Does the AI 'counter' our tactics?

[Rafa]So let's start off by saying that it's a FACT that there is no such thing as AI tactics 'cracking' in Football Manager. [/Rafa]

However, we do know that the opposition tactics will change as your reputation changes in the game. As the situation your team find themselves in changes, it will affect how opposition teams play against you. This is just one way that the AI changes its approach to 'counter' your tactic and a common misconception is that the tactic is now 'cracked'. Of course, it is not, it is just less effective as you are now in a different situation and facing different scenarios (i.e. your counter-attacking tactic might not be as effective now that you are playing against sides who park the bus etc.) Pretty basic footballing knowledge will get any FMer through this situation and use of the strategies in the TC is key for anyone playing the game, in my opinion.

But, is there more to the AI than this though? I'm wondering if the AI has access to the 'match analysis' that we receive prior to each match and can also use this to counter our tactics?

What I am asking is, does the AI react to information that we also receive in our pre-match meeting? Do they implement these recommendations in their tactical set-up against us? It would certainly make sense if they did and would be another way to explain the feeling some get that their tactics are being 'cracked'.

Any thoughts people? Any experiences of this in your FM careers?

What I am asking is, does the AI react to information that we also receive in our pre-match meeting? Do they implement these recommendations in their tactical set-up against us? It would certainly make sense if they did and would be another way to explain the feeling some get that their tactics are being 'cracked'.

I have to admit, as much as i enjoy this game, i do think there is a slight hint of that in this game...You are right though, it's not too hard to edit your tactics when this occurs, but as i mentioned in another thread, i don't like the way it 'clicks' into place if you get what i mean. It seem to always happen after a set amount of games...every season...on every save...

It's a bit like your opponents dont scout your team untill you've played around 7/8 games! Plus, just because a team knows your tactics, even though its a great advantage, it doesn't guarantee a win like it seems to do on FM.

Yeah it would be better if they "cracked it" more frequently but to a lesser effect rather than totally destroying your tactics at some preset point of time.

I think the AI reacts to next-match and also to last-match comments to a lesser extent. I also never seem to win a game when I start a mind-game and the AI also seems to change tactics now and then when I bring in an extra defender or an extra striker. IT seems to be responding to my commands, however I feel that the AI is only scratching the surface of what IT can really be..

I would certainly hope that they would try to flank me, cover their a**es when they are playing against a top club, have less pressure when they're playing against weak reputation teams and obviously try to play at their best when they're playing a god damn derby. There's just.. so much potential. SI is currently focusing too much on adding "improved" features. They wouldn't need to be "improved" if they would be "good" in the first place. My anger is probably coming from the fact that I find the 3D engine to be a step back in the series and it takes SI a LOT of time to "improve" it each year when they could be improving the AI, team reputations and how they work in-game, player personalities, adding the option to play without the ability to see player stats, add more depth to the fans ( I mean seriously, where would we be without fans? FM Live fans comes to mind however that is rather bleak as well.. ).

There's just so much potential in this game, I can't even.. Jezaz!

Yes you will say its easy because I'm Barca but i havent had 2nd season syndrome or found the AI has "cracked" my tactics even when blooding youngsters against teams.

I'll played Ath Madrid in the 2nd leg of the super cup and played a team of u21's including a 15yr old striker and won 1-0. I'll download FMRTE to see what the hgihest CA was but i dont think its any higher than 160?

They work out how you play and counter it, doesnt mean your tactic is now useless just got to make some changes.

I see why they do it and its in the game, but personally I find it hard to counter the counter, soto speak, so a tactic that does well then just goes to crap for me as not sure what to do.

I wonder who Rafa is playing FM as these days.

In fairness, don't we 'counter' the AI tactics too? I am always adjusting tactics throughout the match to try and gain and advantage, and the AI does it too. No one complains when they 'crack' the AI tactics and dominate

I'm having that now. Was ripping up Serie C1/A up til Dec, but have now lost 3 out of 4 despite using the same tactics and styles as before.

Yes you will say its easy because I'm Barca but i havent had 2nd season syndrome or found the AI has "cracked" my tactics even when blooding youngsters against teams.

I'll played Ath Madrid in the 2nd leg of the super cup and played a team of u21's including a 15yr old striker and won 1-0. I'll download FMRTE to see what the hgihest CA was but i dont think its any higher than 160?

That's because you started at a top team whose reputation doesn't suddenly change in the 2nd season unless it goes down. It can't go much higher, so if you have a successful first season then teams in the 2nd season will play in pretty much the same way against you.

In fairness, don't we 'counter' the AI tactics too? I am always adjusting tactics throughout the match to try and gain and advantage, and the AI does it too. No one complains when they 'crack' the AI tactics and dominate

We should be, but a lot of people playing this game seem to think that a tactic that is successful one season is going to always be successful. They don't factor in the idea that AI changes it's approach against you.

There is no such thing as super tactics that will always win any more (remember Diablo?), because the match engine has advanced so that no matter what tactic you employ, there is always a way of it being countered, and vice versa with the AI tactics.

I like to think of tactics like the game of rock, paper, scissors.

a prevcious sucessful tactic doesn't guarentee anything. You should always tweak your tactics in game and the ME always provides clues as to the changes you should make. For example, if you watch the opening 5 mins of your game and the oposing team get through on goal too easily - this should prompt you to think 'i'll change my defensive line to play deeper'. Or if your fullback keeps missing tackles, ask him to drop off or change tackling mentality. Football managemnt isn't about clicking start and expecting your team to win regardless, it's about counter acting your opponent or being pro active instead of reactionary. You can learn alot from the ME - just watch - the clues are there

I'm fairly sure the AI also reacts to the season expectations that you choose. Several times come January when I have been over achieving with clubs - and you get the news item asking if you wish to change your season objectives - I have, say for example chose European qualification as a change to the pre season objective of mid table finish then I have seen teams alter the way the play against me immediately after this change of expectations. My guess is the league position media prediction on the club screen, the clubs overall reputation, and you're choice of season expectations result in the initial way that the AI chooses to set up against you then all the other variables home/away fixture, player morale etc state of the match adjust this initial AI Plan in game

That's because you started at a top team whose reputation doesn't suddenly change in the 2nd season unless it goes down. It can't go much higher, so if you have a successful first season then teams in the 2nd season will play in pretty much the same way against you.

I'm in my 8/9th seaon and won the league every year and the Champs the last 4. In saying that, the AI still seems to always play the same, they dont seem to try and counter my tactic.

I dont change mine to play against the AI regardless of who i am playing or where and seem to always get the result I want.

I think i'm going to use my youngsters this season and use my "stars" as subs and rotate them in.

Should be interesting

[Rafa]So let's start off by saying that it's a FACT that there is no such thing as AI tactics 'cracking' in Football Manager. [/Rafa]

However, we do know that the opposition tactics will change as your reputation changes in the game. As the situation your team find themselves in changes, it will affect how opposition teams play against you. This is just one way that the AI changes its approach to 'counter' your tactic and a common misconception is that the tactic is now 'cracked'. Of course, it is not, it is just less effective as you are now in a different situation and facing different scenarios (i.e. your counter-attacking tactic might not be as effective now that you are playing against sides who park the bus etc.) Pretty basic footballing knowledge will get any FMer through this situation and use of the strategies in the TC is key for anyone playing the game, in my opinion.

But, is there more to the AI than this though? I'm wondering if the AI has access to the 'match analysis' that we receive prior to each match and can also use this to counter our tactics?

What I am asking is, does the AI react to information that we also receive in our pre-match meeting? Do they implement these recommendations in their tactical set-up against us? It would certainly make sense if they did and would be another way to explain the feeling some get that their tactics are being 'cracked'.

Any thoughts people? Any experiences of this in your FM careers?

I think Loverleaper covers this pretty well (best explanation I have heard of) with his 'mentality framework'. If this idea is true, and I have seen no reason to think it is not the case whilst playing the last couple of years, the A.I. plays tactics of a certain mentality against your tactics. Now, depending on the stature of both your team and the AI team, who is playing home and who is away, and the recent form of both teams, match odds etc. will determine how attacking or defending the AI will play against you to start off.

Now there seems to be re-rankings of teams every 6 months - a major one each summer and a perhaps more minor one in the winter (perhaps late Jan/Feb) which causes the AI to reset the above variables I listed that determine how attacking or defending it will be against certain teams.

Say you have a great season winning against virtually everyone and then come next season, you seem to be struggling to win, according to Loversleapers philosophy, the AI may just be playing more defensive against you than it was the previous season. If you are still playing the same mentality of tactic as the previous season versus the AIs more defensive tactic then you may struggle to break them down. Heck, some of these games you may even start getting caught on the break and losing by the odd goal 1-0 or so. Before you know it you have a drop in morale etc and this kicks in to compound your problems even more.

One thing I like about this game is that momentum is very important. Being on a winning run can buy you the odd win in an otherwise tight match. Likewise, being on a losing rut can be difficult to break, the longer it goes on.

Again, this is not my idea, Loversleaper is the genius here, but from my own (much more limited experience in comparison) it seems the best explanation I have ever come across for the so-called AI cracking theory. I'm sure the AI does not crack your formation. Certainly, my own applications of Loversleapers philosophies seem to suggest strongly that Loversleaper is on the right lines.

He may be on to something, but from match to match (even before the "reset") the AI reads form, lineup, formation, odds to choose how to play against you and it adjusts in game pretty frequently with OI, mentality, formation etc. It's observable if anyone cares to note. I agree with you that there is no "cracking" happening. It adjusts as we all want it to do, and it can be frustrating, but the only solution is to take advantage of the tools in the game to pinpoint why your team is all of a sudden getting shut down.

This is just MHO, and not meant to offend, but I suspect that most people that complain about AI cracking their tactic, and how bad the ME is are lazy players and simply want to plug a tactic in, buy what they think are the best players, and go from there. Sometimes success is only achieved in FM through some detail oriented work within the game. But that is what makes it great- I can go play an arcade game any old time if that is what is wanted.

I started a thread yesterday about good form just coming to an end all of a sudden and not bieng able to buy a win for a while. This one of the explanations giving and yes it is very annoying.

I started a thread yesterday about good form just coming to an end all of a sudden and not bieng able to buy a win for a while. This one of the explanations giving and yes it is very annoying.

It is frustrating I agree. It is also fixable. Clubs in RL have drops in form, and sometimes really bad ones. How many clubs go on 20 match unbeaten runs? What I did notice in your thread is that a couple of folks posted that it's annoying to have to have several tactical options to deal with the AI countering you. Wth? Isn't this the game called Football Manager? Isn't that what managers do? Not having a go at you, Matt, over this, btw. Just the idea again that some want it just to be easy. You can turn form around-I've done it. Not always with flair and style, but the options in the game are there to do so if you take the time to tinker a bit.

It is frustrating I agree. It is also fixable. Clubs in RL have drops in form, and sometimes really bad ones. How many clubs go on 20 match unbeaten runs? What I did notice in your thread is that a couple of folks posted that it's annoying to have to have several tactical options to deal with the AI countering you. Wth? Isn't this the game called Football Manager? Isn't that what managers do? Not having a go at you, Matt, over this, btw. Just the idea again that some want it just to be easy. You can turn form around-I've done it. Not always with flair and style, but the options in the game are there to do so if you take the time to tinker a bit.

I know it is changable, and I dont want the game to be too easy however getting beat off teams like St Mirren and Kilmarnock in a row after running riot against the likes of Shakthar and Dundee United only 2 weeks earlier its just fustrating. TBH when I made that threead I wasent in the best of moods and ready for throwing the game out the window

I find that the AI often uses a different formation against me, maybe because of my higher reputation.

I've also tried to create a 'mismatch' with my strikers vs AI defenders (ie. TM vs fast DC, fast SC vs slow DC) and sometimes they've been clever enough to pick up on this and swap their DCs around. Sometimes they do that to me as well, I have my strongest DC marking their TM and fastest DC marking their fast striker and they switch positions halfway through the game! Very sneaky... not that I don't do the same, of course

dont real life managers crack opponents too?

The thought has occurred to me in the past that perhaps those who feel that their tactics have been 'cracked' or, more accurately, are being 'countered' by the AI, have an issue with their tactical set-up in that it is too one dimensional. For instance, if you are always going through one channel (a playmaker, perhaps) or always focusing through the middle, the AI is surely able to take steps to minimise the impact of your main goalscoring threat.

The thought has occurred to me in the past that perhaps those who feel that their tactics have been 'cracked' or, more accurately, are being 'countered' by the AI, have an issue with their tactical set-up in that it is too one dimensional. For instance, if you are always going through one channel (a playmaker, perhaps) or always focusing through the middle, the AI is surely able to take steps to minimise the impact of your main goalscoring threat.

good point. To add to my earlier post, I forgot to add that after a successful season and the re-ranking that comes with it, and with the AI playing more defensively than before against you, one needs to raise the mentality of their own tactic, i.e. play more attacking to break it down.

I tend to play with global settings as much as possible like mentality, closing down (only DCs have a lower closing down). Everyone bar DCs on mixed forward runs to keep team shape together as much as possible, and play mixed i.e. no playmaker or target man and not usually playing through middle or wide although can sometimes be specific on this depending on pitch size.

The thought has occurred to me in the past that perhaps those who feel that their tactics have been 'cracked' or, more accurately, are being 'countered' by the AI, have an issue with their tactical set-up in that it is too one dimensional. For instance, if you are always going through one channel (a playmaker, perhaps) or always focusing through the middle, the AI is surely able to take steps to minimise the impact of your main goalscoring threat.

It would be my guess also.

I always keep my options open with 4 tactics that are different from eachother. (4-5-1, very defensive 5-3-2, 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1)

It doesn't always work out the way I want it to be but at least it shows in the ME that a drastic change can make a difference.

Somehow I think changing tactics to often can lead into bad results but I like to believe that relying on one tactic is far worse in the long run.

I would love to see more tactical feedback from my staff though.

Little things can make a difference. For example, the AI managers often try to specific mark creative players. If, for example, you are using a younger, lower reputation player as your creative fulcrum, he might often be in lots of space as the AI doesn't regard him as a key threat. However, as you develop his creative skills and improve his reputation, the AI managers start paying more attention to him and start to mark him out of the game. Suddenly your creative well runs dry and your tactics looks toothless.

Well put WWFan. That was the sort of point I was trying to make.

"Tactic cracking", I've found, is really minimal. It pretty much amounts to adding a DMC, changing general strategy and using opp-instructions. What most people perceive as "tactic cracking" is just the chance-nerfing that the game imposes on successful teams to emulate the "pressure of being a top team" or some such. Frankly, I would much prefer a genuine tactic-cracking AI instead of the contrived rubberband logic the game uses now.