Player attribute revision

[lance101]

What about the set pieces attribute... Right now, how would you pick your set piece taker for a cross? and how would you pick your set piece taker for a shot? Wouldn't the majority agree these are fundamentally different skills, and that therefore one attribute shouldn't cover both???

[jayahr]

What about the set pieces attribute... Right now, how would you pick your set piece taker for a cross? and how would you pick your set piece taker for a shot? Wouldn't the majority agree these are fundamentally different skills, and that therefore one attribute shouldn't cover both???

in general, I don't set free-kick takers in FM as I don't understand what it relates to. I would obviously want different takers for many different situations, but FM doesn't allow me to do that. And on top of that I don't want the same person to take all kicks from a certain position every time.

i would set different takers for different situations, but the options are both unclear and few.

Of course there are big differences between what is needed for a 25-yeards-shot and a cross from the edge of the area. A single free-kick attribute is thus, apart from from what I said above, misleading, to say the least.

The current system only serves to confuse the users who spend any thought on this.

[Elrithral]

I don't deny at all that many factors are involved in a good corner or a good penalty. My argument is that all of these factors are already covered by the normal attributes and that there is nothing on top of that which could be assumed to be the penalty taking ability. That ability is the result of adding up all necessary abilities of a player to take a good penalty.

The same could be said of all technical attributes. Is there really a need for a tackling attribute because anticipation, marking, positioning, concentration etc will determine where a defender is and regardless of a tackling attribute, a defender in a good position will probably win the ball.

Passing isn't necessary because technique, creativity and decisions are the attributes that determine success.

Finishing isn't necessary because composure, off the ball etc.

Obviously this isn't true, tackling, passing and finishing are necessary because these attributes plus their linked attributes equals chance of successful completion. Why should corner taking be any different?

As discussed, some players can hit a mean free kick, but a rubbish corner and vice versa, some players can send in an excellent corner sometimes, but make a mess of it other times, concentration or composure could afect this.

At the same time these technical attributes should work agaisnt players, so they can't just be the mean of other attributes. It is possible for a player to have high concentration and composure, but struggle under the pressure of a penalty situation. Therefore, the distinction has to be made and penalty taking has to affect other attributes, just as they affect it.

Swings and roundabouts

[jayahr]

The same could be said of all technical attributes. Is there really a need for a tackling attribute because anticipation, marking, positioning, concentration etc will determine where a defender is and regardless of a tackling attribute, a defender in a good position will probably win the ball.

Passing isn't necessary because technique, creativity and decisions are the attributes that determine success.

Finishing isn't necessary because composure, off the ball etc.

Obviously this isn't true, tackling, passing and finishing are necessary because these attributes plus their linked attributes equals chance of successful completion. Why should corner taking be any different?

As discussed, some players can hit a mean free kick, but a rubbish corner and vice versa, some players can send in an excellent corner sometimes, but make a mess of it other times, concentration or composure could afect this.

At the same time these technical attributes should work agaisnt players, so they can't just be the mean of other attributes. It is possible for a player to have high concentration and composure, but struggle under the pressure of a penalty situation. Therefore, the distinction has to be made and penalty taking has to affect other attributes, just as they affect it.

Swings and roundabouts

I think there is a big difference. A corner is basically a cross. A penalty a shot. A tackle is nothing like the other stuff you mentioned.

The question is whether the difference between a cross and a corner is a lot and how much of that difference can be explained via a few other attributes which have some weight in this too. What remains is very little and in my opinion too little to be an attribute which to the user appears as the by far most important one for taking corners.

edit: It's a bit different for penalties. There, we agree, finishing is not what it all comes down to, much less than crossing for corners. Pressure is important and other stuff too. But how much on top of what is covered in the other visible and hidden attributes already? Not much I'd say.

Enough for an own attribute? I don't see that, especially when I think about that this attribute will be what most users will look at exclusively when setting the penalty takers (also encouraged by the fact that on the tactics screen that attribute of penalty taking, and only that, is one option to sort by). Considering how little, if anything, that attribute contains on top of the combination of all other applicable attributes I find that highly misleading.

[Elrithral]

Sorry, but I completely disagree. A corner is not just a cross and a penalty is not just a shot, there are other factors that have to be taken into consideration, just like a tackle or a pass. By this logic everyone who can cross a ball well can taken a corner well and everyone who finishes well should be a good penalty taker, that's not true of real life. If it were, Evra would take Manchester United's corners and England; with Lampard, Gerard and Rooney (three of the best finishers in the game) wouldn't have a penalty problem.

There's a distinct difference.

[bigdunk]

And of course the reverse is true for penalties - there are many defenders or defensive midfielders who take fantastic penalties but you wouldn't remotely say they have good finishing/shooting.

[crouchaldinho]

I must say that I totally agree with Elrithral.

There are plenty of composed and classy finishers who aren't very good when it comes to scoring from the penalty spot, and vice-versa (i.e. defenders who take penalties for their team but aren't goalscorers or good finishers by trade).

C.

[crouchaldinho]

And of course the reverse is true for penalties - there are many defenders or defensive midfielders who take fantastic penalties but you wouldn't remotely say they have good finishing/shooting.

Bigdunk beat me too it.

[Erik7]

Do you guys know for a fact that other attributes then penalties, corners and free kicks have something to do in those situations? I'm not sure that is case. It would maybe be a logical thing but then again why are those attributes there, just to confuse us? Why name an attribute corners when it doesn't mean that the player is that good on taking corners and so on? Could this be confirmed somewhere?

[iamjerome]

Sorry, but I completely disagree. A corner is not just a cross and a penalty is not just a shot, there are other factors that have to be taken into consideration, just like a tackle or a pass. By this logic everyone who can cross a ball well can taken a corner well and everyone who finishes well should be a good penalty taker, that's not true of real life. If it were, Evra would take Manchester United's corners and England; with Lampard, Gerard and Rooney (three of the best finishers in the game) wouldn't have a penalty problem.

There's a distinct difference.

lampard has only missed 1 penalty in his last 40 odd, gerrard is an adequate penalty taker too. only rooney isn't "renowned" to be a good penalty taker but then i would disagree that he is one of the best finishers in the game.

not sure how you can say evra would not take corners well, the reason others take corners is because there are others who cross better than him.

i can definitely see why a free kick 'shooting' stat needs to be involved but penalty taking is probably unnecessary if like in reality, it's a mixture of several other attributes that are relevant to that particular skill. same with corners.

[whitehead.10]

Too be honest -ERIK if you want to have shooting power, accuracy, heading power ... etc.

Play championship manager, as last time I check they had these things done for you

and you can have it out of 100 so its a more accurate level for you, infact over 5 times more accurate

oh and

And of course the reverse is true for penalties - there are many defenders or defensive midfielders who take fantastic penalties but you wouldn't remotely say they have good finishing/shooting.

Penalties aren't just shooting, and bloke from the pub should be able to hit the target for 12 yards, its all mental attributes when penalties are involved, yes if i can hit it harder; whilst keeping it on target i might be better.

But if i have good composure and decisions, and my anticipation and flair are high, I'd probably beat most GK's in the world 9 times out of 10

[Erik7]

Too be honest -ERIK if you want to have shooting power, accuracy, heading power ... etc.

Play championship manager, as last time I check they had these things done for you

and you can have it out of 100 so its a more accurate level for you, infact over 5 times more accurate

Don't like championship manager despite having those "precious" attributes.

[Wonky]

I'm very happy with the current attributes. I'd hope SI would attack the current problems rather than work on something like this. This isn't important, imo.

[lance101]

Wonky: how do you choose your set piece taker? Set pieces + long shots + crossing + Composure + blabla bla ? Just set pieceS? I don't think it is clear at all what makes a good set piece taker right now, so the current set up is clearly not optimal, even though I agree there are other more pressing concerns for improvement in the game.

[Wonky]

Wonky: how do you choose your set piece taker? Set pieces + long shots + crossing + Composure + blabla bla ? Just set pieceS? I don't think it is clear at all what makes a good set piece taker right now, so the current set up is clearly not optimal, even though I agree there are other more pressing concerns for improvement in the game.

There's no such thing as a set piece taker on the tactics screen. Do you mean free kicks, corners or penalties? Each has their own attribute, so it's obvious how to choose them.

[lance101]

I mean free kicks.

[Wonky]

Then you select the person with the best 'Free Kicks' attribute. That's what it's there for.

[lance101]

So you would say that Cassano (Free Kicks 16, Long Shots 6) shoots a better free kick than C Ronaldo (Free Kicks 15, Long Shots 14), and that Drogba (Free Kicks 16, Crossing 7) crosses better from a Free kick than Ze Roberto (Free Kicks 15, Crossing 17)?

[jayahr]

I must say that I totally agree with Elrithral.

There are plenty of composed and classy finishers who aren't very good when it comes to scoring from the penalty spot, and vice-versa (i.e. defenders who take penalties for their team but aren't goalscorers or good finishers by trade).

C.

That's why I made a distinction between penalties and corners. Of course, you don't necessarily need to be an excellent finisher to take good penalties, but for corners... I actually regard crosses as more difficult than corners as they are within a moving playing environment. And I do not know a good corner taker who isn't a good crosser and vice versa.

[Elrithral]

That's why I made a distinction between penalties and corners. Of course, you don't necessarily need to be an excellent finisher to take good penalties, but for corners... I actually regard crosses as more difficult than corners as they are within a moving playing environment. And I do not know a good corner taker who isn't a good crosser and vice versa.

The same could be said of free kicks and long shots, but i'm sure you'll agree that players with a good long shot aren't necessarily a good free kick taker.

There have been examples throughout this thread of players who take corners, but aren't brilliant at crossing, my example was Evra, which someone picked up on, but they seemed to miss the point. Evra, imo, is a better crosser of than Giggs and Giggs a better crosser than Carrick, however, Carrick takes corners ahead of Giggs and Giggs takes corners ahgead of Evra, if it was based purely on crossing ability then it would be the reverse.

[Wonky]

So you would say that Cassano (Free Kicks 16, Long Shots 6) shoots a better free kick than C Ronaldo (Free Kicks 15, Long Shots 14), and that Drogba (Free Kicks 16, Crossing 7) crosses better from a Free kick than Ze Roberto (Free Kicks 15, Crossing 17)?

I haven't managed those players. It's not difficult to try out a couple of people in some friendlies. As I said, I'm not bothered about any attribute changes taking place. I want the BUGS fixed.

[Jhemo]

I think we should have "Vision" attribute in mental attributes. Higher vision attribute should give player to make better long passes(like Beckham, Xabi Alonso). By that way we can distinguish difference between good short passers and good long passers...

[bigdunk]

I think we should have "Vision" attribute in mental attributes. Higher vision attribute should give player to make better long passes(like Beckham, Xabi Alonso). By that way we can distinguish difference between good short passers and good long passers...

That's pretty much what creativity is in the game now.

[jayahr]

The same could be said of free kicks and long shots, but i'm sure you'll agree that players with a good long shot aren't necessarily a good free kick taker.

There have been examples throughout this thread of players who take corners, but aren't brilliant at crossing, my example was Evra, which someone picked up on, but they seemed to miss the point. Evra, imo, is a better crosser of than Giggs and Giggs a better crosser than Carrick, however, Carrick takes corners ahead of Giggs and Giggs takes corners ahgead of Evra, if it was based purely on crossing ability then it would be the reverse.

I'm not familiar enough with English football to judge on that. Would you say that Carrick takes the best corners out of those three or may this just be a manager decision with which people do not need to agree?

From what I see in Germany I find the best crossers are pretty much the best corner takers with only very few exceptions.

I agree with you in terms of free-kicks of course.

If the free-kick attribute did not exist, I would look at long shots, but also at crossing (for the curve of the ball), technique, flair and composure, also maybe at strength with longer distances in mind. Having done that I would feel reasonably assured to be able to make an informed choice about who to pick.

However with the attribute present, I'm confused what else to look at. How important (if at all) are those I mentioned aside the special attribute? I don't know, I can't know. I guess most users will not spend time on thinking about it and look at the special attribute only as it looks like then everything else is negligible. That's why I find the attribute misleading. It leads to users not making the right decisions, which is obviously bad.

Again, I'm more than fine if the special attributes stay, but they should already include everything which is needed to take the respective set piece. Thus, whatever and how much ever comes on top of other important attributes should be merged with these to one single figure which the user can look at and understand.

Right now, just like it was with tactics the current system is misleading and impossible to understand, even for experienced users.

And as I said above already, though that's a different thing really, I'm unhappy with the set free-kick taker options as well as irl I would distinguish at least 5 positions/situations of free-kicks for either side (right/left) in which I may or may not choose different people to take them. That's why I prefer to set no taker at all and let the AI handle it.

[edgar555]

To SCIAG and seftino:

I think you misunderstood almost everything. Please try again.

I never said that any attribute is the same as any other. Finishing IRL means much more then just short shooting.

SCIAG if you think that some attributes are irrelevant you don't understand the game.

He's actually understood what you've typed correctly. Your ideas are nonsense and if they are not what you meant then you need to re word your post.

[Hershie]

That's pretty much what creativity is in the game now.

Creativity + Anticipation + Teamwork.

Decisions will then have a part to play too.

[bigdunk]

Again, I'm more than fine if the special attributes stay, but they should already include everything which is needed to take the respective set piece. Thus, whatever and how much ever comes on top of other important attributes should be merged with these to one single figure which the user can look at and understand.

Right now, just like it was with tactics the current system is misleading and impossible to understand, even for experienced users.

That would only work if the other attributes were being factored in in the same amounts every single time. If say for freekicks, it's working along the lines of the further out you are, the more important long shots is, the closer you are, the more important finishing is, the more significant (in match result terms) the freekick is, the more important composure/handling pressure is and so on, then you can't combine them into a single figure.

[SCIAG]

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1385745/steven_gerrard_free_kick_compilation/

Thanks, that only proves my point. Most of them aren't free kicks, a few more don't go in. I counted, yes, two that were actually free kicks (the Villa one, and another that I can't remember the opposition for). The ball was rolling for most of them, therefore it is a long shot.

stationary -> set pieces

crossing -> as a slightly different skill to passing/shooting

it's more or less same technique or skill-how hood you're able to kick accurate ball at decent speed. can't think of any player being able to put good crosses who suck at corner taking. can't think of any player with good ability at set pieces who suck at corner taking. there's nothing fundamentaly wrong with corner attribute, it's just unnecesary problem for researchers. I could think of at least 5 attributes missing in game which are more important or attributes which could be seperated from existing ones.

the attribute which I fundamentaly disagree with is penalty taking. it's all about confidence and being able to take pressure, plus a little ability to kick the ball well.

Stephen Hunt is a fair corner taker (14ish) but a poor crosser. Frank Lampard looks good when he gets the ball wide and crosses, but he is terrible at corners, as Rolfe will tell you.

A string of fantastic posts

[Elrithral]

And as I said above already, though that's a different thing really, I'm unhappy with the set free-kick taker options as well as irl I would distinguish at least 5 positions/situations of free-kicks for either side (right/left) in which I may or may not choose different people to take them. That's why I prefer to set no taker at all and let the AI handle it.

That, I agree with! I don't want Drogba taking free kicks on the wide right, only when it's an attempt at goal.

[Erik7]

All the attributes I think are confusing:

Corners:

Ok, so it should be the mark for how good a player is at finding teammates in a box from the corner but do other attributes take their part? There are many others that can have effect on player’s corner taking ability. Crossing (being the first obvious one that many agree on), passing, creativity, first touch, flair, teamwork. Is there anyone that knows for certain whether those attributes have anything to do with corner taker ability to do a good job? If they do have an impact, why is this crossing mark there at all? If they don’t have an impact, that’s just wrong because it totally unrealistic to have a player without crossing, first touch or teamwork that is great at corners.

Crossing:

I'm kinda trying to understand crossing in fm as a long pass from a run from the flank. The problem is how can a player be terrible at passing and a great crosser. When does a long pass actually become a cross, when player is wide, or when he is in a run and wide or what? What if player stops the ball and then make a cross? This is the same as long pass, or is it?

Dribbling:

Because you have acceleration, technique, balance and agility this has to be a textbook knowledge of certain moves. The big problem for me is the fact that most of dribbling moves can’t be done without excellent technique yet we see a lot of players having good dribbling and no technique. Non technique dribbling is just down to acceleration, pace and balance.

Finishing:

Could be understood as a shooting inside the box. This is confusing because I regard any attempt at a goal as a finish attempt, being with a head or a knee or with a long shot or whatever. I believe that many attributes should have an impact on finishing.

Free kick taking:

Again like corner taking, many other attributes should have a massive impact and yet there is this attribute which alone decides a good taker or does it? There is a great point being made here that shooting from a FK and long pass from it is an entirely different thing and further, entirely different skill is needed for a shot from a 35 meters and from just outside the box.

Passing:

A long or a short pass? A passing accuracy or a passing speed or both? First touch and other obvious attributes having an impact or not?

Off the ball:

This is really a puzzle for me. “Decision” attribute is responsible for player deciding when it is a good time to make a forward run. Pace just obviously decides on how quick therefore how efficient someone moves without or with the ball. Work rate, whether or not a player is willing to run around the pitch, and so on.

Positioning:

Is this a defensive off the ball? Then is off the ball just attacking? Doesn’t other attributes like anticipation, concentration, etc. effect a good players position in a given time?

Physical attributes:

Seem almost fine to me. I just have a small issue with a balance and strength. Strength is an ability to maintain position if being pushed and the other way around if in offence mode. Is balance the same thing only while running?

So far, the attributes that I would like to see introduced to the game are long and short passing speed and accuracy. CURLING, being in a shot, pass, cross, free kick… would be a great one to have. That does not necessary mean any attribute would be taken away but it does mean the many attributes would have to rely on these. Like curling is the main skill at close range free kick and shot power is the same for long ones.

Many good points have been made here, some post were great and the others were “spot on”. I may be wrong but many ppl seems to me confused with point in this topic. This is not that much about understanding the current attribute system in the game as much it is about bringing it closer to reality in future Football Managers. At least I like to think so. I have no doubts that current attributes are faulty in so many ways and many are not understandable at all and just confusing. Anyone who sais they are just fine and understand them perfectly IMO doesn’t know what he’s talking about and is just fantasizing about what this and that mean, how this and that is done and such stuff.

[Elrithral]

Erik7, I think people aren't getting your point because your point is so convoluted and seems to ignore things that are apparant in every day life, not just football.

Is crossing just a long pass? No, it's crossing. Everyone who knows anything about football knows what crossing is and knows waht passing is.

Are balance and strength kinda the same thing? No, and not just in football, why would anyone think they were the same.

Finishing, many attributes do have an impact on finishing, the finishing attribtue if just a success frequency indicator.

Passing speed etc...passing is passing, you're either good at it or not. I don't see what passing speed has to do with anything, a pass is a pass and if it's done well it's done well, regardless of speed.

Off the ball, decisions help a player decide when it is good time to make a move, off the ball helps him decide which is the ebst move.

Positioning. A player might anticipate a pass and be concentrating on the play, they aren't necessarily in the right position to deal with it.

I have no doubts that current attributes are faulty in so many ways and many are not understandable at all and just confusing. Anyone who sais they are just fine and understand them perfectly IMO doesn’t know what he’s talking about and is just fantasizing about what this and that mean, how this and that is done and such stuff.

With all due respect, you're doing the same, just in a negative way. You're hypothesising about what attributes mean and implying that other attributes don't play a part in the end product, I think otherwise, but neither of us can prove our point without SI input.

[dking]

I think some peole are confused about what, exactly, technique is. Technique isnt a dribbling skill or a control skill, it's how you use the ball, it's more to do with intelligence, or desicions and passing.

As for crossings and corners, they are two entirely different things, in my opinion. Corners are done from a standing start, where as crossing is done under pressure and on the move, generally. Some people have the ability/balance etc to cross accurately at full speed and under pressure, where as some people dont, but they could be amazing at dead ball situations.

[Elrithral]

I think some peole are confused about what, exactly, technique is. Technique isnt a dribbling skill or a control skill, it's how you use the ball, it's more to do with intelligence, or desicions and passing.

Technique is the aesthetic quality of a player’s technical game – how refined they appear to be with the ball. A player with high technique will be more likely to pull off a tricky pass or a cross-field ball with greater ease than someone less technically able. This in turn affects a number of technical attributes – poorer technique will let a player down.

Technique is the players ability to complete something difficult, a trick, a difficult pass, execute a free kick, strike a ball etc. It affects almost every technical attribute.

[dking]

Technique is the players ability to complete something difficult, a trick, a difficult pass, execute a free kick, strike a ball etc. It affects almost every technical attribute.

In real life or in the game?

I was taught that technique was how intelligentely the ball was used, like never giving possesion away, for instance. (i did a fifa coaching badge) I would say somebody like alonso would have very high technique. Not a good dribbler, but very high technical ability.

[Elmo]

But his technique rubs off on his passing ability.

[dking]

But his technique rubs off on his passing ability.

Yes it does.

[bigdunk]

I've always taken technique to be how well you do the fundamentals of football. It's not necessarily a specific skill or anything, but it affects all of your ball-related attributes (first touch, passing, crossing, dribbling, finishing etc). I would guess it becomes more apparent in more pressured situations. Less technically gifted players are more likely to struggle under pressure, but the good technical players have these basics to fall back on. If that makes sense.

[Hershie]

If you have rubbish technique you may know exactly what you want to with the ball, be a perfect reader of the game, but not be able to pull off what you want to.

[Erik7]

Erik7, I think people aren't getting your point because your point is so convoluted and seems to ignore things that are apparant in every day life, not just football.

I'm not sure what convoluted means, but if it means complicated without a good reason, to me, obviously it is not. That is just the way my mind works and I believe that some things in life are more complex then what ppl in general think and regard them as apparent. IMO that kind of understanding the world is not intellectual and there for simpleminded. You do understand that game doesn't necessary reflect the real life and is prone to subjective views of programmers and their talent in simulating laws of nature. So there is no point of telling me what goes on IRL and you have to assume that I am not crazy and that I know what life is.

Is crossing just a long pass? No, it's crossing. Everyone who knows anything about football knows what crossing is and knows what passing is.

You are simplifying what I am saying. Tell me then what do you think makes the difference between long pass and a cross.

Are balance and strength kinda the same thing? No, and not just in football, why would anyone think they were the same.

the same as above.

Finishing, many attributes do have an impact on finishing, the finishing attribtue if just a success frequency indicator.

And you have no problem with this? What if all the stats but finishing are rubbish? Is it then a success frequency indicator?

Passing speed etc...passing is passing, you're either good at it or not. I don't see what passing speed has to do with anything, a pass is a pass and if it's done well it's done well, regardless of speed.

And the long pass I presume is the same as the short one and you think that all the players that pass good on the ground does it in the air too? As for the speed, it is the speed of the ball when passed and it has to do with the power of a players kick which is not the same as how accurate the pass is.

Off the ball, decisions help a player decide when it is good time to make a move, off the ball helps him decide which is the ebst move.

Are you sure about that?

Positioning. A player might anticipate a pass and be concentrating on the play, they aren't necessarily in the right position to deal with it.

How could tell then anticipation had an impact on on a player at given time? You can by he's expression on 3d view that he's anticipated something?

With all due respect, you're doing the same, just in a negative way. You're hypothesising about what attributes mean and implying that other attributes don't play a part in the end product, I think otherwise, but neither of us can prove our point without SI input.

Fair enough. Al do I do think that I have some evidence to backup my view. What is the point of free kick attribute if many other ones ads up to make a good FK taker. Also FK can be good and all the others bad.

[Elrithral]

In real life or in the game?

I was taught that technique was how intelligentely the ball was used, like never giving possesion away, for instance. (i did a fifa coaching badge) I would say somebody like alonso would have very high technique. Not a good dribbler, but very high technical ability.

In general, in game and irl. How often do you hear "lovely technique" when a player controls a ball or strikes a ball? Technique is technical ability in general, for every technical ability there must be an element of technique in executing it and to pigeon hole such a general term seems illogical.

A player dribbling a ball will be controlling a ball and not giving it away, by definition his technical ability will affect his ability to keep possession in a dribbling scenario, which means that dribbling is affected by technique and how good a player is at dribbling is directly affected by technique.

[RT--]

I'm not sure I agree with the free-kicks and corners thing, even though I can see where the guys are coming from.

Two attributes where I think this does make more sense are two of the hidden, personality attributes: consistency and important matches.

I don't understand why players need absolute values for those things, when we already have things like professionalism, pressure, determination, adaptability, work rate, ambition, etc.

In real life, inconsistent players are inconsistent for a variety of reasons - perhaps because they're injury-prone and never fully fit, perhaps because they don't adapt well to new countries or positions, or because they have low determination, professionalism, maybe a lack of ambition or because they're not motivated to play for their manager or team-mates. All these things are already modelled by the game, so I don't understand why there's an over-riding 'consistency' attribute.

The same goes for 'important matches' - if players don't play well in big games, it's usually because they can't handle pressure well, or perhaps because they're not ambitious enough, etc. I don't see the need for a standalone 'important matches' attribute either.

One of the challenges of football management should be to take talented but inconsistent players and to man-manage them (through press comments, team talks, etc.) in order to get the most out of them. If each player comes with a fixed inconsistency attribute, though, that's basically impossible.

[Elrithral]

You are simplifying what I am saying. Tell me then what do you think makes the difference between long pass and a cross.

A long pass should, in theory, be delivered to a man, a cross can be delivered into an area, across the box. A long pass will more often than not be delivered when the player has time on the ball, to pick a pass and pick a man, a cross more often than not will be delivered under pressure or while running with the ball.

the same as above.

Balance reflects simply how well a player can keep his balance in situations both with and without the ball. With the ball, it refers to how balanced he is running with it and evading opponents, without it, it refers to his balance when facing a player running at him, or his stability when turning/jumping.

A player’s strength is his ability to exert his physical force on an opponent to his benefit. A player with a high strength rating will be able to use it to his advantage against weaker opponents.

Taken from the manual.

And you have no problem with this? What if all the stats but finishing are rubbish? Is it then a success frequency indicator?

Yes. Rubbish atts, but good finishing, the player will finish more than a player with rubbish atts and rubbish finishing. Simples.

And the long pass I presume is the same as the short one and you think that all the players that pass good on the ground does it in the air too? As for the speed, it is the speed of the ball when passed and it has to do with the power of a players kick which is not the same as how accurate the pass is.

Short and long, you may have a point. Otherwise, I don't think there's any basis for it whatsoever.

Are you sure about that?

A player’s movement without the ball. Similar to Anticipation, this is how well a player, particularly attacking ones, can assess a situation and then move off the ball, making themselves available to receive a pass in a dangerous position.

Again, taken from the manual.

How would then anticipation have an impact on on a player? You can by he's expression on 3d view that he's anticipated something?

His reaction to the situation whether he is in a poor position or not. A player with poor positioning and poor anticipation may be in a poor position and not anticipate a through ball, hence his ability to recover will not be as good as a player in a poor position with good anticipation.

Fair enough. Al do I do think that I have some evidence to backup my view. What is the point of free kick attribute if many other ones ads up to make a good FK taker. Also FK can be good and all the others bad.

This has been discussed over and over again, if you choose to ignore sensible posts and ask the same question over and over again, don't a) expect a respionse, b) expect a pleasant response. My response is, if you hoenstly don't think this has already been answered, read the thread until you understand it.

[Hershie]

You are simplifying what I am saying. Tell me then what do you think makes the difference between long pass and a cross.

A long pass is a pass over a long distance, be it to a player or into space. A cross is the ability to put the ball into an area from a wide position, often under more pressure or while on the move/running. It's a different technical skill entirely.

the same as above.

Balance is the ability to stay on your feet, for example when challenged while running, or recovering from being tackled. Strength is your physical presence. If you have a strong physical presence but poor balance, you may be prone to falling over when tackled or challenged (Heskey) while if you have good balance but poor strength you may be able to shrug off challenges, and find it easier to keep the ball when going past a defender trying to to tackle you, but your lack of strength may hinder the ability to get past someone shielding the ball or forcing you out wide or out of play.

And you have no problem with this? What if all the stats but finishing are rubbish? Is it then a success frequency indicator?

If all stats but finishing are rubbish then the player in question may be a good finisher, and if presented a chance may be clinical, if not through composure but simply through the ability to put the ball into a hard to save area - but they may be unlikely to find themselves in such a position.

And the long pass I presume is the same as the short one and you think that all the players that pass good on the ground does it in the air too? As for the speed, it is the speed of the ball when passed and it has to do with the power of a players kick which is not the same as how accurate the pass is.

Passing is the ability to pick out your target with a pass. The mental stats (+ technique) will determine how far you can see a pass, how well you can pull a harder pass off, and how well you judge the required power etc to make the ball reach the target successfully. A player with better creativity and decisions may see the merits of a pass over the top rather than through players on the ground, but without passing ability and technique cannot neccessarily pull it off. Without good anticipation they may put the ball into an area where their target is not - particularly with through balls, regardless of their accuracy.

Are you sure about that?

Elrithral is more or less correct. Better off the ball ability will allow the player to make better, more considered runs, while decisions will impact whether or not it is considered appropriate. Anticipation will also help them read any passes.

How would then anticipation have an impact on on a player? You can by he's expression on 3d view that he's anticipated something?

Anticipation is the ability to read where the ball is going to go, where players are going to move etc, and positioning is the ability to be in the right position to deal with it.

[Erik7]

You are just illustrating my point further and I would really be happy if you could see that. I have never argued that a cross is the same as long pass, just that it is similar enough to have them correlated. The same goes for every other attribute I've ever mentioned.

As for the Free kick, I certainly have no intention of talking it out any further. I mentioned only as response on that quote there. And as an evidence for the point I am making.

[Hershie]

If they're not the same, they're different. Merging them would thus be illogical.

[Elrithral]

You are just illustrating my point further and I would really be happy if you could see that. I have never argued that a cross is the same as long pass, just that it is similar enough to have them correlated. The same goes for every other attribute I've ever mentioned.

Yes, and we don't agree that they are similar at all, so...

[dking]

In general, in game and irl. How often do you hear "lovely technique" when a player controls a ball or strikes a ball? Technique is technical ability in general, for every technical ability there must be an element of technique in executing it and to pigeon hole such a general term seems illogical.

A player dribbling a ball will be controlling a ball and not giving it away, by definition his technical ability will affect his ability to keep possession in a dribbling scenario, which means that dribbling is affected by technique and how good a player is at dribbling is directly affected by technique.

A player dribbling a ball is not necesarily technically gifted. Aaron lennon for example. Far from technichally gifted. On the other hand, xabi alonso is extremely technically gifted but cannot dribble.

As for pigeon holeing - These are actually facts brought to my attention by a proffesional coach, teaching and representing fifa. I thought i knew what technique was aswell, until i was correctly informed. As i said in my first post here, i think people just presume they know what technique is, its just an educated guess, an assumption. You said it yourself "how often do you hear 'lovely technique' when a player controls or strikes a ball?", thus implying that your just repeating what you have heard at a football match or from some commentary. It's a common miss-conception. I am dealing with facts, and not assumptions or eductaed guesses.

[Elrithral]

A player dribbling a ball is not necesarily technically gifted. Aaron lennon for example. Far from technichally gifted. On the other hand, xabi alonso is extremely technically gifted but cannot dribble.

I'm not saying they are technically gifted if they can dribble, i'm saying it takes some level of technical ability to complete a decent dribble. It's not black and white, either or, it's a mixture and the best players have a better mixture than others.

Didn't the Fifa Coaching Course cover this?

[Erik7]

OK then. I'm not happy. I guess logic means various thing to various ppl... If that is the way you see things I'll have to say that IMO you have no logic and again that's just my opinion.

[Hershie]

OK then. I'm not happy. I guess logic means various thing to various ppl... If that is the way you see things I'll have to say that IMO you have no logic and again that's just my opinion.

Logic is surely best when things are clear. If you merge things to create one blurred and vague stat, where's the logic there? :confused: