4231 Problems

Trying to play with a 4231, but nothing seems to be working the way I want it to.

I want to be able to defend from the front, and then quick in attack, dominating games in a high tempo.

I am aware that I have two attacking wing backs, I want this, I want wing backs to be attacking. I want to impose my self on to teams and outscore them.

I have selected defensive so that my team are still structured in how they are positioned when they haven't the ball, so that the attacking players put some effort into defensive work. I have put in 'attacking' shouts to try and strike a balance, but it doesn't seem to be working.

ok, you haven't said what is happening, or what is going wrong though.

Lately I'm noticing things are working quite well, I get to a 2-0 lead, but whatever I have done/do I concede. Not through any actual tactical failing, just through set-pieces mainly. I've set up corner defensive instructions, but it seems that the AI needs to even things up, so whilst it can't break my team down in a footballing sense it has to restart to scoring from set-pieces.

So what I'd be basically looking for is a set-up of approach to go even more attacking when I score. If teams I'm playing against that are now losing are throwing men forward and themselves being more attacking, it should stand to reason that they could be vulnerable.

It seems that whatever shouts I am using to introduce defensive measures don't work, so how can I go about making a 2-0 scoreline into a 3,4,5-0?

The AI doesn't just try and even things up. It's a myth. If you want tactical help, then this kind of discussion is pointless. Perhaps you are being too cautious when you have a lead, so therefore, as you surmised just now, you could do with being more positive. Aiming to exploit the spaces the opposition leaves on the break could be particularly helpful.

What is your defensive set piece set up?

The AI doesn't just try and even things up. It's a myth. If you want tactical help, then this kind of discussion is pointless. Perhaps you are being too cautious when you have a lead, so therefore, as you surmised just now, you could do with being more positive. Aiming to exploit the spaces the opposition leaves on the break could be particularly helpful.

What is your defensive set piece set up?

Defending Corners

Near post, Far post

4 x Zonal 6 Yard Box

3 x Man

1 x Edge

1 x Up

Defending Corners

Far post, Near Post

5 x Man Mark

3 x Wall

Two games in a row now I've had to surrender leads. 2-0 up at half time to Arsenal, end up drawing 2-2. 1-0, and then 2-1 against Crystal Palace, draw 2-2. Fed up of it, how can a functional tactic so quickly go from working to abject uselessness so quickly. If anything the way I'm set up to pass the ball quickly should be even more effective when opponents open up space.

Two games in a row now I've had to surrender leads. 2-0 up at half time to Arsenal, end up drawing 2-2. 1-0, and then 2-1 against Crystal Palace, draw 2-2. Fed up of it, how can a functional tactic so quickly go from working to abject uselessness so quickly. If anything the way I'm set up to pass the ball quickly should be even more effective when opponents open up space.

Not if you are under pressure and give the ball away cheaply right after you win it. That will just multiply the pressure. Especially with the large gaps you leave opponents behind your midfielders, in front of your defence. They will have a field day.

Not if you are under pressure and give the ball away cheaply right after you win it. That will just multiply the pressure.

But if I slow down the tempo I'm just passing it slowly and it's easier for the opponents to close me down?

But if I slow down the tempo I'm just passing it slowly and it's easier for the opponents to close me down?

Tempo refers to how quickly the ball is moved forwards, not how quickly the ball is moved. Players will still shift it fast (assuming they have the attributes to do so compared to the players closing them down, of course) if they will lose possession otherwise. They'll only hold the ball longer if given time and space to do so.

Indeed, you can have a very slow tempo and play a quick, neat passing game - it's just that the ball moves from back to front slowly, IE there are more sideways and backwards passes.

Also, zonal marking on set pieces is suicide against teams who are good at set pieces - just ask Arsenal fans. Go fully man marking. Set your best defensive players (in the air) to mark tall players, tell everyone else in the box to pick up a man, stick your two shortest players (probably fullbacks) on the posts, and the rest outside the box for potential counter-attacks. I've been doing exactly that for years in FM and rarely ever concede on corners. I don't bother to change anything at all for defending freekicks as... well, most of them are just inane shots anyway and I work hard to make my teams NOT give away freekicks in the first place.

Defending Corners

Near post, Far post

4 x Zonal 6 Yard Box

3 x Man

1 x Edge

1 x Up

Defending Corners

Far post, Near Post

5 x Man Mark

3 x Wall

Don't bother with men on the posts. Use 1 of them to close down corner and use the rest as per your instructions.

Use a 5 men wall and 4 men markers for defending freekicks. After the latest patch, there seems to be a situation(bug???) where if your gk parries a direct freekick, it's almost certain that the opposition will get to the ball 1st and tucking it into a empty net. Using a 5 men wall will lower his chance of hitting his shot on target. I usually only use a 4 men wall but need to change now.

Zonal is not suicidal. In fact since switching to zonal set pieces, we conceded far less goals than when we man marked.

Zonal is not suicidal. In fact since switching to zonal set pieces, we conceded far less goals than when we man marked.

I suppose it depends on the attributes of your players and those of the opposing team. I personally always go man-to-man, but, on the other hand, I always go for defenders who are more agile and positionally aware versus big and great in the air.

Tempo refers to how quickly the ball is moved forwards, not how quickly the ball is moved.

Tempo is how quickly the ball is moved or the rhythm of your passing. A direct passing style is what encourages getting the ball forward into attack and a short passing style encourages sideways and backwards passing. Mentality also has an effect on this. However as you increase tempo, players will become more hurried in possession which could lead to more rushed attacks.

I think tempo it's not how quick the ball moves forward, it's how quick the ball moves between players. Move the ball forward is more about passing and mentality

I have selected defensive so that my team are still structured in how they are positioned when they haven't the ball, so that the attacking players put some effort into defensive work. I have put in 'attacking' shouts to try and strike a balance, but it doesn't seem to be working.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's very difficult to have it both ways. Trying to maintain a structured, disciplined defensive shape and then telling your players to close down more is contradictory and really difficult to pull off. I'm pretty sure you'd see better results if you fully committed to one approach over the other: either play defensively with a deep defensive line and rely on the team shape to frustrate your opponents or play a more attacking game based on pressing to get the ball back.

Since you want to play attacking football, why not try switching to Control? With the TIs you've selected it's like you're trying to turn the Defensive mentality into Control anyway, so you could turn most of those TIs of as well (all except 'Work ball...' and 'Play out...' since the others will be handled by the Control mentality itself). It sounds a bit like you're worried it'll be too open at the back but remember: defending isn't always about having a rigid team shape - pressing is a viable option too. And you're almost guaranteed to score more goals, which is what you're looking to do.

One other thing, if you want Mane to be an IF(A) , it would work better if your forward was on a support duty, so that he can drag defenders up the field and open up space behind for Mane to run into. Bear in mind that you might have to change Schneiderlin to an AP(A) to compensate for this but it might be worth playing around with to see what sort of results you get.

The AI doesn't just try and even things up. It's a myth.

Are you genuinely serious?

The AI can be extremely good at trolling. Not just the match engine, but other aspects of the game too, including your top-class Assman luring you into making the worst decision possible.

here we go... can you then explain this own goal by #27?

closest opp player was 5m away and he could easily clear it to the sides for a corner... please...

match stats right after the goal...

let me guess... now I give Taylor the shout "stop being a ****** **** and get your **** together"

thank you for the FM lesson

Post like #16 deleted. I am as critical as anyone about some aspects of the ME which really need improved, including the reactions to keeper saving freekicks, but saying "explain this" is just nonsense.

Explain Santiago Vergini's own goal earlier in the season. Explain Asmir Begovic scoring from a kick out last year. Explain Iker Casillas throwing so many in the net 2 years after being the best keeper in the world. These things happen in football, and they are frustrating as hell. But they happen in real football.

To the OP - As for the problem with 4231 when leading, i shall wheel out my broken record.....

Its way to attacking. 3 players in the AM strata as a starting position is not realistic for 90mins. Possibly for short bursts. Try this. If its working for you to get ahead in games, start with your tactic. When ahead, pull your wide players back a slot, or pull your AM back a slot, or both. Create a more realistic tactic. See if it makes you more solid. If not, call me a fool

delete the post if you want, * because I have no idea what I am talking about*

I'm ok with the game being realistic, but there must be also an element of leniency and enjoyment. Enjoyment is removed when the AI just trolls you with a ridiculous own goal when the team seems to be doing well and morale seems to be ok.

If we go "realism 100%" then all of us should start as U19 assman in random "lower league relegation fodder" team.

btw... 2nd game in a row I score an own goal very realistic, thank you

Regarding the 4231... you may want to try a "433" with a CM on attack duty, instead of lowering both wingers as Jambo suggests.

PS: another gift for those of you that think the AI is the holy grail of football realism

fyi I have played the same game 3 times... 3 different team talks, 3 different formations, I conceded each replay on min. 2' 10' and 2' again... wow... interesting huh? Wanna know how?

2' * after 3 bounces

10' * corner

2' * penalty

ah... the penalty...

the thought that the game could be scripted is making me wanna puke. I would really love to be proved wrong.

the thought that the game could be scripted is making me wanna puke. I would really love to be proved wrong.

It isn't scripted. If the word of SI programmers, creators, researchers, mods, players who have been at this for over a decade (or even two) isn't enough, you'll never have proof. Conspiracy theories are beautiful like that. Basically all your post above says is that a ref made a bad decision and you scored an own goal. I haven't seen you running in here and ranting when it happens in your favor (and it does, whether you admit it or not). Funny how that works.

Now, stop posting garbage. If you want assistance fine, but this will not be a place for you to rant about the game being scripted.

PS: another gift for those of you that think the AI is the holy grail of football realism

FM is a massively complex computer game, and as with any massively complex computer game, you will occasionally see bugs. However, the human manager has the same probability of benefiting from them as the AI (though when they do, people tend not to notice or care). Bugs can be frustrating, but that is why you should report them if you see them instead of assuming they're supposed to be there.

brussels is 100% correct - in real life we never see silly own goals, balls bouncing off keepers into their own net, defenders making ridiculous "clearances" which actually score that any striker would be proud of - and we certainly never ever ever see own goals two matches running.

And all of that never happens in our favour either, it's always against us, so the AI is totally, 100%, stone cold, there-can-be-no-doubt-about-it, scripted.

Ok, I know my sarcasm here doesn't really help, but c'mon the AI never has the advantage - we, as human managers always have an advantage, it's just up to us to figure out how to grasp it. And even if we do then hey, **** happens and we get occasional silly own goals or other odd things, but as all managers always say, these things tend to even themselves out over the course of the season.

And now I am going to start a new conspiracy theory - FM15 is not scripted against us. Whisper it quietly and pass it on.

I really wish people would stop using the term "scripted". It doesn't even mean what they think it means. :/

First to the OP, I think the main issue is the ratain possession/higher tempo - when it works, it's gorgeous, but it also requires massive amounts of concentration and technique. This breed of 433, particularly in the premiership with it's charming weather and teams that like to also close down, is so hard to sustain trying to play possession based football.

As for the AI "trolling", I genuinely don't think it's true, although overobsessing with tactics sometimes makes players ignore other factors, particularly morale. I generally micromanage my squad and find that in this version, the man-management aspect of the game is taking a huge step in the right direction. Contrary to what it might seem to be, FM is still a computer game, and rubs of the green, (un)lucky bounces, or just play bad luck are sometimes manifested in comical ways. Things like morale or a team's (manager's?) ability to react to just play rotten luck is part and parcel of the game, just as much as closing down or defensive line. I understand some of the top tacticians on this board choose to ignore morale or leave such trivial things as team talks to their AssMan, but I'm just saying it can make a huge difference.

Ask an Arsenal fan if the goods of physiotherapy are conspiring against their team. If real life Arsenal were in FM, people would constantly file bug reports about their injury lists and comical defending. Who knows, perhaps one day SI will be able to replicate the sheerr despodency of Eduardo's horror injury in 2008, which not only altered the player's career, but deflated the entire team and their season. Until that tackle, Arsenal were happily skipping along, Eduardo was starting to score goals, and it was the last time they had the swagger of title challengers. The looks on Gallas or Fabregasc's faces alone were enough to see just how gutted the team was. From then on, Arsenal started to Arsenal, and the goals they would concede or chances they would blow really looked like their games needed "a patch".

To end my long rant, I believe there are elements of "fortune" which are sometimes manifested in really silly ways, simply because it is, after all, a game. However, just as in real life, these things happen, and dealing with morale or managing your own reactions to them is also part and parcel of managing the team.

As in real life, set pieces are a very common source of those frustrating (and sometimes delightful) situations. How many times do you watch a match and a team is simply getting battered but hanging on, and they get a corner near the end of the match, and you simply know what will happen next?

One final bit of advice is, when this kind of thing happens, it sometimes takes a very brave manager to stick to the gameplan. When conceding, it's often too tempting to change tactics or shouts. So many times I would concede from a silly free kick after controlling a game, and my first instinct would be to go all out attack or press like mad, when instead there is a tranquility and confidence in sticking to the game plan, and accepting that a team like Southampton will sometimes concede silly goals, go on disheartening four game losing streaks, and this is all a game and there's more to tactics than just tactics...

Ah well... I had a reply almost finished and when hitting backspace the browser went back to the previous page.

Scripted means the AI follows a pre-set script. I was frustrated as hell, and replaying the same game 3x and seeing the same stuff happen over and over was frustrating as hell, especially when your pride is hurt after sitting bottom of the table. I never replay matches (only when I started in FM11).

If some of you like funny football vids with slips, ridiculous own goals, and other stuff, I invite you to watch some Youtube compilations with "trololo" background music. Maybe you would like to request the devs team the addition of offensive chants, insults from the stands when you play away (home too, as well, why not?), or a lighter being thrown at your head like Schalke's ass man. That's realistic too.

I'm ok with mistakes and stuff, but the AI trolling you when you are already sitting bottom of the table was annoying as hell. Binning a save that took me 4 weeks to progress 1,5 seasons was really unpleasant, and hurt my pride badly.

overobsessing with tactics sometimes makes players ignore other factors, particularly morale.

I believe you could be hitting the nail here. I think I could have some sort of player "mutiny" in my previous save. Morale was not that low and squad happiness bar was full, but you never know.

And nevertheless I wanted to apologize to the OP for hijacking his thread with my venting.

Back to OP, I didn't try any of the 4231 variants so far, but used the 4411 (you could call it a 4231 variation) for a couple of games and it worked reasonably well. I liked it more than the 442 tbh. But eventually moved on my favored system 433 (1 winger, 1 inside forward and 1 striker up top).

With the 442 and 4141 I eventually have some problems in the space between the defenders and midfielders. I seem to control the game much better with 1 DMC. Not only in defense but also the 2 CMs in front of him have more space to roam and also are covered in defense by the DMC. The first couple of games I played in the beginning with a 4231DM, and with 1 MC and 1 DMC (R/L) I couldn't make it work. The DM sits in front of the defender, and he's too deep to contribute in attack, and in defense he's too much to one side to defend the opposite side when needed to cover.

That's not really what "scripted" means in a gaming fashion, but all right. It's nonsense regardless.

It would take far, far, far more effort to "script" the game in that fashion from a programming perspective while simultaneously giving the impression that the game is a complex simulation.

It can't be "scripted" and a simulation, you see. They're mutually exclusive things. You can either have a set outcome or you can have one determined by many, many, many different variables. If the AI was set up to just go "LOL THIS'LL BE ANNOYING I'LL DO THIS", then frankly SI should get a freaking award for genius - because somehow they've managed to craft a game that looks convincingly like a simulation to the extent that those who understand how the simulation works can produce consistent outcomes AND simultaneously manage to get the AI to "troll" people.

I've literally never experienced a situation where I can't go "yeah, I can see how that happened", aside from obvious moments of randomness like the ball hitting the crossbar and bouncing into the net off of my goalie's butt. Those streaks of sudden draws and losses? I always know when they're coming, because I have experience with how the simulation works and can see the telltale signs - the little bits of erratic form from certain squad members, the complacency body language becoming more common, the increase in errors from players more prone to suffering from pressure, the nervous body language, my striker's goal rate falling off... there are always hints and clues that a tough patch is coming.

Not least the fixture list. Half the time someone complains about this sort of thing you take one look at their fixture list and realise they had 6 games, 4 of them against tough opposition, half of them away from home, and 3 of them in one week.

Very surprising drop in form there!

The FIFA community come out with the nonsensical claims about "scripting", too, and it's even more hilarious there. I always go read those threads if I'm feeling a bit down, cheers me right up.

I'm ok with mistakes and stuff, but the AI trolling you when you are already sitting bottom of the table was annoying as hell. Binning a save that took me 4 weeks to progress 1,5 seasons was really unpleasant, and hurt my pride badly.

First off, owning up to feeling frustrated and venting is good on you. Believe me, we've all been there, and occasionally threads get derailed, and people get derailed by it. Now in keeping with the gist of the thread, why did you bin your save over that match? You have to realize that if you replay a match several times in a row, you are going to get similar results unless you make some significant changes to line-up, tactics etc., and even then, you are still subject to the weather, the other team's form and tactical decisions, errors, bad referee calls, etc. The AI isn't "trolling" you but I can appreciate it felt that way in the moment.

FM is not the holy grail of football realism, but it gets most things right most of the time. There are times it behaves oddly and stupid things happen. They happen to the AI too, though. I've scored my own share of goals from egregious AI errors. It cuts both ways and it all evens out in the end. In the Anderlecht match you posted about, the goals may well have been soft, but the bigger question you might want to ask is what were they doing in your area 2 minutes in? If you give the opponent opportunities, they will score, whether it's a clean strike, a deflection, a corner, a penalty, whatever.

@Dr. Hook

thanks for understanding

I had to bin it not because of the match. I got fired, and I usually don't change clubs. I play a save with the same team as long as possible. Usually play for 10-15 seasons, and I play slowly (full or comprehensive). I could have been offered a job with any other English club, but that's not my goal.

The game is pretty complex indeed, and I love it, despite the moments of frustration. In fact it took me less than 48hrs to start a new NUFC save. Finishing my first season now.

@Auqakuh

yeah I noticed all those signs, but... what can you do when none of your 4 strikers (3*/4*) are able to hit a barn door with a banjo? We were creating chances and stuff, but if the strikers refuse to put the round thingy into the back of the net I can't do more. When all the absurd mistakes start to pile up... it gets too frustrating. On top of that you can't really count on your staff because many times their advice is not very useful...

And FIFA multiplayer imho is the hugest scam I've ever seen. I stopped playing it because I refuse to be fooled.

I have played football sims since I had a NES 20+ yrs ago, btw...

Just for fun, check out the highlight of the Nantes match last night, and the goal that was scored by Bordeaux (i think it was Bordeaux), where the ball rebounds off the keeper's (Jug i think his name is) head. It really does happen in real life too - complete idiocy and barminess.

EDIT: here is the link:

Just for fun, check out the highlight of the Nantes match last night, and the goal that was scored by Bordeaux (i think it was Bordeaux), where the ball rebounds off the keeper's (Jug i think his name is) head. It really does happen in real life too - complete idiocy and barminess.

EDIT: here is the link:

http://i.imgur.com/qFZZCYZ.jpg[/img]"]