South American Football > European Football

[HOORAY HENRIK]

Rubbish example.

[jmr]

Using an all European final as an example

[Worcester City Researcher]

Can someone tell me which backwards Military Junta governed Drug-Addled Banana Republic Uquillas lives in so I can post up a small poor quality black and white photo of a mildly controversial World Cup moment in order to make a bizarrely weak point about something?

Or shall I just go with a mortuary photo of Andreas Escobar?

[Razzler]

Just go with Argentina's own shennigans in 1978

[Tele Santana]

Rhino,

Would you like us to explore further?

Ok. Let´s begin. In 1938, a penalty was called against Brazil in the semifinals versus Italy when the ball was already dead, beyond the end line of the field, after Domingos da Guia retaliated an aggression by the Italian forward. Although your books in Europe don´t mention that, it was widely reported at that time in Brazil.

Would you like also to walk you through the officiating in England 66 absolutely biased against South American sides? Ask the Argentineans. Just like London 48 Olympics, everything was done to ensure England would shine. Ask the poor German keeper.

Or perhaps you should take a look at the Italian display in 06. Or Germany´s decisive PK in 90.

Want a share of other plays?

What about the French player hitting right into Carlos, the Brazilian keeper, in 86, on purpose, as the ball slipped to Platini to tie the game.

Even amongst yourselves, Schumacher vicious tackle on Bossis (if I remeber well, or another French) in 82 semis is the closest thing to an assassination attempt I saw in a football field.

The Dutch team didn´t try any diving yesterday, huh?

This is interesting. Even in 74, the so-proclaimed great Dutch team was clearly benefited by an offsides goal against Brazil (so much sportsmanship from the intelectual Cruyff not to admit it). In 66 Pelé was hunted down like no one before of ater him with officials´eye looking the other way (talk about stuff for conspiration theories...), etc. etc.

But one thing about Brazilians (I can tell you this), is that we don´t whine about such stuff for long.

Robben played a dirty act and it paid off yesterday, resulting in Bastos´ being replaced and the play that generated the Dutch goal.

We get over it, and will be good.

On the other hand, notwhitstanding the fact that a tiny continent with half of Europe´s population, much less than half its economic power, 10 teams to represent it against 50 something still had 9 titles against 9 from Europeans, there is this kind of attitude from some - just some - short-sighted people who need to think they prevail somehow ethically by trying to specify in a particular stereotype things that are done widely, including and a lot, by Europeans as well.

I can´t feel anything but pity when I face this kind of view.

Cheers,

Tele

Oh, yes, including chaps like Ballack and Terry.

[Katarian]

Would you like also to walk you through the officiating in England 66 absolutely biased against South American sides? Ask the Argentineans. Just like London 48 Olympics, everything was done to ensure England would shine. Ask the poor German keeper.

Seeing as your profile says your 35, like most of us you've only seen '66 (and '48) on TV and heard about it second hand. So you can't really have a true idea of the officiating at those events.

[crouchaldinho]

Taking it all way too seriously to be honest.

[goon]

Europe are nothing without Antonio Valencia supplying the crosses.

[NICK_GIFF]

One thing I don't get is that some South Americans on here seem to be complaining about the fact that Europe gets 13 spots and SA only gets 4-5, basing it on the skew given to the number of WCs won by South American teams by Brazil.

However, simple maths demonstrates that South America is lucky to have more than 3-4 spots. In Conmebol there are 10 member nations - so if 5 go to the World Cup then that is every other team from the federation. UEFA has 53 member nations of which at the moment 13 qualify (14 when the WC is in Europe). That's a ratio of just under one team for every four.

Of course, there is the fact that South American teams are generally quite good and CONMEBOL should definitely keep the 4 spots...but arguing for more is pushing it.

[Razzler]

Even amongst yourselves, Schumacher vicious tackle on Bossis (if I remeber well, or another French) in 82 semis is the closest thing to an assassination attempt I saw in a football field.

Tackle/'Attack' was on Patrick Battison btw

[Razzler]

As I said, chuck all the South Americans and CONCACAF into a huge pool of lovin' and share the spots out, see how that works out

[Tele Santana]

Katarian,

It honours me and yet makes me laugh that you took the time to look at my profile.

So you´re saying that actually we can´t talk about events we didn´t see live? Congrats, you´re spot on.

As I showed you before in the most gentle possible way, I like the game and I happen to know a bit of its history not to get influenced by the first thing I read, as well as statistics like in this same thread when I let you know that almost 3 is different than 3 and actually the ratio of European and South American teams in WC Finals have been even higher than 3.

You can consult many sources - from outside of England, to be fair - that present an interesting view of how the London Olympics were setup as a competition to favour Englishmen.

The same can be said (and actually viewed, since many of the matches are to some extent available) about England 66. By the way, there´s not that much doubt the ball didn´t cross entirely the goal line.

For a non-European as you were active to introduce yourself, you seem a bit anxious to create arguments where there´s not so much to create. This claim that I can´t talk about what has been reported because I wasn´t there or alive at the time is, to be honest, a huge b-word.

On a fair account, Argentina 78 was a tournament deeply involved in a context of a setup for the home team to win.

But, look at this...the perfect European stage was the place of WC 34 and 66, twice as much right there in the mix.

In Italy 34, notwhitstanding all the accounts of everything that was done off the field for the Azurri to prevail, tied to Mussolini´s policy, there were historically accounted officiating decisions that wrongfully benefited Italy (including in the final against Czechoslovakia, I might add).

The difference with England 66 is that 34 was a Fascist-supported effort (and 78 for that matter, also a right-wing dictatorship).

The somewhat serious issue that I raised is that some people, sometimes without even being malicious or having conscience about it, tend to associate behaviors with clyche stereotypes, and this is particular common to some Europeans fans in the football context.

I find this rather sad and in the best interest of a democratic global community to react quickly to those showings, so if you want to have a grown-up but light conversation, I´ll be happy to buy you a beer once I visit your place or you come to Brazil, assuming you are eligible to drink by age (and will, of course).

Feel free to ask me directly if you need more information about my background lol.

Cheers,

Tele

[Tele Santana]

Razzler,

Thanks for the correction - I wasn´t sure it was Bossis. And it was really an awful play.

[Uquillas]

One thing I don't get is that some South Americans on here seem to be complaining about the fact that Europe gets 13 spots and SA only gets 4-5, basing it on the skew given to the number of WCs won by South American teams by Brazil.

However, simple maths demonstrates that South America is lucky to have more than 3-4 spots. In Conmebol there are 10 member nations - so if 5 go to the World Cup then that is every other team from the federation. UEFA has 53 member nations of which at the moment 13 qualify (14 when the WC is in Europe). That's a ratio of just under one team for every four.

Of course, there is the fact that South American teams are generally quite good and CONMEBOL should definitely keep the 4 spots...but arguing for more is pushing it.

Conmebol 10 countries 3 WC winners = 27.72%

UEFA 53 countries 4 WC winners = 7.54%

[Micado]

UEFA 53 countries 4 WC winners = 7.54%

Now 53 federations, but before the iron curtain came down a lot less..

[Worcester City Researcher]

Now 53 federations, but before the iron curtain came down a lot less..

Plus those like Andorra, the Faeroes and Liechtenstein who have only been in it since 1994

Seems like a prime example of being able to twist statistics to fit an agenda

[RBKalle]

even if only 1 SA made it to the semifinals, they have still had a good WC, remember, we send only 4.5 teams, where europe sends like 13?

Pfft what kind of logic is that?

South America could send just 3 teams and still have solid chances of one making to the Last Four, even if Europe sent 20 teams...

In South America there are just 10 countries taking part to the qualifiers, with maybe 5 or 6 with an actual chance of making it...

In Europe there are 40+ countries [plus a dozen of minnows], with at least half of them with a decent chance of qualifiyng, should things go their way.

Let's imagine having 10 European "Supernations" to play for 4-5 spots and then let's see who's better...

I don't know... merge Spain and Portugal, Italy and France, UK+Ireland, Scandinavia+Finland, former Yugoslavia, the Danubian nations etc... Wanna bet how that would end for Uruguay or Colombia?

Talking about "superiority" without taking numbers and geo-political situations into account is just talking about nothing.

[NICK_GIFF]

Plus those like Andorra, the Faeroes and Liechtenstein who have only been in it since 1994

Seems like a prime example of being able to twist statistics to fit an agenda

It's not like i'm the only one doing that in this thread.

[football_master_94]

That is all.

South Americans are good at volleyball, nothing else to it

[Tele Santana]

Well, Brazil is good in volleyball that´s for sure.

About ths statistics discussion, although it hasn´t been my point to advocate more berths...

Europe has sent a total of 205 sides to WCs between 1930-2006.

South America has sent a total of 66.

Titles: 9 to each (Brazil 5, Arg 2, Uru, 2) vs (Ita 4, Ger 3, Eng 1, Fra 1).

Enough said.

[Uquillas]

Well, Brazil is good in volleyball that´s for sure.

About ths statistics discussion, although it hasn´t been my point to advocate more berths...

Europe has sent a total of 205 sides to WCs between 1930-2006.

South America has sent a total of 66.

Titles: 9 to each (Brazil 5, Arg 2, Uru, 2) vs (Ita 4, Ger 3, Eng 1, Fra 1).

Enough said.

europe is quantity, SA is quality

[Candre168]

^ That proves nothing, we are talking about overall depth here. Europe nearly always dominates the Last 16's, because South America has no depth.

[Worcester City Researcher]

europe is quantity, SA is quality

What a frankly obtuse and laughable statement that is.

[Philip Rolfe]

Gotta love the way this this thread has gone.

[Candre168]

At this rate we will see three European teams and one South American, and EVEN if this was an all South American SF, ONE WC is not enough to judge by

[Worcester City Researcher]

4 teams in SF

1 from SA (out of 4 who were in QF) = 25%

3 from Europe (out of 3 who were in QF) = 100%

Proper Order

[roseboy64]

Thank you Asamoah Gyan for messing up my no South Americans prediction. >.<

[Butts]

4 teams in SF

1 from SA (out of 4 who were in QF) = 25%

3 from Europe (out of 3 who were in QF) = 100%

Proper Order

Judging by Uquillas evidence this is conclusive:D

[jmr]

Another one bites the dust

Another one bites the dust

And another one gone

And another one gone

Another one bites the dust

Hey, I'm gonna get you too

Another one bites the dust

[LewisQ]

Aggregate score in quarters: Europe 7-1 South America. So...yeah.

[SeanNUFC]

Another one bites the dust

Another one bites the dust

And another one gone

And another one gone

Another one bites the dust

Hey, I'm gonna get you too

Another one bites the dust

How perfectly fitting is this song?

[Katarian]

Tele Santana.

Bringing up refereeing bias, along with whoever posted the pictures, isn't going to add anything to any discussion. It will just degenerate in nationalism.

Refereeing standards change every time a World Cup is held. Sure there is some evidence of a bias towards the Home nation for whatever reason, crowd pressure, whatever, but it has never been proved that any referee was dishonest. In early World Cups the difference between referees from different confederations was much more pronounced, which leads to some nations felling hard done by. The truth of the matter is no nation has ever won a World Cup without decisions going their way. England might of had the luck in '66 but they certainly didn't in '86 when Argentina went on to win the World Cup after one of the worst decisions in any World Cup.

This thread has veered off in a odd manner (partly my fault I feel). My view is that Europe and South America are practically footballing equals. If we are talking about allocationing berths at World Cup finals, neither should be losing berths and certainly not on the performances at one World Cup. Europe sends too many weaker teams due to their qualifying system, if they sent their current best 13 teams to every World Cup (as the South Americans do) we could get a much more accurate placing of the strength of South America versus Europe.

[SeanNUFC]

I don't have any problem with South America btw just laughing cause of this thread.

[Tele Santana]

Candre,

SA has no numbers. It does have the depth.

So a continent that sends less than one third of the sides to overall WCs since 1930 and still has the same number of trophies that mighty Europe has isn´t deep in talent?

Those newcomers like Slovenia appear just like the same Ecuador - actually I tend to believe Ecuador and Colombia would beat them anyday. What´s the difference?

Well, here it is. Europe has more than 50 squads. And before it had 34.

South America has 10.

Still, most of your leagues are filled with South American talent, in every level I must say (not only the biggies).

So, while I´m not disputing the berth like uquillas, I gotta love how suddenly some people try to resort into stereotyping South Americans as a bunch of cheaters when compared to the holy European players or trying to prove that it is statistically logical that South America should have all its teams - or for that matter - half the teams in the final four, to claim a quality over Europe in terms of talent.

By the way, Paraguay was cheated today.

Cheers,

Tele

[Candre168]

You missed the point completely.

We are not talking about who has the best teams, we are talking about whether South America deserve another WC qualification spot. To deserve more qualification spots, the continent has to have depth.

Now Uquillas argument was that because South America at the beginning had more teams in the Last 16, they deserved another spot. Well that's BS, because we've seen this World Cup, and most of the World Cups I can remember, European teams nearly always dominate the SF's and usually QF's.

It's a silly point.

Argentina and Brazil have been historically great, but apart from that, South America has no one who ever does anything apart from MAYBE Uruguay. I mean, Europe has been able to send Turkey, Croatia and Sweden to WC Semi Finals in recent WC's, if South America were so full of depth then why haven't we seen Colombia or Paraguay out do one of those teams?

[aggressive minor]

This thread

[masteR+_+]

That is all.

"Identify the picture that has got nothing to do with the other two"?

[Tele Santana]

RBKalle,

All South American sides except Venezuela already qualified to the WC through qualifying round.

Sorry but your post was wrong.

This time we could say 8 teams could have gone, because Peru and Bolivia were too fragile. But I am pretty sure both of them, with a bit of luck, good work/coaching can challenge for spots in 2014.

That´s pretty much at least 80% competitive sites.

In Europe, nothing close to that.

And again, the 6th best side in SA, arguably Ecuador, would be easily among the top 20 of Europe, with a genuine chance to compete.

[Worcester City Researcher]

You missed the point completely.

We are not talking about who has the best teams, we are talking about whether South America deserve another WC qualification spot. To deserve more qualification spots, the continent has to have depth.

Now Uquillas argument was that because South America at the beginning had more teams in the Last 16, they deserved another spot. Well that's BS, because we've seen this World Cup, and most of the World Cups I can remember, European teams nearly always dominate the SF's and usually QF's.

It's a silly point.

Argentina and Brazil have been historically great, but apart from that, South America has no one who ever does anything apart from MAYBE Uruguay. I mean, Europe has been able to send Turkey, Croatia and Sweden to WC Semi Finals in recent WC's, if South America were so full of depth then why haven't we seen Colombia or Paraguay out do one of those teams?

I look forward to Bolivia and Peru making it to at least the semi finals in 2014

[Uquillas]

Argentina and Brazil have been historically great, but apart from that, South America has no one who ever does anything apart from MAYBE Uruguay. I mean, Europe has been able to send Turkey, Croatia and Sweden to WC Semi Finals in recent WC's, if South America were so full of depth then why haven't we seen Colombia or Paraguay out do one of those teams?

wow lets see, SA has 3 WC winning countries out of 10 in conmebol.

Europe has 4 WC winning countries out of 53 in uefa.

yeah, I mean Europe sure dominates , not to mention as of right now they are tied in titles, despite europe sending more teams.

And lastly Europe hosted 10 WC's giving them home advantage as opposed to 4 in SA.

[Candre168]

wow lets see, SA has 3 WC winning countries out of 10 in conmebol.

Europe has 4 WC winning countries out of 53 in uefa.

yeah, I mean Europe sure dominates , not to mention as of right now they are tied in titles, despite europe sending more teams.

And lastly Europe hosted 10 WC's giving them home advantage as opposed to 4 in SA.

Did you not read my post? I'm not talking about who wins WC's, I'm talking about depth. Please don't reply to my posts if you aren't going to read them properly first.

I say this as a fan of South American club football (I prefer it to European football, and think it's more competitive), but your thread is full of jealousy and Euro hate. Get over it.

[djvandyke]

So, South America did sh*t in the end. Europe have 75% in the semis and the one South American side are only there because of horrific cheating.

[englandmanager]

uquillas you constantly type garbage

for the love of global warming please stop

[Uquillas]

Did you not read my post? I'm not talking about who wins WC's, I'm talking about depth. Please don't reply to my posts if you aren't going to read them properly first.

I say this as a fan of South American club football (I prefer it to European football, and think it's more competitive), but your thread is full of jealousy and Euro hate. Get over it.

Euro hate? because SA has better football throughout history compared to europe?

So do you have SA jealousy and hate because you think the opposite?

Best players in the history of Futbol

1. Pele

2. Maradona

3. Di Stefano

what do they have in common?

[englandmanager]

Euro hate? because SA has better football throughout history compared to europe?

So do you have SA jealousy and hate because you think the opposite?

Best players in the history of Futbol

1. Pele

2. Maradona

3. Di Stefano

what do they have in common?

how convenient no van basten, zidane, figo, cruyff?

just out of interest if klose beats the all-time goalscoring record for the world cup is he the worlds greatest footballer?

[Sleepydude]

What a pointless thread. Which of course degenerates into a SA vs. Europe shouting match... and I get the feeling the OP was just trying to troll.

Oh, and I thought this was funny:

The Dutch team didn´t try any diving yesterday, huh?

(...)

Even in 74, the so-proclaimed great Dutch team was clearly benefited by an offsides goal against Brazil (so much sportsmanship from the intelectual Cruyff not to admit it)

(...)

But one thing about Brazilians (I can tell you this), is that we don´t whine about such stuff for long.

How long? Because I see you whining about the Dutch all over these forums.

[georginho_juventusygr]

I agree for a world qualifying sections. We have 208 football associations. We divide them into 32 groups: 16 groups consist of 7 teams each and the other 16 consist of 6 teams each.

[Candre168]

Get the point in your head, it doesn't matter that Argentina and Brazil are historically so brilliant, as long as the likes of Paraguay and Colombia are so irrelevant, South America does not deserve another qualifying spot.

[SeanNUFC]

uquillas you constantly type garbage

for the love of global warming please stop

global warming? ahhh, so thats why its been boiling hot lately.

[Uquillas]

how convenient no van basten, zidane, figo, cruyff?

just out of interest if klose beats the all-time goalscoring record for the world cup is he the worlds greatest footballer?

fabulous players no doubt, Van Basten is is one of my favorite, but are you saying they are better than the top 3 I posted? or even better than Pele or Maradona?