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Thread: It's time for a leap of faith

  1. #1
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    Default It's time for a leap of faith

    The turn of a decade is usually followed by dreams and new hopes and we, FM players, are all dreaming and expecting wonderful things. I think there is a real chance for our favourite game.

    I always believed that this game takes tactics too seriously. In essence, this game is only tactics' tweaking. Nothing much else. It still amazes me that there are, for example, 20 different settings on how much should a player close down. Or, 20 different levels of time wasting?! Fair enough, they have tried to simplify but just for the player. The machine remains as big and complicated.

    I've read numerous angry posts defending realism when someone dares to ask if he could repeat a game, I've read experts coming up with important conclusions after reading two libraries of statistical jiberish, but we have all failed to observe the most important thing: There is too much concentration in tactics. Unrealisticaly much. Real life football management is a bit about tactics and a lot about other things. If the game continues to chanel its energy to tactics it will become less and less realistic and at the end it will have no connection to reality but the players' names and attributes.

    What is football management about? What distinguishes a succesful manager? This is what SI must concentrate upon now, take a leap of faith, take our game to the next level and trully create something legendary.

    A lot of work needs to be done on personal relationships between all the people working for a team (the manager, staff, players). Revolutionary ways have to be discovered to simulate those relationships and how they define a team.

    A lot of work and real out of the box thinking needs to be done so that the game can capture the personality and managerial skills of the manager and how they form the culture of the team.

    I know this post will shock many people, who will deliberately shut their eyes and try not to think of those things ever again. Most of the people who know and love football will know immediately what I am talking about (tactics is a very small part of management). I am counting on the really forward thinkers of SI. On those who want to take a chance and dare create a "simulation" rather than a "game".

    Please, SI, will you attempt to start a revolution?

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I agree that work needs to be done on more than just tactics. There is a whole media side of FM that could do with work, but I don't agree with you that football management is a bit about tactics and a lot about other things.

    I'd be pretty sure that the day to day routine of a football manager is working on tactics, be that in his office watching past teams play, with his players watching old matches, training with his players or devising a tactical approach to the next game.

    Yes, SI need to flesh out other aspects of their game, but not in exchange for the tactical side of things. I think you are wrong and I think it would be a bad thing for SI to start a revolution to steer the game away from tactics and tactical approaches.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    You're talking about " personal relationships between all the people working for a team (the manager, staff, players)". What do you mean with it exactly?

    I think I DO know what you're talking about though. And I don't see it happening in a decent way without real AI.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Not a bad idea and a good post.
    The tactics are in my opinon a little too detailed and by comparison the interaction options are Stone Age, especially the Press Conferences as there are only about 7 oft repeated questions / statements and variations on the same themes.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    About the press conferences. I don't see how you can NOT have repeated questions.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Do the changes to the tactical side introduced in FM10 not constitute a bit of a revolution?

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by anagain View Post
    I agree that work needs to be done on more than just tactics. There is a whole media side of FM that could do with work, but I don't agree with you that football management is a bit about tactics and a lot about other things.

    I'd be pretty sure that the day to day routine of a football manager is working on tactics, be that in his office watching past teams play, with his players watching old matches, training with his players or devising a tactical approach to the next game.

    Yes, SI need to flesh out other aspects of their game, but not in exchange for the tactical side of things. I think you are wrong and I think it would be a bad thing for SI to start a revolution to steer the game away from tactics and tactical approaches.
    Watching old games alone and taking notes or with the players and pointing out things is something they definately do. Also, I agree, they do spend time with the players during training and they do make plans about the next opponent. The game only simulates a couple of things from the above. Furthermore there are things like the 20 different positions of the creative freedom slider, for example, that simply do not make sense. And despite having all those buttons and sliders you cannot give simple instructions to your players or train them to execute certain routines, certain ways of defending and attacking.

    The point though is that the whole tactics system takes up an enormous amount of time during the game, withou baring resemblance to reality. It is not like that in real life. I mean you do not click a player from closing down 18 to closing down 17 and evaluate what happens.

    But more importantly, there are is no management in Football Management. I mean real situation management (I'm not sure how many of you have managed any outfit to understand what I am talking about, it is hard to explain and even harder to simulate, thus the "leap of faith")

    Quote Originally Posted by DivineOne View Post
    You're talking about " personal relationships between all the people working for a team (the manager, staff, players)". What do you mean with it exactly?

    I think I DO know what you're talking about though. And I don't see it happening in a decent way without real AI.
    Real AI. That's the word!

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by cf View Post
    Do the changes to the tactical side introduced in FM10 not constitute a bit of a revolution?
    They are a good step towards making the old heavy slider system look a bit more like football. If this gets even more real and is complimented by a lot of work on management, then we're talking...

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Far more in-depth analysis from scouts/assistant manager. Not just "Chelsea haven't scored many goals in between 76th-90th minute.."

    etc..

    more like "Chelsea have used a 4-5-1 system more regularly with Joe Cole playing as the most advanced midfielder, he likes to find pockets of space"

    "the holding midfielder usually looks to get on the ball as much as possible, while the other midfielder looks to break from midfield to support forwards"

    "The striker likes to drop deep to recieve the ball OR..the striker likes to run the channels"

    "both their wingers enjoy staying right out wide and keeping their width.."

    "this team usually play a high line"

    Things like this, this is information managers will recieve before everygame, along with player monitors fitness levels, distance covered...or things like "Assistant manager informs you, Player A's work rate drops considerably as a game goes on.."

    then it's upto you what you do with that information.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    That is indeed some good input and has to do with the poorly working scouting system. We all know that SI has introduced many things to make the game feel more real but they've done it half heartedly, without putting effort. Do you know why? Because there is a thing called tactics tweaking that takes up the majority of their time. This is the leap of faith I am talking about. Simplify tactics, work a lot less on sliders and understand real life football management more.

    The issue begins because the starting point is wrong: There is a widespread belief that how a team performs can only be explained by its tactics (hence the "it's your tactics" moto we constantly hear). This belief is very, very wrong and it leads to complete distortion of football.

    The reason that there is so much focus on tactics is simple: It is extremely difficult to realise, let alone simulate in a computer program, what are those things that define good or bad management. The solution was to forget about that and just explain everything through the tactics prism.

    I repeat: Tactics cannot explain why a team is succesful and why not. Tactics is a tiny thing of a team's performance. I am sure seasoned football fans know that. Unfortunately, this game is attempting to simulate football based almost exclusively on tactics. The whole concept is wrong. I will give one example: some engine developer in some other thread I was reading was saying that ManU, Arsenal and Chelsea have completely different ways of unlocking stubborn defences (or something like that). He then explained those differences by using tactical terms. This explanation is partly true. Of course, the three teams use different tactics. Those tactics are set by the manager and are worked in training etc. Those tactics have nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with the level of detail of sliding sliders we find in FM. In any case after the tactic is set, the real management begins. And, like I said, it has to do with personalities. ManU's way reflects its manager's character, Arsenal's the same. I can't believe for example, that Ferguson is still getting the best out of Giggs by tweaking his creative freedom one notch to the right. Yes Giggs play differently now that he is older, but his will to carry on, his motivation and endless hunger for the game has to do with his relationship with his manager and the club and this is something the game cannot at this point simulate. There are millions of examples of succeses or failures that have nothing to do with tactics, in the real world.

    To take this leap of faith, SI needs a cultural change. They need to forget the "it's all about tactics" moto and try to replicate real life football management. It is difficult, I know (wwfan has to be fired hahaha), but they can do it. We need this new and brilliant game.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    Watching old games alone and taking notes or with the players and pointing out things is something they definately do. Also, I agree, they do spend time with the players during training and they do make plans about the next opponent. The game only simulates a couple of things from the above. Furthermore there are things like the 20 different positions of the creative freedom slider, for example, that simply do not make sense. And despite having all those buttons and sliders you cannot give simple instructions to your players or train them to execute certain routines, certain ways of defending and attacking.

    The point though is that the whole tactics system takes up an enormous amount of time during the game, withou baring resemblance to reality. It is not like that in real life. I mean you do not click a player from closing down 18 to closing down 17 and evaluate what happens.

    But more importantly, there are is no management in Football Management. I mean real situation management (I'm not sure how many of you have managed any outfit to understand what I am talking about, it is hard to explain and even harder to simulate, thus the "leap of faith")

    I always said this when people were complaining about the sliders before the tactical redo. You have to have sliders of some sort. It is merely a graphical representation of telling your players how you want them to play. In any case you don't really need to fiddle with them all that much any more. Using the new tactics wizard devises a solid tactic to start with and then you can tweak as much as you need. I think that I always know what I'm asking the team to do and it never takes me an age.

    As for player management, well it's there. I signed a Lithuanian player in my first season and he began to play badly and it seemed to come down to him being homesick. I had a choice then, send him home for a while or get in another Lithuanian to help him settle. I got in another Lithuanian and the guy is on fire now.

    I also have the players that are on the verge of the team, or not able to force their way in. I have a choice of keeping them happy or sticking them in the reserves. Sooner or later they come to me and ask questions. I admit that interaction is limited but it is there.

    The new backroom meetings are great and has opened up a whole new world of interacting with players and staff. Never before have I used so many of the train in a certain move options.

    You can also extensively manage the youth coming through your team if you so wish.

    As I said, I agree that the player management side of FM could do with a lift but the tactical side needs to remain in charge from where I am sitting. Football is a tactical game after all.

    What else could you really do to change the tactical approach that SI have devised too? There has been a major tactical redesign for FM10 because people began to complain constantly about the sliders. The sliders are still in because they need to be there. They are now hidden by an excellent tactics wizard.

    If you think that things need to change, then give SI some ideas. Just coming along and saying that the management approach of the game needs to be worked on and that SI need to take a leap of faith is a little weak. At least think of something.

    Personally I'd say we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think you are wrong. Obviously improvements to the man-management side of FM would be welcomed but not at the expense of FMs tactical depth, and certainly not in conjunction with a lessening of the depth of the game tactically. More not less. All around.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Does this come down to a difficulty issue? Is the whole reasoning for this thread because the tactics are too difficult to understand? I don't agree.

    That's what the tactics wizard is for, surely.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by anagain View Post
    I always said this when people were complaining about the sliders before the tactical redo. You have to have sliders of some sort. It is merely a graphical representation of telling your players how you want them to play. In any case you don't really need to fiddle with them all that much any more. Using the new tactics wizard devises a solid tactic to start with and then you can tweak as much as you need. I think that I always know what I'm asking the team to do and it never takes me an age.

    As for player management, well it's there. I signed a Lithuanian player in my first season and he began to play badly and it seemed to come down to him being homesick. I had a choice then, send him home for a while or get in another Lithuanian to help him settle. I got in another Lithuanian and the guy is on fire now.

    I also have the players that are on the verge of the team, or not able to force their way in. I have a choice of keeping them happy or sticking them in the reserves. Sooner or later they come to me and ask questions. I admit that interaction is limited but it is there.

    The new backroom meetings are great and has opened up a whole new world of interacting with players and staff. Never before have I used so many of the train in a certain move options.

    You can also extensively manage the youth coming through your team if you so wish.

    As I said, I agree that the player management side of FM could do with a lift but the tactical side needs to remain in charge from where I am sitting. Football is a tactical game after all.

    What else could you really do to change the tactical approach that SI have devised too? There has been a major tactical redesign for FM10 because people began to complain constantly about the sliders. The sliders are still in because they need to be there. They are now hidden by an excellent tactics wizard.

    If you think that things need to change, then give SI some ideas. Just coming along and saying that the management approach of the game needs to be worked on and that SI need to take a leap of faith is a little weak. At least think of something.

    Personally I'd say we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think you are wrong. Obviously improvements to the man-management side of FM would be welcomed but not at the expense of FMs tactical depth, and certainly not in conjunction with a lessening of the depth of the game tactically. More not less. All around.
    I think that's fair enough...

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    In my honest opion SI need to start releasing FM every two years now. The game has so much more to it than it used to, so updating it yearly seems to be too much for them. FM09 was pretty much unplayable for me, I gave up on it. FM10 is fantastic but was released with some big issues ( some players couldnt even get it to work ) mainly with regens and now the patched 'super keepers'.

    S.I could just release updates for the transfer windows to update the squads and release a bug free game every 2 years......I would quite happily pay a small fee for such updates if it meant getting a game that doesnt require patching every 3 months to fix huge issues with it, causing players to pretty much lose months of play in saves because you need to re-do tactics to make them work with a new patch.....
    Last edited by Seabeast; 02-01-2010 at 02:25.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabeast View Post
    In my honest opion SI need to start releasing FM every two years now. The game has so much more to it than it used to, so updating it yearly seems to be too much for them. FM09 was pretty much unplayable for me, I gave up on it. FM10 is fantastic but was released with some big issues ( some players couldnt even get it to work ) mainly with regens and now the patched 'super keepers'.

    S.I could just release updates for the transfer windows to update the squads and release a bug free game every 2 years......I would quite happily pay a small fee for such updates if it meant getting a game that doesnt require patching every 3 months to fix huge issues with it, causing players to pretty much lose months of play in saves because you need to re-do tactics to make them work with a new patch.....
    I think there is definitely some argument for the every 2 years idea, but the idea of 'superkeepers' pops up every year. People have to look beyond the obvious inclination to call the bug 'superkeepers' and try and understand the bug better.

    Besides, releasing a game every two years instead of every one would not remove the occurance of bugs. More time would just be spent making a bigger game and the same amount of time, proportionally testing.

    I suspect the main opposition to releasing every two years would be the money providers.

    The more I think about it the more inclined I am to accept a release every year that is an improvement over the previous year's. Whatever you say, you can not argue that the game has not improved.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by anagain View Post
    I think there is definitely some argument for the every 2 years idea, but the idea of 'superkeepers' pops up every year. People have to look beyond the obvious inclination to call the bug 'superkeepers' and try and understand the bug better.

    Besides, releasing a game every two years instead of every one would not remove the occurance of bugs. More time would just be spent making a bigger game and the same amount of time, proportionally testing.

    I suspect the main opposition to releasing every two years would be the money providers.

    The more I think about it the more inclined I am to accept a release every year that is an improvement over the previous year's. Whatever you say, you can not argue that the game has not improved.
    Well said.

    I think a game every two years would allow them to release a game with less of the ' super ' bugs or issues that can cause the game to be a real pain. The little bugs are always going to appear, but these can be fixed quite easily with minor updates.

    Like you said though, its probably a money issue and a year on this kind of game is probably just about enough time. I tend to play a lot of games and no other game that I play gets released or patched with such god awful bugs/issues. I love FM, I have played them for a good 13+ years now, but as they have improved, they have had more and more of these issues.

    No denying that this is the best management game on the market, and very close to being a fantastic game, but im getting tired of the 'bugs' which get patched 3 months later only forcing us to start new games and work out new tactics. FM asks you to invest a lot of time to get the best out of it, so its frustrating for that to be wiped out 3 months later.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    The little bugs are always going to appear, but these can be fixed quite easily with minor updates.
    There's no such thing as a little bug, nor an easy fix. Think of each fix as a stone being dropped into a perfectly still lake. See all the ripples that stone makes? thats the kind of effect 1 minor change in the game code has. Hence one change to fix something creating problems in another area.

    The 2 year argument has been mentioned many times, and tbh, its not a solution. apart from the money issues, you will STILL end up with a shed load of bugs that need fixing simply because of the huge amounts of different hardware setups people have. One stat was quoted a few days ago on here saying there were in the region of 1500 different graphics card setups. Combine that with all the different OS and Ram and other set-ups, and you see my point.

    and yes, "super keepers" appear every year, but, cliche or not, it IS down to your tactics. SI have admitted that a certain type of chance gets created too often on the latest patch, which will be worked on for 10.3.


    Agree completely with anagain and the perfect fm'er's posts, and would also add that training is due a massive overhaul. Seems like eons since any work was done there.

    Media is way too repetetive for my liking, and the novelty of the press conferences (didnt buy 09) quickly wears off.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Actually, there is such a thing, and if you look at pretty much any other games out there, you will see little updates are released quite a lot to fix them. Most games arent released with as many bugs as FM though, nor do they release updates which remove some and add more.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabeast View Post
    Actually, there is such a thing, and if you look at pretty much any other games out there, you will see little updates are released quite a lot to fix them. Most games arent released with as many bugs as FM though, nor do they release updates which remove some and add more.
    Really? and how much of experience of coding do you have, then? Shall we take the cricket coach game mentioned in this thread as an example??

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Been reading this thread with a bit of interest and feel I have to post now. If you listen to the lastest FM podcast Miles Jacobsen mentions that there are Millions of lines of code in the ME alone. If they cange one bit of code say in the third line of code this could cause a problem in say the 1200th line. A lot of games are now patched due to the fact that the developers especially of console games have to get a game out on a set schedule set by the Publisher. Mind you I'm a big Fallout 3 fan and that was bugged as hell in all versions.

    Anyway I have to say the one area of the game that I'd like to see updated is as rinso says the training. I've only played 3 versions of FM but have noted the staleness of this area.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I have some experience with coding during time at Uni, but mainly through my father in law who worked for Remedy Entertainment until he moved onto a much larger games creator.(He worked on Max Payne 1 and 2, and is a huge FM fan). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they can provide a fix within days, but its easy to iron out small bugs in the menus or memory dumps than it is to fix something thats wrong with the ME.

    Edit: Some low budget Cricket game is hardly a good comparison.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabeast View Post
    I have some experience with coding during time at Uni, but mainly through my father in law who worked for Remedy Entertainment until he moved onto a much larger games creator.(He worked on Max Payne 1 and 2, and is a huge FM fan). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they can provide a fix within days, but its easy to iron out small bugs in the menus or memory dumps than it is to fix something thats wrong with the ME.

    Edit: Some low budget Cricket game is hardly a good comparison.
    menu bugs, agreed, are easy to fix, but if the memory dumps were easy to fix, do you not think they would have ironed them out by now??

    Anyways, enough of hijacking the OP's thread...

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabeast View Post
    Actually, there is such a thing, and if you look at pretty much any other games out there, you will see little updates are released quite a lot to fix them. Most games arent released with as many bugs as FM though, nor do they release updates which remove some and add more.

    That is really not true. In the last 6 months I have played at least half a dozen games that were bugged worse than FM.

    You also have to take in to account that FM is a much bigger game than many out there, or at least there is a lot more that can go wrong. I'd put it in the same bracket as an MMO and there is not one MMO out there that has not had problems with bugs at release and appearing after patches.

    Rinso's ripple analogy is perhaps the best I have read to explain how fixing one line of code can wreak havoc on many more. Every action has a consequence.

    You need to understand this before you can make radical statements.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Rinso's ripple analogy is perhaps the best I have read
    awww shucks, thanks dude!!!

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by anagain View Post
    That is really not true. In the last 6 months I have played at least half a dozen games that were bugged worse than FM.

    You also have to take in to account that FM is a much bigger game than many out there, or at least there is a lot more that can go wrong. I'd put it in the same bracket as an MMO and there is not one MMO out there that has not had problems with bugs at release and appearing after patches.

    Rinso's ripple analogy is perhaps the best I have read to explain how fixing one line of code can wreak havoc on many more. Every action has a consequence.

    You need to understand this before you can make radical statements.
    I think most people understand that fixing one issue can cause another.

    The MMO comparison is good, but major bugs get ironed out within days or even hours on a certain game, with minor ones done in the big updates. A MMO is going to have bugs, they are huge games that require a lot more work than a game like FM.

    Btw, would you be kind enough to name and shame these games with bugs? Most games have minor issues, but not many have ones that effect gameplay as much as they do on FM. I have just finished playing through Dragon Age Origins, and theres quite a lot of bugs ( some scenes repeating over and over, some heals not working etc ) which have happened both on mine and my significant others play, but they are problems that can be passed by without causing too many issues with the experience, but sadly for FM when a ME issue happens it can pretty much ruin the game until its fixed.
    Last edited by Seabeast; 02-01-2010 at 04:23.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabeast View Post
    I think most people understand that fixing one issue can cause another.

    The MMO comparison is good, but major bugs get ironed out within days or even hours on a certain game, with minor ones done in the big updates. A MMO is going to have bugs, they are huge games that require a lot more work than a game like FM.

    Btw, would you be kind enough to name and shame these games with bugs? Most games have minor issues, but not many have ones that effect gameplay as much as they do on FM.
    lol there you have just proved you dont know what youre talking about. Look at all the different user settings at the start of the game on FM. Can you possible re-create everything in testing? really?

    And the most obvious game that springs to mind is Mass Effect 1 which, incidentally, the developers REFUSED to patch, despite it having a glaring bug that would crash when you got in an elevator....

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Sorry, but can you please explain how you came to the conclusion that I don't know what im talking about? I honestly cannot figure out how you got that from my post.

    But its funny how i have played through Mass Effect twice and never had such a problem, nor had anyone else I know who played the game complain about this issue. After looking up this bug it seems it wasn't all that common, and a simple restart would fix the issue, shame you can't do that with a bug on FM.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    that require a lot more work than a game like FM.
    ^^ thats how I came to that conclusion. Do you really understand the amount of work that goes into each version of FM? Look at the amount of researchers FM has. You think maybe they base their opinions based on 1 game? No? Oh so they watch a few? Oh but thats easy. Really? Crap. Complete and utter crap.

    as for mass effect, when I had the bug, and looked it up on the forums, thats when I found out there was no planned patch for it, it was a case of, oh well, unlucky, save it before you get in a lift. great customer service there

  29. #29
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    and excuse the double post but, as I said earlier, this is NOT what the Op was intending, and as such, I will desist from now. The OP, along with others, have raised some vaild points, and it would be a shame for the thread to be closed, therefore I will now stfu and leave things be....

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by rinso View Post
    ^^ thats how I came to that conclusion. Do you really understand the amount of work that goes into each version of FM? Look at the amount of researchers FM has. You think maybe they base their opinions based on 1 game? No? Oh so they watch a few? Oh but thats easy. Really? Crap. Complete and utter crap.

    as for mass effect, when I had the bug, and looked it up on the forums, thats when I found out there was no planned patch for it, it was a case of, oh well, unlucky, save it before you get in a lift. great customer service there
    I understand that its going to take a vast ammount of research and people scouting to make up the player database, but when it comes to making the actual game, you will find other developers have to invest a lot more, especially for MMO's. The number of people it takes to make FM is unreal, makes one appreciate the effort put into the research that is done to make this fantastic game. However, this is not the point, none of that has anything to do with this topic, bugs or anything elese i have mentioned in this thread. It just seems to be like you are trying to cause trouble, which is a shame because the OP has a quality thread going on here. Please try not to troll this thread anymore.

    As for the complete and utter crap line, well it is that, simply because you basically wrote a paragraph of crap you believe to be what i think, and then dismissed it. Seriously, what is up with that?
    Last edited by Seabeast; 02-01-2010 at 05:01.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    Please, SI, will you attempt to start a revolution?
    Her majesty is clearly terrified by this prospect, which is why she's just decorated the creators. ;)

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I understand the arguments in favour of issuing a game every two years. The game does often feel like a mere facelift on last year's one. I would be more than delighted to wait an extra year if SI needed more time to work on a football management simulation game.

    The fact of the matter is that certain people within SI clearly realise what it takes to make the game realistic. Although at an infant stage, all the media and player interaction features were a great addition. SI also realises that there is an intangible thing called team morale or harmony that plays a massive part in the game. In numerous experimentations with my favourite tool, fmrte, I have proven that by just changing morale you are able to win impossible games. So the proper weight has been given to it. However, the factors that influence it have not been developed (despite some attempts). This has lead to a weird situation: Morale is hugely important but the player has extremely limited options to do something about it.

    Just think about all the things you would do as a real life manager to develop this morale/harmony. All the different approaches you would take with all the different players. Meetings with your staff and directors. Meetings with agends. Communications meetings. Sponsors of team and individual players. The list is endless really.

    Like I said, whoever has any experience of managing any team of people of any kind knows perfectly well that assigning roles and putting processes in place is only a small part of management and it is definately not the defining factor between success and failure.

    Any manager knows the basics of his industry. Football managers know tactics very very well. The fact though is that no team has ever become great because it used a fantastic tactics. I am not knocking tactics. I am just putting it in its right place. It is an elementary thing in football that managers know how to use. Tactics don't make a team. Management does.

    I think it is natural that this game has concentrated so much on tactics. In the past the processing power of computers was limiting the complexity of programming. It was then only feasible to base the game on tactics which is easier mathematicaly than simulating real life management. I was just hoping that, with the development in technology, it could be done now.

    If it is a matter that we need a couple of years more to get faster processors, I am willing to wait...

  33. #33
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    Morale is hugely important but the player has extremely limited options to do something about it.
    Same as a manager in real life then?

    All the different approaches you would take with all the different players. Meetings with your staff and directors. Meetings with agends. Communications meetings. Sponsors of team and individual players. The list is endless really.
    Lots of meetings then. How do you see that working in FM?

    You can actually organise meetings between the players on FM when morale and underachievement is a major issue. You can also meet with your directors in the 'board room' and you can meet with your staff in the 'backroom advice'. In fact, we now have weekly meetings with our staff in FM10.

    The main methods of influencing the morale of your team on FM is through press conferences, team talks and through player interaction. Also winning games, being successful and giving out new contracts can help. I'm not denying that there is room for improvement but I think what we have is pretty good so far. Confidence isn't something that is easy to control in real life, otherwise Liverpool, for instance, might not have struggled so badly this season. Just like in real life, confidence in FM most often comes through winning football matches and performing well.

    The fact though is that no team has ever become great because it used a fantastic tactics. I am not knocking tactics. I am just putting it in its right place. It is an elementary thing in football that managers know how to use.
    I think this is a gross oversimplification. The entire history of football would seem to disagree with you here, I'm afraid.

    Have you ever read Inverting the Pyramid?

    I think it is natural that this game has concentrated so much on tactics.
    I feel that this is a myth personally but, at the same time, it seems clear to me that any football management simulation should include tactics as a major part of the game.

    I think if you read or listen to the opinions of anyone involved in football, we can conclude that the following aspects the most important in the game:
    - Player quality.
    - Tactical choices and decisions.
    - Issues of motivation and morale.

    This is what is argued by the top coaches and people involved in the game and this is also the case in Football Manager. In fact, having read the opinions of many football coaches myself, I must say that FM does a rather marvellous job of reflecting the complexity (which I obviously wouldn't deny can be improved - but nevertheless what we have is very good in my opinion).

    Going back to the three important factors identified above, we can say that in real life, as in Football Manager, the following (although hugely simplified, of course) might be said to be generally true:
    Good players + good tactics + good morale = success.
    Good players + bad tactics + bad morale = underachieving.
    Bad players + good tactics + good morale = overachieving.

    And so on and so forth...

    I don't see this argument that tactics need to be concentrated on more than anything else in FM. If you check out Dafuge's record on FM09 with his Dartford team, this pretty much blows the opinion that tactics are the only important thing on FM out of the water. Dafuge normally builds a fundamentally sound tactic but generally works on squad building primarily, scouting for the best players and bringing them to his club. He doesn't tend to do very much in the way of tactical tweaking and, as I understand it, uses the same kind of approach throughout his career. His success is a testament to the fact that good players and good man management/motivation, alongside making good non-tactical decisions in other areas, are all just as important as tactics in FM.

    To play Football Manager, you do need a basic knowledge of football tactics, and that is how it should be. Furthermore, the history of football is littered with examples of football teams who have managed to overachieve due to playing to their strengths. Contemporary examples might include Greece in 2004, Liverpool in 2005 or perhaps a team like Bolton under Sam Allardyce. Classic examples might include Hungary in the 1950s, Herbert Chapman's Arsenal or even Sir Alf Ramsey's 'Wingless Wonders'. I'm sure other people will think of even stronger examples. The point is that there are so many examples of teams achieving success way beyond their resources due to tactical choices which meant that they could play to their strengths, play as a collective whole way beyond their individual abilities and also exploit weaknesses in their opposition. That's what the great managers do, as well as being successful at man management, motivation, buying players and all of the 'behind the scenes' work that goes on in the running of a football club, and that is also what you need to do on FM to be successful.

    Regards,
    C.
    Last edited by crouchaldinho; 02-01-2010 at 22:31.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I am sorry crouchaldinho but since you hurt my feelings by shouting and swearing at another thread I don't want to speak to you. Besides you think that what we have is excellent so you are clearly not the person to strive for improvement let alone to think radically. Thanks for the input anyway...

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    I understand the arguments in favour of issuing a game every two years. The game does often feel like a mere facelift on last year's one. I would be more than delighted to wait an extra year if SI needed more time to work on a football management simulation game.
    Yes, but it's not going to happen. Whilst there may be arguments in favour of it, they'll all be rejected. Add to that that 75% of fans (at least) would be appalled with a two yearly game release. Then CM would have a major advantage.

    Like I said, whoever has any experience of managing any team of people of any kind knows perfectly well that assigning roles and putting processes in place is only a small part of management and it is definately not the defining factor between success and failure.
    And what is your experience Mr Tak? Championship, League 2, Blue Square South or Manchester Sunday League? You keep mentioning this 'anyone involved in management knows'. Do you know someone or do you manage? If you do, and you manage a Sunday League team or schoolboys then I think there is a whole world of difference.

    The fact though is that no team has ever become great because it used a fantastic tactics. I am not knocking tactics. I am just putting it in its right place. It is an elementary thing in football that managers know how to use. Tactics don't make a team. Management does.
    Yes, but a good manager uses his quality knowledge of the tactical side of the game to build success. Do you think Manchester United win everything because morale is good or because Sir Alex knows how to build a winning formation? It's a bit of both, I suspect, but his tactical knowledge of the game is phenomenal. And I hate Manchester United, but I respect that Sir Alex is a manager of the highest quality and that his team don't win games because they're all happy and having fantastic team parties.

    Right now I am listening to Bournemouth lose 2-0 to Northampton (yes, I know I should be there - working nights wreaks havoc with your life). Eddie Howe is having a torrid season with injuries and it is made worse by the FL trying to screw us. We lost Cummings (left back) this week so Eddie went out with a 5-3-2 formation and we conceded twice in the first 15 minutes. After the second goal he switched the team back to the usual 4-4-2 and Northampton suddenly didn't find it so easy. Are you, then, saying that tactics had no part in that? If we'd gone out 4-4-2 would we be 2-0 down?

    Yes morale has a part in the players favouring the usual 4-4-2 but the tactic is the key part here.

    Eddie bought on Supa Fletch near the end of the first half to add more height to the front line and a more battling presence. Now that's a tactical change that makes us look a different side.

    Again, it's the morale that Supa brings us changing things, but, more so, it's a tactical change.

    The Bournemouth team morale is great. It's a small squad brought together in challenging circumstances. Eddie is a great manager but it's not just him boosting morale. He picks the right teams and the right formations. That's what wins us games.



    I think it is natural that this game has concentrated so much on tactics. In the past the processing power of computers was limiting the complexity of programming. It was then only feasible to base the game on tactics which is easier mathematicaly than simulating real life management. I was just hoping that, with the development in technology, it could be done now.
    Well it's the match engine that keeps causing people to say the game is bugged to hell, not the team morale mechanisms. I think there is infinitely more complexity in the tactical/match engine side of FM than there is the player happiness/morale side of FM.

    Maybe the fact that the mental side of the game hasn't change a huge amount has something to do with that.

  36. #36
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    I am sorry crouchaldinho but since you hurt my feelings by shouting and swearing at another thread I don't want to speak to you. Besides you think that what we have is excellent so you are clearly not the person to strive for improvement let alone to think radically. Thanks for the input anyway...
    He took the time to reply to your thread and yet you don't wish to reply to him? Are you not willing to accept that your ideas may be wrong? You have to look at both sides of a discussion, even if you may disagree with the other view.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I definitely think that small changes to tactics or slight "problems" in the tactic have too much of a negative effect.

    I wish SI would focus more on the media as this is how we all see and experience football. As you say in the OP, relationships need to be more in-depth and you should be able to improve your team by genuinely getting them to trust you and want to play for you which it just doesnt feel like it does.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    I am sorry crouchaldinho but since you hurt my feelings by shouting and swearing at another thread I don't want to speak to you.
    I haven't been shouting and swearing anywhere. I don't like swearing for a start!

    I cannot help but wonder if you have got me mixed up with someone else?

    I've given you some constructive feedback on your topic of choice. I think it is a shame that you won't consider it.

    Besides you think that what we have is excellent so you are clearly not the person to strive for improvement let alone to think radically.
    Although I do feel that what we have at the moment is very good, I also see plenty of potential for improvement, a fact which I stressed in my post above. I'm always trying to think of ways to make this game the best it can be. That's why I am involved as a beta tester and a researcher for SI. You will see that I give constructive feedback on the game very often in the beta forum, on the research forums, in the bugs and data threads, in the tactics forum and here in GD. Also see my FM09 feedback thread from last year. To say that I am not interested in improving FM is therefore thoroughly incorrect.

    Regards,
    C.
    Last edited by crouchaldinho; 02-01-2010 at 16:37.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    The big change the game needs to make is to create challenges in the game more realistically.

    It is claimed that the game balances itself out by making teams counter your tactics due to levelling up - is this true?

    In reality the teams at the top are the ones with the better players. Face it Chelsea's real life tactics are pretty poor. No width, no creativity in midfield - so why are they top scoring the most goals? Well, a strike force of Drogba and Anelka helps and midfielders like Lampard, Essien and Ballack. In other words the players transcend the tactics. There is serious talk of how the loss of the African players will affect them as they know Chelsea's tactics rely on the strength and goals of Drogba - Sturridge is not a replacement.

    In my game I am in the play-off places with Romone Rose heading towards 20 goals and yet there has been no interest from higher league clubs. In reality Chris Hussey showed form and was signed by Coventry forcing us to replace a player - something we haven't yet done. This is a challenging part of the game I haven't seen - your best players being poached by higher league clubs. Is it in the game because none of my players have been bid upon? Forced squad rebuild is a way to add another layer of depth to the game.

    I also disagree with teams learning your tactics and this seems to be the way the game balances itself out. A tactic lives or dies by the players in it - one equation that Crouchaldinho left out = Good players+bad tactics+good morale=Success dependant on the quality of the players. We also need to have individual players carrying a team forward to success - Steven Gerrard is a good example of this - regardless of the tactics.

    The game should be balanced less with artificial balancing but more with injuries, suspensions and losing players to bigger clubs - that is the revolution the game needs. A philosopical one

  40. #40
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Well said, a philosophical change is what I am talking about.

    Anyway,

    http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=173086

    This is a thread that shows the quality of the players/media/staff interaction "features" we have at the moment. "Features" that some people have characterised "excellent". Let me repeat: fair play to whoever within the SI decided to build them in. Nevertheless, they are still very very poor.

    Anagain, wrote previously that we simply disagree and let's leave it at that, I said fair enough, and then he decided to attack me personaly. I have never managed a football team, if you really like to know. However, I have started by managing small teams and I currently manage a large organisation.

    I am glad you brought the Alex Ferguson example up. Alex is a great manager and a personal acquaintance from the races. He is not presenting some unkown tactic that shocks the opponent. Everyone knows how ManU plays and it is really simple. One of Alex's talents is that he gets the best out of his players. Careful though, because you are inclined to say "but, sure, this is what FM is all about: to give specific instructions to specific players and maximise their performance". Big mistake. Taking the best out of a player has not so much to do with giving him the right instructions but more with the relationship you develop with him. What instructions did Alex give Solskjaer before he went in? Were they tactical instructions? Did he tell him how many clicks forward he should be? lol

    I don't want to concentrate on morale either. Morale is a general term and does not really help my cause. Relationships include mixtures trust, love, hate, fear, respect, ambition, competition, jealousy, anger etc.

    That is why a visionary is needed to simulate the wolrd of management. Someone who sees into the future. Because it is extremely complicated and daunting.

  41. #41
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Personally, I think it's far too easy to build a squad capable of dominating the league. The game has balanced this in the last couple of versions by making player quality less important than real life IMO, to make the game more of a challenge.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by crouchaldinho View Post
    I don't see this argument that tactics need to be concentrated on more than anything else in FM. If you check out Dafuge's record on FM09 with his Dartford team, this pretty much blows the opinion that tactics are the only important thing on FM out of the water. Dafuge normally builds a fundamentally sound tactic but generally works on squad building primarily, scouting for the best players and bringing them to his club. He doesn't tend to do very much in the way of tactical tweaking and, as I understand it, uses the same kind of approach throughout his career. His success is a testament to the fact that good players and good man management/motivation, alongside making good non-tactical decisions in other areas, are all just as important as tactics in FM.
    Just to add to this, I've done the same thing this year.

    This is my current career with Tooting & Mitcham, which I have played using the same tactic from day one that I created using the demo. I never change my tactics going into a match and only ever make changes if I need to towards the end of the game. The tactic hasn't even been adjusted after the patches.

    Code:
    Season    League                   Position    Achievements
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2010/11   Blue Square South        5th         Promoted via playoffs
    2011/12   Blue Square Premier      8th
    2012/13   Blue Square Premier      2nd         Promoted via playoffs, FA Trophy finalists
    2013/14   Coca-Cola League 2       6th         Lost in playoff final
    2014/15   Coca-Cola League 2       1st         Promoted as champions
    2015/16   Coca-Cola League 1       4th         Promoted via playoffs, JPT finalists
    2016/17   Coca-Cola Championship   9th
    2017/18   Coca-Cola Championship   6th         Lost in playoff semi
    2018/19   Coca-Cola Championship   4th         Promoted via playoffs
    2019/20   Barclays Premier League  16th        
    2020/21   Barclays Premier League  11th
    2021/22   Barclays Premier League  3rd         FA Cup finalists
    2022/23   Barclays Premier League  7th         Carling Cup finalists, FA Cup winners
    2023/24   Barclays Premier League  3rd
    2024/25   Barclays Premier League  5th         Champions League finalists
    2025/26   Barclays Premier League  3rd         Carling Cup finalists
    2026/27   Barclays Premier League  2nd
    2027/28   Barclays Premier League  1st         Premier League and Champions League winners
    2028/29   Barclays Premier League  1st         PL, CL and CWC winners, Carling Cup finalists
    What has been said is true, I work hard on a solid tactic then concentrate on getting better players and keeping them happy.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Sorry lads but it's very funny that dafuge had to present his "achievements" as some sort of an argument. Most of the players do that at least once in every edition. We take a tiny little team and lead it to conquering the Champions League.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    Anagain, wrote previously that we simply disagree and let's leave it at that, I said fair enough, and then he decided to attack me personaly. I have never managed a football team, if you really like to know. However, I have started by managing small teams and I currently manage a large organisation.

    I am glad you brought the Alex Ferguson example up. Alex is a great manager and a personal acquaintance from the races. He is not presenting some unkown tactic that shocks the opponent. Everyone knows how ManU plays and it is really simple. One of Alex's talents is that he gets the best out of his players. Careful though, because you are inclined to say "but, sure, this is what FM is all about: to give specific instructions to specific players and maximise their performance". Big mistake. Taking the best out of a player has not so much to do with giving him the right instructions but more with the relationship you develop with him. What instructions did Alex give Solskjaer before he went in? Were they tactical instructions? Did he tell him how many clicks forward he should be? lol

    I don't want to concentrate on morale either. Morale is a general term and does not really help my cause. Relationships include mixtures trust, love, hate, fear, respect, ambition, competition, jealousy, anger etc.
    Well, I am sorry if you took my question as an insult. It wasn't meant that way. You sounded like you were managing in football to give your the points you draw your conclusions from. I was merely asking, in my own way (which was probably the wrong way, as it usually is), where this management was.

    I decided to continue the discussion because you seem unwilling to accept a counter viewpoint as if your thoughts are obviously correct.

    As I said before the slider system is just a way of putting the tactical side of the game into a computer simulation. What would you do to better represent that Solskjaer should play advanced or deep? You have to have that represented somehow, and I don't think you can make that happen just by treating Solskjaer with respect. You have to have some sort of input system to tell him where to be. The sliders do that.

    If you completely take the sliders out of FM what are you left with to tell your team how to play? Set formations with no degree of tweaking? You play 4-4-2 A or you play 4-4-2 B, but you have more ways to let your players know they respect you and to boost their trust, love, hate or fear of you. That, somehow, seems as shallow a game as one that susposedly is a simple case of pick a tactic and go with it.

    We can take FM forward in new ways, because I agree that the personal relationship side of FM can be improved upon, but you can't take out the sliders completely. You have to tell a player how you want him to play, even if that is just to tell him to play a free role.

    So what instructions did Sir Alex tell you he gave Solskjaer if you know the man?

    The game uses Morale because it encompasses a range of terms into one easy to compare category. If FM starts to use a whole range of social relationships then it is going to become over complicated and more Sims 2 than Football Manager. Would knowing how jealous your top scorer is of you or his fellow striker really help you improve team performances?

    I don't want to concentrate on morale either. Morale is a general term and does not really help my cause.
    But this is a discussion. Discussion's can't evaluate a theory if you choose to ignore something because it does not conform to your wishes. It's like Newton saying he ignored the apple because he didn't want to believe in gravity. It didn't fall because it wasn't there. And, yes, I know Newton believed in gravity....just suppose he didn't.

    You have to look at different viewpoints or you come across fanatical. SI looked at different viewpoints when they devised their current tactical interface; the wizard. People had said they didn't like the sliders so SI gave them a new way to devise tactics that left the sliding of sliders to the engine. They obviously decided they couldn't be removed though, and you can still tweak them to get across how you want your team to play.
    Last edited by anagain; 03-01-2010 at 01:42.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    It is a misunderstanding that you think I want to toss the whole tactical system of FM. All I want is to give tactics the same importance as they have in real life. Which is not as big as it is in FM now. Because the actual management is more important.

    We have reached a point where almost everything that happens in the virtual FM field has to be explained by tactics. And that is fine, it is a great game, I will always buy it anyway. That's not to say though that there is not an opportunity to create something monumental. I don't even think it will be like SIMS. I imagine it will be like nothing we have experienced before. But I am just a romantic fool sometimes...

    Sir Alex told Ole (and I know that from an interview not from the horse's mouth, so to speak) "see this cup? you will walk in front of it but you won't be able to touch it". Now, this is some fine piece of management and I am sure Sir Alex would have a different thing to say to anyone he would choose to throw in.

    Of course the natural question is "ok, so how do you actually propose to simulate real life management?" The natural answer is "I don't have a single clue" I am not a creative developer, sadly. I believe though that there is a great opportunity.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Without reading the responses so far, here are my two cents:

    Most of the people who know and love football will know immediately what I am talking about (tactics is a very small part of management).
    That could not be further from the truth. Tactics and the evolution of tactics is arguably the most key component of the 'real life' game of football. To think that it isn't basically nullifies your post. I'd suggest posting this in the tactics forum and I imagine you'll get a fairly good discussion in there.

    You've also not mentioned many ideas in reference to your 'leap of faith' SI need to take. For me the game is at a stage now where it has all the components a real life manager has at his disposal. What SI need to work on now is making certain aspects slightly less tedious (press conferences) and more varied (team talks).

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    I am sorry crouchaldinho but since you hurt my feelings by shouting and swearing at another thread I don't want to speak to you. Besides you think that what we have is excellent so you are clearly not the person to strive for improvement let alone to think radically. Thanks for the input anyway...
    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    Sorry lads but it's very funny that dafuge had to present his "achievements" as some sort of an argument. Most of the players do that at least once in every edition. We take a tiny little team and lead it to conquering the Champions League.
    And now having read through the thread and responses I've read these frankly childish responses. Tak you started off a thread with good potential for discussion here but these above responses indicate you are very blinkered and stubborn in terms of being 'creative'. Shame really as crouchaldinho clearly put a lot of thought into his response. If you can't take constructive criticism of your own ideas then I'd suggest you don't look for discussion like this in future. Shame.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    The fact though is that no team has ever become great because it used a fantastic tactics. I am not knocking tactics. I am just putting it in its right place. It is an elementary thing in football that managers know how to use. Tactics don't make a team. Management does.
    I think the tacticians behind these successes would disagree actually:

    Greece - Euro 2004
    Porto - Champions League 2004
    Marseille - European Cup 1993
    Red Star - European Cup 1991
    Ajax - European Cups 1971/72/73
    The Dutch Team that totally revolutionized tactics with Total Football in the 70's.

    To claim that tactics are an elementary thing that all managers know how to use is absolutely ludicrous. The difference between winning and losing over the history of football has been down to tactical 'leaps of faith' so to speak. Outwitting the other team. Knowing more about how to exploit weaknesses in the opposition. I can understand you calling for greater detail in other aspects of a manager's day to day life in FM but at the cost of the tactical engine? Ridiculous.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    This is how much thought crouchaldinho puts into his response: "It's just rubbish. Moronic and infantile nonsense."

    Excuse me iacovone but I am not talking to a bully.

    As for presenting dafuge's career as some kind of an argument, what can I say, I think it's funny.

    To answer your observation about tactics, I completely agree that tactics have been evolved during the history of football (along with player's abilities, pitches, equipment, training methods, diets and many many things). I don't think that has anything to do with what I'm saying though...

    Edit: I would like to ask you to keep this discussion civilised. As for the examples you mentioned, I am delighted. Let us take Greece 2004, for example. What was the revolutionary tactical approach? Put 11 players behind the ball and wait for the right moment (preferably a set piece) to strike. Trully innovative! Greece's success had nothing to do with a new tactic that confused the opposition. It was based on pure psychology, masterminded by the great Otto. He basically created a team (hard to tell how) that was determined, strong and resilient. Those players would do anything for each other. He also exploited the fact that Greece were complete underdogs and their opponents never saw them coming.
    Last edited by tak; 03-01-2010 at 02:47.

  50. #50
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    Sorry lads but it's very funny that dafuge had to present his "achievements" as some sort of an argument. Most of the players do that at least once in every edition. We take a tiny little team and lead it to conquering the Champions League.
    Why do you find it necessary to belittle dafuge's achievements with Tooting and Mitchell. Dafuges challenge as well as Gundo's and all the other small club to big club challenges are actually quite difficult and rely on using all the areas of FM. So this includes the morale system, the scouting system etc but the most important one is the Tactical side of it.

    Dafuge has posted his achievements as a means to show what can be achieved when you have a very strong tactic and also bring in the players who will fit your systerm and not just those who are the best in the world.

    You did have a great opportunity for a very good and possibly lively discussion here (which is why this is the General Discussiono forum) but unfortunately you've managed to kill that dead with your refusal to take on some constructive critisim and also the proof thatg tactics are an important part of the game.

  51. #51
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    This is how much thought crouchaldinho puts into his response: "It's just rubbish. Moronic and infantile nonsense."

    Excuse me iacovone but I am not talking to a bully.
    As far as I can see (please point out if I've missed it) he has not written your thoughts off as 'rubbish, moronic or infantile nonsense' . He has written a good post addressing what you believe needs changing and fought with a counter argument.

    As for presenting dafuge's career as some kind of an argument, what can I say, I think it's funny.
    It was a frame of reference to back up Crouchaldinho's point that a lot can be achieved in FM without the need for being a tactical expert.

    To answer your observation about tactics, I completely agree that tactics have been evolved during the history of football (along with player's abilities, pitches, equipment, training methods, diets and many many things). I don't think that has anything to do with what I'm saying though...
    Tactical evolution has everything to do with what you are saying. You are stating that tactics have very little to do with the modern manager, which as shown by my posts is completely incorrect. If you can't see past this basic error in your argument then there isn't much hope of a decent debate here. Tactical knowledge is THE most important tool a football manager must have, especially at the top level, where without it he will not succeed. Simple as that.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    It's not really. And I don't understand how the fact that tactics evolved throught 100 years (as they would) makes them THE most important tool of a manager. Of course a succesfull manager has to have strong tactical knowledge, but, especially at the top level, this is secondary.

    You are really getting confused though. Dafuge made a point that a lot can be achieved in FM without the need for being a tactical expert? I thought you were saying tactics is THE most important thing in real life? Is FM such a bad simulation then?

  53. #53
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Almondo View Post
    Why do you find it necessary to belittle dafuge's achievements with Tooting and Mitchell. Dafuges challenge as well as Gundo's and all the other small club to big club challenges are actually quite difficult and rely on using all the areas of FM. So this includes the morale system, the scouting system etc but the most important one is the Tactical side of it.

    Dafuge has posted his achievements as a means to show what can be achieved when you have a very strong tactic and also bring in the players who will fit your systerm and not just those who are the best in the world.

    You did have a great opportunity for a very good and possibly lively discussion here (which is why this is the General Discussiono forum) but unfortunately you've managed to kill that dead with your refusal to take on some constructive critisim and also the proof thatg tactics are an important part of the game.
    Dafuge made a point that he played one tactic for 25 years and won everything, so the game is not very much about tactics.

    At the same time other people say that football is all about tactics and fair play to the game for reflecting that.

    I am saying.. well you know what I'm saying

  54. #54
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Right let me show you my standpoint on the issue:

    FM is an excellent simulation in my opinion.

    Tactics are an integral part of a manager's arsenal in real life.

    The tactical element in FM is therefore one of the largest and most detailed parts of the game.

    However, despite it having great depth, Crouchaldinho, and then dafuge emphasized that it is NOT essential to be an expert within the game to achieve something - backing up your point originally.

    I think it is you that is getting confused.

    My final point tonight on the issue:

    FM is great in this respect because it allows the casual gamer to be successful in FM if they can buy the best players in the world for example. In that instance (as in real life for the most part) your team will be a success. HOWEVER for the devoted tacticians amongst us it is possible to turn an 'average' side into an overachieving side, capable of great success with below top class players. That is why I'd say the FM series has been so successful - it incorporates a whole host of managerial duties, but never insists on you being an absolute expert in all fields to achieve success within the game. And this happens in real life too.

    ps. Please explain to me why you think tactics are secondary at the top level. Night.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I think the game needs what the OP is suggesting. We pretty much pay for SI to update this game yearly with new features, which is pretty much how it is with all sports games, so thats not a dig at SI. However, It would be nice to come into a new FM that feels fresh, new, exciting, because lets be honest, not much has changed over the last few years.

    Talkin to the press is very poor, and feels pretty much meaningless for the most part, and some of the reactions you get from the players...well the less said about it the better. 9 times out of 10 you tend to just click the same old reply to the question. do we even read the full question after a month or two of them?

    Training needs a total revamp, it should allow us to focus on a player a lot more rather than simply move a few sliders which allows a player to work on 4 or 5 areas when most of the time you would rather they focused on one. I find the training side of the game to be a giant snorefest, and would love for S.I to revamp this with better options, maybe a training ME that allows you to set up full on training sessions which would allow you to see how the players train, who is on form before the games. I know you get the odd report about players training, but its not really enough to get a feel for what they are doing during the days before games. Many little things could be used here, setting times for training, showing what time players show up for it, and the time they leave. Some people would probably hate to do this so it could be something you set up and set the assistant to do for you and give you a weekly report. I know some of this could be a little much, but its simply a few ideas.

    I have said this many times, but the transfer/contract negotitations should be a face to face, or over the phone action so you can barter with the clubs/players rather than wait for a day or two for them to reject a bid/contract. It's a bit annoying to have to wait a day to hear back if the player has accepted terms or not, then have to do it all over again if he wants a bit more money, surely this is where agents could come into the game. A director of football, or whoever deals with the transfers should have more of a role in the dealings too ( I'm not talking Dennis Wise style, but more like Ivan Gazidis of Arsenal, or how David Dein used to do his job ) I know on the Jose Antonio Reyes deal DD went over to talk over the deal with the Sevilla president, so the deal was sorted out and Reyes flew to England to complete the move later that day. I know all deals arent completed this way, but its better than the current FM dealings.

    A lot of managers tell the DoF the player they want and leave them to do the work, which would be something that could take away from the transfer system, so they could be used to make dealings more of a real time things, done either via conference call, face to face or whatever. I would love a system where you get in touch with the club/agent regarding the player, then theres a meeting with the player to trash out personal terms before the medical. I would think the player gets 'interviewed' a little by the manager and are asked questions, and id guess that they have questions for the manager also....like what position they would be used etc, because the story about Silvestre turning down Liverpool before Joining Man united was interesting, considering he turned them down because they wanted him to play at left back, which he ended up doing for Man utd anyway, but this could be something that would make the transfer dealings a lot more interactive and intersting.

    I think it would make the transfers something that would be a lot more interesting than pressing submit bid, selecting player role ' back up for the first team ' and offering the contract.

    Agents pretty much have no place in FM and it would make the transfer windows more interesting if players were offered to you more, agents contacting you saying a player would like to join the club etc etc. If you watch a lot of real life managers during Press sessions they always talk about agents calling them saying they have a player who is the best thing since sliced bread, or they constantly have the mobile on the go with agents trying to sell them players, but ive only been offered about 3 players in FM10 so far.

    The players medical would be something that could be improved. A full report of the player would be something that could add another interesting factor in transfers. The club doctors/physio could send you a report regarding the players health, past injuries and maybe even their opinion on how the players health will be in the future, for example....say Liverpool sign Emile Heskey this month, they would obviously check his levels of fitness, any past issues and pass/fail him based on this and more, but surely if they reported to Rafa that it looked like he only had a year left in his legs because his fitness was low, it would be something that could make Rafa switch transfer targets, but again, only ideas off the top of my head.

    The tactics are almost there for me, in FM10 its done quite well, although id like a little more diversity in what instructions i can give to certain players.

    Anyway, thats enough for now, hope you guys like some of the ideas.
    Last edited by Seabeast; 03-01-2010 at 03:12.

  56. #56
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by iacovone View Post
    Right let me show you my standpoint on the issue:

    FM is an excellent simulation in my opinion.

    Tactics are an integral part of a manager's arsenal in real life.

    The tactical element in FM is therefore one of the largest and most detailed parts of the game.

    However, despite it having great depth, Crouchaldinho, and then dafuge emphasized that it is NOT essential to be an expert within the game to achieve something - backing up your point originally.

    I think it is you that is getting confused.

    My final point tonight on the issue:

    FM is great in this respect because it allows the casual gamer to be successful in FM if they can buy the best players in the world for example. In that instance (as in real life for the most part) your team will be a success. HOWEVER for the devoted tacticians amongst us it is possible to turn an 'average' side into an overachieving side, capable of great success with below top class players. That is why I'd say the FM series has been so successful - it incorporates a whole host of managerial duties, but never insists on you being an absolute expert in all fields to achieve success within the game. And this happens in real life too.

    ps. Please explain to me why you think tactics are secondary at the top level. Night.
    How, according to what you are saying that football management is all about tactics, can FM be an excellent simulation when, still according to you, you can achieve something without being a tactical expert?

  57. #57
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    It's not really. And I don't understand how the fact that tactics evolved throught 100 years (as they would) makes them THE most important tool of a manager. Of course a succesfull manager has to have strong tactical knowledge, but, especially at the top level, this is secondary.
    Well here is something to start reading, then. Yes, it is only wiki but you'll be linked to other articles.

    I'm not sure you're willing to understand if it doesn't get people on your cause though.

    You could spend some money on this book if you so wish too. Someone mentioned it above.

  58. #58
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    How, according to what you are saying that football management is all about tactics, can FM be an excellent simulation when, still according to you, you can achieve something without being a tactical expert?
    Have a think about the definition of 'achieve something'. It doesn't mean win every competition in world football, its relative. If you're Burnley and you can take them into the top half then you have achieved something significant in my book. My point is that this could be achieved following either method in FM. You could be a tactical expert working with average players (like Hodgeson at Fulham IRL), or you could be a transfer guru (like Redknapp was at Pompey). That is reflected in game and is why I stated that I think FM is an excellent simulation.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Guys, this little war would be much better done via the private messaging or something, its ruining the thread.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I have no problems with the current tactical system in the game (though it could do with some more individual options) I think sliders are the most important part in the game (you cannot very well talk with your virtual players) because you cannot expect your players to perform how you want by just putting them in a formation. Similarly tactics is the most important part of the real game....a tactical genius could overachieve with a bunch of poor players while a tactical fool could destroy a team containing superstars. The tactics creator has gone a long way in simplifying the sliders in this version (though i have ditched it after finding that my team will play a more solid game if i go back to the old model).

    However as anagain said...it does retain the 20 numbers. This is the only sore point in the game (for me). Once again please dont misunderstand (happening a lot to me these days)...sliders are necessary...but what is not necessary is the 20 clicks for mentality, passing, creative freedom and closing down...in one of the earlier versions someone said you need it to position a player on the pitch...but you already have so many positions available in the formation...for example a central midfielder has defensive, normal and attacking positions while the defenders too have the option of standing in the penalty box or outside (i have not tried this so i dont know whether this is true...stating what i see on the pitch )

    What really is the difference between a 16 creative freedom and a 18-19 creative freedom?? how does it affect the passing of a player if it is set to 2 or 4 (seeing that both the options are short) Maybe instead of all those numbers, you can simply the tactics system to just three (or in case of mentality and passing to five) clicks? For example passing can be set as short, mixed, direct and long? That will go a long way in simplifying the system to what type of passing should be chosen rather than deciding whether to choose 7 passing or a 12 passing?

    And the numbers of options could be increased in the individual tactics screen? There has been some improvement in this region with the "Roam from Position" and the "Wideplay" options...but a couple of other options that could be used are asking the players to come deep to get the ball...or asking them to help the defense (which could see the player in question following the ball by coming one (or two depending on his mentality) position back??

    Regarding media interaction...i remember that in my first championship manager game (i think it was 01/02) you used to get a news item if your team went through (i think it was five games) a winning, losing, unbeaten or winless streaks. The same was for the players who impressed in a number of games. I wonder why did they leave that out (i understand why they left the players' since you can release a comment but why did they leave the team's?) That could have increased the players' bonding with the manager.

    Another media item that could be used was for an uncapped/dropped player from the national team with the club manager saying that he is ready to play for his country (or something along that line) and either the national manager agreeing/disagreeing with the comment and/or a news item saying that while the player is in good form, the current first choice player is performing on a consistent basis..or even the opposite might be used?

    (p.s.: I think this post is a logical one and hope that it adds something constructive to the thread. I have written the post based on my understanding of the game and i hope it is enough to know how the game works. I also hope that i am not being "pedantic" nor am i "trolling" the thread. Finally, the gist of this post is not about arguing that night is day or day is night...if i have wasted someone's time...then i apologize....thank you)
    Last edited by tingting; 03-01-2010 at 06:45.

  61. #61
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    Sorry lads but it's very funny that dafuge had to present his "achievements" as some sort of an argument. Most of the players do that at least once in every edition. We take a tiny little team and lead it to conquering the Champions League.
    But I've done it without any real tactical input at all, all I've achieved is due to the 'other stuff' without concentrating too much on tactics. I thought that was what the thread was getting at.

    I'm not trying to say that my 'achievements' are outstanding and something completely out of the ordinary, other people have done a lot better than I have. I'm just trying to say that it is possible to achieve a decent (not unbelievable) level of success with almost no focus on tactical tweaking at all.

    I'm quite happy to admit that the way I play is perhaps not the most realistic, it is just the way I find the most enjoyable.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I personally don't believe that the game is too reliant on tactics. The ease with which to build a decent tactic with the wizard underlines this. The most important factor of this game is managing your squad. It's about having the right players to suit your tactics.

    It's no good littering your team with attacking flair players with low determination if you're going to play on the "overload" setting. You risk falling behind in such situations, and the low determination will hinder any comeback. This is not a result of the games reliance on tactics, this is a result of poor management of the squad (picking the wrong players).

    You also won't win if you're unable to manage your players' condition. Having a strong first XI is not enough, because fatigue and injuries will occur. If you have to rely on unfit players playing, or you haven't properly organised your back up, then you will struggle.

    Morale and teamtalks have been explored numerous times, and the effect both have on the way the game pans out is vitally important. This is why people come on here and complain about going on long unbeaten streaks to then suddenly find themselves on long non-winning streaks. It's not that the game is unfair, but merely that the player undervalues the role of morale. Look at Villa last season - went 16 games unbeaten, and then failed to win in 11. Similarly, look at Birmingham City at the moment. Not a team of world beaters, but their belief in themselves has helped put them on an incredible run.

  63. #63
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    One thing about the sliders is does it give us too much control over players? And does it give too many options?

    For example if you look at Nani. He was obviously bought as a replacement for the outgoing Ronaldo but he hasn't worked out. But I am sure that by using the sliders you can probably find a formula to make him an effective player. But if you sign a new winger who has the ability to beat players but has a poor final ball - Aaron Lennon for example - you will obviously have to work on his final ball and decision making; I get the impression Harry has. This would never happen overnight and FM10 has bought this aspect into the game very well. But they could go further, instead of being able to change the slider values of a player the adjustment should be made over time from training and the PPM selection. It is a manager's job to spot the gaps in a players game and solve it.

    Also during the match you should only have access to touchline shouts. This can be evolved to team and individual shouts - ie telling a team to hassle more or an individual to pass into space. You can already change opponent instructions/substitute etc in the touchline instructions.

    Sliders may be needed for the ME engine to work properly by with player roles, duties and an amended touchline shouts to encompass individual shouts we should be able to change tactics without us directly accessing them. They should be in the background without our ability to change them.

  64. #64
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Perfect-Fm'er! View Post
    Far more in-depth analysis from scouts/assistant manager. Not just "Chelsea haven't scored many goals in between 76th-90th minute.."

    etc..

    more like "Chelsea have used a 4-5-1 system more regularly with Joe Cole playing as the most advanced midfielder, he likes to find pockets of space"

    "the holding midfielder usually looks to get on the ball as much as possible, while the other midfielder looks to break from midfield to support forwards"

    "The striker likes to drop deep to recieve the ball OR..the striker likes to run the channels"

    "both their wingers enjoy staying right out wide and keeping their width.."

    "this team usually play a high line"

    Things like this, this is information managers will recieve before everygame, along with player monitors fitness levels, distance covered...or things like "Assistant manager informs you, Player A's work rate drops considerably as a game goes on.."

    then it's upto you what you do with that information.
    This type of in depth analysis would need to have complex programming language!

  65. #65
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by iacovone View Post
    Right let me show you my standpoint on the issue:

    FM is an excellent simulation in my opinion.

    Tactics are an integral part of a manager's arsenal in real life.

    The tactical element in FM is therefore one of the largest and most detailed parts of the game.

    However, despite it having great depth, Crouchaldinho, and then dafuge emphasized that it is NOT essential to be an expert within the game to achieve something - backing up your point originally.

    I think it is you that is getting confused.
    Spot on Iacovone. That is exactly our argument.

    It is possible to be a Kevin Keegan or a Harry Redknapp on FM (i.e. someone who focuses primarily on players, motivation and man management). At the same time, you can be a tactical mastermind (as I pretend to be when playing FM! ) and switch between 4-2-3-1s and 4-3-1-2s etc., tweaking this and that to your heart's content!

    Of course, the very best managers in real life can do both and you'll have most success on FM if you can manage the tactical side, motivate your players and bring in top quality players to add to your squad. That's what all of the top coaches do.

    Regards,
    C.

  66. #66
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by iacovone View Post
    You've also not mentioned many ideas in reference to your 'leap of faith' SI need to take.
    Quite right. This notion that the game needs to take a 'leap of faith' is all very vague and it seems to be based on largely unsound principles.

    Of course, there are aspects of the game that need to be worked on. However, I think the depth and complexity is very impressive. If you read any work by a top coach on tactics and motivation and you will find pretty much everything translated to some level in FM. The key to the future of the series is to continue to improve these factors.

    Regards,
    C.

  67. #67
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabeast View Post
    Talkin to the press is very poor, and feels pretty much meaningless for the most part, and some of the reactions you get from the players...well the less said about it the better. 9 times out of 10 you tend to just click the same old reply to the question. do we even read the full question after a month or two of them?
    Have you ever heard an interview with Rafa Benitez? He gets asked the same questions 90% of the time and he 'clicks' the same answers, usually involving the phrases, 'we have kwality', 'we have confidence' and 'we concentrate only on the next game' etc.

    Press conferences are pretty dull to watch in real life. Have you ever sat watching Sky Sports News before? Yawn. Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

    I'm actually enjoying the press conferences in FM10. I put myself in the shoes of the manager and, although I sometimes give the same answers, I also shake things up when I'm going through a bad run of form or I need a win.

    Having said all of that, this is clearly an area of the game which will continue to evolve and it's obvious that there is plenty of room for improvement.

    Training needs a total revamp, it should allow us to focus on a player a lot more rather than simply move a few sliders which allows a player to work on 4 or 5 areas when most of the time you would rather they focused on one. I find the training side of the game to be a giant snorefest, and would love for S.I to revamp this with better options, maybe a training ME that allows you to set up full on training sessions which would allow you to see how the players train, who is on form before the games.
    Training is an area that could be developed and possibly changed. However, something like a training ME would be pretty boring in my opinion. It wouldn't add very much to the game at all. I predict that we would end up with a flashy add-on that barely any of us use.

    You have to be careful with the training aspect of the game. I don't know if you have ever watched a training session in real life, but it isn't terribly interesting. I mean to say, it is kind of interesting in real life to see how players are doing, but can you imagine it in FM? The first thing most people would do is turn it off! So it is difficult to see how much beyond the slider control system and the player interaction it could move without becoming terribly dull in the process.

    I have said this many times, but the transfer/contract negotitations should be a face to face, or over the phone action so you can barter with the clubs/players rather than wait for a day or two for them to reject a bid/contract.
    I'm not sure that I could stand this personally. It sounds horrible to me and very tacky in my opinion.

    Agents pretty much have no place in FM and it would make the transfer windows more interesting if players were offered to you more, agents contacting you saying a player would like to join the club etc etc. If you watch a lot of real life managers during Press sessions they always talk about agents calling them saying they have a player who is the best thing since sliced bread, or they constantly have the mobile on the go with agents trying to sell them players, but ive only been offered about 3 players in FM10 so far.
    This one is a potentially good suggestion. I quite liked it when agents used to send you a video of a player. I'm not dreaming, am I? I'm sure that was on one of the CM games. Does anyone remember?

    The tactics are almost there for me, in FM10 its done quite well, although id like a little more diversity in what instructions i can give to certain players.
    I agree with this and I think (and hope!) it will continue to develop. But tactically, I really feel that we are heading in the right direction. I'm thoroughly enjoying the tactical side of FM10 and the tactics creator and tactics shouts are the biggest recent revolution in the game for me personally (bigger than 3D!)

    Regards,
    C.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    love the new role selection, it lessens the importance of the "twenty" slider positions

  69. #69
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    First of all I would like, once more, to ask crouchaldinho to keep away from this thread. We all remember what happened last time (http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=177980&page=4, post 325). He even had the nerve to say that he never swears. People like him disgust me and I wonder why is he not getting banned.

    I would like to say a few things about the importance of tactics issue. My position is of course that tactics are not the most important thing in football management, which for many people is very strange. I too grew up with those wonderful stories about evolution of tactics etc. and believed for many years that they are very important.

    Tactics have indeed been evolved together with players' abilities, training methods, dieticians' studies, improved equipment, improved pitches and many other things. As football grew in popularity, more people got involved and more money were spend, it was only natural that it would get better. The evolution of football becomes easier for the reader if he is shown certain examples like the great Ajax team someone mentioned above. It is customary to think about this team in terms of revolutionary tactics. It was a lot more than that. Michels took revolutionary approaches to building the team and managed the club from top to bottom turning them from amateurs with day jobs to the top European team. Mainly, he worked with psycho-analytical methods. Cruyff said Michels was their father. What Michels did is instill ambition, remove the fear of pain, instill fighting mentality etc.A strong hierarchy was introduced, a clan mentality, the leader being Cruyff. Weak links were sacked, it was the most terrible environment to work in. Many players and staff are still bitter.

    Michels' work was the work of a true leader and yet we are told that he introduced some fantastic tactics and the team became great. Incredibly wrong. Ajax tactics came naturaly through the new managerial approach. It was a result rather than a cause.

    More answers later, because I have to go now...

  70. #70
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I'm still confused as to why my post was so laughable. Didn't it show you that what you are after is possible, backing up your argument?

  71. #71
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Your suggestions are pretty good Tak. But until you can find a way for AI to respond to real situations exactly as a human, they are impossible. I would suggest letting us know when you got that, along with the whole scientific world. ;)

    The current responses to situations are hard coded. They happen, you get a message, maybe a few choices based on that. (What can happen is have more choices. And I'm all for that.) The AI can't exactly look at a situation, then apply human reasoning and make a decision. IRL, the amount of choices any human has at any given time is infinite. Really, you can do whatever you like, whenever you like. Most people, of course, don't. What you're proposing will end up being unnecessarily complex. How do you code something to have infinite choices? A game where you micro manage the egos of twenty or so international superstars, in addition to trying to win a game here and there? That's hardly what most people are looking for. I think we just want to win some games.

  72. #72
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    First of all I would like, once more, to ask crouchaldinho to keep away from this thread. We all remember what happened last time (http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=177980&page=4, post 325).
    I will admit that this wasn't my proudest moment. It was an emotional response to some of the trolling going on in that thread. I regret it and would delete the post if I could do so now. At the same time, I also don't think that it was as terrible as you are making out. You didn't exactly cover yourself in glory either!

    Please accept my apology if I have upset you by referring to the idea of the AI cheating as 'moronic and infantile nonsense'. That thread has gone and finished. I would hope that you could move on.

    He even had the nerve to say that he never swears.
    I don't see any swearing at all in that post.

    I would like to emphasise the fact that I have not been swearing at anyone, so I do wish you would stop making such a claim against me! :mad:

    I don't like to swear. I consider it vulgar and unnecessary.

    People like him disgust me and I wonder why is he not getting banned.
    What on earth should I be banned for? Giving an opinion that is different to yours, I assume?

    Anyway, you seem very adept at ignoring all points of view but that of your own. Perhaps you might consider addressing some of the alternative points of view on this thread. Thank you.
    Last edited by crouchaldinho; 03-01-2010 at 17:35.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    To be honest Crouchy I think its worth us all just ignoring Tak and his 'opinions'. He hasn't offered any ideas of his own for this 'leap of faith' as we well know.

    His most recent post could be the funniest yet seeing as he has quite obviously, very unsubtly read up on the Ajax team of the 70s. He may as well have cut and pasted from wikipedia . I have very little time for his childish responses to you Crouchy. Whilst your response in the superkeeper thread may not have been that wise (as this one probably isn't from myself), it did highlight the generally deluded standard of posting he offers.

    Calling for you to get banned ffs

  74. #74
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Let's leave out the comments on other users posting style please. All it does is cause arguments. Anyone ignoring this warning, will be dealt with accordingly.

  75. #75
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Tactics need to be toned down a bit. Player intuition needs to be heavily buffed.

    Motivational skills need to be heavily revamped in a way that a player just wont become angry or unsettled by little team talks or heavily motivated in the same manner.

    In FM it is far too easy for a side to become unhappy and far too difficult to keep the dressing room happy and friendships formed and players bonding.

    It isn't totally wrong in it's current state, but it needs to be a little less aggressive with the way the game responds to certain events.

  76. #76
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    FM is already what you make it.

    If you decide that you will only access the creator settings, FM is a finely balanced simulation of tactical, motivational and strategic play. Using the creator ensures you cannot 'break' the ME or employ strategies the AI cannot cope with, meaning you have to successfully manage motivation and squad building issues to achieve. If you send out a poorly motivated team, you have to react quickly and introduce tactical solutions to limit the damage. If you send out a fantastically motivated team, you often don't have to do much in tactical terms. If you have the wrong players for the tactic you are trying to play, you will struggle. If you have balanced player ability with your tactical ideas you will do well. If you have lost the dressing room and/or morale is shot, you are in for a difficult season.

    Rejecting all the creator/match functionality can either make motivation and squad management more or less important. If you use the creator to design a single tactic which you use all the time, you will need to be a superb motivational and squad developer in order to succeed. Because you aren't doing tactical things the AI can't cope with, man and squad management are the only tools in your armoury and you need to become amazingly good at them. Get a team talk/press conference/management interaction wrong and your team might implode, with you powerless to stop the problems as you won't make any tactical changes. Consistently get them right and you'll do well.

    Reverting to the classic siders can make motivation and squad management next to irrelevant. Although the AI is far more sophisticated than it used to be, it is still possible to 'break' it (or at least seriously challenge it) with certain 'custom' settings. If you custom tweak your own settings to come up with a tactic that dominates the AI no matter how it plays, then it doesn't matter how motivated your players are or what players you have as you will always have a chance of winning through tactical manipulation alone. For people who reverted to the classic system as the creator tactics were too 'unstable', it is because you are not very good at motivation or squad management and thus must rely on designing micro-detailed tactics to gain a consistent advantage.

    Although in real life it is possible to be revolutionary in a tactical sense, it only ever gives you an advantage for a few seasons at most before other teams catch on and catch up, thus rendering your tactical innovation obsolete. Every 'revolutionary' tactical system that succeeded spawned imitators and/or opposites deliberately designed to counter the problems they posed. Winning titles through tactical innovation alone was/is possible, but only for a season or two. Greece's Euro win was, for example, built on a foundation of man-marking. Man-marking was a lost art, and when Greece re-introduced it, teams didn't know what to do against it, giving the Greeks just enough advantage to beat teams that, player for player, were superior. However, once the Euros finished, post-competition analysis levelled out the advantages of their system as everyone now knew what to expect and slowly worked it out. For the coming World Cup, it will be interesting to see if other teams follow the USA's tight-pressing defensive system against Spain's idiosyncratic narrow/possession game as it reduced their outlet balls and dried up their passing. If they do, Spain still have the players to overcome it, but the tactical questions it poses the Spanish system will require them to perform on the day every day.

    In FM, if you have such an innovative system, the AI never works it out, meaning you never need to worry about motivation and squad management issues. You know you will play well every time you send the team out. The AI will never catch on, so you may as well just keep on pressing continue. In my opinion, playing like this limits the potential enjoyment of the game, although I can appreciate the reasons for doing so. However, the arguments that extend from such a playing methodology are flawed. Tactics seem overly important and man/squad management less so, simply because of how you have constructed your tactic. You have manipulated numerous 20 point sliders into a 'perfect' combination that ensures success, which is impossible and unrealistic in the real world. Forgetting they exist and using creator settings only brings about a far more rounded and enjoyable simulation.

  77. #77
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    I'm still confused as to why my post was so laughable. Didn't it show you that what you are after is possible, backing up your argument?
    I have sometime now to answer that, apologies for the delay.

    My argument, dafuge, was never that it is impossible to succeed in FM if you do not constantly tweak tactics. Of course you can succeed by buying good players and doing little tactical work.

    What I'm saying is that this game is built around tactics, ignoring or being unable to cope with real management issues. I never bother with tactics even, my way of playing is very similar to yours. I just find good players for the certain roles and then trying not to upset them.

    So, of course you can ignore tactics, but does that change the fact that there are no real management features? No. All you can do if you don't want to become a tactical nerd in this game is:

    a) answer the same questions over and over again
    b) saying the same things over and over again
    c) hearing the same advice over and over again
    e) taking the same decisions over and over again

    Whoever said that the man and communication management features are good has really no ambition in life. The management side of the job is there, and I gave credit to SI for trying to put something in, but it is so shallow that it actually reduces the feel of realism. The management tools are:

    a) too few (team talks, press conferences, individual comments)
    b) very poor (repetitive, lifeless, dull, plastic, beige)

    The fact is that the higher you go to the football food chain the more you have to be a manager/leader than a tactician. Hell, you can even employee a tactician if you want, someone who read many books and can amuse you and, who knows, he might even say something clever. But, let us face the truth here, top managers are managers, they are not nerds.

    Someone mentioned a few football successes, two of which I talked about: Ajax and Greece. I argued that they were both based on leadership skills and psychology and that tactics were less important (not unimportant, mind you). What were the answers to that: Well, about Ajax I was told that I read wikipedia and about Greece that their success was based on the re-introduction of man-marking (?). In essence, I got no answers.

    The truth is, all great football successes were based more on man management than tactics. Naturally, at various points throughout football history, new tactics have stemmed from great teams. Years later, historians wrote books about those tactics and concluded that they were the makings of great teams. It is the same with many other stories both in sports and other aspects of life. Some historian puts what happened in a jar and draws conclusions.

    Anyway, I will try and make some propositions later (sadly, I am not a programmer but I will try to start a brainstorming session)

  78. #78
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    My argument, dafuge, was never that it is impossible to succeed in FM if you do not constantly tweak tactics. Of course you can succeed by buying good players and doing little tactical work.
    Fair enough, I think I was reading between the lines and came to the wrong conclusion that you were annoyed at how difficult the game is if you are not tactically astute. In my defence, we do get an awful lot of those types of threads here so you can't really blame me.

    Focussing on the 'other stuff' in management is something which FM will always need to do to move forward although it isn't always that easy, you've seen the reaction from a lot of people regarding the new press conference feature when it was introduced.

    If things are going to be added/changed, it needs to be in such a way that is enjoyable to play and realistic, I'm looking forward to reading your suggestions

  79. #79
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    For once I agree with tak, tho I know Crouchy doesn't agree

    Tactics do play too big a part in the game at the moment (possibly for the last few games actually), but what other way is there of doing it? Buying good players relative to the league and man managing them is something I have tried ad have had reasonable fun in doing so, but that doesnt nessercarily translate into success (winning leagues).

    In my opinion it should be possible to be successful by having an above average squad (but not great) and a reasonable tactic to be semi-successful and then use the man management to take it up a level. But for me this just isn't possible, I find I have to take advantage of the match engine short falls (in the case of one-on-one chances, or the so called "superkeepers" issue, thats playing much wider than I'd like) rather than a narrow,long ball tactic ala-Bolton/Stoke.

    I realise I'm all over the place in this post, that's my shortfall

  80. #80
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    First of all, I am curious to know your nationality Tak, if you don't mind me asking?

    Now, to respond to your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    The fact is that the higher you go to the football food chain the more you have to be a manager/leader than a tactician. Hell, you can even employee a tactician if you want, someone who read many books and can amuse you and, who knows, he might even say something clever. But, let us face the truth here, top managers are managers, they are not nerds.
    I think before you start talking about what is the 'truth', we need some evidence here. This is simply your opinion really, isn't it? What is it based on?

    A lot of evidence would seem to suggest that actually the top managers are great tacticians, as well as being good man managers and motivators.


    Someone mentioned a few football successes, two of which I talked about: Ajax and Greece. I argued that they were both based on leadership skills and psychology and that tactics were less important (not unimportant, mind you). What were the answers to that: Well, about Ajax I was told that I read wikipedia and about Greece that their success was based on the re-introduction of man-marking (?). In essence, I got no answers.
    I think you got a fairly good answer from WWFan regarding Greece actually. How can you dismiss his answer so readily?


    The truth is, all great football successes were based more on man management than tactics.
    There you go again with the 'truth' where this is just your opinion. Can we have some evidence of this? Could you explain how you have reached this conclusion?

    Can I also ask if you have ever read Inverting the Pyramid? Have you read any other tactical theory books or any football history books? Also, do you have any experience in football coaching or even football managing?


    Some historian puts what happened in a jar and draws conclusions.
    Just as you seem to be doing by dismissing tactical theory. Your just putting it into a different jar, aren't you?

    Can we really ignore what football historians, scholars and academics have to say? Can we really ignore what the top people in football, both in history and in the present, have to say?


    Anyway, I will try and make some propositions later (sadly, I am not a programmer but I will try to start a brainstorming session)
    I'm very interested to see what you come up with and I mean that very genuinely. I look forward to it.

    Just a few quick points regarding things like press conferences etc. before I finish this post. You mention about the repetitive nature of such things, well, as I wrote above, have you ever heard an interview with Rafa Benitez? The questions he is asked are all very similar and we could all quote his answers (e.g. 'we have kwality', 'we have confidence' and 'we concentrate only on the next game' etc.) without much prompting! This is an example of what I mean.

    Things like press conferences and team talks are necessarily repetitive. Of course, I wouldn't disagree with the idea that they need to continue to evolve and it's obvious that there is plenty of room for improvement. However, it is very important to be careful with these aspects of the game because new additions could become terribly dull very quickly. The plethora of meetings you were talking about - which seem to be your main contribution to this 'leap of faith' so far - could be potentially very boring for the gamer. Even more repetition would presumably be involved! I personally would hate to see tacky add-ons involving telephone calls, face-to-face meetings and so on.

    One thing I would like to see is the ability to directly communicate with your players. Right now, we must always go through the media, and I find that frustrating. It would have to be carefully managed but there are possibilities here that need to be explored in my opinion.

    I cannot agree with your assertion that 'football management is a bit about tactics and a lot about other things' though. I feel this is as wrong as claiming that tactics are the only important thing in football. I think that you might find Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid - mentioned very often on these forums - to be a most illuminating read and I would thoroughly recommend it given your negative stance regarding the tactical side of the game.
    Last edited by crouchaldinho; 04-01-2010 at 16:37.

  81. #81
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by djwilko6 View Post
    In my opinion it should be possible to be successful by having an above average squad (but not great) and a reasonable tactic to be semi-successful and then use the man management to take it up a level.
    I find this is how it works for me. Are you using creator tactics or classic tactics?

    Have a read of WWFan's post a few posts up where he talks about exactly this.

    But for me this just isn't possible, I find I have to take advantage of the match engine short falls (in the case of one-on-one chances, or the so called "superkeepers" issue, thats playing much wider than I'd like) rather than a narrow,long ball tactic ala-Bolton/Stoke.
    I wonder if this is a shortfall of the way that you are approaching the game, rather than a shortfall of the game itself. I often find that the people who make claims about the tactical side of the game are playing FM very much as if it is a game to be beaten. They look at how they can beat the match engine and the AI, instead of thinking about real life football. Reading your post, it seems that this is exactly what you are doing (e.g. looking for something to take advantage of the match engine).

    Similarly, I get the impression that Tak does the same things and I also get the impression that he does the same with the media side of the game. He talks about giving the same answers over and over again, and about making sure that he doesn't 'upset the players'. This is all very gamey. It's an attitude which seems to be saying, 'how can I beat the game?' rather than 'how can I win this football match?' if you understand my point.

    I have always approached FM by trying to apply real life football ideas to it. My tactics are based on what I see every Saturday when I attend a match and my man handling and motivation skills in the game are based on what I see going on in real life. I never try to 'beat' the game. I just try to win a few football matches and make some good decisions along the way.

    I can't help but wonder if WWFan's post actually shed more light on this whole thread than I realised at first. He talks about the different ways to play the game, and I definitely play FM as a simulation, rather than as if it is a game to be beaten by finding some perfect combination. I feel that this is where the main issues with tactics, motivation and man management may lie.
    Last edited by crouchaldinho; 04-01-2010 at 16:40.

  82. #82
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by crouchaldinho View Post
    One thing I would like to see is more ability to directly communicate with your players. Right now, we must always go through the media, and I find that frustrating. It would have to be carefully managed but there are possibilities here that need to be explored in my opinion.
    100% agree here, I always thought it strange that it goes through the media at all really.

    Another thing I wanted to mention is that team talks still need a lot of work. I realise this is about to possibly contradict what I said about tactics, but it is my opinion that they play more of a part than they should. For big occasions, yes maybe they should (taking Liverpool's CL win as a RL example there), but for more mundane games, I don't think the players should be AS influenced by a good team talk.

    What should happen is that everything together should result in a successful team. As a sort of grading scale what I think should happen is as follows, tho obviously it wouldnt be as simple as laid out, and with luck not included:

    Great players, better tactics = Team that will be challengeing for the title
    Great players, average tactics = Challengeing for a CL spot, should struggle more against teams with the great players.
    Average players, better tactics = Midtable/Europa spot.
    Average players, average tactics = Midtable/relegation

    I'll be happy to answer any combination and where I think they should finish.

  83. #83
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by crouchaldinho View Post
    I find this is how it works for me. Are you using creator tactics or classic tactics?

    Have a read of WWFan's post a few posts up where he talks about exactly this.
    I've tried both, I found it easier with the creator tho.

    Quote Originally Posted by crouchaldinho View Post

    I wonder if this is a shortfall of the way that you are approaching the game, rather than a shortfall of the game itself. I often find that the people who make claims about the tactical side of the game are playing FM very much as if it is a game to be beaten. They look at how they can beat the match engine and the AI, instead of thinking about real life football. Reading your post, it seems that this is exactly what you are doing (e.g. looking for something to take advantage of the match engine).

    Similarly, I get the impression that Tak does the same things and I also get the impression that he does the same with the media side of the game. He talks about giving the same answers over and over again, and about making sure that he doesn't 'upset the players'. This is all very gamey. It's an attitude which seems to be saying, 'how can I beat the game?' rather than 'how can I win this football match?' if you understand my point.
    I'm not denying that fact, it very could be my own shortfall.

    However I don't play to "beat the game", tho winning is always fun , I try to put into practise what I see on the pitch (I don't go to real life games tho) but if I can't get it to work aswell as I'd like I'll look for the weaknesses in the match engine. Most certainy that is my own shortfalls, but it could also be that I don't have the tools to put across what I'd like in the game.

    Just as quick and easy example, I had reasonable success in get an Arsenal-like system working with short, quick, counter-attacking football. But what I really wanted is a way to get the 4 forward players in my 4-1-1-3-1 interchanging, but I just couldnt work it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by crouchaldinho View Post
    I have always approached FM by trying to apply real life football ideas to it. My tactics are based on what I see every Saturday when I attend a match and my man handling and motivation skills in the game are based on what I see going on in real life. I never try to 'beat' the game. I just try to win a few football matches and make some good decisions along the way.

    I can't help but wonder if WWFan's post actually shed more light on this whole thread than I realised at first. He talks about the different ways to play the game, and I definitely play FM as a simulation, rather than as if it is a game to be beaten by finding some perfect combination. I feel that this is where the main issues with tactics, motivation and man management may lie.
    Perhaps this is true (I was writing my previous reply while you were writing this) and I have also thought that maybe posts on this forum have influenced my views on the motivation side of things, but I'm not usually that easily swayed and I'd have had to see something in game to help me understand where the OP's are coming from. Perhaps I was looking too hard for a link.

  84. #84
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by djwilko6 View Post
    Just as quick and easy example, I had reasonable success in get an Arsenal-like system working with short, quick, counter-attacking football. But what I really wanted is a way to get the 4 forward players in my 4-1-1-3-1 interchanging, but I just couldnt work it out.
    Bit off topic but have you tried increasing 'creativity' and increasing 'roaming from position' in the tactics creator? Also go to the advanced mode and use the 'swap' command to get two, or perhaps even all three players, to swap position. I like having the outer players on the wings swapping so that sometimes they cut inside, and other times they play as a true winger. Furthermore, using a deep-lying forward, or a complete forward on support, will get him dropping into space, and then try using an attacking midfielder on an attack duty behind him, who will push on. You should then see some pretty dynamic and fluid movement from the front four, with them all on a free reign to do what they want (high creativity), all of them roaming (roam from position) and some of them swapping positions too.

    Drop into the tactics forum and ask for more advice if you're still struggling, as there are plenty of people willing to give their opinions.
    Last edited by crouchaldinho; 04-01-2010 at 16:59.

  85. #85
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by crouchaldinho View Post
    Bit off topic but have you tried increasing 'creativity' and increasing 'roaming from position' in the tactics creator? Also go to the advanced mode and use the 'swap' command to get two, or perhaps even all three players, to swap position. I like having the outer players on the wings swapping so that sometimes they cut inside, and other times they play as a true winger. Furthermore, using a deep-lying forward, or a complete forward on support, will get him dropping into space, and then try using an attacking midfielder on an attack duty behind him, who will push on. You should then see some pretty dynamic and fluid movement from the front four, with them all on a free reign to do what they want (high creativity), all of them roaming (roam from position) and some of them swapping positions too.

    Drop into the tactics forum and ask for more advice if you're still struggling, as there are plenty of people willing to give their opinions.
    If I remember right the creative freedom was already high due to the type of player I chose them to be. For the swap position I had the RW swap with the ST, the LW swap with the AMC, the AMC to swap with the RW and the ST to swap with the AMC. Perhaps I was thinking about it too much in that respect, and I will give your idea's about deep-lying a try when I can get back into the save, currently playing a game with Livingston and one as Eastleigh.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I'll find some time to answer other issues, crouch, but just a quick one about Greece (as my geneaology is partly Greek, to answer your question about nationality):

    I watched all games more than once, and not just the ones after group stage. Greece's success is a monument of man management and psychology. One of the tactical tools that were used was probably man-marking. To hear that Greece's opponents didn't know what to do against man-marking, and that was the reason Greece conquered the champonship, is just very poor, I think you'll agree, and it was only written because wwfan was desperately looking for a tacical explanation of this success.

    The fact that even the great man himself could not come up with a plausible tactical reason is very satisfying.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I think it is sad that a very good thread has turned into what seems to be a cussing match. I think this is due to the inability of Tak to realise that this is debate. Please try to consider other people's points which they have thought out well and have put the time and effort into putting forward. I think that it would also be a mistake to reduce the importance of tactics in this game. Mostly because I think that Tak is over estimating the importance of the tactics already in the game. Sure it is important, but, especially in FM 2010, there are other factors that affect this (e.g. moral, general form, media interaction, team talk etc.)It is also a mistake to say that tactics aren't important for a real life football manager. I cannot understand why you would say tactics aren't important. Succesfull tactics=succesful team, and unsuccesful tactics=unsuccesful team. However, it is not the overrall tactics that is the most important, but the individual tactics. And that is what I think needs to be improved in FM.
    Firstly I think there needs to be more options for player instructions. There are already good options, but I think that there is definite room for improvement. I think also the player traits can be developed a lot further (the Aaron Lennon example that has already been mentioned,) and the manager should have a much greater say on how his player plays. Revamping the training system could also help this, (though I think that is something that everyone will agree on,) by adding training for certain set piece combinations. I would love to be able to devise set pieces for my players and seem them put it into action. I'm not so sure how this would be integrated into the system, but it would be a very good option to have if anyone from SI is looking at this. Also perhaps you should be able to train players more specifically, for example intensive training one-on-one's or deep crossing or cutting inside etc.
    And please Tak could you not resort to insulting those who have put down perfectly valid and well-thought out points. It is frankly childish, and only succeeds in making you look foolish. And don't take this as a personal shot at you. It isn't.
    Last edited by Matt123456; 04-01-2010 at 18:40.

  88. #88
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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    Someone mentioned a few football successes, two of which I talked about: Ajax and Greece. I argued that they were both based on leadership skills and psychology and that tactics were less important (not unimportant, mind you). What were the answers to that: Well, about Ajax I was told that I read wikipedia and about Greece that their success was based on the re-introduction of man-marking (?). In essence, I got no answers.
    You are just rambling now. You got a great answer from WWFan regarding that Greek side.

    Anyway, I will try and make some propositions later (sadly, I am not a programmer but I will try to start a brainstorming session)
    That would be nice. You don't need to be a programmer to at least provide one idea for your 'leap of faith'. Any danger?

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    I'll find some time to answer other issues, crouch, but just a quick one about Greece (as my geneaology is partly Greek, to answer your question about nationality):

    I watched all games more than once, and not just the ones after group stage. Greece's success is a monument of man management and psychology. One of the tactical tools that were used was probably man-marking. To hear that Greece's opponents didn't know what to do against man-marking, and that was the reason Greece conquered the champonship, is just very poor, I think you'll agree, and it was only written because wwfan was desperately looking for a tacical explanation of this success.

    The fact that even the great man himself could not come up with a plausible tactical reason is very satisfying.
    I'm not returning to this topic as I can't actually read any more of your incessant drivel. You are an incredibly ignorant poster.
    Last edited by iacovone; 04-01-2010 at 20:12.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by tak View Post
    I'll find some time to answer other issues, crouch, but just a quick one about Greece (as my geneaology is partly Greek, to answer your question about nationality):

    I watched all games more than once, and not just the ones after group stage. Greece's success is a monument of man management and psychology. One of the tactical tools that were used was probably man-marking. To hear that Greece's opponents didn't know what to do against man-marking, and that was the reason Greece conquered the champonship, is just very poor, I think you'll agree, and it was only written because wwfan was desperately looking for a tacical explanation of this success.

    The fact that even the great man himself could not come up with a plausible tactical reason is very satisfying.

    There's been a huge amount written about how and why Greece won the Euros, with the re-introduction of man-marking receiving much focus. I have no doubt pride, commitment and
    good motivational management also contributed, but to determine Greece won the Euros just because they were the most motivated team is massively assumptive. Firstly, how can you quantify how much more motivated Greece were than any other European side? Secondly, how much more motivated do they need to be in order to turn inferior players into quality results? It's impossible to do so and hugely dismissive of the levels of motivation and man-management skills of other national managers.

    Greece won because they played in a manner that asked serious questions of other teams to which they had no answer. They man marked and pressed aggressively, which had both fallen out of favour in the continental game. Nobody had the answers to the questions they posed, allowing their players to gain in confidence of themselves and the system, and ultimately overachieve.

    If you wish to take this discussion into theories of motivation and man-management instead of tactical, I am a management researcher by occupation and would be happy to discuss concepts of charismatic leadership and self-efficacy, as both (alongside other motivational concepts) have influence on performance. However, performance is never just other or self-motivated. It is always steeped in practice, which feeds back into theoretical development, which then loops back into practice. In football terms, the practice is the technical training and actual match play, with the theory the tactical efforts to improve the collective abilities of the players on match days. Good man management just better enables the transmission of theory into practice, providing employees with the motivation and confidence to try and succeed at new things and ideas and to improve performance at practices they already know.
    Last edited by wwfan; 04-01-2010 at 21:37.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I personnally think that tactics play a huge part in real life football. Just look at Hull City last year. In the first half (maybe the first 1/3) of the season we employed a 442 with quick wingers and an AMC that quickly moved into a 5 man attack when we had the ball. We passed the ball around and made space to go forward. Things went downhill for City when Marlon King was dropped (for legitimate reasons), and we changed to a 451 for the rest of the season. This formation, and the long ball tactics that came with it were the downfall of City.
    I agree that man management and motivation are important in football, but in the second half of last season you could see that the players were clearly motivated, and putting in plenty of effort, but they were fighting a losing battle as the tactics didn't suit the team.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    There's been a huge amount written about how and why Greece won the Euros, with the re-introduction of man-marking receiving much focus. I have no doubt pride, commitment and
    good motivational management also contributed, but to determine Greece won the Euros just because they were the most motivated team is massively assumptive. Firstly, how can you quantify how much more motivated Greece were than any other European side? Secondly, how much more motivated do they need to be in order to turn inferior players into quality results? It's impossible to do so and hugely dismissive of the levels of motivation and man-management skills of other national managers.

    Greece won because they played in a manner that asked serious questions of other teams to which they had no answer. They man marked and pressed aggressively, which had both fallen out of favour in the continental game. Nobody had the answers to the questions they posed, allowing their players to gain in confidence of themselves and the system, and ultimately overachieve.

    If you wish to take this discussion into theories of motivation and man-management instead of tactical, I am a management researcher by occupation and would be happy to discuss concepts of charismatic leadership and self-efficacy, as both (alongside other motivational concepts) have influence on performance. However, performance is never just other or self-motivated. It is always steeped in practice, which feeds back into theoretical development, which then loops back into practice. In football terms, the practice is the technical training and actual match play, with the theory the tactical efforts to improve the collective abilities of the players on match days. Good man management just better enables the transmission of theory into practice, providing employees with the motivation and confidence to try and succeed at new things and ideas and to improve performance at practices they already know.
    Studies have shown that Greece showed 740KPa of motivation compared to an average of 265Kpa between the other teams. No, I'm kidding, I can't quantify how much more motivated Greece was, although it is proven that in order to beat a superior opponent, a team has to be 17% more motivated. I'm joking again.

    Excuse the poor humorous attempts but I am asked some very strange questions.

    And then, we have the strange notion that aggresive pressing and man management had fallen out of favour. Pressing definately hadn't. Man marking is used less than it used to, but it is still used, especially in lower levels (for example when the opponent has a very talented midfielder and your team is not so great in safeguarding space). As a matter of fact, most teams of lesser quality will use a man mark or two when they face a more talented opponent. In many ways, it was a natural choice for Otto. Did Greece's opponents "not know what to do against man-marking"? Are we seriously discussing that now? Had Greece's opponents never played football in their lives? I mean, come on lads. They didn't equip themselves with swords and shields and formed a phalanx. They played some man-marking when it was needed. In a while we are going to hear that if you man mark a few players the other team are having heart attacks.

    I would like to clarify something else though: I never said that tactics play zero role. They do not. I said, firstly, that the higher you go in the world of football the less important they become and, secondly, that tactics take a disproportionally big part of the FM pie. Mainly because the psychology of man management is hugely underdeveloped in the game. Since people relationships, their formations and effects are extremely difficult to simulate in software, I said it would be a leap of faith that one would need to take in order to achieve such a simulation.

    "If you wish to take this discussion into theories of motivation and man-management instead of tactical, I am a management researcher by occupation and would be happy to discuss concepts of charismatic leadership and self-efficacy, as both (alongside other motivational concepts) have influence on performance." I would very very much like to discuss those issues. That is why I started this conversation, I guess. Since you work with theories of motivation and I practice management (not football though) it will be a very interesting discussion.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I kind of understand where tak is coming from in this subject but I beleive his viewpoint is a bit skewed (This isn't an attack tak just an observation).

    It's all very well in saying the game should have more focus on the motivational, man management aspect rather than focus on tactics but in reality in making it into a game is a lot difficult than it sounds. Now I have no experience coding games (I've known ppl who do) and 23 years experiance of playing them and tbf the current tech doesn't really allow it in the way tek is describing what he wants to see. In fact he hasn't really described what kind of things he would like to see.

    If I'm right in thinking you'd rather be able to have more say on players and their attitude, how they behave in a match, how they interact with the manager, with other players, how they're thinking and feeling, that type of thing. This isn't something you can just put into a database and have a computer at 2GHZ to be able to calculate.

    afaik AI programs atm tend to run off of large databases with some procedual gerneration thrown in and are not very sophisticated in terms of interaction. I.E Black and White To have the type of interaction your looking for would require a super fast computer and even then the results wouldn't be spectacular.

    Where as I do agree that it would be beneficial to the game to have something like this the practicality of it atm is just not viable and yes I know you do managerial for a living but let the real experts that are the coding staff do what they can within the limitations that are put in place as it's hardly their fault. Work is only as good as the tools your given.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Don't get me wrong Tez, I am not trying to tell the boys who do code how to do their job. If it is not possible, then fair enough.

    I am just trying to get something more real.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I would like to clarify something else though: I never said that tactics play zero role. They do not. I said, firstly, that the higher you go in the world of football the less important they become
    i could not disagree more with this statement, we only have to look at the England football team and some of managers we have had.

    Kevin Keegan, fantastic motivator and i would guess a good to very good man manager but was average at best when it came to the tactical side of things, if i remember right when he left the position of England manager he actually went on record of saying he was not tactically good enough at that level.

    Sven, Personally i would say an average motivator but good man manager, tactically ok better than Keegan but never had a plan B. most international managers knew how we would be setup and knew exactly how to counter and nullify his tactics, i even remember Leo Beenhakker who was managing Trinidad and Tobago in the 2006 world cup saying in a press conference that he knew what the England team would be and knew exactly how we would play. If you watched that game then you would have seen a team with very very good tactics playing a team who had A tactics of sorts, and England were out played and lucky.

    Steve Mcclaren, awful in everything and so were England.

    Fabio Capello, personally i would say he is a good motivator, and good man manager but he is regarded an a very good tactician with in the game, probably the best we have played since Glenn Hoddle was in charge, who was not the best man manager at times if reports are to be believed (that i remember reading in the papers) but was very good tactically.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I think one of the main problems SI face is the amount that a manager on his own can achieve. While they get the blame, much of the success is down to pre-existing and external situations. In a manager game, the influence of a manager clearly has to be exaggerated, hence much of the tactical focus.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    I personally understand that and from the two threads that I've seen you post in I can see you making that point. Unfortunally such is life that not everyone sees it from the same point of view and are more defensive than they need to be. As from these two threads not one person has said in certain terms that I see your point but it can't be done. (Again not attacking anyone just a general observation as I have read through both threads) It's a damm shame it can't really be done (well it can just not well wouldn't want to see a cross of FM and Fifa Football Maanger now would we) as the prospect of having proper control in the game would give me great pleasure and hours of fun. Yes I'm a control freak, but ain't we all). Hell I'd love to see more interation in the Sims 3, More options and ways to buil citys it sim city games. More larger life like FPS but this is about 10 years away from becoming reality. So Tak don't give up that fsith cos some day your dream will be reality.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    Quote Originally Posted by InterWolf View Post
    I think one of the main problems SI face is the amount that a manager on his own can achieve. While they get the blame, much of the success is down to pre-existing and external situations. In a manager game, the influence of a manager clearly has to be exaggerated, hence much of the tactical focus.
    Wow. This is actually a brilliant post...
    Last edited by tak; 05-01-2010 at 00:48.

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    No, this is a brilliant post. One of the best I've seen on here. And again you've dismissed it. Are you really so close-minded to not be able to understand what is being said here?

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    There's been a huge amount written about how and why Greece won the Euros, with the re-introduction of man-marking receiving much focus. I have no doubt pride, commitment and
    good motivational management also contributed, but to determine Greece won the Euros just because they were the most motivated team is massively assumptive. Firstly, how can you quantify how much more motivated Greece were than any other European side? Secondly, how much more motivated do they need to be in order to turn inferior players into quality results? It's impossible to do so and hugely dismissive of the levels of motivation and man-management skills of other national managers.

    Greece won because they played in a manner that asked serious questions of other teams to which they had no answer. They man marked and pressed aggressively, which had both fallen out of favour in the continental game. Nobody had the answers to the questions they posed, allowing their players to gain in confidence of themselves and the system, and ultimately overachieve.

    If you wish to take this discussion into theories of motivation and man-management instead of tactical, I am a management researcher by occupation and would be happy to discuss concepts of charismatic leadership and self-efficacy, as both (alongside other motivational concepts) have influence on performance. However, performance is never just other or self-motivated. It is always steeped in practice, which feeds back into theoretical development, which then loops back into practice. In football terms, the practice is the technical training and actual match play, with the theory the tactical efforts to improve the collective abilities of the players on match days. Good man management just better enables the transmission of theory into practice, providing employees with the motivation and confidence to try and succeed at new things and ideas and to improve performance at practices they already know.
    I know I said I'd leave the thread but I can't. Tak you said:

    I never said that tactics play zero role. They do not. I said, firstly, that the higher you go in the world of football the less important they become
    Explain how this can be possible. In my opinion you have it completely the wrong way round.

    Poor players at a lower standard are in that lower standard partly because they are tactically inept. They lack the footballing intelligence to be able to adapt and enact tactical instructions. At this level therefore, the motivational managers have the advantage as this becomes the difference. The VAST majority of lower league clubs in England simply adopt a 4-4-2, put players in at and shout at them until they are fired up enough to go out and kick the other team about and battle to a victory.

    At the highest level, teams and managers have similar backroom teams of advice, equipment, facilities, etc. Managerial motivation at this level is secondary. It is here, when you have teams of top level players capable of adopting and sticking to tactical instructions that tactics are at their most important. Tactical discipline and understanding are the gamebreakers here. The line is so fine here that one lapse will cost you a goal. No amount of motivational speaking will amend this. I don't think this can be denied (though I'm sure you'll find a way of avoiding the issues I've posed)

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    Default Re: It's time for a leap of faith

    There are a few reasons why tactics are more important in the lower levels. Like you said, players there are less capable (technicaly, psysicaly, fitness wise etc.) It is therefore necessary that the manager

    a) spends more time explaining and teaching tactics
    b) spends more time working with tactics that will exploit those limited capabilities to the maximum

    As a matter of fact, the worse players a manager has at his disposal, the more he has to work on his tactics.

    However, at the higher level we meet very good players. The manager can just throw a talented player into the pitch, with minimal instructions, and sit back to watch (a bit of an exaggeration but you get the point). Of course, we all always learn and those players do not by all means know everything, but they definately don't need the tactical guidance that lesser players need.

    There are other things that happen in higher levels though, many of them come externally as InterWolf brilliantly pointed out. Players are very popular, they earn huge amounts of money, they have shrewd agends, negotiate massive advertising contracts, get photographed wherever they go, marry models and buy sportscars.

    Do you really think that managing those players, you basically need to be a tactical genius? No, it is a lot more than that and it takes the strongest of characters to make those super star players form a team. Tactics at this level are important but certainly secondary.

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