Dynamic League Rep hard coded?

Is the first year of the dynamic league rep? Several people I know, running different leagues and getting different results, are getting the exact same movement in the dynamic league rep.

Belarus Highest Division: 64th to 49th

Croatian First Division: 41st to 58th

Lithuanian A League: 81st to 56th

Some others:

Russian Premier Division: 9th to 7th

Turkish Premier Division: 8th to 12th

Romanian First Division: 22nd to 15th

One person had the Croatian First Division fall 17 spots, even though, he took a Croatian team to victories over Arsenal, Malaga, and Leverkusen in the Champions League.

Seems like. Austrian Premier league also falls down like 12 spots first year

I'd laugh if the entire DLR is in fact hard coded. Suppose it wouldn't really be dynamic then..

Why have SI done this in the first season?

I got all of those too.

I'd assume a leagues rep is based over say, the past 5 years of clubs performance and stuff, so maybe we're going to see normal changes in the first year as the previous 4 are already stored in or something :/. That's how UEFA Coefficients are calculated anyway.

I have a similar problem than you guys. I was playing with Olimpija(slovenian first league). I was playing in euro cup second knockout when I was defeted by Juventus so I was very good for my club and league rep. But in the end of the season my league rep. droped form 55th to 69th place WTF!!!! O

Won't this be in large part due to League Rep being calculated over a 5 year period? I.e. if a league's teams had a particularly good year 5 years ago then of course after 1 year this will drop off, and teams would have to do very well to compensate for losing it, simply in order to stand still.

Won't this be in large part due to League Rep being calculated over a 5 year period? I.e. if a league's teams had a particularly good year 5 years ago then of course after 1 year this will drop off, and teams would have to do very well to compensate for losing it, simply in order to stand still.

You are missing the point. The previous 4 years worth of reputations should be built in, in fact it has to be for this to work. But what happens in year 5, i.e. the year which is to an extent controlled by the human manager, is the variable factor here and there are no variations in the end of year results which people are finding.

If I play in Croatia and everyone gets knocked out of Europe at the first chance - the league's rep drops to position x.

If I play in Croatia and win the Champions League whilst another team wins the Europa League - the league's rep drops to the same position x.

Unless the end of the season 2010-1 reputations are based on the results from 2004-2009 then the results from 2010-1 should have an impact. At the moment it does not look like they do.

You are missing the point. The previous 4 years worth of reputations should be built in, in fact it has to be for this to work. But what happens in year 5, i.e. the year which is to an extent controlled by the human manager, is the variable factor here and there are no variations in the end of year results which people are finding.

If I play in Croatia and everyone gets knocked out of Europe at the first chance - the league's rep drops to position x.

If I play in Croatia and win the Champions League whilst another team wins the Europa League - the league's rep drops to the same position x.

Unless the end of the season 2010-1 reputations are based on the results from 2004-2009 then the results from 2010-1 should have an impact. At the moment it does not look like they do.

The UEFA ranking determines the number of teams competing in the season after the next, not in the first season after the publication of the ranking. Thus, the 2011 ranking determines the allocation in 2012–13, not 2011–12.

(from wiki)

dlr can't be working properly, i won the europa league and the division still dropped 89 places.

The UEFA ranking determines the number of teams competing in the season after the next, not in the first season after the publication of the ranking. Thus, the 2011 ranking determines the allocation in 2012–13, not 2011–12.

(from wiki)

THIS +1

Please read before any more replies.

Sorry?

We're talking about DLR, not the coefficients.

Sorry?

We're talking about DLR, not the coefficients.

Aren't SI using the coefficients?

Aren't SI using the coefficients?

DLR and coefficients are seperate.

Personally looking at the way it seems from my own results, there seems to be some sort of link to the National Teams performance, I don't think I agree with this playing a part, as it would mean England would drop quickly

Another point to note is that after the top 6 or 7 leagues the difference between the next 15-20 leagues is next to nothing, and then the groups after that get even bigger.

Clearly not hardcoded, but I would like more from SI as to how this is calculated..,.

How can it be 'clearly not hardcoded'? It clearly is hardcoded in the first season. Everybody is seeing the same results after the 2010/11 season. I really want this to work properly. DLR is probably the biggest factor motivating me to buy the game this time around. I thought FM10 was a really good game, but that the series as a whole was getting a bit stale. DLR, working properly, would offer a new challenge, one which had actually got me quite excited at the prospect of playing this. That's a feeling I hadn't had for a few years about an FM game. So for me, they need to get this right.

What about the season following? Any variation there?

The adjustments at the end of the first season may be dependent on factors that are fixed from events prior to the game start date... I don't know the formula so that's speculation, but it would explain what's happening.

Oh I understand that. I wasn't expecting to win the Champion's League with Rapid Vienna and to see the Austrian top flight as a top three league as a result. It's more the fact that several different people have recorded exactly the same movements for exactly the same competitions after the first season, regardless of club performances in continental competitions or natiional team performances in qualifying competitions. If I win the Champion's League with Dinamo Zagreb in the first season, the Croatian league is still going to fall seventeen places in the 'league table'.

If hardcoding it for the first season is what was required to make this work, then fine. If the effects of success (or otherwise) are subject to a one season lag, then that's fine too. That this is going to work is the most important thing. But as it stands, nobody knows, because nobody is telling us. Ultimately, a bit of communication would calm a bit of the ire which is directed at SI from the people who buy the game.

OK, I can accept that it isn't hardcoded, I'm no expert on these things. But the league movements haven't just been similar. They have been exactly the same. Look at these examples from the OP:

Belarus Highest Division: 64th to 49th

Croatian First Division: 41st to 58th

Lithuanian A League: 81st to 56th

Some others:

Russian Premier Division: 9th to 7th

Turkish Premier Division: 8th to 12th

Romanian First Division: 22nd to 15th

These exact movements have been repeated in the saves of several people now. As Shrewnaldo said above, the 2010/11 season is the variable factor. No matter what the human manager does in that first season, we can't change the results of the previous four or five seasons. I get that, it makes perfect sense. But 2010/11 will be different for every player. So how is it that it makes no difference whatsoever?

I get that lower down the rankings movement will be more fluid, because the leagues are similarly rated. But that should work both ways. If, as an example I've read elsewhere attests, the human manager has a good Champion's League run with a Croatian club, and Lithuanian sides do nothing at all in Europe, then the Lithuanian league shouldn't be leapfrogging the Croatian league. Not unless Lithuanian clubs have been outperforming Croatian leagues over the last few seasons. Which they haven't.

The only accurate way of testing this is to holiday for a significant number of years, and then redo it and compare results

The reason its similar

Hi Lucas,

Thanks for your time spent trying to explain this, but the movements after the first season aren't just similar, they're seemingly exactly the same for everyone, irrespective of the results that have occured.

For example, the Crotian league always seems to drop down 17 places from 41st to 58th and even did so in the case of someone who took a Crotian team to the CL (for the first time in 16 years) and then proceeded to beat Arsenal, Malaga and Bayer Leverkusen. I understand that's not enough to jump up loads of ranks, but to slip below Lithuania seems bizarre. How can this be possible?

You've also said that it isn't linked to co-efficients, in which case, where does the effect of doing well in the first season get registered?

As SmurfDude says, the accurate way of testing this is over a number of years. It's unfair to judge it after the first season only. You'll notice changes over time, as I've said.

As for people saying they are experiencing the same results, you are judging it after the first season remember - once the game evolves you will all see different trends and results over time.

Hope this helps

Thank you Lucas for trying to explain this, but the main issue is, no disrespect intended, still unresolved. We all understand that it is a gradual and slow process, and that the more the game goes on the more people's league reps will differ, but the problem is that after the first season the movements are exactly the same for everyone, which can mean only one thing: Whatever is used to compute league reputation doesn't take into account the previous season, just those before. And the obvious question is - why?

Stop fixating on the first season already ;s

Excuse me, but we are not fixating, I am not, at least. We are trying to understand how the newly added system works so we can enjoy our games better, I see no crime in that.

Okay, we all know that DLR is a long term feature, and we're all quite willing to trust that, over time, every game will see different changes based on the goings on in their game. We're not questioning that in the slightest, so please don't respond with that line. The first season is what's confusing us, because the initial results are identical in so many cases. All we really want to know is how have you decided to work out the calculations for DLR?

At the minute, I can see a few answers, which I shall now explain badly:

a) The first season is hard coded and based on results from last season and further back, meaning that season one results affect the DLR table at the end of season two, s2 performances impact on the DLR table for s3 and so on. We'd all be perfectly happy with that answer, by the way.

b) It's not hard coded, but the starting reputations of some leagues are so similar, and the differences between others so great that the first seasons results, however good or bad, aren't going to make any difference to the DLR table at the end of the first season, because the other season's results that are bing used to calculate the DLR changes far outweigh them. In other words, however well you do with a Croatian side in the first season, you will still fall to the exact same spot as everyone else because the previous years being factored in are significantly in favour of Lithuania. At the same time, if you do badly the other leagues are so far behind that they can't send the Croatian league any further down the table, no matter how well their teams do. That's probably fine too, as long as continued progress will counter this in the long run. Which we're all still happy to believe it will.

c) It's something else I haven't thought of. If it's this one, then please elaborate.

Either way Croatia falling behind Lithuania still seems a bit wierd, it has to be said.

May I inject, that the numbers given in this thread all perfectly match my game as well, so add another to the list of being identical

Thing is, it shouldn't be that after year one, every single persons game have the exact same ups and downs, we should be seeing minor differences, even if it's a case of a certain league goes down further because of an absolutely rubbish year

If I were to reload from the start of the game, and completely demolish the Belarusian Leagues (bankrupt them and ensure their clubs loose any non-domestic match, and their national team loose every game as well), will their rise from 64th to 49th still be identical? Or will it be different, because in that situation (ignoring the realistic side of things of that not going to happen IRL), their reputation should quite literary bomb, due to clubs having no money and becoming whipping boys for other nations

Tbh, I maybe tempted to test that actually

Of course, if their is a one year delay before such actions taking effect on the reputation, then they may need relooking at, as reputations tend to have immediate effects, don't they?

The reason its similar is because it works off league reputation(s) (amongst teams performances) and there is an adjustment factor in place which makes sure the leagues are in the correct 'position' in the rankings.

Please say I'm completely misreading this... but are you saying a leagues reputation is calculated by their reputation?

Or are you meaning that the reputation of a previous years are taken into account to prevent major drops or rises?

Wait, what do you mean "a fluke win (ala Porto)"?

May I inject, that the numbers given in this thread all perfectly match my game as well, so add another to the list of being identical

Thing is, it shouldn't be that after year one, every single persons game have the exact same ups and downs, we should be seeing minor differences, even if it's a case of a certain league goes down further because of an absolutely rubbish year

If I were to reload from the start of the game, and completely demolish the Belarusian Leagues (bankrupt them and ensure their clubs loose any non-domestic match, and their national team loose every game as well), will their rise from 64th to 49th still be identical? Or will it be different, because in that situation (ignoring the realistic side of things of that not going to happen IRL), their reputation should quite literary bomb, due to clubs having no money and becoming whipping boys for other nations

Tbh, I maybe tempted to test that actually

Of course, if their is a one year delay before such actions taking effect on the reputation, then they may need relooking at, as reputations tend to have immediate effects, don't they?

In the grand scheme of things (especially with a component that depends on long range data such as DLR) one season will have minimal difference to a pattern that is already well into effect. It may seem suspicious that we're all getting identical first seasons but that is because one season is not enough to modify shifts and league fashions. Look at Red Star when they won the Champions League, and even Porto too. The Serbian and Portuguese leagues didn't suddenly roar up into the top ranked leagues. In comparison, the EPL has become part of the top 3/4 leagues in Europe due to continued and consistent success in Europe by a variety of English teams.

EDIT: To be fair to Red Star and Serbia, the reorganisation of the regions leagues probably didn't help them or the teams they competed against domestically who all must have lost a fair bit of momentum and draw once a lot of the rivalries with clubs such as Dinamo were broken up.

In the grand scheme of things (especially with a component that depends on long range data such as DLR) one season will have minimal difference to a pattern that is already well into effect. It may seem suspicious that we're all getting identical first seasons but that is because one season is not enough to modify shifts and league fashions.

But there should still be some (even the tiniest of) differences if the 2010/11 seasons within FM is being taken into account

@Lucas, thx for the clearup

Just like to point out, I'm not doubting the long term, just more pointing out that the first season within FM does not appear to carry any weight within the calculations, like I said above we shouldn't really be seeing identical results across the board since that would require the input being the same or nearly the same, which in some cases aren't (one player having their team win a European Trophy) - which is why the question of the first season being hard-coded, or even having a one year delay is being asked

If it is, then it is, but if it isn't, it maybe a sign of a bug or weighting issue... or just working as intended, I don't know I don't have access to the code

While I have you here, if you are able too, could you answer if their are any hardcoded limits on League Reputations based on Continents?

90% of people assume rep is based heavily on Continental success, which of course heavily favours Europe, is this true or is the possibility of, say Australia becoming more popular than the English leagues possible with, say 100 seasons?

With respect to Porto, their main players left didn't they - the league didn't suddenly get the World's best players fleeing to Portugal because Porto won the ECL.

Fluke in the sense that it was unexpected, out of the ordinary. Sorry if I've caused any offence over that - just trying to offer an example here.

This is true, most players used the success to move to more reputable leagues, Porto then didn't have the money or players to continue any real success, therefore the national leagues as a whole didn't really benefit that much

So I guess Luís Fabiano, Diego, Saviola, Aimar and all of those who came after Porto won the Uefa Cup and the UCL is just a coincidence.

Thx for that answer Lucas, glad to hear about there being no final limit

Re: Delay, well, I would guess that the identical changes are either by design or a weighting issue then

Of course, this is something only the programming team could answer

Wait, what do you mean "a fluke win (ala Porto)"?

Didnt Man Utd have a perfectly good goal ruled out in the quarter final that contributed to Porto knocking them out? (or some such similar mis justice). They were lucky in that cup run...

They did. They weren't.

DeadZone - yeah, you're reading me wrong.... Obviously the league reputation isn't calculated against itself, but other leagues too and (as I seem to keep saying) club performances, which in turn affects club reputations, etc.

I still think some of you are focusing on the first season far too much with regards to this feature. The feature is intended - and does work - over a period of time. You are mistaking what looks like a meteoric rise (64th to 49th), as though to say each position in the table has equal weight. They don't. The differences between those positions are likely to be very small, which accounts for what looks like a high rise and a massive jump in league reputation (when in fact not much reputation change has taken place at all). It just does not happen in a single season, it takes time. You might well see a team jump 15 places in one season as far down as 60th in the table, but you would not see Belgium (for example) jump from say 15th to 1st in a single season, due to the differences in reputations between the positions and competitions taken into account.

As I've said, over a period of time in your games you will notice how it works more clearly.

This explain it now?

No.

It "being a gradual thing" just doesn't explain why we're all getting the same movements (irrespective of results) after the first season. If it's dynamic, it's dynamic and we wouldn't all be getting the same movements. Surely you can see the issue with this?

I appreciate your efforts to explain this, but they're really not making sense.

I have an idea...remember how Miles said some leagues rep is set in stone cause of licensing issues...could it be that some of the ones that move the same is because of this? And hence the only changes would be affected by how 'good/bad' the leagues around them are.

I am just coming up with some ideas...of course my first season results don't go anything like matching the above, but whatever.

RE: the 'one year delay' - there's no one year delay, there's the original reputation and then how things pan out from there. The feature works over time. I think you are confusing a one year delay with seeing the changes at the end of the season. It's when its calculated it updates.

Right. I think there's one clear way to resolve the confusion over this.

Over the next few days I am going to cheat and win the 2011 Champions League with Dinamo Zagreb. Now before I do this and given that you know how this works, I would like you to tell me what effect you think that will have on the reputation of the Croatian league at the end of the first season?

Irrespective of what has happened over the last x number of years it makes absolutely no sense for anything other than a reputation boost to happen to the Croatian league under this set of circumstances. If however my cheating efforts still result in Croatia dropping 17 places from 41st to 58th and Lithuania moving ahead of them at the end of the first season then can we agree that this feature just does not work how it should in the first season?

No.

It "being a gradual thing" just doesn't explain why we're all getting the same movements (irrespective of results) after the first season. If it's dynamic, it's dynamic and we wouldn't all be getting the same movements. Surely you can see the issue with this?

I appreciate your efforts to explain this, but they're really not making sense.

Look at it this way...If it is based over 5 seasons (This is a guess), then at the end of season 1 (2010/11) every league is losing their performance from 2005/06, so in all games this is happening, so Croatia for example always loses their performance from that year, if that was a good year for them the only way they don't drop as far is if they perform above that standard in this year...

Personally I believe it is probably based over a longer period than 5 years (as it should be), but I am trying to show why looking at just one season is stupid.

Look at it this way...If it is based over 5 seasons (This is a guess), then at the end of season 1 (2010/11) every league is losing their performance from 2005/06, so in all games this is happening, so Croatia for example always loses their performance from that year, if that was a good year for them the only way they don't drop as far is if they perform above that standard in this year...

Personally I believe it is probably based over a longer period than 5 years (as it should be), but I am trying to show why looking at just one season is stupid.

Seriously, I'm really struggling to deal with this level of reasoning. I really don't want to have to resort to posting a dictionary.com link to the meaning of the word "dynamic", but I will if you force me.

Want me to do it for you?

dy·nam·ic   

[dahy-nam-ik] Show IPA

–adjective Also, dy·nam·i·cal.

1.

pertaining to or characterized by energy or effective action; vigorously active or forceful; energetic: the dynamic president of the firm.

2.

Physics .

a.

of or pertaining to force or power.

b.

of or pertaining to force related to motion.

3.

pertaining to the science of dynamics.

4.

of or pertaining to the range of volume of musical sound.

5.

Computers . (of data storage, processing, or programming) affected by the passage of time or the presence or absence of power: Dynamic memory must be constantly refreshed to avoid losing data.

6.

Grammar . nonstative.

–noun

7.

a basic or dynamic force, esp. one that motivates, affects development or stability, etc

So the one we are looking at is adjective, really number 2 more than the others, "Force relating to motion" So in other words Dynamic means moveable reputation.

We have that using what I have explained above, and it is over a longer period of time even if based over 50 seasons, at the end of the first season every single team loses their results from 50 seasons ago, to go up they must do better than they did 50 seasons ago, if they do worse they go down, but it is also dependant on the other leagues around them and how they move as well.

As for the Croatia moving so far, it did not move by that same amount in my game, but even if they did it is 1 season, if the difference from my game to your game was so big after one season then I think it would be broken.

*Awaits the supposed fanboy comments*

Find me some proof that the Croatian league does anything other than move from 41st to 58th at the end of the first season and then we'll talk.

Whether you're a fanboy or not is irrelevant to me, I just want to understand how a feature that encouraged me to shell out £30 actually works.

As for the Croatia moving so far, it did not move by that same amount in my game,

Is this is true? I believe you are the first person to offer something different to what others have put

See, those of us wanting to know whats going on have observed the EXACT same outcomes, which is wrong and actually defies probability (SI Testing Team has already said the first season of FM is taken into account at the end of the season, therefore statistically, differences will be noticed, no matter how small)

However, if people are then able to start offering counter-evidence to show that not everybody is experiencing the same outcomes after the first season, then it can be put down to a rather large coincidence

I would suggest people post up full(ie. top 60) lists to see if they are any differences

However, due to the game not letting us print the page out as a text or html file (try it, doesn't work), it would be a very long typing session

Okay, we all know that DLR is a long term feature, and we're all quite willing to trust that, over time, every game will see different changes based on the goings on in their game. We're not questioning that in the slightest, so please don't respond with that line. The first season is what's confusing us, because the initial results are identical in so many cases. All we really want to know is how have you decided to work out the calculations for DLR?

At the minute, I can see a few answers, which I shall now explain badly:

a) The first season is hard coded and based on results from last season and further back, meaning that season one results affect the DLR table at the end of season two, s2 performances impact on the DLR table for s3 and so on. We'd all be perfectly happy with that answer, by the way.

b) It's not hard coded, but the starting reputations of some leagues are so similar, and the differences between others so great that the first seasons results, however good or bad, aren't going to make any difference to the DLR table at the end of the first season, because the other season's results that are bing used to calculate the DLR changes far outweigh them. In other words, however well you do with a Croatian side in the first season, you will still fall to the exact same spot as everyone else because the previous years being factored in are significantly in favour of Lithuania. At the same time, if you do badly the other leagues are so far behind that they can't send the Croatian league any further down the table, no matter how well their teams do. That's probably fine too, as long as continued progress will counter this in the long run. Which we're all still happy to believe it will.

c) It's something else I haven't thought of. If it's this one, then please elaborate.

Either way Croatia falling behind Lithuania still seems a bit wierd, it has to be said.

DeadZone - yeah, you're reading me wrong.... Obviously the league reputation isn't calculated against itself, but other leagues too and (as I seem to keep saying) club performances, which in turn affects club reputations, etc.

I still think some of you are focusing on the first season far too much with regards to this feature. The feature is intended - and does work - over a period of time. You are mistaking what looks like a meteoric rise (64th to 49th), as though to say each position in the table has equal weight. They don't. The differences between those positions are likely to be very small, which accounts for what looks like a high rise and a massive jump in league reputation (when in fact not much reputation change has taken place at all). It just does not happen in a single season, it takes time. You might well see a team jump 15 places in one season as far down as 60th in the table, but you would not see Belgium (for example) jump from say 15th to 1st in a single season, due to the differences in reputations between the positions and competitions taken into account.

As I've said, over a period of time in your games you will notice how it works more clearly.

This explain it now?

RE: the 'one year delay' - there's no one year delay, there's the original reputation and then how things pan out from there. The feature works over time. I think you are confusing a one year delay with seeing the changes at the end of the season. It's when its calculated it updates.

To answer your other question - League reputations aren't bound by their Continents, no.

We know that Belgium isn't going to magically overtake everyone as the best league in the world because you won the CL with Standard, nobody's suggesting that that's happening, that's totally moronic. What we're actually asking is why are so many people getting the exact same changes in the DLR rankings at the end of the first season, regardless of how well teams in those leagues perform?

Look at b) in my post, we know that the changes are going to be minimal in the first season, but there should still be some variations across saves depending on how teams perform. If, for example, Croatia on fell a few places in one game where their teams had done badly, and climbed a place when someone had done really well with a Croatian team, none of this would have ever been said. instead, significant numbers of people are experiencing the exact same rises and fall in league rep, despite dramatic differences in the performances of the relevant teams in almost every single game. This could have been explained by the one year delay, buy since you've said that there is no one year delay, I can't understand how these variations can all produce EXACTLY THE SAME results ACROSS MULTIPLE SAVES UNDERTAKEN BY DIFFERENT PEOPLE. As I said earlier, there should be some variations, even if only by one place here or there. To have them all being identical is very strange and surely SI can understand why some people are questioning this small detail. NOT THE REST OF DLR, WE HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THE REST WORKS FINE. IT'S JUST THE FIRST SEASON THAT LOOKS A BIT DODGY.

I think it would be really nice if someone from SI could answer a couple of questions:

1. How long is the period over which DLR is calculated?

2. Why are the aforementioned fluctuations generally leading to the same result in the first season? aka Why are Croatia falling behind Lithuania in so many games, even when Croatian sides are having significant successes in European competitons?

PLEASE DON'T SAY "THE FEATURE WORKS FINE IN THE LONG TERM" or "I THINK YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE FIRST SEASON TOO MUCH" or anything like that. We're just curious about why these similarities are happening in the first season, and we'd be satisfied with an honest, and easy to understand explanation of what happens with the DLR over season one to make these changes so common?

I'm gonna do a holiday game now to check out what happens. What leagues did people have loaded generally so that it's a fair test?