sound form of energy and fuel - the amount of manure he's produced lately all over here.

[Uquillas]

Get the point in your head, it doesn't matter that Argentina and Brazil are historically so brilliant, as long as the likes of Paraguay and Colombia are so irrelevant, South America does not deserve another qualifying spot.

yeah, so irrelevant that they finished first in the group with the defending world champion and lost in the final minutes to spain in a match that could of gone either way.

I guess we should tremble at the might of Greece or Slovenia.

[Candre168]

yeah, so irrelevant that they finished first in the group with the defending world champion and lost in the final minutes to spain in a match that could of gone either way.

I guess we should tremble at the might of Greece or Slovenia.

Historically have they done anything?

No.

Are they better than '02 Turkey? Or '98 Croatia?

No.

[englandmanager]

the global warming post was me very badly trying to state that uquillas is wasting energy by posting nonsense on his computer

[SeanNUFC]

I suppose that Uquillas is helping generate an ecologically sound form of energy and fuel - the amount of manure he's produced lately all over here.

lolllllllllllll

[Uquillas]

Did Maradona play for Ecuador?

Did Pele play for Colombia?

is Argentina and Brazil not in South America? please learn your geography.

[Uquillas]

Historically have they done anything?

No.

Are they better than '02 Turkey? Or '98 Croatia?

No.

again, how many countries does europe send and how many does SA send? its simple numbers.

[roseboy64]

is Argentina and Brazil not in South America? please learn your geography.

Completely missing the point.

[Pukey]

is Argentina and Brazil not in South America? please learn your geography.

Please read his post and try and work out the point that he's trying to make.

[Worcester City Researcher]

how convenient no van basten, zidane, figo, cruyff?

just out of interest if klose beats the all-time goalscoring record for the world cup is he the worlds greatest footballer?

Plus - Hristo Stoichkov, Bobby Moore, Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller, Uwe Seeler, Ferenc Puskas, Roberto Baggio, Franco Baresi, Paolo Rossi, Dino Zoff, Ruud Gullit, Eusebio, Georghe Hagi, Lev Yashin, Eduard Streltsov, Emilio Butragueño

[Candre168]

is Argentina and Brazil not in South America? please learn your geography.

Stop missing my point, Brazil and Argentina are great, everyone else isn't.

[englandmanager]

again, how many countries does europe send and how many does SA send? its simple numbers.

europe has far more countries?

hell are you trying for everyone in South America to get an automatic spot?

[georginho_juventusygr]

And ...

[Candre168]

again, how many countries does europe send and how many does SA send? its simple numbers.

So what reason do you have exactly as for why South America deserve more qualification spots?

If you say because Argentina and Brazil have won as many WC's as Euro nations then I think you've just proven how flawed your arguments are.

[georginho_juventusygr]

Originally posted by Diego Maradona:

"I am certain that Del Piero really never grows old."

[jmr]

As if Maradona posts on here, probably an alias.

[Uquillas]

So what reason do you have exactly as for why South America deserve more qualification spots?

If you say because Argentina and Brazil have won as many WC's as Euro nations then I think you've just proven how flawed your arguments are.

so are greece, slovenia, serbia, denmark and switzerland better than colombia/ecuador?

I don't think so

[Candre168]

so are greece, slovenia, serbia, denmark and switzerland better than colombia/ecuador?

I don't think so

First of all, I think your post isn't just offensive to European Football, but to African Football as well, because I'd argue minus Brazil and Argentina, African football is just as good as South American football.

Second of all, they are all better than Ecuador. Colombia, depends on the day.

[georginho_juventusygr]

Don't be thick, Uquillas. UEFA gets more spots because 53 football associations are there and because the history proves that some nations there have played well in the World Cups.

[Worcester City Researcher]

so are greece, slovenia, serbia, denmark and switzerland better than colombia/ecuador?

I don't think so

Denmark and Greece have both won their Continental Championship - I don't recall Ecuador doing so...

[Tele Santana]

Candre,

Surely my messages started answering posts unlike the opening discussion. If you´d follow, you´d see what I am talking about. But you´re missing the point when you say South America has no depth.

Croatia and Turkey were one-timers, just like huh, Chile, is that right? Or, for that matter, South Korea.

When you look at the display from all of the teams from the continent, it is pretty clear that South America has had a very good World Cup and despite the fact that sometimes its teams will perform badly, generally speaking there are currently 7 teams in South America who could perform well and be noticed in the World Cup.

There is another team called Venezuela which has been increasing steadily over the last 10 years and there is one team with football culture and good historical showings which is in a low (Peru). Bolivia is possibly the only weaker team in South America which can have a more challenging way up.

Whilst Europe sends 13 or whatever teams, 7 of those were disqualified early this year. Likewise, the common statistical outcome is that European sides, based on numbers are more likely to be at the final stages than any other continent.

Unless you mean depth by restricting the World Cup to perennial powers with tons of players by generation, and thus have a 4-6 nations tournament, you missed completely the point about depth.

On average, there is more depth in South American countries than in most European. In the usual suspects (Brazil and Argentina) as well as the other countries. Of course, if you compare Uruguay high caliber players with Germany, that can be odd. But compare Chile or Uruguay with Slovakia or even Portugal and see what you´ve got.

Katarian,

please don´t justify the bias with these claims that refereeing was different, no disonhesty was proved - although the errors and their criticalities in many instances were, etc. This is too cliche as well.

Get a video of the Portuguese playing Pele in 66 and tell me if this is plain different standard of officiating. Or ask Puc - well, probably his grandson nowadays - and the Czechs if they agreed with the refereeing decisions in 34. You could ask the Austrians of the last version of the Wunderteam as well.

The issue is how do people allow themselves so easily to stereotype opposition as cheaters and can´t look at their own bellies, just like was done in the picture posting above.

For the record, I do think Maradona as a person sucks, I think he should be dishonored for acting his goal, glorifying it openly as well as his other attitudes such as allowing and joking about a "holy water" given to an opponent in a World Cup (such as Rivaldo should be criticized for his theatre as well).

But Suárez action would be the same for every player with the presence of mind regardless of nationality, and many European players (worlwide, actually) have already proved they play dirty and unsportsmanlike, even in this World Cup.

Cheers,

Tele

[Candre168]

European teams knocked out European teams...

So what?

[RBKalle]

even if only 1 SA made it to the semifinals, they have still had a good WC, remember, we send only 4.5 teams, where europe sends like 13?

RBKalle,

All South American sides except Venezuela already qualified to the WC through qualifying round.

Sorry but your post was wrong.

This time we could say 8 teams could have gone, because Peru and Bolivia were too fragile. But I am pretty sure both of them, with a bit of luck, good work/coaching can challenge for spots in 2014.

That´s pretty much at least 80% competitive sites.

In Europe, nothing close to that.

And again, the 6th best side in SA, arguably Ecuador, would be easily among the top 20 of Europe, with a genuine chance to compete.

Are you for real or what?!

For Pete's sake... South America have a total of TEN teams for a population of 400 millions, while Europe have a total of FIFTYTHREE teams for a population of 750 millions...

And ignoring Europe's minnows, there's a list of at least 25 European nations that could qualify for the World Cup

Don't you just get it?!

South America doesn't have to "split" their talent pool between smaller countries...

Just think what would happen if Brazil was divided into 5 or 6 smaller nations? Would it be equally strong? Hell no...

In Europe there's fragmentation AND a higher level of competition... Just look at which nations haven't qualified for this world cup...

Czech Republic, Sweden, Croatia, Ireland, Romania, Russia...

I don't really get your point, but whatever it is it reeks of blind nationalism...

Are you asking for South America to bring 8 teams to the world cup just because some European sides got knocked out early?

Geez...

[SeanNUFC]

Candre,

Surely my messages started answering posts unlike the opening discussion. If you´d follow, you´d see what I am talking about. But you´re missing the point when you say South America has no depth.

Croatia and Turkey were one-timers, just like huh, Chile, is that right? Or, for that matter, South Korea.

When you look at the display from all of the teams from the continent, it is pretty clear that South America has had a very good World Cup and despite the fact that sometimes its teams will perform badly, generally speaking there are currently 7 teams in South America who could perform well and be noticed in the World Cup.

There is another team called Venezuela which has been increasing steadily over the last 10 years and there is one team with football culture and good historical showings which is in a low (Peru). Bolivia is possibly the only weaker team in South America which can have a more challenging way up.

Whilst Europe sends 13 or whatever teams, 7 of those were disqualified early this year. Likewise, the common statistical outcome is that European sides, based on numbers are more likely to be at the final stages than any other continent.

Unless you mean depth by restricting the World Cup to perennial powers with tons of players by generation, and thus have a 4-6 nations tournament, you missed completely the point about depth.

On average, there is more depth in South American countries than in most European. In the usual suspects (Brazil and Argentina) as well as the other countries. Of course, if you compare Uruguay high caliber players with Germany, that can be odd. But compare Chile or Uruguay with Slovakia or even Portugal and see what you´ve got.

Katarian,

please don´t justify the bias with these claims that refereeing was different, no disonhesty was proved - although the errors and their criticalities in many instances were, etc. This is too cliche as well.

Get a video of the Portuguese playing Pele in 66 and tell me if this is plain different standard of officiating. Or ask Puc - well, probably his grandson nowadays - and the Czechs if they agreed with the refereeing decisions in 34. You could ask the Austrians of the last version of the Wunderteam as well.

The issue is how do people allow themselves so easily to stereotype opposition as cheaters and can´t look at their own bellies, just like was done in the picture posting above.

For the record, I do think Maradona as a person sucks, I think he should be dishonored for acting his goal, glorifying it openly as well as his other attitudes such as allowing and joking about a "holy water" given to an opponent in a World Cup (such as Rivaldo should be criticized for his theatre as well).

But Suárez action would be the same for every player with the presence of mind regardless of nationality, and many European players (worlwide, actually) have already proved they play dirty and unsportsmanlike, even in this World Cup.

Cheers,

Tele

How many more stupid essays you gonna write tonight before you get the point?

[20LEGEND]

Said this before but if SA want an extra WC spot they should pick a fight with Africa or Asia, not Europe. There is no logical argument for cutting Europe's places.

And if SA did have a full 5th spot, is 5 spots for 8 viable teams not too much? 4.5 spots seems ok, Europe has 13 for 25+ viable teams.

[masteR+_+]

and ignoring europe's minnows, there's a list of at least 25 european nations that could qualify for the world cup

.

[20LEGEND]

.

In the last 4 World Cups I make it 26 different Euro teams that have qualified

[Candre168]

^

Italy

France

Spain

Germany

England

Holland

Russia

Serbia

Turkey

Croatia

Greece

Portugal

Switzerland

Slovakia

Slovenia

Belgium

Ukraine

Ireland

Romania

Bulgaria

Czech Republic

Sweden

That's 22.

All could feasibly qualify for a WC even though not all on that list are especially brilliant.

(Sorry if I forgot anyone from that list )

[Tele Santana]

Worcester,

Your arguments started to seem silly a while back in the thread.

Let´s deal with tem.

'look forward to Bolivia and Peru making it to at least the semi finals in 2014'

If they can embarass Italy and make a hard time for Spain leading for them to need to resort in officiating to win, well, that´s fair enough for me.

Which actually builds the case for Candre as well. Candre, your arguments are plain silly. Based on them, we´d have only six teams competing for glory in the WC. Come on. Turkey had a good generation, Croatia is out so, of course, out of having 13 spots in a competition it is likely that more of your numbers will end up in the final four. Their football culture is by no means stronger than Uruguay´s, or for any matter, Colombia´s.

If you´re going way low as to cite Escobar´s fate, why don´t you research about Sinderlar´s death, for example? Was Europe a continent of bananas?

'Plus those like Andorra, the Faeroes and Liechtenstein who have only been in it since 1994'

About this, as I mentioned, it doesn´t matter if there are 30 or 50. It is much more than 10. Want me to do the math for you?

'Denmark and Greece have both won their Continental Championship - I don't recall Ecuador doing so...'

How easy it is, isn´t it, to win European Championships? You´re sure you are proud Greece did it? I saw it and it was lame. Anyways, 7 teams won the SA Championships, including Peru, Paraguay, Bolivia and Colombia.

So what was the point again?

To Candre´s attempts at irony and arguments...

´First of all, I think your post isn't just offensive to European Football, but to African Football as well, because I'd argue minus Brazil and Argentina, African football is just as good as South American football.

Second of all, they are all better than Ecuador. Colombia, depends on the day.´

Well, present me a better league play than Chile or even Colombia in Africa. If any of this nonsense is valid, I see African players as evenly talented as European and South American in some cases.

And, for the record, I think Ecuador would be highly likely to reach European Championship Finals.

Finally, to the one who placed Zidane over Di Stefano. Are you serious?

And for the one who mentioned Stoitchkov, Baggio, Butragueño...first make a better research among Europeans...Secondly, what do Schiaffino or Francescoli or Caszely or Figueroa or Gamarra or Romerito or Cubillas lack when faced against those people? And yet the eurocentric 'we live alone' approach strikes again.

Superb fun.

[SeanNUFC]

Oh joy, another essay!

[finneys13]

^

Italy

France

Spain

Germany

England

Holland

Russia

Serbia

Turkey

Croatia

Greece

Portugal

Switzerland

Slovakia

Slovenia

Belgium

Ukraine

Ireland

Romania

Bulgaria

Czech Republic

Sweden

That's 22.

All could feasibly qualify for a WC even though not all on that list are especially brilliant.

(Sorry if I forgot anyone from that list )

Also can add Denmark, Norway, Poland and Scotland into the middling standard. Austria and Hungary have had their great teams. Bosnia and Latvia had their moments since independence.

Europe has a lot of middling teams that are no worse than any but the very top teams from the rest of the world. Most of the SA teams (ex. Brazil and Argentina of course) are of the roughly same standard, and the better African, CONCAFCAFCAF and Asian teams. The present numbers of teams is the fairest possible at the moment.

Only the very best African, CONCAFCAFCAF and Asian teams can compete at this level, the likes of Honduras, Cameroon and North Korea were all out of their depth, the 5th best Asian team were eliminated by New Zealand for ****'s sake.

SA get half of their teams to the WC, Europe about half of their competitive teams. So everyone should be happy.

[Candre168]

Page length posts

Brazil, Paraguay, Argentina, Uruguay and Colombia. Only South American teams currently deserving of the WC. I'll be generous and throw in Ecuador as well.

That's 6 compared to Europe's 22.

[georginho_juventusygr]

Del Piero > all names that you've mentioned.

[georginho_juventusygr]

For 2014, I want:

1 host

4.5 from AFC

1 from OFC

4.5 from CONMEBOL

3.5 from CONCACAF

12.5 from UEFA

5 from CAF

Playoffs: Asia v. North America and Europe v. South America.

[Candre168]

Sorry I forgot Chile in my list. They are very deserving

[cms186]

Euro hate? because SA has better football throughout history compared to europe?

So do you have SA jealousy and hate because you think the opposite?

Best players in the history of Futbol

1. Pele

2. Maradona

3. Di Stefano

what do they have in common?

Puskas was better than di stefano

[RBKalle]

Superb fun.

Most definitely...

I hope you're just messing with us...

Your suggestion is to give South America like 8 WC spots, while decreasing Europe to what? 10?

Based on what again? Your perception of European teams being "filler"? Your idea of South America's superiority, which is basically due to lucky circumstances...

Uruguay LUCKED OUT til the semifinals...

They faced:

South Africa

Mexico

and the most embarrassing France of all times.

Then South Korea and Ghana, with an healthy dose of controversy.

Hardly a breathtaking campaign...

And shall we talk about Paraguay, aka "anti-football"?

So your whole "superiority" point is null and void... it's just you refuse to see reality.

Europe have qualified almost THIRTY different nations in the last world cups, so that proves there is actually "life" beyond the Top Six.

European football is much more than Germany, Italy, France, England, Spain and Netherlands...

[Tele Santana]

SeanNUFC,

No need to get offensive. If you think my posts (essays? wow) are stupid, ignore them. I don´t expect to change your mind, you can be sure.

But I am entitled to write what I see fit, not insulting you or anything. Anyways, again I must say I am not advocating another spot for South America, but I find ludicrous that you guys really think that Ecuador or Colombia couldn´t be a match for some European sides inside the World Cup, let alone these 22 sides that were cited.

South America, on average, presents more player per country than Europe capable of playing at high caliber. That is my point in the depth discussion.

Oh, and to RBKalle...geez, you still didn´t get it.

I´m not talking about fragmentation or whatever. Fact of life is: South America has 7-8 teams which today would be able to play at the WCup, in my opinion, better than some countries from Europe that were there.

By the way, as mentioned before, Europe has twice the population of South America, and even looking at the "fragments", Brazil let alone is half of our population - so*your* argument...doesn´t start off good. Based on the top populations of each continent, Europe would have 8 countries amongst the top 10 (Brazil and Colombia, for SA).

See the list

1. Brazil

2. Russia

3. Germany

4. Turkey

5. France

6. England

7. Italy

8. Spain

9. Ukraine

10. Colombia

11. Poland

12. Argentina

13. Peru

14. Venezuela

15. Romania

16. Chile

17. Netherlands

18. Ecuador

19. Greece

20. Belgium

21. Portugal

Please note that amongst the 10 top populations, 2 are from South America. Towards the end of the list, population of course becomes closer.

So, if fragmentation is supposed to tell something, at least it would mean there are many lesser talented teams in Europe who are benefited by the amount of berths, because being, as you said, minnows, they are still able to qualify.

About the European diversity issue overstated here. In the last 5 World Cups, out of 10 teams in South America, 7 qualified.

My idea would be to have 4 direct berths for South America and something like 10 for Europe. The rest of the pack would play a general repechage that would be more fair, just like the Olympics qualifying for some sports.

It is pretty clear to me, and not based on this World Cup alone, that Chilean football (not to mention Uruguay and Paraguay) has more to offer to the world than say, Greece, Slovenia or Switzerland, with all due respect. And the same holds true, looking on the long term, for both Colombia and Ecuador.

But that´s just my opinion.

Cheers,

Tele

[Tele Santana]

RBKalle,

How is so... Uruguay win controversial? Can you explain?

About Paraguay, did you look how Switzerland play historically? Did you see the match today? Did you see Spain get away with a rightful goal being called off? Do you really think Spain played better?

Of course there is life beyond Europe´s top 6. And yes there´s life beyond South America´s top 2 (3, cause Uruguay deserves it too). I wouldn´t think for a minute that a team beyond Europe´s top 6 is better than Chile or the above mentioned Paraguay, either nowadays or historically. Or, for sake of comprehensiveness Ecuador and Colombia.

The problem is some European football fans have always looked in the mirror, and as this thread went on and on, it emerged in stereotypes, claims of 'we have diverse depth', and so on so forth. Like that brilliant piece I read sometime in a forum that Pele couldn´t be called the king of football because he didn´t play in Europe.

Keep the berths the same, I just reacted to some posts I disagreed with thinking they were alienated, ill-manered or both.

And yes, I loved messing a bit with you guys, but this is supposed to be a friendly debate, so if I bothered you that much, I´ll refrain myself. No need to pave the way for haters...

To the person who pointed out Puskas as better than Di Stefano. Although most people won´t agree, I can see validity your claim (I prefer Di Stefano, but Puskas is right there in the same level so it is a fair argument).

Cheers,

Tele

[Pukey]

RBKalle, How is so... Uruguay win controversial? Can you explain?

You didn't watch the Uruguay vs Ghana match, then?

[Tele Santana]

I did. A player handballed, he got ejected, Ghana was awarded a PK.

Gyan missed and I was sorry for him. But what is controversial about it, really? Perhaps that Appiah was in an offside position in the play that originated the handball?

[ANDEHLSON]

Of course there is life beyond Europe´s top 6. And yes there´s life beyond South America´s top 2 (3, cause Uruguay deserves it too). I wouldn´t think for a minute that a team beyond Europe´s top 6 is better than Chile or the above mentioned Paraguay, either nowadays or historically. Or, for sake of comprehensiveness Ecuador and Colombia.

Portugal is according by the english people in this forum (and probably you) as outside the Euro top 6 so I'll use it as an example...

You said before that Portugal wouldn't be ahead of Uruguay and Chile squadwise (you were focusing on the key players but this matters too).

Well name one Chile player that would have a place in the Portuguese squad. And from Uruguay only the strikers would have a place in the Portuguese squad.

So nowadays Portugal is not behind any of the two. (Queiroz stupidity aside) (historically behind Uruguay ofc)

And saying Ecuador is above of European nations below the top 6 -->

Surprised this thread hasn't been closed yet. It's biased SA vs biased Euro...

[20LEGEND]

RBKalle,

How is so... Uruguay win controversial? Can you explain?

About Paraguay, did you look how Switzerland play historically? Did you see the match today? Did you see Spain get away with a rightful goal being called off? Do you really think Spain played better?

Of course there is life beyond Europe´s top 6. And yes there´s life beyond South America´s top 2 (3, cause Uruguay deserves it too). I wouldn´t think for a minute that a team beyond Europe´s top 6 is better than Chile or the above mentioned Paraguay, either nowadays or historically. Or, for sake of comprehensiveness Ecuador and Colombia.

The problem is some European football fans have always looked in the mirror, and as this thread went on and on, it emerged in stereotypes, claims of 'we have diverse depth', and so on so forth. Like that brilliant piece I read sometime in a forum that Pele couldn´t be called the king of football because he didn´t play in Europe.

Keep the berths the same, I just reacted to some posts I disagreed with thinking they were alienated, ill-manered or both.

And yes, I loved messing a bit with you guys, but this is supposed to be a friendly debate, so if I bothered you that much, I´ll refrain myself. No need to pave the way for haters...

To the person who pointed out Puskas as better than Di Stefano. Although most people won´t agree, I can see validity your claim (I prefer Di Stefano, but Puskas is right there in the same level so it is a fair argument).

Cheers,

Tele

Spain - Paraguay - The goal was offside, Cardozo was active and in an offside position. The worst decision in the match was probably not giving a blatent penalty to Spain (the foul on Fabregas). And I'd say Spain played better as they were for most of the game the only team trying to play.

There are plenty of teams in Europe outside of the 'top 6' that match up well historically against Chile and Paraguay also

[Tele Santana]

Sleepydude,

You saw me whining about the Dutch?

Brazil deserved to be out. Of course the Dutch used the tactics that Europeans don´t use by definition, namely diving and stuff.

But I don´t take this into account for the loss.

And you won´t see us talking about this in 4 years or forever, just like we don´t talk about the 86 foul on Carlos, the 38 penalty call, the 66 Pele hunting season, the 74 Cruyff the sportsman offside goal, etc.

That was my point.

Congrats on the win, I think you do stand a chance for winning it all.

Cheers,

Tele

[Uquillas]

And saying Ecuador is above of European nations below the top 6 -->

I don't know, the 2 times Ecuador played an european team outside the top 6 in the WC we beat them (Croatia 2002, Poland 2006)

[ANDEHLSON]

I don't know, the 2 times Ecuador played an european team outside the top 6 in the WC we won it (Croatia 2002, Poland 2006)

So because Croatia kept England out of the Euro 2008 they are better than England? :confused: (or were before 2010)

[Uquillas]

So because Croatia kept England out of the Euro 2008 they are better than England? :confused: (or were before 2010)

You are laughing at the thought of Ecuador being above a uefa team outside the top 6. I merely showed you that the 2 time Ecuador face European Teams outisde the top 6 in the WC, we beat them.