Attacking with the Tactics Creator: Discussion

[SFraser]

Time for a good discussion in this forum I think and what better discussion to have than discussing attacking football through the Tactics Creator?

I'll kick things off by saying first that the Tactics Creator is a quality addition to the game. If you are really thorough you can learn in a weekend what would have taken many months previously about tactical tricks, tweaks, details etc. and you can quickly change tactics to any shape and function you have in your mind in a couple of clicks. All of this is known stuff, but I want to repeat it because of how impressed I am by it.

What the Tactics Creator most importantly adds to the game in my opinion is the ease of constructing asymmetrical tactics, and asymmetrical tactics are the bane of the flat back four.

This is my first foray into FM10. No edits, no reloads, no cheating. Playing as United and using only the Tactics Creator and my hard earned knowledge of FM and the United players and system, I have managed 6 clean sheets and 25 goals in 7 games.

The key to the Tactics Creator is that it keeps your positions playing together in a framework and doesn't allow individuals to wreck the overall shape of the team. Ontop of that it allows you to experiment with positions and roles and watch the results quickly and easily. This leaves the manager only having to deal with shape and roles and playing philosophy, and leaves the manager in a position to see quickly and experiment quickly. One of the other major aspects of the Tactics Creator is that it enables the manager to more easily see and understand the details of transition play from defense to attack caused by mentality and forward run combinations.

Shape, roles and transition play are the fundamental elements of attacking play and the Tactics Creator lets you play with those elements directly as single options rather than the sliders forcing you to play with the micro-details of individual aspects of behaviour that make up those elements. The different shapes, roles and aspects of transition play are what I would like to discuss in this thread using the Tactics Creator.

This is a screenshot of my United formation, a pretty basic 4-2-4. Looking at it you would think the formation plays out pretty obviously with 2 attacking widemen dribbling down the flanks to play in two strikers, one of which might just be dropping deep. The two midfielders will be exposed out wide so will sit deep and the fullbacks will support the wingers but avoid being exposed.

Thanks to the ease of use of the Tactics Creator though the truth is completely different.

GK:- Goalkeeper Defend

RB:- Fullback Support

RCB:- Ball Playing Defender Cover

LCB:- Ball Playing Defender Defend

LB:- Wingback Support

RCM:- Advanced Playmaker Support

LCM:- Advanced Playmaker Attack

AMR:- Inside Forward Support

AML:- Advanced Playmaker Support

RCF:- Complete Forward Attack

LCF:- Complete Forward Support

What occurs here thanks to Mentality is that Ferdinand drops slightly deeper, Berbatov advances higher up the pitch, and Rooney, Giggs and Evra contract around Carrick. When United win the ball Evra, Carrick and Rooney all advance from deep, Giggs and Berbatov hold their positions, and Valencia has the choice to either cut inside into space or drive down the flank or run ahead of Berbatov depending on where he moves to. Giggs and Carrick become the advanced playmakers for Evra and Rooney running forward, while Carrick and Berbatov become the advanced playmakers for Rooney and Valencia running forward.

The team ends up playing with 3 central defenders with Ferdinand playing deepest, supported by Fletcher ahead of Ferdinand in midfield. Giggs and Berbatov hold their positions and roam while Carrick, Valencia, Evra and Rooney advance forward. Valencia and Rooney become the most advanced players running from deep, with Evra overlapping down the left and Giggs, Carrick and Berbatov supporting from deeper.

The key attacking threats come from Carrick playing advanced central with the passing choice of Evra, Giggs, Rooney, Berbatov and Valencia. There is the threat from Berbatov laying the ball off to Rooney or Valencia bombing forward for Rooney or Valencia to cross the ball to each other. There is the threat from Valencia to cross to the back post for Rooney, play in Berbatov, cut back to Carrick, or link up with Fletcher. There is the threat from Giggs and Berbatov to dribble past the defenders left isolated by the runs of Carrick, Rooney, Valencia and Evra. There is the threat from Giggs to play in Valencia or Berbatov on their strongest feet inside the box, or play in Rooney from deep as he bombs forward, or play in Evra on the overlap. The threat from Evra is the pass short to Giggs on the edge of the box, to cut back for Carrick, to cross to Rooney at the near post, to cross for Berbatov deep in the centre, to cross to Valencia at the far post.

That's what I have done with Manchester United using the TC so far, since getting the game at Christmas. Even with my quality results I can spot some large holes in my team, and I have not gone anywhere near teams like Arsenal or Barcelona yet. At the same time I have seen some top quality details easily through the TC and spent my time building top quality attacking moves instead of micro managing sliders.

If you have constructed some quality attacking play using the Tactics Creator then please share the details.

[lurkingwithintent]

Nice post SFraser.

As far as I can see (might have missed it) you didn't mention in particular why you chose to have Vidic on 'cover' and Ferdinand on 'defend'. Would you mind explaining your reasoning for this?

[TheUnderdog]

I now play with the TC exclusively and don't touch the sliders. I've used the squad analysis tool to determine which roles my players are best suited for and set them as such. I change the line up slightly for home and away with more supportive players replacing attacking players for difficult away games. I won't just change their role, I change the line up to suit the tactics.

I also change players with different roles if I need a change in tactics which is something I have never done before whilst playing FM/CM. For example, if I'm struggling to break a team down using a target man and poacher, I may substitute one of the players for another with a different role. This replicates real life a lot more - I always use to substitute a player but he'd still have the same instructions as the one he's replaced, why that should make much difference is beyond me when I think about it now.

[Tafse]

Very interesting. I also really like the TC and use it to form and tweak my tactics. However, looking at your setup with 5 players on support duty I wonder what Philosophy and Starting Strategy you are using?

[David Beckham_7]

A way of making your players playin' nice football, is to make sure the players, in a particular "line" are staggered. What i meant by "lines" are the defense line, the MC lines, the AM lines and the forward lines. By staggering them in a particular zone, you are creating space, which means that it's much easier for the players to find one another with passes, and of course exposing the AI, especially if the AI plays a high pressing game. I am lazy to go in depth so i think i should end here.

[Yorkex]

Download link?

[yonko]

To see this tread makes me happy. It was about time somebody started one about the Tactics Creator. I find it so useful and I only wish it had even more roles for players or it didn't restrict certain roles only to certain positions. And some roles could be set-up a little bit better. But that's OK, I still can manually adjust one or two sliders to either fix this or fit my players/playing idea.

What I've been doing most of the time since I have the game, is trying to set-up a nice effective possession based attacking playing style like Barca IRL. Naturally I've been doing that mostly using Barcelona in the game. It's much easier to do so after the 10.2 patch.

My formation is 4-1-2-2-1 with Fluid Philosophy+ Control Strategy. Also shorter passing, default creative freedom, press more, default tackling, zonal marking, drill crosses and more roaming. Then the individual instructions go like this:

position - role - duty

-----------------------

GK - sweeper keeper - defend

DR - wingback - attack

DL - fullback - attack

DCr - ball playing defender - defend

DCl - center defender - cover

DM - deep-lying playmaker - defend

MCr - advanced playmaker - support (sometimes - center midfielder role - support)

MCl - advanced playmaker - attack (sometimes - center midfielder - attack)

AMR - inside forward - attack

AML - inside forward - attack

FC - complete forward - support

I've started from there without any manual tweaks. But after watching enough games on full mode, I've adjusted manually some of the instructions to accomplish the playing style I'm aiming for - high % possession and passing with a few good CCC's. In my current save with Barca after 17 games I average:

55% Possession ( 65% the highest)

75% Pass Completion ( 82% the highest)

3-4 CCC's ( 7 the most)

2.9 goals scored (50 overall) ( 6 goals the most)

0.2 goals conceded (4 over all) ( 2 goals the most - Spanish Super Cup second leg after leading 4-0)

And that's without allowing transfer budgets in the first transfer window. Still, I would like to improve my possession closer to 60%, my pass completion closer to 80% and my CCC's closer to 5 per game. I will continue tweaking my tactic but I'm open to suggestion from you guys. Constant short passing + slow tempo are the keys it seems. Also in certain situations higher normal tempo + high timewasting do help too. I'm more focused on possession and passing % than CCC's though....

That's all from me for now. Later!

[RTHerringbone]

A way of making your players playin' nice football, is to make sure the players, in a particular "line" are staggered. What i meant by "lines" are the defense line, the MC lines, the AM lines and the forward lines. By staggering them in a particular zone, you are creating space, which means that it's much easier for the players to find one another with passes, and of course exposing the AI, especially if the AI plays a high pressing game. I am lazy to go in depth so i think i should end here.

I completely agree with this and you can extend it further by mixing up the role of players in a "line".

If you play 4-4-2 with four defending defenders, 4 supporting midfielders, and 2 attacking forwards, there is no transition of play between the horizontal strata of the team.

You add fluidity by mixing up roles: have a supporting CM and an attacking/defending CM.

Have a stopper CB and a cover CB.

Particularly important is a staggered mentality up front to avoid the same players chasing the same pass.

[mdornukgi]

Ok so how would the mixing up the roles to create fluidity be used in an asymmetric 4-2-3-1 as the positions of the players apart from the back four already are staggered.

I'm going to go along the lines of, all positions are already staggered so most players should apart from the two CB should have a support role to hold this staggered positioning. Maybe just have the CF on attack, though i'm worried he'll get left alone up front. Just for reference asymmetric looks like this

---------CF----------

-----AMC-------AMR-

ML---------MC-------

---------DM---------

LB---CB----CB----RB

I used the formation and settings from the TT&F10 for Man Utd 2007-09. This with a few personal tweaks got me to the prem with southampton, but i guess the step up in more quality opposition has exposed flaws to this formation that i cannot seem to counter. If anyone has some good ideas i would be most grateful.

[liam crane]

fantastic post fraser was a great read!! i do have one question for you tho, as you state you are using the TC and using the roles to specify where and how you want your players to set up and play do you change there mentalities at all or do you just use the default mentalities that the roles give you?

many thanks

[stuartM]

yonko, have you got any screenie's of your success cause that sounds really impressive

[yonko]

yonko, have you got any screenie's of your success cause that sounds really impressive

I can't post them. I've tried before to post screenshots but it didn't work, so I have given up on that. I rather spend more time describing instructions and have good discussion going.

Just set up your team like mine, explained above, add short passing for everyone and slow tempo. Then watch a few matches on full mode and see what needs adjusting.

I think is always best if someone wants to play certain formation and tactic, to start from the basic set up the TC offers with Philosophy, Strategy, Roles, Duties, etc. Then analyze and adjust.

[SFraser]

Attacking with the Tactics Creator: Part 2

This thread has been a bit dead recently and rather than start a new one on the same issues I thought I would resurrect this one from the grave.

For future knowledge I am using Patch 1.2, no modifications to any part of the game, and I am still playing as United albeit on a different save.

Hull City: Old Trafford, February, Light Drizzle, 5 degrees C, No Wind.

After an impressive run of form interfered by a few horrible results such as losing 1-0 to bottom of the table Birmingham and 9th placed Liverpool 4-3 away, I am currently 13 points clear after 25 games in the Premier League and need only 26 points or 9 more wins to secure my 19th title. 13 games left, 9 wins required, I am counting down the victories and hoping for a few draws from the chasing pack.

Today is not all it seems however. My recent form has been not been as good at my early form, Wayne Rooney the scorer of 24 goals in 32 games is injured. Rio Ferdinand has just recovered from a knock and is tired and a risk with the European Cup Quarter Final First Leg in ten days. Valencia is continuing to be a giant pain in the backside with his Ambitious personality that refuses to knuckle down and perform under my management.

Everything else however is great. Players are in general on-form. Everyone else that has not just recovered from a long injury looks fit and ready, my new signings are playing well and developing well, but above all else I am starting to get to really understand the Tactics Creator, minus the odd drunken "Overload" against arch rivals.

So I face Hull City at Old Trafford. Should be 3 points but then it is my job to make sure of 3 points.

My Opposition scout informs me that Hull regularly play a defensive 4-4-2 and draw the opponent onto them before attempting the counter-attack. Would I expect anything less, especially at Old Trafford?

My Backroom staff inform me that Hull struggle against normal width and do well against teams that play 4-4-2. So what they really mean is that they have lost most games to teams that play neither very narrow or very wide, or in other words most of the rest of the League. They do well against 4-4-2 while playing 4-4-2 so they drop a striker into midfield and make 5 in midfield when defending.

I could have told them this but it is always nice to be sure.

So Hull City are likely to play a defensive 4-4-2 against me, dropping a forward deep into midfield, play a possession game, counter-attack me, and generally be a battling pain in the neck that I have to defeat. I am expected to defeat them, but it is up to me build a plan for defeating them. What will I do? Well first I will look at their team screen and formation.

Hull City have a squad of 26 players, 7 of whom are injured or unavailable. 18 of these 19 players will turn up at my stadium on the pitch or on the bench and 3 of them are goalkeepers.

Hull City are very predictable in terms of who will start. The overwhelming majority of players from the last game will start my next game, due to their quality and fitness. There is no guessing game here, all I need to do is study Hull City and defeat them.

The conditions to do so are nigh on perfect. Large pitch, great weather. Let the games begin.

Hull City

Due to fitness, appearances, injuries, league position, fixture congestion and manager tactical preferences I can be sure that the formation and lineup Hull played last, six days ago, is very likely to be their next starting lineup. Managers in FM rarely change their preferences when not forced to and this team is not forced to.

The formation, lineup, and tactical plan of Hull City is very predictable. They will play 4-4-2 dropping a striker deep into midfield, playing a defensive counter-attacking game. Their entire plan is to produce more players in midfield, keep players back, and counter-attack down the flanks.

The precise nature of this "tactical ploy" is equally obvious. AI teams usually drop the Right Striker while keeping the Left Striker advanced. This is shown to be true by the exact attributes of the players position in Hulls 4-4-2.

According the Hull City tactical team screen, they play a 4-4-2. According to my scouts they drop a striker deep. According to my experience it is the right Striker they drop deep. The Hull City tactics screen shows this:

The Left Striker is fast, strong, fit and better at scoring goals than anything else. The Right Striker is fast, hardworking, clever and as good at passing as he is at scoring. The right Striker is the obvious choice for dropping deep.

The Right CM is fit, hardworking but none too great at all things midfield in the Premier League. The Left CM is hardworking, clever, great at making forward runs, and excellent at Passing. Our thinking is confirmed. The right CM will drop deep and the right FC will drop deep, the left CM will advance forward and link up with the right FC to provide the creative threat to the striker.

The Left Midfielder is Hardworking, Brave, Aggressive but a bit thick. Excellent cover for the advancing Left CM. The Right Midfielder is Intelligent, Creative, Technical. An excellent choice on the outside of the deep Right CM.

The Left Back is smart, fast, calm, technically good. Excellent cover for the thick Left Midfield. The Right Back is extremely fast, Brave, Aggressive, Determined. Excellent support for the clever Right Midfielder.

The Left Centreback is Aggressive, Brave, but not the best of the two Centrebacks and not so good at defending. A good choice to play Stopper behind the advanced LCM, and with the clever Right Back covering him.

The Right Centreback is the best defender. Not very good still, but better than the other and better able to mop up attacks that the Aggressive LB and RCB miss.

The entire formation is perfect set piece 4-4-2 with a withdrawn striker. It could not be more obvious if it tried.

Manchester United

The players of Manchester United are superior, but the task is not to beat one player with another but to beat a team system with another system. It is my task to beat a defensive 4-4-2 with superior players.

The opponents formation will have 3 players in midfield and the flanks will be covered by a combination of intelligence and aggression on both sides.

Hull City might not be Barcelona but they have intelligence + aggression down the flanks with a staggered 3 man central midfield in defense supported by a Stopper/Sweeper combination, and a great attacking system of two playmakers behind one striker supported by skill on one flank and aggression on the other, with a DMC mopping up behind.

They might not have my players, but they make a good fist of football.

So what is the plan? Are you going to bother building a formation against Hull City, are you going to bother trying? Or are you going to beat them at their own game? Turn their tactics against them and show them why you are the best in the country?

The plan is this:

A 4-4-2.

Exactly the same formation that they play but with huge tactical differences. And yet also some huge tactical similarities.

The start of my formation is the heart of my defence. They are going to play with ultimately one fast and rather dim goalscorer. So I have Wes Brown who is my fastest defender playing exactly opposite him and playing the Cover role. Wes Brown should beat this guy all the time and he has the pace to make up for other players mistakes.

They are going to drop their Right Striker deep into midfield, so I play Vidic as Stopper. Not only will he be more likely to attack balls in the air which he is better at than Brown, but he will advance higher up the pitch and tackle more aggressively. Their Striker drops deep, my exact opposite Centreback moves forward and tackles hard. On the other side of Wes Brown we have that really dangerous CM of Hull that is great at passing and movement. So I have a defender that is really strong, quick and intelligent in equal measure playing high up the pitch and aggressively. Wes Brown covers the striker, Vidic attacks the deep lying forward from CB, Evans attacks the advancing midfielder from RB.

The next key element in my team is Fletcher. The problem here that Fletcher solves is that the Hull Left Winger can attack Evans, who is really clever and fast and strong, while he is dealing with the Hull Left CM. By telling Fletcher who is has high Workrate, Anticipation, Concentration etc. to close down quickly and man mark then I have two hardworking and bright and tough players dealing with Hulls Aggressive and dumb winger and Intelligent and slow midfielder, and I can also tell Fletcher to perform an additional function of getting forward and getting into space.

Fletcher is a box to box midfielder. The Hull Left CM cannot track him, but Fletcher can track the Hull Left CM, and even if he fails then the quality of Evans at RB can handle all but the best link-up play between the Hull LCM and LM.

Fletcher is in effect patrolling the gap infront of Brown while also playing an attacking role. Evans is defending the flank of Brown but is up against a dim and slow winger and a decent attacking midfielder. I am confident we should win this zone and also provide a threat the opponent cannot handle. The threat is not simply the attacking movement of Fletcher, but what it means for the whole team.

On the other flank Evra is up against Giovanni, the Hull RM. Evra is playing very attacking but should be able to cope with Giovanni. However if Evra fails to cope with Giovanni, then Giovanni can play the ball to the deep FC and receive it back, causing mayhem.

This is why Carrick is set to Deep Lying Playmaker. He does not advance forward, he sits deep and pings the ball about. His defensive role is to protect Vidic while Evra gets back, because after all Giovanni is the most dangerous player in Hull City.

Now unless Hull throw any spanners into the works here we have accounted for their attacking threat while also giving several of our defensive players an attacking duty.

The next issue is how we attack Hull City.

On each flank Hull City have a combination of intelligence and guts. I have also given each flank a combination of intelligence and guts. I have Giggs and Evra on one flank and Nani and Evans on the other. This is pace, intelligence, hardwork and skill on one flank with pace intelligence, hardwork and skill on the other.

The crucial difference is that Evans stays deep and Nani goes forward, while Giggs stays deep and Evra goes forward. This is because Hull City rely upon one deep lying midfielder to protect their defence and one aggressive Centreback to help him.

The Hull City deep striker is faced with Vidic and Carrick defending against him. The deep lying Hull City midfielder has Carrick attacking him, Giggs attacking him, but also Marquinhos who I play as Trequartista. Marquinhos is a decent creative forward and he is playing directly opposite Hull City's deepest Centreback. By playing him as Trequartista and Giggs as Winger Support and Carrick as Deep Lying Playmaker I have 3 quality players attacking the space that the deep defender, deep midfielder and deep striker are trying to defend. Not only can they not attack, but if they try to close down any player they are going to create gaps, whereas I can close down at will.

As soon as they close down they open up space for Fletcher or Berbatov. Fletcher faces their attacking midfielder and Berbatov faces their aggressive Centreback. Marquinhos drops deep and Berbatov advanced forward and makes Forward runs behind the advanced Centreback.

My attacking system is Nani attacking forward and staying wide, Berbatov moving forward and into space, Fletcher moving forward and into space, all on the exact same side where their WORST defenders and defensive system exists. On the side where all their "cunning tricks" work I move Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Giggs and Marquinhos into roughly the same space, linking up with Fletcher and Berbatov.

If however Hull City defend my attack down their weakest side, which is also by the way where I allow their weakest attacking strength to attack me, then I have Michael Carrick sitting deep and pinging attacking passes to Evra, Giggs, Marquinhos, Berbatov, Fletcher or Nani which is a very balanced set of 2 Pacey wide players, 2 narrower playmakers, and 2 Creative strikers.

Becuase Marquinhos is a Trequartista, he also has the Wideplay instruction "Moves into Channels". Not only will he drop into space infront of the deepest Hull Centreback, but he will also pull wide to the Left Touchline when the situation calls for it. This means that even if Giggs, Carrick, Evra and Vidic are defending, Marquinhos will pull wide while Berbatov moves centrally, and Nani attacks quickly up the right.

This gives me an incredibly potent and well balanced counter-attack, on the rare occassion that Hull City press me back.

[chronic haze]

superb absolutely superb i also noticed how th ai always se up but the way you described it was awsome thankyou

[chronic haze]

what team instructions would you use

[SFraser]

what team instructions would you use

Attacking, Very Fluid, More Roaming, More Expressive.

There are some interesting connotations with Touchline Shouts strategies, for example you could go to Control with Get Ball Forward which would reduce Mentality and therefore player positioning but increase the directness of passing so the ball goes forward earlier to deeper players.

It is still an attacking system, but attacking in terms of passing rather than movement. Whereas Attacking Strategy without "Get Ball Forward" is more attacking positioning with less attacking passing.

[SFraser]

To be fair I was only ten minutes into the game with this formation when I wrote this post. So far it has produced the best football I have seen all season, and I might upload a PKM for people to download, for sheer footballing joy if they want to watch it.

[chronic haze]

i think with a bit of time put in this stratagy this could really work

[RT--]

The Left Midfielder is Hardworking, Brave, Aggressive but a bit thick

Ha, that's a pretty good summary of Stephen Hunt actually.

[RT--]

I'd definitely be interested in the PKM, too.

Out of interest, do you tend to adjust your setup when the AI (as it inevitably does) swap their attackers around? I guess they only swap personnel, rather than player roles, so it shouldn't disrupt your system too much.

[chronic haze]

honestly i think u could be onto some sought of plug and play diablo tactic here

[TerrierBhoy7]

Well, this has certainly affected the way that I play from now on.

[chronic haze]

i am trying this with classic slider mode i think a bit of tweeking and advive we could do something here guys what oi do you suggest

[ZdlR]

from me, and a request for the PKM, please.

[stuartM]

great post, you really opened my eye's. i used to be one of those people who used a plug and play tactic and nut adjust it at all, now i have learned that in order to create the perfect tactic, you have to tweak it against who your opponent is, it makes sense really, i mean would fergie play the same 4-4-2 against chelsea as he did against wolves??? another great post Sfraser:thup:

[chronic haze]

could you possibly post a link of this tactic please SFraser

[Keniris]

I prefer a 433 Mourinho setup (or Barça formation), but I never get the FC to score unless he is an absolute beast à la Drogba, Torres, Ibra etc..... Using less superb teams, it seems the 433 is not the way to go if you would like your striker to score.

Any ideas on how to counter that?

[SFraser]

Well the PKM turns out to be alot less spectactular in football quality terms than I said in the first half. I think I may have got a bit enthuisiastic with my praise in my previous post.

That said there are some good moves, and you can see in each move and the general pattern of play my tactics at work attempting to produce the precise plans I constructed to play Hull. You will see my deep playmaker in acres of space, you will see what is effectively a giant slant of my formation in attack towards the left flank attempting to play controlled football around the space left by the deepest striker and the deep midfielder and the covering centreback of Hull. You will see what is effectively a constant front 3 playing ahead of 3 deeper playmakers with players moving in and out of the support and attack phases or from wide to central positions at different times in the move.

You will also see that the young Brazilian Striker Marquinhos from Internacional is an absolute steal at £5.75 million. Berbatov mk II without the attitude and a bit more pace and agility.

The first half is my tactics working, perhaps not spectacularly, but effectively against an opponents formation that was anticipated and countered. In that first half I should have scored many more goals than the one goal I did score.

The second half is an education to every Football Fan in what happens when you do not adapt your team to deal with changes made by an opponent. Hull City alter their formation slightly and shift key players into different positions and we end up with no less 7 (!) goals in the second half, for a final score of 5-3 to United. The opponent changed his formation and playstyle, I did not change mine and the entire pattern of the game changed with space opening up all over the pitch but most especially in the key areas of Hulls RCM who no longer dropped deep but played an attacking game and with a pacey forward ahead of him. Most of the goals in the second half come from those precise areas and you can see the outcomes stemming directly from the precise tactical causes in just about every move each side makes. Defenders did not leave that match without getting the hairdryer in both dressing rooms.

So don't expect to see that kind of football I was gushing about in my previous post. I must have got caught up in a particularly exciting five minutes of football in the first half. What you will see however is Tactics in action from the congested yet controlled half of dominance by my side in the first half, the wide open gaps galore goalfest of the second half caused by Hull swapping their Deep CM and Deep ST for an attacking CM and attacking ST and my failure to adapt my tactics to the altered areas of space and angles of attack.

It is overall one of the most crystal clear examples of tactics at work for good and bad for both sides in two completely different halves of football you are likely to see.

Manchester United versus Hull City PKM

great post, you really opened my eye's. i used to be one of those people who used a plug and play tactic and nut adjust it at all, now i have learned that in order to create the perfect tactic, you have to tweak it against who your opponent is, it makes sense really, i mean would fergie play the same 4-4-2 against chelsea as he did against wolves??? another great post Sfraser:thup:

If you watch the PKM you will see what tweaking tactics means. Hull City tweaked theirs very slightly for the second half and produced an absolute goal fest, simply by swapping the players and roles of the two CM's and two strikers.

[stuartM]

sorry to be a noob but how do you watch a PKM

[smex36]

I think it has got to a point that the game is TOO difficult and not enjoyable. Too many aspects to control and learn about to find it fun. You have to be prepared to change tactics several times per match and despite this see when the ubersmart AI makes deadly moves to ruin the match.Someone who disagrees?

[chronic haze]

i do think tho there is something to work on here keep with it

[SFraser]

I think it has got to a point that the game is TOO difficult and not enjoyable. Too many aspects to control and learn about to find it fun. You have to be prepared to change tactics several times per match and despite this see when the ubersmart AI makes deadly moves to ruin the match.Someone who disagrees?

Well I disagree.

I don't agree that watching a football match from start to finish is not enjoyable even if it is a computer game. What is the point in playing Football Manager if you don't like watching football matches?

And I don't agree that the AI is ubersmart and makes deadly moves to ruin the match. The AI is very basic and even though FM10 gives the AI a much large number of options, those options are not "studied and considered and planned and thought out" by an ubersmart AI, they are simply used according to some very basic and entireally unchanging rules.

The example my PKM shows is the AI swapping the two CM players and two CM roles. Now while I might swap players and roles in my team, I do it according to the opponents shape in an attempt to exploit space and create gaps I can score from. The AI is completely unaware of how your team is actually playing. All it is aware of is that it is failing, playing a better side and in need of goal. So it swaps around an attacking and defensive role in the centre of the pitch in the attempt to catch me out, and it does so but leaves giant gaps in it's defence that allow me to score an additional 4 goals.

It didn't work anything out. It simply swapped some roles in complete ignorance in the hope of catching me asleep. I won the first half by a single goal and I won the second half by a second goal, the only difference was that in the second half they got 3 goals and I got 4 goals.

That is not an uber AI. That is a basic AI. I didn't change anything in my team apart from substitutions and I still scored 4 goals. I could have watched only the goal highlights in that match and still have acheived the same result.

But I like football so I watched the entire match in 2-D Classic replay, and I am watching my next match against Portsmouth in 2-D Classic full match replay, and I will watch every single match of my entire career in the same full match 2-D replay. Only because I like football and I like this game and the football this game produces is something I find enjoyable to watch as the virtual manager of my team.

[DocSander]

...and I will watch every single match of my entire career in the same full match 2-D replay. Only because I like football and I like this game and the football this game produces is something I find enjoyable to watch as the virtual manager of my team.

Takin' the words right out of my mouth!

BTW: Nice thread SFraser, respect for not only coming out and presenting what's good about your performance, but delivering a critical appraisal of your own tactical setup... Did you get the Ambitious Valencia straightened out? I find this type of player highly susceptible to pressure. Spot these type of players among your opponents and do your thing by praising them pre-match, comment on them as being a threat to your team and see then knuckle under the pressure... Just a side-thought to your thread here... Regards!

[SCIAG]

sorry to be a noob but how do you watch a PKM

Click on the match's scoreline, either in a news item or your fixture list. You can save the PKM, and watch it any time, by going to "View Match" at the title screen.

could you possibly post a link of this tactic please SFraser

He's told you everything you need to step it up. Regardless, the point of this thread is flexibility, and knowing how you use the TC to exploit possible flaws in your opponent's tactic whilst negating their strengths. Using that exact tactic will not get you the results SFraser has achieved, especially as they are for Man United.

[mista T]

The tactics creator is a revelation. I don't play disjointed, inconsistent football any more. It's also much easier to counter AI tactics as you can mould your own tactics to undo theirs.

[Taunton]

According the Hull City tactical team screen, they play a 4-4-2. According to my scouts they drop a striker deep. According to my experience it is the right Striker they drop deep.

How do you know this?

How do you read this from the scout report?

Excellent thread by the way. You are pointing out a lot of potential in the TC that make my more optimistic about this game. I have slowly gained more success by giving more thoughts to player roles, but with your insight I see that it is possible to make a lot more of it.

But I really would like to break the scouting report "code"

[SFraser]

How do you know this?

How do you read this from the scout report?

Hull City play a defensive 4-4-2 and play well against teams playing a 4-4-2.

The only way a bottom of the league team playing a defensive 4-4-2 can do well against 4-4-2 is if they drop a striker into midfield. This outnumbers the midfielders in a 4-4-2 allowing Hull City to play a possession game and also have more players in defence.

Hull City do not struggle against 4-4-2 even though they are bottom of the league, they do not match 4-4-2 as this information has popped up in my Pre-Match Chat, they obviously do well against 4-4-2 while playing 4-4-2. The only answer is that Hull City drop a striker into midfield, which is what the AI has done for donkeys years.

The PKM I posted not only proves this assumption, it shows just how much this assumption and the individual details of this assumption matter.

You don't have to "break the code" you just have to apply a tiny bit of attention to it and it all makes complete sense from a tactical perspective.

The Pre-Match Advice doesn't tell you nonesense, it tells you simple observations that make a huge amount of tactical sense.

Nothing you couldn't anticipate if you know your FM, but very helpful to the casual player if he has the least amount of problem solving skills.

[AcidBurn]

I found a 4-2-3-1 to be surprisingly attacking, I got 84 goals in the EPL with it as Everton and in the cup got a few scorelines where I scored more than 5 goals in one match.

GK - Defend

RB - Fullback - Auto

LB - Fullback - Auto

CBs - Central Defenders - Defend

CM - Ball Winning Mid - Defend

CM - Central Midfielder - Support

AML and AMR - Winger - Attack

AMC - Attacking CM - Attack

ST - Targetman/Poacher depending on what striker I use - Attack

I would change the AMR and AML depending on what players were available sometimes I would play them as inside forwards but mostly I would use wingers 90 percent of the time. The Everton team also have Tim Cahill at AMC with his ability to head I set him to targetman and got him into the box as much as possible this results in him scoring 20 plus goals.

My problem was the defence was a little unstable at times although we scored 84 we conceded 34. So I moved the more defensive CM to DMC as an anchor man and changed the central midfielder to a ball winning mid. Seems to be doing the trick so far this season.

The team instructions were control and fluid, shorter passing, more roaming and more expressive although I did alter some of the creative freedom in the advanced player instructions.

[SCIAG]

Hull City play a defensive 4-4-2 and play well against teams playing a 4-4-2.

The only way a bottom of the league team playing a defensive 4-4-2 can do well against 4-4-2 is if they drop a striker into midfield. This outnumbers the midfielders in a 4-4-2 allowing Hull City to play a possession game and also have more players in defence.

Hull City do not struggle against 4-4-2 even though they are bottom of the league, they do not match 4-4-2 as this information has popped up in my Pre-Match Chat, they obviously do well against 4-4-2 while playing 4-4-2. The only answer is that Hull City drop a striker into midfield, which is what the AI has done for donkeys years.

The PKM I posted not only proves this assumption, it shows just how much this assumption and the individual details of this assumption matter.

Is it really the "only way"? Could it not be that players like Bullard and Marney are very tenacious and will go man to man with their opposite numbers, or that Geovanni enjoys the extra space he's afforded? Furthermore, could it not be the case that most of the teams around Hull play a 4-4-2, making it more likely that they'll pick up points against a 4-4-2?

It may be that on this one occasion, the AI used a deep lying striker, but is it always the case when a team do well against a 4-4-2?

[SFraser]

Is it really the "only way"? Could it not be that players like Bullard and Marney are very tenacious and will go man to man with their opposite numbers, or that Geovanni enjoys the extra space he's afforded? Furthermore, could it not be the case that most of the teams around Hull play a 4-4-2, making it more likely that they'll pick up points against a 4-4-2?

It may be that on this one occasion, the AI used a deep lying striker, but is it always the case when a team do well against a 4-4-2?

It "could be" in theory and you couldn't rule this out in FML, but in FM10 with it's "TC Shout Choice" AI system it is almost entireally certain that it isn't. Combined to the actual observation of the attributes of the players, and the way the first half progressed, it only reinforces this perception.

The PKM I uploaded is not the tour de force of attacking football I claimed it was when watching ten minutes of the first half, but it is a crystal clear example of simple tactical issues producing huge consequences, but also how the AI responds and "thinks" in incredibly simplistic ways.

Players that don't pay attention to the changes the AI does make or when it makes them, combined to attributes of players and basic tactical situations and their own tactical ability and motivation techniques, can often think that the game is far more intelligent than it is.

Watch the PKM. It is not a feast of "sexy football" it is a feast of basic tactical principles and their consequences played against a not-so-great AI and a human player that knows what he is doing in the first half, in general, and gets drunk for the second half and changes nothing.

As I said, it is one of the most crystal clear PKMs you are likely to ever see. That doesn't mean it is any fun to watch. It is all there though.

And it is an 8 goal thriller. Just watch it, and then tell me what you see, compared to what I wrote before kick-off. Look at the entire issue of the Hull City RCM and RCF positions. I attempt to counter them and do "okay" without doing well. The Hull City AI swaps the LCM and RCM and the LFC and RCF and there are 7 goals in the second half. 4 for me and 3 for them.

I am not making this up, and this is not "smart" thinking from the AI. It has absolutely no idea about the tactics of the game, it simply follows AI commands, and although I do not adapt the setup of my team initially allows me to score 4 goals arising from defensive weakness in the Hull City RCM position, while they score 3 arising out of defensive weakness in the area of my team attempting to defend the Hull RCF that dropped deep in the first half.

It is all there in the PKM.

[Jenko_EFC]

I started a game as Manchester United based on this thread (mainly part 2) and came up in my first competitive match against Chelsea in the Community Shield, I'd like to know how you'd approach this game this is what I am about to do Chelsea play a narrow diamond with overlapping fullbacks so I'm going to play wide with WBs or Inside forwards who can get up and down the wings and be defensive enough to eliminate the threat of Cole and Bosingwa a DMC and an MCd to challenge the AMC and MCa also a advanced playmaker but adjust his mentality to low so their DMC is pulled out of position for my inside forwards to exploit if I play them instead of WBs but this is the part where I'm stumped my MCa who'll have to deal with Essien I was going to play Scholes as advanced playmaker but he won't be able to cope with Essien's physical presence ir another MCd (Fletcher as I bought M.Diarra for DMC 4m?) they've bought Suarez so I'll play Ferdinand cover and mark him and Vidic stopper to deal with Drogba's aerial ability and I have Dzeko uo with Rooney how would you play them against Terry and Carvalho ?? Thanks in advance

[SFraser]

I'd say atleast half the battle against Chelsea, especially as a team like Manchester United, is keeping the ball untill they get tired.

A team like United are in a position to deal with periphery threats, like Anelka left up on his own, or the overlapping Ashley Cole/Bosingwa, with single players or a basic set of tactical instructions leaving the majority of the tactical consideration for the match to be dealing with Chelseas excellent midfield linkup play and dangerous midfield runners.

A team like United are in a better position to deal with Chelsea than most others, but are likewise tasked with beating them. The huge benefit a United manager has is that he plays Chelsea in the Charity Shield and gets a good look at them. Losing that game is acceptable and gives you a good level of experience of how one of the most difficult formations plays out. The next time around you will not be forgiven for getting less than 3 points.

Chelsea's key threat is their central midfield. The central midfield are all capable of working hard and dominating the centre, it is very capable of cutting holes in a defense and creating chances for each other, it is very capable of shooting from range, it is very capable in getting late onto crosses and scoring headed goals, it is very capable of threading balls to the wider forwards, and it is very capable of pulling opponents into the middle and creating space down the flanks for a telling run/dribble/cross/cutback.

The entire Chelsea formation essentially works like a very deep and very aggressive modern 4-3-3. The Chelsea strikers pull wide and attempt to dominate and attack fullbacks, the central Chelsea attacking midfielder drops deep and attempts to dominate the midfield. You could draw comprisons with United in the European Cup with Ronaldo and Rooney wide with Tevez harrassing through the centre. You could draw comparisons with Barcelona as well.

It is important to realise what the style of play means. The diamond 4-4-2 is not an abstract, unknown, bamboozling tactical system. It is a simple variation of the most common system of football in the European Cup. Instead of having the wide attacking players start wide, Chelsea has them starting narrow. Chelsea tell their forwards to play wider, rather than tell their wingers to play as forwards. This means that the Chelsea AMC is their true Centreforward. Lampard with his shooting ability, Ballack with his aerial threat, or Deco with his intelligence and Creativity.

However it also means that the Chelsea wide players are incredibly potent strikers, and this is their weak point. In most 4-3-3's the wide attacking players are expected to track fullbacks, defend from wide, and help out the midfield. Chelsea completey sacrifice this aspect of a 4-3-3. They gain a much more defensive minded Central Attacking player, i.e. their "true centreforward" is much more defensive, but it comes at the cost of lacking defensive capability in high and wide areas.

This perfectly links to their other great weakness, the difference in midfield ability and their general Stamina/pace lack. While Essien is a physical juggernaut down one flank, he is very poor technically and very poor in attack. On the other flank, any combination of Ballack, Lampard or Joe Cole is going to suffer from a lack of pace, power, stamina or defensive intelligence.

To defeat Chelsea you must be aware of their central potency in attack which is quite simply lethal, but you must also be aware that over-comitting to a defence through the middle opens spaces for their wide forwards and advancing fullbacks. It is important to track their fullbacks, provide sufficient ability at fullback to atleast assist in defending against their strikers, and not get pulled out of position in the defensive middle. Actually defending against them when they have the ball is a tough task.

However the greatest and clearest pathway to success against Chelsea is to deprive them of the ball by keeping it wide and keeping possession, and then making their pace/stamina/width lacking midfield chase it. If you can make Chelsea chase the ball from flank to flank and not concede for the first 60 minutes of the game, then you are guarenteed the most crystal clear and open path to victory in the final 30 minutes.

Wait untill their most threatening players drop in condition, and believe me they will absolutely plummit with a good strategy, then attack the hell out of their pace lacking defence with aggressive attacking tactics, overloading numbers, pacey forwards and direct football.

Once they are ground down in terms of condition, they cannot withstand your aggressive and near-kamikaze attacks.

[Comedybegs]

I find attacking with the TC to be fine but being able to attack well and keep clean sheets to be my problem. I really struggle to find the balance unlike I have in previous versions of the game, especially when playing with a high defensive line. IMO something isnt quite right with the offside trap regardless of whether I play with split CB's or same mentalities. I also find the zonal/man marking and loose/tight to not really work that well, even more so when in combination with CD settings.

With the ball however it is much easier to play good passing football from the start instead of fiddling around for ages with mentalities, CF, passing etc.

Im looking forward to the introduction of 10.3 and get rid of the through ball/ 1v1 bugs as it could definately be the best version yet which is most complex in detail but simplest in application.

[ronaldo7fan]

I'd say atleast half the battle against Chelsea, especially as a team like Manchester United, is keeping the ball untill they get tired.

A team like United are in a position to deal with periphery threats, like Anelka left up on his own, or the overlapping Ashley Cole/Bosingwa, with single players or a basic set of tactical instructions leaving the majority of the tactical consideration for the match to be dealing with Chelseas excellent midfield linkup play and dangerous midfield runners.

A team like United are in a better position to deal with Chelsea than most others, but are likewise tasked with beating them. The huge benefit a United manager has is that he plays Chelsea in the Charity Shield and gets a good look at them. Losing that game is acceptable and gives you a good level of experience of how one of the most difficult formations plays out. The next time around you will not be forgiven for getting less than 3 points.

Chelsea's key threat is their central midfield. The central midfield are all capable of working hard and dominating the centre, it is very capable of cutting holes in a defense and creating chances for each other, it is very capable of shooting from range, it is very capable in getting late onto crosses and scoring headed goals, it is very capable of threading balls to the wider forwards, and it is very capable of pulling opponents into the middle and creating space down the flanks for a telling run/dribble/cross/cutback.

The entire Chelsea formation essentially works like a very deep and very aggressive modern 4-3-3. The Chelsea strikers pull wide and attempt to dominate and attack fullbacks, the central Chelsea attacking midfielder drops deep and attempts to dominate the midfield. You could draw comprisons with United in the European Cup with Ronaldo and Rooney wide with Tevez harrassing through the centre. You could draw comparisons with Barcelona as well.

It is important to realise what the style of play means. The diamond 4-4-2 is not an abstract, unknown, bamboozling tactical system. It is a simple variation of the most common system of football in the European Cup. Instead of having the wide attacking players start wide, Chelsea has them starting narrow. Chelsea tell their forwards to play wider, rather than tell their wingers to play as forwards. This means that the Chelsea AMC is their true Centreforward. Lampard with his shooting ability, Ballack with his aerial threat, or Deco with his intelligence and Creativity.

However it also means that the Chelsea wide players are incredibly potent strikers, and this is their weak point. In most 4-3-3's the wide attacking players are expected to track fullbacks, defend from wide, and help out the midfield. Chelsea completey sacrifice this aspect of a 4-3-3. They gain a much more defensive minded Central Attacking player, i.e. their "true centreforward" is much more defensive, but it comes at the cost of lacking defensive capability in high and wide areas.

This perfectly links to their other great weakness, the difference in midfield ability and their general Stamina/pace lack. While Essien is a physical juggernaut down one flank, he is very poor technically and very poor in attack. On the other flank, any combination of Ballack, Lampard or Joe Cole is going to suffer from a lack of pace, power, stamina or defensive intelligence.

To defeat Chelsea you must be aware of their central potency in attack which is quite simply lethal, but you must also be aware that over-comitting to a defence through the middle opens spaces for their wide forwards and advancing fullbacks. It is important to track their fullbacks, provide sufficient ability at fullback to atleast assist in defending against their strikers, and not get pulled out of position in the defensive middle. Actually defending against them when they have the ball is a tough task.

However the greatest and clearest pathway to success against Chelsea is to deprive them of the ball by keeping it wide and keeping possession, and then making their pace/stamina/width lacking midfield chase it. If you can make Chelsea chase the ball from flank to flank and not concede for the first 60 minutes of the game, then you are guarenteed the most crystal clear and open path to victory in the final 30 minutes.

Wait untill their most threatening players drop in condition, and believe me they will absolutely plummit with a good strategy, then attack the hell out of their pace lacking defence with aggressive attacking tactics, overloading numbers, pacey forwards and direct football.

Once they are ground down in terms of condition, they cannot withstand your aggressive and near-kamikaze attacks.

Mate Chelsea have one of the fittest squads in the league I have no idea what you are talking about when saying that after 60 minutes they are done.

[SFraser]

Mate Chelsea have one of the fittest squads in the league I have no idea what you are talking about when saying that after 60 minutes they are done.

I would imagine that is because you don't make a narrow, paceless midfield chase the ball.

[ronaldo7fan]

Pace =/= fitness my friend.

[ZdlR]

I would imagine that is because you don't make a narrow, paceless midfield chase the ball.

Pace =/= fitness my friend

Think through to the logical conclusion of forcing a paceless midfield to chase the ball. Firstly, they don't have much pace so moving the ball around will concomitantly move their midfield around as they chase the ball, but won't be able to get the ball back. Secondly, as the game progresses, all this chasing of the ball takes its toll and the players begin to tire. Even a very fit squad with good stamina will tire towards the end of a game if they've been chasing shadows.

[SFraser]

Chelseas squad is very fit in a few key areas, mediocre fit in some, and has severe stamina problems in others. Generally speaking those players that are most fit are the ones you have to worry least about, while those that are the most dangerous to your team are the ones that are very easy to exploit in terms of condition. This is magnified by the fact that Chelsea play a very physical and hardworking game, lack significant pace through the centre, and lack width.

If you already tend towards a strategy of keeping the ball, probing for gaps and making the opposition work in the first half, with fast counter attacks whenever the opponent has and then concedes possession, then you are in a great starting position to use Chelsea's weaknesses against them. Such a starting strategy is almost a no-brainer for United against the stronger opposition you will play.

If you then happen to benefit from additional advantages such as wet weather and a mid season match time when the season is beginning to take it's toll then it is very easy to press these advantages.

Here is a screenshot of the scoreline and end-game condition from my most recent game between United and Chelsea in the 27th of January 2010 under wet weather conditions. The end-game condition is approximately +10 condition what the players on both sides condition was just prior to the final whistle.

You will notice that not only were the high Stamina players in Chelsea's midfield completely run into the ground compared to my much lower Stamina players, but that my entire match strategy including starting 11 and substitutions was geared to exploit this aspect of the match.

My starting 11 consisted of midfield power, flank pace, the most defensive minded defence I had to play, and two good forwards capable of holding up the ball and playing link-up football. My substitutions were all about exploiting tired legs with fresh, creative, accurate players.

Here is a screenshot of the First Half and Second Half Action Zones.

I don't think things could be any clearer.

In the first half a well prepared, full strength Manchester United playing at home had the slight rub of the green and a slight territorial advantage over Chelsea, although near half the game was played in midfield where Chelsea slightly shaded dominance.

In the second half it was a route.

[Jenko_EFC]

To experiment both ways I saved the day before and firstly tried my way by playing inside forwards to exploit the space their DMC left by playing a defence minded AMC and to exploit the lack of width and the counter attacks when they got forward was exciting as we'd win the ball my AMC would come deep and pull away his marker and they'd cut inside and generally do well. In defence vidic as stopper marking Drogba and Ferdinand cover marking Anelka which worked well to an extent but Anelka kept moving wide and beating Ferdinand on the wing whilst my WBs were on Attacking. Unfortunately we couldn't get a goaland it ended 0-0 and then I tried your way (not to cheat but to experiment )and generally dominated the game and sure enough they got tired and about the 60 min mark they got tired and they changed their midfield with subs so I waited until 80+ and in the end got a goal on Overload and won 1-0 so me = tactical noob. You = tactical genius lol

[SFraser]

I don't know about tactical genius, especially if you watched the second half of my PKM.

It sounds like you had some interesting pathways opening up to goal early on in the game but didn't exploit them fully. Then you applied my observation that Chelsea are very prone to becoming tired, which is a valid and very good and sound tactical detail, and defeated them that way.

I would suggest though that you consider the abilities of the players in your side and consider an assymetric tactical approach to playing United.

Neither Wes Brown nor John O'Shea are particularly adept at going forward, and are very good at guarding the outside of the covering Ferdinand. Likewise Ryan Giggs is not very good at playing a traditional winger role while Evra most certainly can.

When I play as Manchester United I tend towards considering Evra and Valencia as almost two identical players, despite the different starting positions. Likewise I consider Giggs and Berbatov to be similar, despite the different starting positions. And again I consider Brown and Vidic to be similar, pivoting around Ferdinand.

The United side is a very fluid and adaptable side. It is also very easy to be successful with in FM if you try to play "realistic" and essentially rotate the entire starting 4-4-2 by about 10-20 degrees to the right in attack.

Getting the right instructions to do so is not easy, but when it happens it is pretty realistic and pretty destructive for the opponent, especially in FM.