Scottish Premiership Data [Discussion]

Some early thoughts on Celtic players, Celtic fan, trying my best to maintain balance. 

Abada - Over Inflated starting market value (albeit it looks like (based on fifteen minutes) anyone with good potential has a massive inflation to their value across the game). 

Kyogo - Seems a little lower than I thought, would balance out with Abada, no way Abada a £30m player and Kyogo doesn't hit £20m

Scales - Understated against reality, albeit I appreciate stats drawn from previous seasons

Yang - Get that S.Korean team will be behind analysis, seems a little low

Oh - Think overhit, a touch down and touch up for Yang would reflect my own personal take so far

Turnbull and Welsh - Nothing between them market value wise, think Turnbull (albeit reduction understandable) is a level above Welsh (understand value is only one factor, and Turnbull's contract running down will be a factor too)

Ronan Ferns and Finlay Hale - Prospects I thought might be above three star potential, certainly if comparing to Justin Osagie who is higher and gets less game time/mention as a real prospect.

I know I probably need to qualify the above and will do so when I get a chance if needed. 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by joe5p

The most striking thing is that Adam Le fondre is starting on £15,500 a week salary. This seems so wildly out of preportion with the rest of the hibs squad and its real life wage structure

I obviously am not aware of his actual contract but this seems so massivly wrong  for a player that isn't even a starter

Celtic salaries out with Mcgregor seem really low In general.

Not a chance are Kyogo, Maeda, O'Riley and Hatate all earning under 20k with their new contracts 

50 minutes ago, Sardinm said:

The most striking thing is that Adam Le fondre is starting on £15,500 a week salary. This seems so wildly out of preportion with the rest of the hibs squad and its real life wage structure

I obviously am not aware of his actual contract but this seems so massivly wrong  for a player that isn't even a starter

Looking at Le Fondre, he came in to the Hibs squad quite late and as part of that his contract is still set as 'Designated Player', which may or may not have caused the game to make up that he's on £15k.

Either way, it's not what we set 

Celtic salaries seem particularly low, especially the likes of Kyogo Furuhashi, Reo Hatate and Matt O'Riley having all just signed new deals and having established themselves as key players.

Rangers:

 

Steven Davis - has a 3 year contract at 10k a week, taking him to age 41... - Davis was released at the end of the 2023 season but remained with Rangers to rehab from his injury before a brief two game interim manager role but hes no longer a Rangers player? He most certainly hasn't been given a new three year contract.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, joe5p said:

Some early thoughts on Celtic players, Celtic fan, trying my best to maintain balance. 

Abada - Over Inflated starting market value (albeit it looks like (based on fifteen minutes) anyone with good potential has a massive inflation to their value across the game). 

Kyogo - Seems a little lower than I thought, would balance out with Abada, no way Abada a £30m player and Kyogo doesn't hit £20m

Scales - Understated against reality, albeit I appreciate stats drawn from previous seasons

Yang - Get that S.Korean team will be behind analysis, seems a little low

Oh - Think overhit, a touch down and touch up for Yang would reflect my own personal take so far

Turnbull and Welsh - Nothing between them market value wise, think Turnbull (albeit reduction understandable) is a level above Welsh

Ronan Ferns and Finlay Hale - Prospects I thought might be above three star potential, certainly if comparing to Justin Osagie who is higher and gets less game time/mention as a real prospect.

I know I probably need to qualify the above and will do so when I get a chance if needed. 

 

Some thoughts on Rangers

Rabbi Matondo - Really struggling to see the justification for a big hike in value, starting at between 13 and 19.5 million. Not sure there is much to draw on to justify this hike in comparison to some other players. 

Radvin Yilmaz - As above

Jack Butland - Could be higher value wise

 

1 hour ago, WeegieFM said:

Steven Davis - has a 3 year contract at 10k a week, taking him to age 41... - Davis was released at the end of the 2023 season but remained with Rangers to rehab from his injury before a brief two game interim manager role but hes no longer a Rangers player? He most certainly hasn't been given a new three year contract.

It hasn't been confirmed what Davis' contract status is and it's something that had been discussed prior to his appointment as interim manager. Michael Beale stated that Davis would be continuing his rehab and then conversations would be had. His squad number hasn't been taken by any of the new players which indicates he is probably still registered as a player.

- Originally had him on a £1 per week rolling contract
- Then had him as interim manager
- Now we've put him as a player / coach as he is assisting Philippe Clement currently for at least the next couple of weeks

abada has two sell on fees you have to buy out, so too does matt o'riley

Training and youth facilities are incorrect for Dundee FC. 

They moved into Gardyne Campus 13 June 2022.

Club operations move to Gardyne - Dundee Football Club - Official Website (dundeefc.co.uk)

This is a substantial upgrade to facilities and should be reflected in game.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Garageflower

1 hour ago, joe5p said:

Some thoughts on Rangers

Rabbi Matondo - Really struggling to see the justification for a big hike in value, starting at between 13 and 19.5 million. Not sure there is much to draw on to justify this hike in comparison to some other players. 

Radvin Yilmaz - As above

Jack Butland - Could be higher value wise

 

 

Player values are not set in the database, they're calculated by the game based on a number of factors.

3 minutes ago, Brentford Alan said:

 

Player values are not set in the database, they're calculated by the game based on a number of factors.

I appreciate that, but the factors they draw on must suggest Matondo is at the top end of SPL players, which he has not demonstrated yet. 

9 minutes ago, joe5p said:

I appreciate that, but the factors they draw on must suggest Matondo is at the top end of SPL players, which he has not demonstrated yet. 

Can confirm, he is not near the top end of SPL players. I'm confident there's a lot more factors than ability that goes into the value of the player to the club.

Edited October 19, 2023 by CaylumM

1 hour ago, Ter said:

It hasn't been confirmed what Davis' contract status is and it's something that had been discussed prior to his appointment as interim manager. Michael Beale stated that Davis would be continuing his rehab and then conversations would be had. His squad number hasn't been taken by any of the new players which indicates he is probably still registered as a player.

- Originally had him on a £1 per week rolling contract
- Then had him as interim manager
- Now we've put him as a player / coach as he is assisting Philippe Clement currently for at least the next couple of weeks

Shows as a player/coach on 10k a week. Even if he remains in some capacity, its not going to be on anywhere near 10k a week.

Taylor Steven (St Johnstone) should be on loan to Alloa, i dont see that in any database type i select.

He should join them on the 25th of August.

https://www.alloaathletic.co.uk/2023/08/25/taylor-steven-signs-on-loan/#:~:text=We're delighted to announce,appearances at Bayview last term.

Matondo has had a wildly inflated transfer value since fm 23, I just received a bid of £5m for him and the board will under no circumstances allow me to sell him!

Last year I remember Abada had this issue, 170 potential and a huge transfer value. I rate Abada highly but that is absolutely mental, I struggle to understand how anyone at SI made that decision.

Davis £10k per week contract until 2026 is wrong.

Adam Devine has had randomly generated stats since fm 23 and this means he pretty much always starts out with 14/15's in really important stats while other academy players like Bailey Rice start with 1-3 in really important stats such as strength.

A lot of the stats and the way players develop in Scotland don't make sense, it's as if they have been randomised.

 

I'm fairly sure Reo can play LB and LW, no?

Unless the Scottish weather has killed him. He played on the left-wing against Canada the other day.

 

 

Just to respond to a few things...

1) While the ALF issue is a genuine error because it hasn't been set, I don't think it's too helpful to go round in circles about suspecting a player's wage is too high or too low. We can review these things but try to keep the discussion to genuine errors (like if a wage was set as £200,000 p/w instead of £20,000, but not £23,000 instead of £20,000)

2) As has been pointed out, we don't set player values in the database, so this thread isn't the place for it. For Matondo, he's set as something like the 27th best player in Scotland and his reputation is equal to his value. If it's too high, that's more of a coding issue.

3) Taylor Steven's transfer has been missed. That's a fair cop. We didn't have a dedicated Alloa researcher beyond May, so it's slipped through the net. Apologies for that.

4) Bang on about the Gardyne Campus. We should have updated that and we will as soon as possible. I believe that the stadium is still Kilmac as well, but with the licensing that goes on with the SPFL it can be a longer lead time to make changes. I'm surprised it hadn't been picked up but I'll hold my hands up on that one.

5) Abada has never had 170 for Potential ability. I've gone back through the field history for Potential ability and the highest it got was 165, which is high, but that's *potential*. He's 22 and isn't in his prime yet. But if the Celtic researcher believed that, then I'm happy to back him. Having looked, it's a little less this year that it was last year but he's still highly rated.

6) Adam Devine does not have every attribute filled in, which is perfectly reasonable for a player who hasn't played a huge amount of game time at first team level. I'd say it takes a good 15-20 games to get a proper feel for a player, but looking at it, he's only played about 9 hours of football at first team level. With that in mind, the Rangers researcher is then able to use an option within our database that asks that the game randomly generate attributes for a player of a certain description. So in this case, Devine is described as a 'Complete Wing Back' and thus he'll have stats to match. As for "a lot of the stats and ways players develop in Scotland don't make sense", I would ask that you expand on how specifically development in Scotland doesn't make sense relative to other leagues in the game.

7) Hatate will be able to play in those positions if you play him there in the game, but he's not set as that as a primary. That being said, if he regularly does play there on international duty, it's something we can review.

 

What I would say is that how good a player is rated will always be  - within a certain margin for errror - subjective within the ratings guidelines FM uses. I back my team to rate players how they see it; that's the joy of the game. We have fierce debates within the research team on who should be rated at X and who should be rated at Y but i trust the team to rate it as they see it. You might disagree, and that's ok. But we should keep it respectful.

And hopefully, we can keep the thread to discussing errors rather than matters of opinion. I just hope there aren't too many errors to flag up :-)

Edited October 20, 2023 by Stuart Milne

4 hours ago, Stuart Milne said:

4) Bang on about the Gardyne Campus. We should have updated that and we will as soon as possible. I believe that the stadium is still Kilmac as well, but with the licensing that goes on with the SPFL it can be a longer lead time to make changes. I'm surprised it hadn't been picked up but I'll hold my hands up on that one.

Dundee recently announced a new stadium sponsor and it is now called "Scot Foam Stadium" at Dens Park.

Looking forward to the changes. Thanks

Just a couple Aberdeen things. Im pretty sure Fletcher Boyd is missing from the U18s because hes too young. Im not sure if Timothy Akindileni is the same? Gavin Levey has left as head of youth development and moved to Swansea. I attended a couple of the U18 games and Kevin Stewart appears to be the GK coach working with that group 

4 hours ago, markmeatsix91 said:

Just a couple Aberdeen things. Im pretty sure Fletcher Boyd is missing from the U18s because hes too young. Im not sure if Timothy Akindileni is the same? Gavin Levey has left as head of youth development and moved to Swansea. I attended a couple of the U18 games and Kevin Stewart appears to be the GK coach working with that group 

Fletcher Boyd and Akindileni are too young. Gavin Levey hasn’t officially been announced, which is why I haven’t pushed it through just yet.

The U18s GK Coach seems to change all the time, so thank you for pointing that out.

22 minutes ago, CaylumM said:

Fletcher Boyd and Akindileni are too young. Gavin Levey hasn’t officially been announced, which is why I haven’t pushed it through just yet.

The U18s GK Coach seems to change all the time, so thank you for pointing that out.

For Gavin Levey, Aberdeen announced his departure and quoted that he was moving to Swansea via Twitter. I understand you may need Swansea to confirm he is there, but he has already left Aberdeen. 

Another small Dundee issue I noticed.

On the game, Joe Shaughnessy's contract expires after one year in 2024. The official website announcement didn't make comment on the contract length but according to local press, he signed a two-year-deal. There was also lot of talk that he signed for Dundee over renewing at St Mirren due to the additional year offered at Dundee.

hi 

when you go to top goalscorer award from last season its the wrong Kevin van veen that's in second place.

Why is it that when when a Celtic youth leaves the club for a top academy they invariable get given a -8 straight after leaving (Josh Adams, Liam Morrison, Barry Hepburn and this summer Aidan Borland) yet when they reject a move to a top academy and decide to stay at the club (Rocco Vata, Josh Dede and this summer Mitchel Frame and Ronan Ferns)  they're given lower PA ranges? 

Ferns should at least be on a par with Borland and Jack Wyllie.  Likewise there's nothing to suggest Mitchel Frame shouldn't be on a par with Archie Stevens, looks comfortably our best prospect from that age group.  Also think it would make more sense to give MacKenzie Carse a downgrade and boost Rocco Vata's PA up to where Carse currently is.  

6 hours ago, celtic_fc said:

Why is it that when when a Celtic youth leaves the club for a top academy they invariable get given a -8 straight after leaving (Josh Adams, Liam Morrison, Barry Hepburn and this summer Aidan Borland) yet when they reject a move to a top academy and decide to stay at the club (Rocco Vata, Josh Dede and this summer Mitchel Frame and Ronan Ferns)  they're given lower PA ranges? 

Ferns should at least be on a par with Borland and Jack Wyllie.  Likewise there's nothing to suggest Mitchel Frame shouldn't be on a par with Archie Stevens, looks comfortably our best prospect from that age group.  Also think it would make more sense to give MacKenzie Carse a downgrade and boost Rocco Vata's PA up to where Carse currently is.  

The Celtic players are rated by the Celtic researcher who - like most of our assistants across the globe - is a fan of the club he researches.

So if he's giving a player a certain potential ability, it's because he's judged that player should have that. If a player moves club and the researcher who researches that club is in control of the player and decides to give him a higher potential ability, there's not a lot that the Celtic researcher can do about that.

As it happens, Vata has a -75 which is the same as Josh Adam and more than Liam Morrison (-7) and Barry Hepburn (-6), Aidan Borland was never in the database prior to being created by the Aston Villa researcher.

Hopefully this addresses your concerns. 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Stuart Milne