Attacking with the Tactics Creator: Discussion

[Argamas]

Great analysis, but how do you pick your team? Players first? Tactic framework first? 50-50? Could you elaborate on that? That's for me the million dollar/pound/euro question

I think that's the biggest problem for a lot of people. I keep seeing players in roles they're not capable of and illogical tactical frameworks with no cohesion.

Between the lines I read you try and experiment, but some insight would be appreciated!

[SFraser]

The first and most important thing is that you need to know the tactical capabilities of your own squad. You need to have an idea of all the different options you can employ during a match, how your players are capable of performing different roles, and what combinations of players in what different tactical setups can produce what different effects and functions in a game.

In one 4-4-2 for example you could push your AMC forward, play two good passing, creative wingers and try and knock the ball about infront of the opponents defence and work an opening, with Fullbacks overlapping and a growler of a DM mopping up behind. In another you could drop the AMC into a deeper playmaking role, get your pacey forwards to run the channels and bombard them from range, then have your growler DMC and pacey wingers pound up and down the pitch supporting the counter.

The real big deal is whether you can play these styles, how good they are for you, what else they let you do in the team formation, and how useful they are against your opponent.

The next consideration is to discover or decide upon where you think the opponent is most susceptible to your team and where he is most dangerous. You should also be looking for other factors that can play a role, such as Motivation/Personality, Fitness/Condition, or vastly superior Jumping for Corners and Set Pieces.

Ultimately it all boils down to understanding the opponent and yourself and constructing a plan to defeat them. A well balanced, well managed squad should have options available to it within it's own basic tactical framework for defending more, attacking more, defending in specific ways, attacking in specific ways etc. Selecting players is less a matter of deciding "right who will play DM today" and more about deciding "right well this match is perfect for Carrick sitting deep and dominating play" or "It needs Anderson in the centre atleast untill the opponents physical advantage drops through tiredness". Selecting a formation and strategy and tactical gameplan is exactly the same. You don't choose it so much as a jigsaw puzzle of tactical pieces comes together as you look through the opponents squad and tactics and your own squad and tactics.

I think perhaps one of the major problems for a lot of people in this game compared to others, is experience combined to attention to detail. I don't mean length of time playing the game, but length of time getting to know a squad, it's players, and watching them perform in full match replays. I have seen people do 15 seasons in the time it takes me to do one. That doesn't necessarilly make me better at the game, but it means that I am far more intune with my own team, tactics, opponents and individuals at any one time than perhaps others are, which will give me a huge advantage irrespective of my comparable general ability.

This is also one of the major problems I have with managing other squads and teams in other leagues, compared to United whom I support and watch regularly. I simply do not have the experience and knowledge of the players and the team and the tactics and the opponents and so my first few seasons are a learning experience as opposed to a management and competitive experience. When I play as United I am immediately comfortable and can play the game at the level of management detail and challenge I enjoy.

I am not sure how much this "answer" helps.

[Argamas]

Thanks for the insight. My problem with the Tactics creator is: sh*t in = sh*t out. That's what you're saying as well. On the Dutch speaking forum I reside, I notice that a lot of people don't have a clue what the difference is between a Complete Forward and a Deeplying Forward (as an example) and thus fail in making logical tactics.

So perhaps you can tell why you chose to play Rooney and Berbatov both as complete forwards.

My tactics are quite simple, I choose for defensive stability. Flat four and a DMC and a creative / supporting central midfield with a lot of movement on the wings / forwards. That limits me in choosing my teams and players, but so far it works.

[SFraser]

Thanks for the insight. My problem with the Tactics creator is: sh*t in = sh*t out. That's what you're saying as well. On the Dutch speaking forum I reside, I notice that a lot of people don't have a clue what the difference is between a Complete Forward and a Deeplying Forward (as an example) and thus fail in making logical tactics.

So perhaps you can tell why you chose to play Rooney and Berbatov both as complete forwards.

My tactics are quite simple, I choose for defensive stability. Flat four and a DMC and a creative / supporting central midfield with a lot of movement on the wings / forwards. That limits me in choosing my teams and players, but so far it works.

The TC still allows you to view slider settings and other tactical details, and I tend to base all my TC use purely on the "traditional settings" within, exploiting only the vastly increased ease-of-use the TC gives.

I do not change these settings, but I do base my TC tactics around these "traditional" settings. I find that the TC is useful for all but the most indepth and personalised and detailed of tactics. Still, I do not technically play by the TC, as in I do not base my choices on the "names" of roles and positions. I use the TC as a library of useful "Tactical Settings" and design my tactics based upon the precise function of these TC options.

As for the question regarding Complete Forward versus Deep Lying Forward, the real issue is that while the Deep Lying Forward implies additional depth of positioning of play, it simply doesn't deliver in that respect.

In my particular framework of Attacking strategy and Very Fluid philosophy, the Complete Forward has additional Creative Freedom and additional bias towards Running with the Ball, Through Balls, and Crosses.

The reason why I choose both as Complete Forward is first because of the additional bias towards creativity, direct running, throughballs and less emphasis on longshots. Secondly because they both contain Free Roles and HUB which tells a player to exploit space and look for superior options.

The third reason is worth explaining in depth.

Complete Forward Attack offers the same Action bias as Complete Forward Support. Holding up the Ball, Running, Through Balls, Crosses.

The crucial difference between the two roles is that Complete Forward Attack plays higher up the pitch and pulls wide into the Channels while rarely making a Forward Run. Complete Forward Support looks for space in the centre, starts at a deeper position, and runs Forward Earlier in a move.

Complete Forward Attack and Complete Forward Support in combination in a front two are two essentially hard working, space exploiting, space creating attacking roles that start off with one playing behind the other. As the attack progresses the more advanced Forward pulls wide into the Channels, while the deeper Forward makes attacking runs through the centre. If you then send up a Winger Attack on the side opposite the Complete Forward Attack, you now have a front 3 with the Central Forward dropping deep or attacking advanced positions according to his intelligence, while also looking to occupy space.

My choice of role is not simply about player ability in that role although that certainly matters, it is about player ability in that role and that roles function in a complete tactical framework.

If I then give the winger on the same side as the Complete Forward Attack the position and role of Winger Support, he will not advance so early, he will not Hug-Touchline and he will look to move into space while playing through-balls and running with the ball with a less direct passing style. If I then give the Central Midfielder on the same side as the Winger Attack a box to box role, he will advance forward and move into space, linking up behind the front three with the Winger Support.

If I then give the remaining CM, between the Winger Support and the CM Box-to-box the position and role of Playmaker Support, he will remain deep with high Creative Freedom and the instruction to Try Through Balls and become the pass choice of preference for my entire side.

In effect my 4-4-2 becomes a 4-1-2-3 in attack by intelligent use of roles. This is ofcourse completely irrelevant if the players in those roles are useless in those positions and functions, but ofcourse as Manchester United my players are near perfectly designed to fulfill those roles and functions.

[Argamas]

Thanks again. Appreciating your pacience to explain all.

To learn more I will look into alle the slider settings too, instead of just going to decide on the general explenation on the roles in the tactics screen.

[SFraser]

Thanks again. Appreciating your pacience to explain all.

No problem. Good and interesting questions are always worth exploring, and answering if you can answer.

[themadsheep2001]

hey SFraser, i noticed in your 4-2-4 you had 3 playmakers, were any of the set as "the" playermaker so to speak, or was the playmaker setting ticked to none?

[Jenko_EFC]

Quite a big bump but it is an amazing thread! I think one of the most important things SFraser points out is

you need to know the tactical capabilities of your own squad.

Which is why whenever I start a new game I always think of the different roles I will need and try to but players for these positions. On topic of Manchester United, I find this team to be the best team to start off with in this sense, the main player for me surprisingly is Park Ji-Sung. He is instrumental at getting Evra up the wing and I play him with Rarely run from deep, rare on everything except run with ball, through balls and crossing and I also have him high closing down. This, in practice makes him help with defensive duties, play balls to Evra and run with ball when needed. Another point is having Evra and the RB on Cut inside as this lets them cut in and pass to my playmaker (Carrick, Fletcher and Rodwell sometimes) and they also get up and down the wing. The midfield is a crucial part and most players are very versatile in the sense that they can all play 2-3 roles each really well. Upfront I like to play Rooney as an AMC trequarista who pulls the defender deep before using his pace to get into the box with a through ball from the creative Berbatov.

EDIT: I have just downloaded the PKM and will give feedback on other ways to eploit teams like this

[Jenko_EFC]

Sorry about such a long post

First-Half

The first thing that struck me whilst watching the PKM was within 50 seconds! The part where Vidic nodded the ball out to Nani who laid it off to Berbatov then gave it to Evans and whoever watched the PKM will know what I mean in this part where Evans sent a stunning ball over to Marquinhos! I was amazed at the amount of space your attackers had with Nani cutting in and Berbatov dropping deep.

Next, was Marquinhos who gave it to Carrick who was in acres of space and played a lovely ball to Giggs on the wing and if he had more pace could have beat his man and got a ball in. The next move that was very well done was about 6 minutes in when Berbatov dropped deep (again) and nodded to Nani who again was free on the right-hand-side who gave it to Fletcher and gave a first touch 20 yard pass into Marquinhos who gave a through ball to the on-coming Berbatov who for some reason decided against shooting from 6 yards and gave it to Giggs who gave away possession.

Another thing that was nice to see was how many times Brown beat Altidore in the air and Vidic beat Ghilas when Hull would try to counter with a long ball forward. One thing I still don’t quite get is when your strikers got in behind the defence instead of burying it they’d give the ball to the winger and this is still puzzling me as to why? The next bit was the offside goal by Fletcher. Carrick again was in acres of space and swung a great ball in to Fletcher and one thing that occurred was Fletcher, Berbatov and Nani were against 2 defenders whilst Marquinhos pulled wide and it was a well worked goal just too bad it wasn’t onside!

Another offside this time on about 17 minutes where Marquinhos pulled wide Giggs was marked by their right winger and Evra played a ball to Carrick who played a nice pass into Marquinhos who’d already outpaced his man and was looking to link-up with Giggs, also I noticed in the box when this happened Nani ran in and Fletcher was about to and they would have repeated what happened in the disallowed goal probably against the two defenders.

On about 19 minutes, the corner was played to the back post and nodded back across goal by Vidic and Brown was very close to scoring and forced a great save from Myhill! So I must say well done for you set-pieces haha. At about 20 minutes you changed a bit I think as your team was playing very wide compared to the previous 20 minutes. At about 25 minutes in I looked at motivation and Evra and Nani were ‘playing nervously’ whilst Brown, Vidic, Fletcher and Marquinhos were either ‘Looking Motivated’ or ‘Playing with Confidence’ which so I figured why Nani wasn’t playing aswell as I believe he could have plus the fact a lot of your attacks were down the left because Marquinhos was playing so well! The main reson however, was Marquinhos would pull wide Berbatov would take up a central role and Nani would be left without a passing option.

27 minutes now and a brilliant attack down the left again with a throw from Evra to Carrick (who by the way link-up brilliantly) who gave it back and a superb 30 yard pass to Marquinhos who nodded it into the path of Berbatov who again fluffed his chance. Gardner of Hull picked up a knock so I hoped Berbatov would play better now he was up against a limping centre-half although now when he dropped deep Gardner couldn’t keep up as much and Berbatov had a lot of space! As I mentioned earlier your set pieces are extremely well worked and Brown’s goal was nothing short of brilliant as I struggle with pieces.

Half-Time

I thought of a few subs I would make if any. I though of bringing off Berbatov but no one on the bench could do what he does as well as he does. By the way was Rooney injured or suspended? Then I thought of taking off Evra as he wasn’t doing too well apart from some good passes down the wing to Marquinhos/Giggs and had poor motivation.

I turned my attention to the subs bench and you had: Kuszczak, O’Shea, Fabio, Hargreaves, Anderson, Valencia and Owen and I though the most probable was Valencia if anyone. You never made any changes and I wouldn’t have either you were in a very strong position at home and no one was remotely tired and you were against a side not even had a shot yet! Not even a corner! Although, they brought on two Jan Venegoor of Hesselink and George Boateng and as you rightly pointed out this is where the game changed.

Second Half

You started brightly but your midfielders were no longer getting the amount of space they had in the first half and when I mentioned before about how your defenders were beating their forwards in the air now Hesselink was getting the better of Vidic, I started to worry as they now had the upper hand in my opinion as when before their counter attacks failed in the air now they could do that, when Fletcher and Carrick were running the game now they were being very tight marked so in effect Hull turned two negatives into positives by two subs!

Hull’s first shot came from a wonderful passing move. Wendt had a free-kick and played into Bullard who got the better of Carrick and slipped a ball to Geovanni who played a wonderful through ball to Hesselink who was one on one with Van der Sar who pulled off an admirable save.

Your next goal was good a lot of link-up play on the left before a superb through ball from Carrick to Marquinhos who struck it hard into the bottom corner 2-0! A superb move followed from Hull who were determined to fight back. Carrick left Bullard in far too much room to play a nice ball into Altidore who outpaced Brown and smashed it from 20 yards into the top corner unbelievable!

Gardner fouled Berbatov on the edge of the box so now Berbatov was against a limping defender on a yellow card how I envy him haha. I was surprised to see Jan Venegoor of Hesselink come back off for Efrain Juarez after playing quite well I thought, especially as 3 minutes into the game Juarez had 70% condition! Another goal followed to make it 3-1, guess what another corner.

Shortly after, I noticed you’d gone back to playing narrow which left the wingers in a lot of space. To make it 3-2 a free-kick from Wendt into the top corner, nothing you could have done to be fair but unnecessary from Vidic to foul Altidore when he could have caught up with him I felt. Evans has brilliant passing and once again found Nani with an inch perfect pass and Nani was unlucky not to score.

Around the 69th minute Hull changed to a 4-4-1-1 which worked well and Carrick and Fletcher couldn’t deal wth him and Vidic weren’t marking him as he was an AMC I felt you should have brought on O’Shea or Hargreaves for Berbatov/Marquinhos and play him DMC if necessary. Another superb move from the wing by Hull with slick passing which eventually found Mendy who’s shot was saved by Van der Sar, Evra really should have beat him to the ball but to be fair he was marking him pretty tightly. 2 sub’s Anderson and Valencia for Giggs and Nani, I think I know why you made these but I felt Giggs is more defensive than Anderson and left you more prone at the back whilst Valencia was pretty much a straight swap but unfortunately came on ‘looking comlacent’.

Altidore played really well and I was impressed with him he played the ‘Marquinhios’ role you used, he scored and outpaced Vidic a lot when he’d move into the channel and sometimes Brown too. Geovanni moving into ‘the hole’ was in my opinion a key factor as he would plat through balls and would latch onto them from Bullard as well. Another chance they had was from a long ball to Wendt who caught Evans sleeping but his cross was poor. Another sub, Owen for Marquinhos, again more attacking power but when you’re 1 up I felt you needed more defensive players as well as the fact Owen came on ‘playing nervously’.

The goal to put you 4-2 was nice although Bullard went in for no reason on Carrick but it was a nice short free-kick to Evans who showed his passing skills and fed Valencia who gave it to Berbatov for a nice finish. Geovanni kept getting behind you defensive line but more often than not was offside except for the goal where he got in behind andplayed a swift ball through to Altidore who finished well. In the closing stages they went 4-2-4 but luckily Manchester United were good enough to keep them at bay.

Main Tactical Key Points

• You needed to play wider especially in the second half they stretched you a lot down the wings mainly when they went 4-2-4
  
• You needed to drop deeper as Brown and Vidic weren’t fast enough for Altidore
  
• I think you needed a defensive midfielder as Geovanni playing in the hole was too dangerous in my opinion and he proved this at the end.
  
• You also needed to tight-mark Bullard in the second-half as he had too much space
  

Other Comments

• Marquinhos, as you said, is a steal at £5.75m but he was often offside.
  
• In the first half you dominated them as you said you did but a few tricks at half-time and to be honest you were lucky to come away with the win.
  

[SFraser]

I remember that game. I think the manager was "looking complacent" in the Second Half, not helped by having sunk a few beers more than he had at kick-off.

The key, as I remember and as you pointed out, was how Hull adapted their central midfield and turned a huge weakness I was exploiting mercilessly into a strength where they were marking my attackers and overloading the gaps I was leaving. Basically a complete reverse from the AI in the second half of the strategy I was employing. Not a cunning, indepth, detailed exploit of my system though, just a swap of where the AMC and DMC were playing. I didn't respond well to the change and was lucky to finish with the win, but I thought the PKM was an excellent example of easy to observe tactical details and the huge impact that minor tactical details can have on games.

[...Eternal Sin...]

How to load this pkm to game and see this match?

[Jenko_EFC]

download it and save it anywhere I saved it in my docs but make sure you remember where you put it. The go on FM go on View Match and look where you saved it and it will come up

[Jenko_EFC]

I remember that game. I think the manager was "looking complacent" in the Second Half, not helped by having sunk a few beers more than he had at kick-off.

The key, as I remember and as you pointed out, was how Hull adapted their central midfield and turned a huge weakness I was exploiting mercilessly into a strength where they were marking my attackers and overloading the gaps I was leaving. Basically a complete reverse from the AI in the second half of the strategy I was employing. Not a cunning, indepth, detailed exploit of my system though, just a swap of where the AMC and DMC were playing. I didn't respond well to the change and was lucky to finish with the win, but I thought the PKM was an excellent example of easy to observe tactical details and the huge impact that minor tactical details can have on games.

That it was, I was pointing out a few (well alot )things I thought was going wrong and put it down, it has taught me alot actually as it is easier to find faults in someone else's tactic than your own and I know what to look for now. When you stated about how the first 5 mins and most of the first half was excellent football it certainly was and it was amazing to see how much space you had against a team pressing an awful lot as well.