cinch Premiership Data discussion

On 23/10/2022 at 09:58, Stuart Milne said:

When it comes to both Birighitti and Eriksson, they have both come in to the Scottish database with good pedigrees, as both international caps and on the back of receiving credit for being the top goalkeeper in the respective leagues they have come from. As he's now been here since January Eriksson has had a mild current ability drop (though one that will still see him picked for Finland) , but Birighitti hasn't. Both are rated around the rough mark for decent at SPFL Premiership level in terms of their Current Ability. If by January there's any doubt on that, they will be reviewed. As a Dundee Utd fan, nobody needs to tell me that they are a little bit suspect 

Now that being said, I think what you've done is make a case for the argument that stats are only as useful as you want them to be to suit an argument. Birighitti, in spite of flogging a few goals, especially vs Alkmaar and Hearts actually has one of the highest save percentages in the league. So to me, that would suggest he is actually worth a good score on reflexes. 13 goals in 5 games only tells some part of the story. And it's similar to Eriksson and how he conceded 17 goals in 8 games. Well, I would argue - and I say this in spite of me personally not rating him very highly - of the 9 goals he conceded in that game against Celtic, 0 were his fault and he couldn't realistically have expected to save any of them.

So United had a very poor start to the season and I had to think about that, wonder why it was and reflect it in the attributes. Is it that they were bad players who deserved reductions across the board? For me, no. It was that there were a lot of decent players who had shown that they weren't brave and the midfield especially had no aggression. So those are the stats that have been updated.

On a general level, and I say this on here every year, I know that there's often a disconnect between the priorities of the research team and how we rate based on the hidden attributes such as current ability and how that links in with how it is weighted against attributes, and what the players of the game consider most important, which are the individual attributes.

So, on that note, physical attributes such as  pace and acceleration are among the most important attributes in terms of how they are weighted. Mulgrew has 6s and 7s for pace. acceleration and agility. To be able to still put in the level of performances he did last season (jury is still out on this season but it's not the first few games of a season we tend to rate based on) in spite of being slow, he has to know where to position himself effectively. And he does, hence the high rating for defensive positioning. That doesn't make him a better player in the game than Goldson though. The balance of Mulgrew's attributes makes him a player with a Current Ability of 110; someone who would be picked in the Dundee United starting 11. He wouldn't get picked in Rangers starting 11. Goldson's balance of attributes makes him a player with a Current Ability of 138.

There's a difference there.

 

Appreciate the detailed response!

Yeah I'll be honest, I am being a bit harsh on Birighitti and Eriksson. Like I was saying to MrHappypill r.e. Kio at Hearts, perhaps there is an element of confidence that leads to the poor performances too. I can understand keeping Eriksson's CA within the region where he's picked for Finland given you probably have limited control over the other leagues.

I understand your point with the stats only being as useful to suit an argument but they surely still need to be the driving factor in deciding player attributes in FM (my biggest area for concern with this is actually with Rangers in my original post). In the context of United, take for example my argument about Ryan Edwards' heading - I'm just not clear at all on how its up at 19 unless I'm missing something whenever I see you guys play. I understand wanting to keep CAs within certain regions so the "right team" gets picked during the first season but surely you don't need to give someone a 19 to do that?

I appreciate the explanation about Mulgrew - I'm probably judging him too much based on the surface level appearance as he just looks simply incredible and far too good for the SPFL but if pace is rated so highly as to put the CA down to 110 that's fair enough. It's difficult to discuss the positioning attribute as there's nothing really to base it on stats wise so I assume you guys will have dropped Mulgrew's pace and tuned this so that his rating remains within realistic bounds? I can see similar values given to Jagielka, Winston Reid, Daniel Ayala etc so I can see where you're coming from here with your rationale.

On Alex Lowry's injury, has he not had 2 separate injury's this season, as he was injured during pre-season but came back and played for the B team for several games before being injured against Dumbarton. His first game back this season was at the start of August.    

5 hours ago, McKay96 said:

Appreciate the detailed response!

Yeah I'll be honest, I am being a bit harsh on Birighitti and Eriksson. Like I was saying to MrHappypill r.e. Kio at Hearts, perhaps there is an element of confidence that leads to the poor performances too. I can understand keeping Eriksson's CA within the region where he's picked for Finland given you probably have limited control over the other leagues.

I understand your point with the stats only being as useful to suit an argument but they surely still need to be the driving factor in deciding player attributes in FM (my biggest area for concern with this is actually with Rangers in my original post). In the context of United, take for example my argument about Ryan Edwards' heading - I'm just not clear at all on how its up at 19 unless I'm missing something whenever I see you guys play. I understand wanting to keep CAs within certain regions so the "right team" gets picked during the first season but surely you don't need to give someone a 19 to do that?

I appreciate the explanation about Mulgrew - I'm probably judging him too much based on the surface level appearance as he just looks simply incredible and far too good for the SPFL but if pace is rated so highly as to put the CA down to 110 that's fair enough. It's difficult to discuss the positioning attribute as there's nothing really to base it on stats wise so I assume you guys will have dropped Mulgrew's pace and tuned this so that his rating remains within realistic bounds? I can see similar values given to Jagielka, Winston Reid, Daniel Ayala etc so I can see where you're coming from here with your rationale.

Yeah, pretty much.

I think when it comes to any attribute taken in isolation, it's easy to do a comparison and say Player X should be better than Player Y or whatever, but ultimately it's the mix of all the attributes that makes a player what he is.

If Mulgrew has lost his pace, to be able to sustain at the level he's still playing he needs to have compensated with mental attributes, meanwhile if Ryan Edwards is great at heading, then he should have a high rating for it. He came in with a high rating and I've never really sought to change that because I look at him and think that it's a strength. If all Edwards had to do was stand there and header it he'd be amazing, but there's more to defending than that.

That being said, I'll keep an eye on the heading stats and amend in January if needed.

Not sure where to put this, its not a bug as such. Ive just finished my first season with Rangers. the commercial summary at seasons end say that we've sold 31,050 shirts. Which seems completely unrealistic. What drive the number for sales in game?

https://www.rangers.co.uk/Article/rangers-supporters-break-kit-sales-record-with-new-store-in-glasgow-airport/3O1y5cYT4Y8vBGaYMUL3MC

This story from the offical Rangers site from August 2021 says that the club sold over 250,000 shirts. That story was found after a quick google search. 

 

One more thing, I dont tend to get into to much of a discussion over stats one thing I do think is off is James Tavernier's leadership. Id say that in terms of the Rangers squad that Davis, Goldson and McGregor are clearly 3 of the main leaders in that dressing room but Tavernier is close to them. Id suggest that with 18,17 and 17 for the earlier 3 there's an arguement to be had that Tav should be just behind them (16 maybe). One thing that happens because Tavernier has a lower leadership number is that you constantly get messages to replace him as captain. That shouldnt be the case. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by jimbo22

Not sure if anyone has raised this:

 

Josh Ginnelly in FM23 is white which is not the case. 

 

44 minutes ago, Dehxy said:

Not sure if anyone has raised this:

 

Josh Ginnelly in FM23 is white which is not the case. 

 

He shouldn't be? He's mixed race / skin tone 12, in the database and looking back, it's not been changed from previous versions.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Giro

24 minutes ago, Giro said:

He shouldn't be? He's mixed race / skin tone 12, in the database and looking back, it's not been changed from previous versions.

I know the quality is low but not sure what else I can do to make it more clear. Circled in blue is Ginnelly.

On 20/10/2022 at 19:20, aaronmcginn1 said:

Momodou Bojang is on loan at Hibernian from Rainbow FC in The Gambia. Database currently has him as a permanent Hibs player.

 

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/article/career-so-far-momodou-bojang

The Hibs researcher told us that Rainbow are so small they're not in any database, reason he was in it last year was he was on loan at Famalicao in Portugal. hence the 1 year deal just to have him in.

23 minutes ago, Dehxy said:

I know the quality is low but not sure what else I can do to make it more clear. Circled in blue is Ginnelly.

See, maybe it's my eyes, the screenie, but I'm seeing tanned there?

Like I say, the appearance data hasn't been changed since he arrived in the Scottish db but JamboJapp will look at it. Database has been locked for a wee while now though.

11 hours ago, Dehxy said:

Not sure if anyone has raised this:

 

Josh Ginnelly in FM23 is white which is not the case. 

 

Must be a bug as he's black in my game. Not sure where the bug should be reported tho tbh.

I assume the fact hibs capacity at easter road is wrong? 20,246 is what the game has. It's 20,421. 

22 minutes ago, marclindie said:

I assume the fact hibs capacity at easter road is wrong? 20,246 is what the game has. It's 20,421. 

I noticed this for a few clubs. In some places, the clubs state "used capacity" to suggest they have the seats but they don't use them. For example I know Pittodrie is listed as 19,672 in the DB while their site has it as 20,961. Rugby park is down as 15,343 but Kilmarnock say it's 15,003

The SPFL confirm what they want to be listed as used capacity for clubs.

Not sure if this is the relevant place to ask this but with the introduction on VAR this month will we see it integrated into the SPFL on FM23?

I'm 99.9% sure Matty Cudjoe at Dundee United is left footed having watched him a lot but he is listed as right footed in the game. Here is a link that also thinks he is left footed too. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mathew-anim-cudjoe/profil/spieler/701322

Aaron Mooy:

He was not performing his best, understandably attempting for a move away for 2022, so we couldn't boldly see his underperformance as a dip in ability(apart from we are sure about him missing pre-season and therefore certainly not in best condition).

His last match was a cup final which we analysed as a crucial reference(quite assuring he's gonna do his best to win it), but could see he sometimes couldn't do his best due to previously not in his best form as often. And that's back in Jan. 

So fellow researcher who took over him after summer transfer window would have better saying about his latest status, not worry about his situation while with us, hope this helps in some way.

Edit, found a more appropriate thread.

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by jimbo22

The biggest stand out database issue is Ryan Kent determination stat, 3 determination is clearly way to low for him or for any top professinal player for that matter, there always seems to be a red flag issue with a player in the determination stat every FM. Alex Sandro was really low last year like 5, i reported it and it got incresed to like 12 in the march database update, as if it was a database mistake.

Edited November 21, 2022 by iAlwaysWin

Laurie Ellis should be a U18 coach at Rangers.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurie-ellis-a6882071

Edited December 11, 2022 by lbowman6
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Noticed that the Aberdeen Academy staff looked a bit threadbare :- https://www.afc.co.uk/teams/youth-academy-staff/

On 19/12/2022 at 18:57, shakey.bridge said:

Noticed that the Aberdeen Academy staff looked a bit threadbare :- https://www.afc.co.uk/teams/youth-academy-staff/

Around 95% of that page are staff that coach below u18 level which is the lowest youth level in the game. For instance, click on Stuart Duff and it says "Stuart oversees the U13, U14, U15 & U16 teams. He also coaches the U16s."

This cannot be added into the game as there are no U16 or below teams in the game.

If you can find any evidence that any of the staff on this page is currently working with the U18s and are not in the game, please give me a shout.

Rangers have a number of youth players now breaking into the first-team squad.  Young Adam Devine can play LC, CB, and RB.  He's now the 2nd choice RB behind Tavernier.  Although, he just played 3 consecutive SPFL league games at LB and was outstanding.  In fact, he was named in the SPFL's 'team of the week' yesterday. I would suggest he needs a buff:

Last night against Motherwell young Alex Lowry started in midfield as well.  Devine, King, and Lowry, are all first-team squad players now.

Putting Devine in the first team range for Rangers would mean he is on a par with established right backs like O'Donnell at Motherwell. Need to remember he's only played because Yilmaz and Barisic were unavailable. Really need to see him playing more regularly in his preferred position of right back and whilst he's done well in the games he has played I would be a bit cautious in making the jump straight to first team level at the moment.

Will keep an eye on him but he's probably unlikely to play right back unless there is an injury to Tavernier.

Hi All,

Craig Samson should have a player/gk coach profile as well as he is still registered as a player and has been on the bench for Aberdeen a few times this season.

 

Aberdeen FC | Team news from Darvel (afc.co.uk)

Know what makes the Scottish Premiership almost unbearable?

The abysmal "logic" of strip selection. Why in God's name is this still an utter goddamned mess? 

Hibs playing Hearts, at Easter Road, with Hearts in an away kit? WHY? For what reason? There is no strip clash to speak of there. And don't even get me started on Celtic-Rangers games, which are a travesty of away strips and weird choices and have been for years. 

If the games internal AI system can't get this right then GIVE US THE OPTION to change it in the damned editor. 

It's ludicrous, it really is.