FM 09 - Newcastle United

As FM always aims towards realism - i can't help but wonder how this will effect Newcastle Utd in FM 09?

The current transfer statagy at the club sees Dennis Wise hold control over new signings and who gets sold.

The manager has absolutly no input on either. He doesn't even put a list of potencial players forward as it has been well documented this week Wise choses the players and the Manager is stuck with them.

Keegan tried to force the club to change this policy and gaive him more power on transfers, which was rejected.

So it is fairly clear that the current set up will continue whoever is the manager.

Will FM 09 reflect that?

Will SI continue to follow realism or ignore it in this instance?

Don't you know alot of clubs in Europe (i.e Real Madrid) have operated like this for years?

Don't you know alot of clubs in Europe (i.e Real Madrid) have operated like this for years?

Yes, i do know that, but it doesn't answer my question.

Will FM09 reflect that?

Well we do not knwo for certain that Newcastle have been dealing in exactly this way, I am pretty sure Collocini and Guterez were Keegans Ideas, but not those in the last week.

Why didnt Abu Dabi buy Newcastle would have been cooler than city

FM shoudl never remove transfers from the manager thats half the fun gone!

There's making a game realistic and then theres making a game unplayable because of realism. I'm all for the realism argument most of the time, but fun has to outwiegh realism overall.

It would ruin the game for a lot of users, the current system of chairman interference has already come under a lot of criticism so enhancing it could be awful. Keep it the way it is, but make sure it works properly IMO.

As FM always aims towards realism - i can't help but wonder how this will effect Newcastle Utd in FM 09?

The current transfer statagy at the club sees Dennis Wise hold control over new signings and who gets sold. The manager has absolutly no input on either. He doesn't even put a list of potencial players forward as it has been well documented this week Wise choses the players and the Manager is stuck with them.

Where was this documented. I've been watching the coverage of Keegan's departure on Setanta but must have missed this.

Ive not seen it documented that KK had no imput whatsoever.

This being the much vaunted "Modern European System" it has been around for a while without being in FM and I don't think it ever should be either. The line between realism and a game has to stop somewhere and that is where as far as I'm concerned. Admittedly, if regens were better then I would attempt what I always attempt, which is to bring players through my own youth system and stick two fingers up to the goblin of a technical director who wastes the club's money on players I don't want, but still I think this would add realism to the game, but take away far too much of the fun element for very little gain in terms of game enjoyment.

it would add realism and it would also make you think about the job.

i.e your looking for a new job and get 2 offers. one from newcastle and one from say aston villa.

the newcastle job description, where it offers you yours wages and stuff could actually say something like:

your job requirement is to manage the team and all transfer dealings will be handled by 'other staff'.

this would then force you to make a decision. do i go to aston villa for freedom, or do i go to newcastle to just do my job and in a way have good plays bought for me because of the money avaible.

and to make it even better, this could be an option that could be turned on or off, so for people wanting the added realism can have it

Ive not seen it documented that KK had no imput whatsoever.

It was in his own statement...

"It's my opinion that a manager must have the right to manage and that clubs should not impose upon any manager any player that he does not want. "

I agree it is wrong to take that away from the manager but that is exactly what they did.

I had a post on this in the Newcastle United data issues which was pretty much the same question.

This would be realistic , however it would be the same for a lot of clubs , such as : Newcastle , Westham and a lot of European clubs e.g Real Madrid , Barcelona ....

It would make managing these teams unenjoybale IMO

This would be realistic , however it would be the same for a lot of clubs , such as : Newcastle , Westham and a lot of European clubs e.g Real Madrid , Barcelona ....

It would make managing these teams unenjoybale IMO

European teams regularly use Coaches rather than Managers, but does FM reflect this? Having not managed Euro teams i don't no although i doubt it.

The West Ham situation was different to Newcastle. The West Ham board sold the players due to finacial reasons something which could happen in FM08.

However with Newcastle it was not so much finacial reasons but the clubs policy.

Denis Wise and his teams of scouts choose which players to buy and the manager has no input.

Whether we agree or disagree it is real life. Will SI implement it?

Hopefully not

and to make it even better, this could be an option that could be turned on or off, so for people wanting the added realism can have it

I know where you're coming from, but at this rate of suggestions that include an on/off button we're going to have to go through 50 pages of settings before we even start a game, selecting what areas of the game we do or don't want switched on. I don't want to have to do that and for a feature to even be considered I think a majority of users should want it included, I just don't think a majority of users would take the realism over fun argument seriously.

If they did who in their right mind would want to manage Newcastle United ever again with Dennis freakin Wise signing all the players?! I'd rather get my Mum involved in signing players if I can't do it myself!

Don't you know alot of clubs in Europe (i.e Real Madrid) have operated like this for years?

All clubs in Germany are working like this. I actually think the British isles are the only place where the "manager" is in charge both of the team and transfers normally.

There is a manager who is not in charge of anything but economics and a head coach who iss in charge of training, selection and tactics. The head coach can express wishes but that's all he can do.

Realism is sacrificed for fun in this aspect since there are leagues outside of England playable. And this is how it should be kept. No change in scope please just because an English club might now have adopted the continental hierarchy.

There is a big difference though between a system were someone other than the manager just buys players and says "This is who you are getting whether you want him or not" and a system where the manager gives a list of transfer targets to someone who handles financial stuff and then that person goes and tries to do the deals. The latter is acceptable if implemented correctly, the former would cause as much outrage amongst FM players as there currently is up here in Newcastle!

Realism is sacrificed for fun in this aspect since there are leagues outside of England playable. And this is how it should be kept. No change in scope please just because an English club might now have adopted the continental hierarchy.

Agree 100% with this - I personally wouldn't want to manage a club where I couldn't chose which players to buy, are there many people who would?

Agree 100% with this - I personally wouldn't want to manage a club where I couldn't chose which players to buy, are there many people who would?

I agree with these replays 100% which makes you think...

Which real manager will accept the job under these terms?

There is a big difference though between a system were someone other than the manager just buys players and says "This is who you are getting whether you want him or not" and a system where the manager gives a list of transfer targets to someone who handles financial stuff and then that person goes and tries to do the deals. The latter is acceptable if implemented correctly, the former would cause as much outrage amongst FM players as there currently is up here in Newcastle!

Correct. Ideally of course the manager should cooperate well with the head coach. Otherwise success gets unlikely.

Anyway a head coach's job will be in danger if his boss, the manager, disagrees with his assessment of players (thus with his knowledge of football) or vice versa, the head coach might not to waste his time at a club where he can't work the way he wants to.

That doesn't change however that the power structure in continental Europe puts the transfer responsibility on the manager (while the head coach will still be held responsible when he got the players he wanted).

the game should be a place where you can run away from your club's problems in real life and play for fun. As a Newcastle supporter I would not want to deal with the same problems in the game, where's the fun in that ?! what's the purpose ? it's bad enough that I have to melt my brain searching for the perfect tactic and for good players, i really don't want to deal with other problems. the game will be too realistic wich is bad and it will ruin the fun.

I also do not like these takeovers (in real life and in FM) by some rich owner who knows nothing about football and will not let the manager do his job. what happened to the loialty ? in 5-10 years managers will not be at the same club for more than 1 or 2 seasons. it's disgusting, FM should not incorporate these features.

what's next ? match fixing ?

This is sort of already in the game, (albeit in a toned down way), by way of interfeering chairmen who purchase their own players without your consent.

It's in now.

I suppose that if there was a club in real life, like Real madrid for example, whose manager deals with the selection of the squad and the training of the players and the tactics and style of the play, but didn't get any input into the players that were to be purchased, (I'm sure they get some input don't they), then I would like to see FM reflect that. If you want to manage a club like West Ham or Newcastle or Spurs, then you would have to put up with interfeering chairmen.

As I've commented elsewhere recently,I quite like the fact that chairmen interfere, (buying/selling players without my say so), but I really really really really really really want to be able to give them an ultimatum that if they follow through with the current deal then I will resign.

It can act in exactly the same way the current ultimatum feature works, ie they show you the door, (lol), but I would like it to be introduced for this sort of instance.

This then could be a feature of a takeover at board level. What plans do the new board have. Will they be going the Continental route or do they have enough confidence in you that they will let you control things.

I think this is a good idea and is the way forward in the long term.

I do however acknowledge that this will not be to everyone's liking and I would suggest that this feature be something that should be able to be "activated/deactivated" in the setting at the beginning of a game.

Just happened to be an article on this subject today -

http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/blogs/sw48.html

There should be a hidden "Board lunacy" stat. Newcastle would of course get a 20.

The problem with the NEwcatsle thing is everything isnt known, its not known if KK had given a list of player and positions and he wantd the positions filling etc etc.

Its something i think that should be looked at and as Jimbo says in a way its already in the game. If it were to be implimented further then id be ok with that but it would have to be done properly.

Example being (and its not in depth of course)

As the Coach you know what positions you need filling, and to an extent what players you want. So you give your Director of Football your wishlist so to say.

(Using Newcastle as an example)

Left Backs - Bridge, Shorey, Bale as your first choices because they are British, then maybe some foreign choices like Marcelo, Lahm and Elmer. You give them ratings out of which you would like in decending order.

Creative midfielder - De Guzman, Kroos, Modric etc etc again giving them a rating for which you want most decending.

The DOF (director of football) would then come back to you and update you how things were going, might say Bridge is too costly, Lahm isnt intrested. And then if they cant afford any or none are intrested come back to you and ask for some more choices. If none of the other choices are available then the Dof uses the AI and signs someone. and comes back saying something along the lines of....

None of the targets were available, etc etc but because of the urgency of which you wanted a left back we have signed Leighton Baines for a fee of, on a contract of...etc

It would be a change slightly on the interfearing chairman, on a realistic scale imho.

Or "None of the targets were available because we didn't like them so we didn't try very hard to get them and instead decided to tempt Julian Dicks back out of retirement for you"

They won't change it. I'd bet really money that the Newcastle manager (FM gamer) will have the same say as elsewhere in the game, otherwise SI lose pretty much all the Newcastle fans' money. Besides, that's what makes FM FM. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a bit of realism. After all, who'd want to play it without that control?

It's just that Ashley will have a higher "interference" stat and will sell your best players for smaller amounts than you would like... same at West Ham. There will probably be a takeover a couple of years into the game, though.

Of course they wont change it for FM09, because its too late to change it. But there is no hard in throwing ideas about seeing if its something that could be put on the wishlist for fm2010!

Besides, that's what makes FM FM. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a bit of realism. After all, who'd want to play it without that control?

Exactly :-)

within 3 seasons or so all the clubs in EPL are going to be run like this as they are in europe so it should come into FM at some point. When this happens we should get to give DOF/board a list and you see who they manage to sign for you. I think this could be workable but tactics/training would have to be alot more in depth to compensate for it which they could be at present i think.

within 3 seasons or so all the clubs in EPL are going to be run like this as they are in europe so it should come into FM at some point.

They said the same about things like players buying out contracts and how it was going to go mad, it didn't happen. Even Bosman ruling didn't have quite the impact everyone thought it would.

yeh but most are run like this already if you listen to the manages in interviews all have to at least have some contact with the board about players they want to sign. in FM you get some money all do what you want with it really where IRL this dosent happen even now when we have managers who manage still. M Hughes said as much the other day that nothing much would change in the fact that he hands a list to the board and lets them try get the players he wants.

Comby,

That's completey different to the Newcastle situation though. Yes you're right managers and chairmen discuss the signings IRL, but at Newcastle Keegan had no say whatsoever, he was just told we've signed this guy and you're going to play him.

I like the comment made by Powlay, that would be a great addition and it wouldn't detract from your fun in the game. If anything it would make it more challenging without having to get you totally worked up over unwanted signings.

It's just that Ashley will have a higher "interference" stat and will sell your best players for smaller amounts than you would like... same at West Ham. There will probably be a takeover a couple of years into the game, though.

Not Kevin Keegan!

well from what you hear at work and things and i work in newcastle is that Keegan has walked out 3-4 times already because he didn't get on with the board so in these meetings what were they talking about?? i just can't see that it was all wise/board who made sigings. So to stick to the topic i would think at clubs where you have DOF like newcastle you should create a shortlist then pass it onto board.

within 3 seasons or so all the clubs in EPL are going to be run like this as they are in europe so it should come into FM at some point. When this happens we should get to give DOF/board a list and you see who they manage to sign for you. I think this could be workable but tactics/training would have to be alot more in depth to compensate for it which they could be at present i think.

Not a chance in hell of the likes of Harry Redknapp, Sir Alex, Arsene Wenger or some of the other managers of current Premiership clubs, EVER allowing someone else control over who does and doesn't come to the club.

That statement is just (it's honestly hard to describe it in a way that won't offend), wrong/

well from what you hear at work and things and i work in newcastle is that Keegan has walked out 3-4 times already because he didn't get on with the board so in these meetings what were they talking about?? i just can't see that it was all wise/board who made sigings. So to stick to the topic i would think at clubs where you have DOF like newcastle you should create a shortlist then pass it onto board.

That sounds great, but wasn't Keegans problem that they signed 2 players on transfer day that he had never heard of. (probably a slight exaggeration on his part).

So to stick to the topic i would think at clubs where you have DOF like newcastle you should create a shortlist then pass it onto board.

In other words the transfer module should be removed when we manage teams with DOF's. Do you honestly think that wouldn't affect gameplay? I think a majority of people would be dead set against that, fun over realism every time.

That sounds great, but wasn't Keegans problem that they signed 2 players on transfer day that he had never heard of. (probably a slight exaggeration on his part).

That was the main problem, KK didn't get the luxury of putting in lists.

he did put lists in jonas and the dc can't spell it were both players he asked for and a can't believe he hadn't heard of the two they signed deadline day! think it was more selling players that broke the back.

i didn't say take out transfer module but you are still looking for the players you want and scouting them only with the DOF you would have to find 2/3 so if the 1st target couldn't be signed the board will go after the next target. i can't see that effecting much apart from your not phyiscally putting the offer in

i didn't say take out transfer module but you are still looking for the players you want and scouting them only with the DOF you would have to find 2/3 so if the 1st target couldn't be signed the board will go after the next target. i can't see that effecting much apart from your not phyiscally putting the offer in

That's got nothing to do with the current finance system though, basically you're describing scouting and shortlisting, but jazzed up a bit. There would be no negotiations on your part whatsoever, no negotiation of fee or wages.

Thinking about it another problem is fees. You give your chairman a list and you have a budget of £10m, he spends £8m on one of the players on your list and you would never have spent that much, but you've ruined your budget by removing control from the user.

Board having total control could have it's advantages though espicially in FM. If you had an ambitious board and they simply said "right we've signed Ronaldo, lets see what you do with him". Because transfers in FM08 was frustrating.

A few seasons in one game i started bidding for Berbatov at £13m. It was rejected. £15m ditto same for every few million upto £25m.

I didn't have any more budget than £25m so i made an enquiry for how much they wanted. A deal for £11m went through!

That was the main problem, KK didn't get the luxury of putting in lists.

Prove it?....

Prove it?....

Prove he didn't.... The fact that he resigned stating that players were brought he without his input, is that enough proof?

Maybe they could add the football director dynamics to the game. for ex. in Inter Mourinho says he wants this kind of player and the football director presents him potential targets from where he chooses plus the football director is the one dealing with money! Sometimes I get bored of having to manage the financial part of the business...

That was the main problem, KK didn't get the luxury of putting in lists.

Of course he did.

It's just that the 2 players that Newcastle bought on deadline day had never been on one of his lists.

And I think it's as much about them trying to flog Owen to Spurs as the players that came in.

It's the whole situation not isolated incidents.

Prove he didn't.... The fact that he resigned stating that players were brought he without his input, is that enough proof?

Its not possible to prove either, your just making an assumption based on a quote. It doesnt go into depth, it wont explain everything, it actually explains hardly anything! Just that, players were bought without his imput, Were Collocini (sp?) and the Spiderman bloke bought without KK's approval?

You dont know, stop trying to make people believe in anything more than an opinion.

Don't want to talk about KK yet again, as a Newcastle fan the whole issue depresses me. But I think this could work in the game if it were put it in- to slightly more of an extent that it is at the moment at certain clubs, while still giving you the manager some control over who you want in. The Director of Football should be in the game, possibly there are good ones and bad ones(Wise) and they have different levels of interference.

I think it would work like this: The Director of Football simply recommends incoming and outgoing players to you with prices and detailed scouting reports, much like a scout, but rather you don't ask them to do it, they do it anyway. And for that extra realism possibly at some clubs, very rarely I hasten to add- the Chairman/DOF could interfere to an inappropriate level. I don't think it should happen all the time in FM, but it should be part of the game.