Whats all the fuss about 3D?

Through reading this forum everyday for a while now I've come across many threads/posts against a 3D match engine, whats the big deal? A few years ago im sure many folk were against the introduction of the 2D pitch but im sure most folk will use it now and again, but if you dont like it you dont have to use it.What will change with 3D? Im sure if this were to be implemented you would still have the ability to change the angle to an overhead so there isnt much difference with the last few releases.

Who knows if this is even will be a feature of FM09, (find out soon tho), and I for one would be pleased thoroughly if this is a new edition to the game, but not distrought if it doesnt feature. So many people go on about making the game more realistic, but how many managers watch their teams from above, and Im not saying 3D will be amazingly realistic but it will be a step closer...

Anyways who knows, so lets just wait and see and if 3D is introduced give it a try before slaughtering it and if you dont like it dont use it!!! Cant wait til tonight keep up the good work fellas

I agree with you 100% 3D will take this game to the next level, but if its not in this years edition im sure it will be implemented in next years one.

I have to agree with the above too - the 3D would only be a representation of the match engine and I'd imagine that you would still be able to play in 2D (or even just commentary) if that was your preference.

I say there is no chance of 3D in FM09.

3D would give you a much bigger insight is what is happening in a match, now Im not after Pes or Fifa, but more like LMA type graphics. But not LMA gameplay. I think the gameplay needs to be realistic and be 3D. If that isn't possible I say stick with 2D. There may have been privately developing 3D for a while, we just don't know! ROLL ON TONIGHT

3D is unnecessary when compared with other improvements required in the game. It would be welcome, however, if it really did look like people playing. BUT, with the current limitations on gameplay and modern computers, I can't see it being a massive improvement on the 2D blobs. It will just be little men with their legs and arms moving in a slight approximation of animated footballers. They will all be near-identical with perhaps slight variations in skin/hair colour. A pass will be a pass, a shot will be a shot and a header will be a header.

Allow me to explain: with Christiano Ronaldo's dribbling and step-overs you can see this clearly on Sky/MotD and study how he feints to go past opponants; when watching Rooney you can replay a magnificant shot from many angles and marvel at how he generates his power, etc; seeing Beckham take a free kick is a masterclass in body shape. 3D match graphics will show none of this.

The people on here hoping to "study what their players are doing on the pitch" will be sorely disappointed as these 3D graphics will show nothing more important than the 2D ones... just look at PS games like Pro Evo and Fifa... other than the players who are sponsored by the games, every player looks and moves the same, just a bit faster/slower/fatter/thinner than each other.

I think the main objection to the 3D graphics is that so much needs fixing from FM08, and that 3D will be nothing more than a cosmetic feature -- and if SI are investing money into this field, surely other more important things (like, I dunno, GAMEPLAY) will be left behind. The matchday graphics are a very small part of what makes FM so enjoyable.

HOWEVER, please let me state categorically, I am not fundamentally opposed to 3D graphics. Indeed, I would LIKE to see them, even in the limited state that they will inevitably first appear. Who doesn't want their game to LOOK nice? I just don't believe they will be the huge step forward people hope they'll be. Not until the programmers can code every single player individually, and not just a range of moves based on their stats.

Oh well. Perhaps I'm wrong. Who knows?

Wait! We will. In about 7 hours. Or whenever the server comes back up after its predictable crash this evening.

I don't personally remember anyone being against the 2D engine when it was introduced. It's just because that now that we've got a visual representation of matches, plus it being top-down and better for tactical analysis, I think for some people 3D seems like a pointless upgrade as it would take more graphical resources - there are some people who are able to play FM on an old computer and 3D would force them to have to spend money to upgrade. Plus half of the fun of 2D is the imagination one uses when something extraordinary happens. If 3D is used, there's only so many sorts of player moves that could be put into the game and somethings would get repetetive and the novelty would be lost after a day or two of playing. I would rather see the 2D engine perfected than them just ditching it and moving straight onto 3D.

IMHO, FM has and always will be a spreadsheet-style simulator. It's interesting how a lot of the time I see the same people who say they want 3D also want difficulty levels (Easy, Medium and Hard) - what's the point in that? They want it to be some sort of arcadey Hello Kitty Football Manager Adventure.

Also, SI said last week that "3D won't be in FM09".

3D or 2D?? We will have answer in the evening

3D is unnecessary when compared with other improvements required in the game. It would be welcome, however, if it really did look like people playing. BUT, with the current limitations on gameplay and modern computers, I can't see it being a massive improvement on the 2D blobs. It will just be little men with their legs and arms moving in a slight approximation of animated footballers. They will all be near-identical with perhaps slight variations in skin/hair colour. A pass will be a pass, a shot will be a shot and a header will be a header.

Allow me to explain: with Christiano Ronaldo's dribbling and step-overs you can see this clearly on Sky/MotD and study how he feints to go past opponants; when watching Rooney you can replay a magnificant shot from many angles and marvel at how he generates his power, etc; seeing Beckham take a free kick is a masterclass in body shape. 3D match graphics will show none of this.

The people on here hoping to "study what their players are doing on the pitch" will be sorely disappointed as these 3D graphics will show nothing more important than the 2D ones... just look at PS games like Pro Evo and Fifa... other than the players who are sponsored by the games, every player looks and moves the same, just a bit faster/slower/fatter/thinner than each other.

I think the main objection to the 3D graphics is that so much needs fixing from FM08, and that 3D will be nothing more than a cosmetic feature -- and if SI are investing money into this field, surely other more important things (like, I dunno, GAMEPLAY) will be left behind. The matchday graphics are a very small part of what makes FM so enjoyable.

HOWEVER, please let me state categorically, I am not fundamentally opposed to 3D graphics. Indeed, I would LIKE to see them, even in the limited state that they will inevitably first appear. Who doesn't want their game to LOOK nice? I just don't believe they will be the huge step forward people hope they'll be. Not until the programmers can code every single player individually, and not just a range of moves based on their stats.

Oh well. Perhaps I'm wrong. Who knows?

Wait! We will. In about 7 hours. Or whenever the server comes back up after its predictable crash this evening.

no worries in the server crashing because the video will be on the youtube server and that is massive

Also, SI said last week that "3D won't be in FM09".

Really?

no worries in the server crashing because the video will be on the youtube server and that is massive

Is it big enough for ALL of us though?

Okay, maybe. I forgot it was on uTube to be honest. But we might slow it down at least.

I was about to agree with the question in the title, but then read the first post and found it was saying the opposite of what the title suggests so I disagree instead.

FM is a football management simulation, it doesn't need 3d and unless it were entirely done by a 3rd party (in which case it would be horrific) or by a big increase in SI staff it ould take away from time spent on far more important things.

A 3d view of the match engine will tell you no more than commentary or 2d since the same triggers would be used to determine what gets shown as are used to determine what you are told in the commentary. I don't care about the minutiae of what an individual player is prancing around doing, only what the team as a whole is doing. If I want 3d then I'll go and buy one of the other naff football games that have such an engine as I've done twice before (both those games had me utterly hooked for ~2 days before boredom set in)

I think the biggest benefit of 3D would be being able to see things like fouls and dodgy penalty decisions in more detail, so when you are asked about controversial decisions after a game you can actually give a proper opinion rather than just guessing or going on your player's reaction. I imagine a 3D view could get quite detailed, with names and shirt numbers being generated properly, and even tying in with the FaceGen stuff for the player's faces.

However, it would likely take quite a few years to perfect, and would need to be done properly in order to be worthwhile. Long term I have absolutely no doubt we will see a 3D match view, but for FM2009 at least, I think we will (and should) remain 2D only.

I think the biggest benefit of 3D would be being able to see things like fouls and dodgy penalty decisions in more detail, so when you are asked about controversial decisions after a game you can actually give a proper opinion rather than just guessing or going on your player's reaction.

I've said it before, but 3D is not necessary for this and what we need is clearer match commentary and match reports. The analysts on television don't say "do they have a case", they say "that was harsh", "that was offside", if we were given relevant and definitive commentary it would sort this problem out, so 3D isn't necessary.

I would only like to see a 3D Match Engine on fm if it was the same has LMA 2005 3D Game, the match engine is everthing thats what you look forward to when you've done pe-season and signed all your players.

the match engine on LMA 2005 was really good, but the game overall was poor, but because the match engine was that fun and good to watch it made me carry on playing it

Until they brang out LMA 2006 and they wrecked the match engine

anyways, i dont think it'll be introduce on FM 2009,

Maybe fm 2010 or 2011

3D wouldn't be the worst thing happening to FM, but I'm afraid it will be executed poorly and will need patches before it works correctly. That's why I'm hoping there will be no 3D representation of the match engine in FM09.

Or even better just remove the questions on controversial decisions since they are pointless anyway

Or even better just remove the questions on controversial decisions since they are pointless anyway

I like them, but I always side with my team even if I think they are in the wrong. I wish it did have more impact though, and helped build manager personalities etc because atm you're right, they are pretty pointless.

I think the biggest benefit of 3D would be being able to see things like fouls and dodgy penalty decisions in more detail.

No you won't. You don't see it in great detail on PS/Xbox games like PES, except in the most basic of ways (which become repetitive after a dozen or so games), and there's no way FM will be quite so detailed as that. The men will be little annimations and the detail will be limited -- at least for a few years.

3D graphics will be nothing more than a pretty tablecloth over the exisiting engine. Not an unwelcome tablecloth, but still merely a cosmetic feature.

Sorry guys, but if 3D is indeed what's awaiting us, it will not be the Holy Grail you're hoping for.

(5hrs 45mins to go... tick-tock, tick-tock)

In response to Nomis07:

I used to, but after a few touchline bans I just give the neutral response every single time now - the risk/reward ratio is so heavily weighted in the risk favour that it is pointless. The absolute best outcome you can get from kicking up a shindy about a decision is that one of your players gets a morale boost for a short period of time that has generally worn off before the next match comes around...as for the downsides, there are many!

cant remember which game it was (FM or when FM did CM), but the one that had a shadow n that for the ball when it went in the air, that would be a good enough enhancement for me. think it was either cm4 or 03/04

One word..."progress"

The 2d view is perfectly fine for the moment.

It's the match engine that needs an overhaul, hopefully this will be the case with '09 and not just a tweaked edition of the previous engine.

One word..."progress"

I prefer sentences myself. They tend to convey more precise meaning!

As for "progress", I have seen many games where subsequent versions "regress" in the name of what they misguidedly call progress. Adding some fancy trumped up 3d stuff to a game (as is the case in another totally different game that instantly became crap when that happened) may seem like progress, but could very easily be the opposite.

So, for the avoidance of doubt ( ), I don't believe there will be a 3d engine in FM09

I prefer sentences myself. They tend to convey more precise meaning!

As for "progress", I have seen many games where subsequent versions "regress" in the name of what they misguidedly call progress. Adding some fancy trumped up 3d stuff to a game (as is the case in another totally different game that instantly became crap when that happened) may seem like progress, but could very easily be the opposite.

So, for the avoidance of doubt ( ), I don't believe there will be a 3d engine in FM09

its interesting to see that you have no faith in SI at all. maybe they are more capable than you think?

btw...you sound like a certain spiritual institution when you talk about "progress".

throw you hand up in the air and shout "it can't work, look at all the horrible things that happened before in the name of progress...it can't work!!!"

I have faith in SI to keep producing a good football management sim and I have enough faith in them to believe that they won't put in a 3d match view.

As for "progress" I only use the term because you used it and since, as you stated, it was the only word you used to make your point there wasn't much choice! In the current case it is a totally irrelevant word to me. "Progress" is just anything moving forward. Whatever SI change in the game it'll be "progress" by definition.

ok...no prob.

Well, what could be an issue with 3d implementation is that matches might drag due to your/my slow computer. For example, run fm 00/01 on any present-day computer and you could complete 2 seasons within 20 minutes' holiday. And matches would fly by. I - even though i dont hate the 2d match engine - remain a text-only match viewer. Now the 2d engine has made some match-related things slower. 3d would only add to the delay.

While the 'if you dont like it, you dont have to use it' thing is true, I do expect 3d ME to significantly affect matchday performance. That, and the fact that no 3d match engine has yet been worth squat, leads to the apprehensiveness we have regarding the third dimension making its entry on FM.

There won't be any 3D this edition, SI have clearly stated it will use the same 2D match engine from FM Live which has been beta tested and fine tuned for over a year. Can't get much clearer than that, anyone holding out for a 3D match engine announcement should just get the idea out of their head now.

It would be a hugely dissapointing feature I believe anyway, how would they be able to re-create a proper football match in every aspect to look realistic. Impossible. The beauty of the 2D engine is that you can see movements but it still leaves a lot to the imagination, and when you take the imagination out of FM you are left with.. well, crappy fake looking 3D players running around like robots I'm guessing...

The 2d view is perfectly fine for the moment.

It's the match engine that needs an overhaul, hopefully this will be the case with '09 and not just a tweaked edition of the previous engine.

The thing is, the FM08 match engine was an "overhaul" and redo of the FM07 engine, which didn't need changing at all.

It needed changing, but more in the way of minor surgery than the massive leaps that seemingly took place and made it worse for the most part!

Progress for the sake of progress is useless.

What would a 3D bring to the core of the game, which is FOOTBALL MANAGING?

I have an old laptop (Celeron 2.2Ghz with 1GB ram + onboard SiS vga) and if FM moves to 3D it won't run. That's reason alone to make me angry. I have a 360 but I can't imagine playing FM on that.

Besides the obvious increase in sys requirements, performance wouldn't be great (sorry SiGames, but I suppose you prob don't have experience in 3D engines), the animations would probably be repetitive, and it would be hard to make the action look realistic.

FIFA manager uses the FIFA engine, so it's basically 2 separate teams developing one game. The FIFA engine has a few years of work on it.

I honestly hope SiG never moves to a 3D engine. I'd rather see official FIFA / UEFA licenses, faster performance, more pics, more media coverage, more staff interaction, etc...

I've been a virtual manager since the first Championship Manager game and I'm a big fan. I'm sure fans of the simulation wouldn't want to see a 3D engine, at least until it can look and perform as good as it should.

Wouldn't having 3D match engines mean the matches would be like the Fifa Manager matches. if so, please don't because I don't like them whatsoever. 2D is much better.

2D is what makes FM more enjoyable IMO. if it was 3D the system requirements wouldn probably be a lot higher than a 2D match engine making it avaliable to less people who still play on older machines.

i would still be able to play even if it was 3D but i would prefer it 2D. just wouldnt be FM without it

2D is what makes FM more enjoyable IMO. if it was 3D the system requirements wouldn probably be a lot higher than a 2D match engine making it avaliable to less people who still play on older machines.

i would still be able to play even if it was 3D but i would prefer it 2D. just wouldnt be FM without it

I totally agree.

FM is unique and 2D is, if you like, a trademark of theres so they won't be changing I'm pretty sure.

In principle, I have no problem with the match engine being represented in 3d - remember the engine itself will remain the same, it's only the representation of the actions it takes that will change.

However, I do have a problem in that for years Sports Interactive have tried to avoid (seemingly anyway) jumps in required minimum specs. I would imagine that the introduction of a 3d engine could/would cause a jump in required minimum specification. At a time in the economy where we are close to recession and people's disposable income is being hit by inflation, introduction of a 3d engine COULD cause sales to drop because people who have not got the requisite equipment might not have the money to upgrade if necessary.

Just me two cents.

We will find out in the next two hours probably, however I would've thought that the changes would be more fundamental than a new representation of the match engine. I would prefer overhauls of tactics, transfers and training - not that I'm one of the "these are broken and must be fixed first" crowd, I just think that improvements can be made, though I'm happy with what we have currently.

I hope there is 3d but fear there won't be.

I've put lots of thought into the issue since my previous responses and, as a result of that detailed thought process I think FM should use a 1D match engine instead - much easier on resources Failing that, and since 3D is so yesterday, it would have to be a 4D engine.

I still use the commentary (sp) never used the 2-D pitch!

For 3D to work in an FM game it needs to be of the level of the WETAstuff down for the Lord of the Rings movies. You cannot produce the same stuff as LMA etc where it is effectively just cut scene after cut scene.

One other flaw to 3D. you'd need the licence to create a player likeness of Rooney etc, otherwise SI and Sega would be potentially breaking the law.

oh great 3d! NOT!