No English teams are overrated thread?

[Suge]

tomtuck, disagree with that but can't really be arsed to debate with you right now, long hours at work an all that.

Maybe I will come back to it later.

[earmack]

English player aren't overated thats just what people who rarely watch their foreign counterparts play club football think. Go and watch some Italians play for Udinese vs AC Milan then come back and say how overated ENGLISH players are.

To me the most overated players in the world (based on this season form) are: Ronaldinho, Kaka and Eto'o. None of them have been anything other than average and at most times they've been absolutely....well crap. Doubt many of you will agree though because they have nice foreign sounding names (who needs to see them play when their name is so exotic!!!).

[Neji]

Not this debate again!

[7crofty7]

what u have to remember is that football has now become a more business type game, so transfer fees don't matter if u can afford them, as Manchester United can! In addition the ngland players are overrated internationally not domestically as they are superb in our leagues but do not fit together like a team.

[nelsonmcjones]

Arsenal may have spent £10m+ on Walcott but at least he's good.

My team, West Ham, spent £££££s on much worse players: Dyer, Parker, Cole, Zamora, etc...

The worst waste of money on an overrated Englishman however has to go to...(and I hate to say it 'cos he's a legend) Harry Redknapp. Dave Nugent? Get back in the fizzy-pop leagues where you belong.

NB. 'Arry did redeem himself with Defoe and Diarra.

[HHUK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtuck01:

And the Fernando Torres deal was financially worth £26million, but that was only because Luis Garciia went to Atletico Madrid in the same deal. Had Garcia not gone to Atletico, I think you would have seen the fee top the £30million mark. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Torres went in a deal worth £26 million.

Luis Garcia was a seperate deal where Athletico paid £4 million for him. Athletico enquired when Liverpool had made their £26 million offer, although it may have had an impact on the deal it can't be of too much significance. But then again.. Luis Garcia wanted to join Athletico, Liverpool might just have caved in.

Strictly, if you wish to combine it it's worth £22 million plus Luis Garcia.

[ivanmcswerve]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick-Scott Ervinseuf:

**** THE PROOF THAT arsenal IS EVIL ****

A R S E N A L

65 82 83 69 78 65 76 - as ASCII values

2 1 2 6 6 2 4 - digits added

\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_________/

2 1 2 6 3 - digits added

Thus, "arsenal" is 21263.

Turn the number backwards, divide by 11 - the symbol of judgment and disorder. The number is now 3292.

Add 4391 to it - this is the year Shirley Temple starred in her first movie, written backwards - you will get 7683.

Multiply it by 3, the symbol of fulfillment - the number is now 23049.

Subtract 6661 from the number - this is the year of the Great London Fire, written backwards. It gives 16388.

Subtract 1181, the year UFO was first observed in China and Japan. The result will be 15207.

Write 1976 backwards. Translate it to octal - this will give you 15207. Thus, 15207 stands for 1976, the year George Harrison performed the lumberjack song with Monty Python - if you have seen it, you should understand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you have too much time on your hands bud

[paduardo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ivanmcswerve:

Originally posted by Patrick-Scott Ervinseuf:

**** THE PROOF THAT arsenal IS EVIL ****

A R S E N A L

65 82 83 69 78 65 76 - as ASCII values

2 1 2 6 6 2 4 - digits added

\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_________/

2 1 2 6 3 - digits added

Thus, "arsenal" is 21263.

Turn the number backwards, divide by 11 - the symbol of judgment and disorder. The number is now 3292.

Add 4391 to it - this is the year Shirley Temple starred in her first movie, written backwards - you will get 7683.

Multiply it by 3, the symbol of fulfillment - the number is now 23049.

Subtract 6661 from the number - this is the year of the Great London Fire, written backwards. It gives 16388.

Subtract 1181, the year UFO was first observed in China and Japan. The result will be 15207.

Write 1976 backwards. Translate it to octal - this will give you 15207. Thus, 15207 stands for 1976, the year George Harrison performed the lumberjack song with Monty Python - if you have seen it, you should understand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Pricey85]

At the end of the day i don't think that the lack of talented English players in the EPL can be attributed entirely to the EPL teams. If there was sufficient investment in grassroots football in this country then nearly all of the points raised in this thread would be dealt with to some degree or other.

When asked why he tended to look abroad for up and coming young players, Arsene Wenger stated that teams in England were asking ludicrous prices for their youngsters. This is a fair enough point and as a previous poster said 99% of people will opt for the cheaper option.

Now investment in grass roots football in theory should increase the number of viable English stars coming through the youth system. This should in turn lower the price of young English players due to the capacity to meet demand being increased. And it goes without saying but, increase in effective yout players = depth and strength in the national side.

I think i lost the plot halfway through this post. Ah screw it.

[Guest]

The original poster was making the point that there's always threads about Premiership teams being overrated, when 3 teams in the European Cup semi-finals two years in a row suggests otherwise.

It's got nothing to do with English players, just English teams.

[nelsonmcjones]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tubbycrabs:

It's got nothing to do with English players, just English teams. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not having a go tubby but that is the problem. English players should be something to do with English clubs 'cos I don't see any foreign clubs quing up to buy them.

The OP was a comment on the success of English clubs and the more people who see a separation of English clubs and English players as acceptable the worse for the game in general and the England team in particular IMHO.

[MSCCG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtuck01:

But what Im saying is that it's a silly rule!! And yes, being able to sign a player for next to nothing at that age after he has been trained at another club for so long is flaw in the rules, therefore a loophole.

Just because it's "in the game" doesn't make it right............................for me, and im sure many others, Arsenal only have 2 homegrown players in their 1st team squad, those being Theo Walcott and Justin Hoyte. The others are foreigners, not homegrown talent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I'm sure many people consider players like Fabregas as home grown. Also there would be even more people who would consider Walcott as not being homegrown for Arsenal. I'm also sure that when everybody interprets rules in their own way then no one will ever be happy. This rule isn't just in the game obviously these are the official rules. As I explained in my first post laws allow any eu worker to work in the eu and football is considered a paid occupation then it is illegal to stop them from working where they like. Also I have also pointed out that the way a player is obtained by a club has no bearing on his status as a homegrown player. If you are speaking of homegrown as players bought in good faith then you have to realize that it is the player who decides to do this as well as the club offering them a way. If you are speaking in terms of only English players being homegrown then in my opinion that is a very unfair point of view as I'm sure players like Fabregas have just as much loyalty to the club as Walcott, maybe even more but simply forgotten just because of the fact that he isn't English. When you think about Owen Hargreaves you see this in another way. He is English. But definitely not homegrown. How is he different from Fabregas? Scholes retired from international football in his prime years, is he considered English? There are many UK and Irish players in EPL teams. Why are they generally considered to be "more" English than others and have less stigma directed at them if this issue is referring to the wellbeing of the English national side and not the UK as a whole?

I'm going to risk offending you by saying that if you wanted to say that English players should be preferred over non-English players in the EPL then there is no way that you could have remained PC while expressing that opinion. You and everybody else are entitled to have your own opinion and it is always good to have different points of view and my opinion is that there can be nothing done about the rules as they must remain politically correct and that improvements in the playing level of English youngsters should see this trend changing. As a foreigner living in my country for most of my life I consider myself a part of my country and expect to be treated like so. I would be gutted if after all my hard work people would still pick others over me in jobs, or let other people into clubs over me because they judge me by my appearance or my status as a person not born in this country. I would cry. Twice. And I don't blame you for not seeing that point of view if you were born in your own country.

[tomtuck01]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSCCG:

And I'm sure many people consider players like Fabregas as home grown. Also there would be even more people who would consider Walcott as not being homegrown for Arsenal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have completely missed my point...............................Im not saying that Walcott is homegrown at Arsenal, but he is homegrown because he is English. Francesc Fabregas is a foreigner, he is not English, therefore is not homegrown.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted bu MSCCG:

This rule isn't just in the game obviously these are the official rules. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSCCG:

As I explained in my first post laws allow any eu worker to work in the eu and football is considered a paid occupation then it is illegal to stop them from working where they like </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never disputed that fact.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted MSCCG:

Also I have also pointed out that the way a player is obtained by a club has no bearing on his status as a homegrown player. If you are speaking of homegrown as players bought in good faith then you have to realize that it is the player who decides to do this as well as the club offering them a way. If you are speaking in terms of only English players being homegrown then in my opinion that is a very unfair point of view as I'm sure players like Fabregas have just as much loyalty to the club as Walcott, maybe even more but simply forgotten just because of the fact that he isn't English. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does have a bearing on whether he is homegrown or not, because Fabregas, e'tal are not English, and are therfore {B]not[/b] homegrown. And I never disputed the fact that players such as Fabregas don't care and aren't loyal to the club the play for. Infact that never came onto my radar.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSCCG:

When you think about Owen Hargreaves you see this in another way. He is English. But definitely not homegrown. How is he different from Fabregas? Scholes retired from international football in his prime years, is he considered English? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Technically speaking Owen Hargreaves isn't actually English because he was born in Canada, he just happens to qualify to play for England through he parentage. And you are right, he is not homegrown and not different from Fabregas at all.

Personally if UEFA/FIFA brought in a proper quota system and not the stupid one they have now, then Hargreaves should not fall under the catergory of "homegrown." Neither, like Ive said all the long, should players such as Fabregas who are brought over here at the age of 15/16.

And of course Scholes is considered English. He was born here and has lived in England all his life. Why you have mentioned him is beyond me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSCCG:

I'm going to risk offending you by saying that if you wanted to say that English players should be preferred over non-English players in the EPL then there is no way that you could have remained PC while expressing that opinion. You and everybody else are entitled to have your own opinion and it is always good to have different points of view and my opinion is that there can be nothing done about the rules as they must remain politically correct and that improvements in the playing level of English youngsters should see this trend changing. As a foreigner living in my country for most of my life I consider myself a part of my country and expect to be treated like so. I would be gutted if after all my hard work people would still pick others over me in jobs, or let other people into clubs over me because they judge me by my appearance or my status as a person not born in this country. I would cry. Twice. And I don't blame you for not seeing that point of view if you were born in your own country. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do see that point of view, but football is completely different to every other form of employment.......................or have you not noticed that throughout the years?

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtuck01:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSCCG:

I'm going to risk offending you by saying that if you wanted to say that English players should be preferred over non-English players in the EPL then there is no way that you could have remained PC while expressing that opinion. You and everybody else are entitled to have your own opinion and it is always good to have different points of view and my opinion is that there can be nothing done about the rules as they must remain politically correct and that improvements in the playing level of English youngsters should see this trend changing. As a foreigner living in my country for most of my life I consider myself a part of my country and expect to be treated like so. I would be gutted if after all my hard work people would still pick others over me in jobs, or let other people into clubs over me because they judge me by my appearance or my status as a person not born in this country. I would cry. Twice. And I don't blame you for not seeing that point of view if you were born in your own country. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do see that point of view, but football is completely different to every other form of employment.......................or have you not noticed that throughout the years? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmm..... How is it different? The club employ players to make them money? I think you forget that football is only a business. if no-one watched the ga,es or bought the shirts then they, like a tv company not selling tvs, would go out of business.

I think you are getting confused over what businesses actually are.. Football is exactly like any other business, they are selling their trade, which is entertainment and the players provide it. Hence why they have to abide by ALL EU LAWS. Theres no room for your remarks that you have been teetering on xenophobic tendencies and your arguments are futile. Simple as that.

[glamdring]

How many other businesses buy and sell employees?

As far as I'm aware most businesses have employees on contracts where if you give notice you can leave the company after the notice period and likewise with the company terminating your employment. Obviously that doesn't apply to fixed term contracts or whatever other types of contract there are though.

[tomtuck01]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Midge:

Ummmm..... How is it different? The club employ players to make them money? I think you forget that football is only a business. if no-one watched the ga,es or bought the shirts then they, like a tv company not selling tvs, would go out of business.

I think you are getting confused over what businesses actually are.. Football is exactly like any other business, they are selling their trade, which is entertainment and the players provide it. Hence why they have to abide by ALL EU LAWS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have to ask why it is different then you're a bit lost................of course it is different. Football has only become a business in the past 10-15 years. It was not invented to be a business, but to serve as entertainment to the public. the business aspect has only exploded over the past 20-25 years.

And no they dont abide by All EU LAWS. The transfer window is a clear breach of EU Law as it is a restriction of trade............so you are wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Midge:

Theres no room for your remarks that you have been teetering on xenophobic tendencies and your arguments are futile. Simple as that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes there is room for my remarks because it is my opinion. It is called "feedom of speach"

And jut because Im not being politically correct does not mean Im being xenophobic. Those remarks are not appreciated and are very disparaging towards my character.

Also, my arguments are not futile. Just because you choose not to agree with my point of view does not mean that my arguments are serving no purpose.

[Muncey]

Derby just got into UEFA on my game (first season), in real life their on track to have the worst premiership season in history.

City are bloody overrated too. Richards for one is **** in real life, played one good game AT RB for england and now he's a super CB?! He's terrible at CB.. worst positioning and marking i've ever seen. Titus Bramble in the making.

[tomtuck01]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Muncey:

City are bloody overrated too. Richards for one is **** in real life, played one good game AT RB for england and now he's a super CB?! He's terrible at CB.. worst positioning and marking i've ever seen. Titus Bramble in the making. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes Manchester City are overrated in game.

But Micah Richards is a very good player. He has played many good games for Man City so far in his career, aswell as some solid performances for England in his short time in the game.

[Muncey]

Yeah he's a good player, i just think he's better at RB, he's fast and powerful and we saw for england he was a beast at right back. Whereas at CB he makes a lot of mistakes, maybe due to his age? I don't know.

(i know hes left now) Bianchi was ridiuclous, 20 for finishing, 19 for heading aswell as other amazing attributes. Yet city never played him and as a result loaned him to lazio. I hated playing against him.

[tomtuck01]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Muncey:

Yeah he's a good player, i just think he's better at RB, he's fast and powerful and we saw for england he was a beast at right back. Whereas at CB he makes a lot of mistakes, maybe due to his age? I don't know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is most likely down to his age. Simply just a lack of experience. As he gets older his positioning and awareness should get better, atleast you'd hope so!

[Guest Rossauskas]

I wouldn't say that having three english sides (I'm Scottish so no bias here ) in the semis necessarily reflects the strength of the Premierhsip as a whole, but the strength of the top four sides. Realsitically theres only an outside chance of anyone else breaking in to the Champions League places (and even then only Spurs, Everton or Pompey look likely to in the short to mid term). Couple this with the performance of the English sides in the Uefa Cup it doesn't exactly scream "strength in depth".

Look at Spain for example - last year they had 3/4 in the semis of the Uefa Cup (two of these being Osasuna and Espanyol, not traditionally "big clubs" even domestically) and 3(?) in the last 8 of the CL.

Even this season, Getafe's performance in the Uefa Cup was impressive for what is in European terms a tiny club, and were very unlucky not to progress even further. Until sides outside the big 4 (which could become a big three if Liverpool don;t get their act together domestically) then its hard to argue that the Prem is the strongest when its only based on the performance of the 4 biggest teams.

[ToonForever]

To me the most overated players in the world (based on this season form) are: Ronaldinho, Kaka and Eto'o. None of them have been anything other than average and at most times they've been absolutely....well crap. Doubt many of you will agree though because they have nice foreign sounding names (who needs to see them play when their name is so exotic!!!).

"Kaka" is *not* a "nice-sounding" foreign name :-)

[nelsonmcjones]

Really? 'cos I'm cookoo for Kaka...