Trend of FM regens, Accurate proof, Well detailed.

I'm posting this becuase a lot of people are saying regions are becoming crap later on, I dunno i must be the only one where my game has almost followed a historical trend, Read on

quick definations

World class = All the players you consider or heard are world class. Steve Gerrerd, Beckham, Torres etc etc (Players who are key to there team but missing them isnt a huge miss)

Elite Class = C.Ronaldo, Rooney and Xavi (players who if missing have a massive impact)

Generation Class = Players who are rememberd for the decades, Pele, Maradona, Cruff, Zidane and Ronaldo and Messi few others etc and key to this, They must have lead there team to a International trophy and Rememberd for it (Messi in my game lead argentina to the world cup final being named Player of Tourney) Regen in my game Walter G lead uraguiy to copa america trophy and World cup finals pretty much on his own with a lame ass team.

The 2nd part to this is they must have made a consistant impact at club lvl to some degree.

Theres 9 players who all became or were Elite, Which makes sense, Theres 1 for each position almost, except maybe a centre back, This screenshot only shows players with CA 180 to Pa 190, which i would consider elite you might disagree but there you go, Notice all there ages, almost 30's except a few. Only 1 hit Generation class excluding Any real players.

Generation 2010> 2020

Generation 2 has four early boomers, who all became Elite class around 23-26,like you mite want now at Age 26,

Portuguese LM/LW (Ronaldo Style?) who turned world class at 20 and Elite at 23

The Italian ST (Rooney style?) World class at 18, Elite at 21,

The Italian RB (Maicon style?), Hes was world class at 20, now hes 23.

Finaly The Brazilian AM/ST (Messi/Kaka style), he turned world class at 21 and is now Elite at 24.

(If u want to see stats just ask)

The stats for 2020 to 2030

All players between 18-25, that can be world class or are already world class. And theres a decent balance for each positions, maybe theres maybe a few extra ST's and few CDM's but overall its pretty good balance, Theres a Fair amount of all nationaltys, If you follow history, most nations have a golden age, sometimes more then one, at the moment its Italian, With quite a few amazing Italians. The leagues I've loaded are England, Spain, Italy and Scotland which might have influced it.

To add to this if i was to filter all players from 160 to 200, theres are 752 players who have enough ability, Any of them could become class..

At the start of this thread i said Historical Trend?, With history, there are truly only 4 or 5 players who are always rememberd by name and theres usually only 1 or 2 who is rememberd long time past. Pele , maradona , cruff, Ronaldo , Zidane, Theres plenty of others but honestly would u put any of them ahead in your top 5, i was a bit bias to attacking players but of well, Well adding to the point, My game followed the same thing, Walter G become the next generation class star in my game, The man has done it all, I posted his bio and info in the next post, No space:(

Another point of this thread is just to say, people saying regens are getting worse and worse, In my game the stats seem fine, Most regens have decent stats and can be developed, some develop, some dont. Its fine, if u want a real problem, look at Long shots. This game should be renamed to Long Shot manager 2010 ,

W.G, Quick Bio

He was truly the greatest player of his generation, You could add him to the top 5 of all time greats. Walter Guitierrezz. At firsts his stats might not say much but when you look at the teams hes been in and what hes achived they speak for them selfs, He played as a Playermaker for Napoli and Real madrid, A.Madrid and B.Munch and Lead Uraguay to a trophy with a terrible team, Become the worlds most expensive player in combined transfer fees of 124million , Hes played for B.Munich, Napoli(new italian super power) and Real madrid, and He has won a staggering 24 Tropys. His Bio says it all (and hes still 30 in the best team in the world so expect it to rise) bow to the legend that is Walter G.

Top marks for missing the whole point.

The problem with newgens is NOT their CA/PA levels but the strength and distribution of their attributes. Decisions 3, Consistency 6, Important Matches 5, Anticipation 2, Natural Fitness 4 are regular player destroying attributes that pop up in newgens irrespective of their CA and PA.

The game simply cannot generate players with the same level of overall quality that exists in the database at game start. Top players at game start are practically flawless in hidden mental attributes and the distribution of playing attributes, but all newgens I have seen have atleast one random and critical player destroying flaw.

Post screenshots of the profile of any of those newgen players and then compare them to the profiles of 180+ PA players that exist in the database at game start. There is a world of difference between the overall quality.

Not convinced such a small sample can be generalised (n~=50?) across all CA/PA bands especially since you've filtered out 120-200/180-200.

I think Genie's Best Rating could be useful here. Argue the weightings of attributes and then compare Best Rating percentages several decades in the future, over all CAs and PAs. Would be possible to do sensitivity analysis on these weightings too to give us further detail on the plausibility of the approach.

I personally think there are far too many "very good" regens generated - there should be a very low number of truly good players, while the last screenshot seems to show that there are 3-4 players in or near this bracket, with 3-4 capable of reaching it fairly soon thanks to age. Add in the sheer number of players with very high PAs (180+).

Is it just me then who doesn't ever seem to get these sort of regens showing up? I rarely ever see a regen with Best Potential Ability of >80% and if I do, then as SFraser says, they quite often have horribly weighted attributes making them only average overall anyway. I had a Man U game where in 10 seasons only 1 regen popped up with >80%, a striker with ~82%, but his finishing, composure, heading and jumping were all mediocre, and he had high stats in areas I don't really care much for, like 19-20 free-kick taking, penalty taking, and if irc a tackling of 16. It's depressing getting 10 seasons in and not looking forward to having to deal in the transfer market.

As they say, the distribution of attributes and hiddens ones is the main argument. I don't use FM Genie but it is truly hard to see world class regens in the same quality as their real life counterparts. Like they might have attributes in unimportant areas, and some horrible hidden attribute. Like.. unmotivated, low determination, low pressure, or injury prone etc. It is hard to find those awesome 20 det 20 influence super loyal world class players like gerrard with just as awesome hidden attributes in regens.

PA only tells about the maximum permissible stats, not how they are actually distributed.

what a naive post by ProEvoRules. most of the regens have something wrong with them because there is no rule to the madness. their mental stats are totally random.

Top marks for missing the whole point.

The problem with newgens is NOT their CA/PA levels but the strength and distribution of their attributes. Decisions 3, Consistency 6, Important Matches 5, Anticipation 2, Natural Fitness 4 are regular player destroying attributes that pop up in newgens irrespective of their CA and PA.

The game simply cannot generate players with the same level of overall quality that exists in the database at game start. Top players at game start are practically flawless in hidden mental attributes and the distribution of playing attributes, but all newgens I have seen have atleast one random and critical player destroying flaw.

Post screenshots of the profile of any of those newgen players and then compare them to the profiles of 180+ PA players that exist in the database at game start. There is a world of difference between the overall quality.

You are right, but I believe the comparison with the starting db has some flaw to it as well.

I firmly believe that the real players in the databse are in fact less rounded irl than they are in the game.

I remember that when I was a researcher myself, every time I was unsure what figure to give to a player in a certain attribute I always used to favour a figure which he should have in his position when in doubt. Certainly neither I nor any other researcher will choose any value but for the ones he thinks is right to the best of his conscience, but judging from my own experience it's really difficult to get things really right and when in doubt, the chosen values will always appear a bit more well-rounded than they probably are.

This proves nothing...

The problem isn't we don't get enough 180+PA newgens... the problem is most of said newgens often are flawed, so their CA points get "wasted" on irrelevant attributes, much to the detriment of key attributes for the player's position.

The striker has terrible natural fitness, can't jump and has the balance of a drunken toddler... Not to mention his barely average mental stats...

This is the BEST newgen keeper in the whole game, despite having better than average mental stats is just average at Rushing Out, can't jump and will probably give away a lot of dangerous returns.

Last, but not least, the Poster Boy for all the "Useless DC/MC Newgens" FM loves so much to produce... There are literally DOZENS of DC/DM/MC of all ability levels who share this woeful pattern...

Pacey like a world class winger, but totally unable to fight to get the ball, poor at marking, and with terrible mental attributes as the icing on the crappy cake...

He can't mark, can't keep his position, doesn't move well without the ball, lacks aggression, flair and concentration...

And it's no use retraining him as a winger, because he can't cross or pass to save his life!

And keep in mind this is the best in his "role", so just imagine how useless can be his "cousin" rated CA120/PA150

So if those are some of the most talented newgens the game can produce, it's not difficult to see why the lots of us who enjoy playing one [two, three or ten] steps below the World Class level are severely disapponted and frustrated by the newgens this year too...

RBKalle:

The first one could potentially be a good attacking midfielder. Balance and off the ball are concerning but not every world class player is perfect in every area.

Not sure how jumping affects goalkeepers (there's aerial ability).

The last one could become a fast version of Mascherano (passing 13 IIRC). The tackling, work rate and pace-related attributes would make him a decent box-to-box destroyer and with sufficient training you may be able to raise his passing attribute up several notches (14, say).

I somewhat agree. Most that disturbs me are players (mentioned DC/MC) who have good heading, but poor jumping. What can you do with heading if you can't jump? At least from my managerial point of view - jumping/heading is already 50% of what DC should do. If you can't do that, you've failed even if you're excellent tackler/marker/runner/passer

and with sufficient training you may be able to raise his passing attribute up several notches (14, say).

Which leads to another question: It's all good when human managers can spot these flaws and focus the players' training on either improving a certain attribute or to another position. But are the AI managers smart enough to do that?

RBKalle, I think you are overstating the problem a bit here.

Indeed the striker is seriously lacking jumping and balance, but he could be a great advanced forward. And yet is CA is just 128 yet, so he's far from being a finished product and a good player at his CA level.

For the keeper and the defender you pointed at weaknesses, but first they are both not 'useless' in the areas you criticise (sometimes even double-figure attributes) and again in case of the defender we are just talking about a 141 CA player as of yet.

I'm not saying that there is no issue in general, but we should not make it bigger than it is and some of that may as I said even be more realistic than the all-rounded attributes of the starting db.

I somewhat agree. Most that disturbs me are players (mentioned DC/MC) who have good heading, but poor jumping. What can you do with heading if you can't jump? At least from my managerial point of view - jumping/heading is already 50% of what DC should do. If you can't do that, you've failed even if you're excellent tackler/marker/runner/passer

There are a lot of short centre-backs who have done really well (Baresi, Cannavaro, etc.). Not forgetting it is possible they are simply converted midfielders in that screenshot so they simply take some of the better attributes (i.e. tackling) and possibly apply positioning and anticipation to make up for it.

That player would be a decent wide centre-back in a 3-5-2, for example.

This is why I now use FMRTE as I'm so tired of not being able to play a long term game because of regens that just aren't good enough. You can bump up a load of young players stats like natural fitness etc and check there progress to see how they turn out. The down side is it ruins the game a bit as you know what players to look for, but for me, it's the lesser of two evils. Either you can play a long term game with FMRTE at a high level, or you cant without it unless you're playing low level football. This seriously needs to be addressed in the next version of FM as I would much rather not have to use cheats to play a long term game.

On topic - @OP, you completely miss the point. A central defender could have a very high CA but when he has 5 natural fitness and 5 jumping but all his other stats are great, he is useless, yet the game will recognise him as being great.

This proves nothing...

The problem isn't we don't get enough 180+PA newgens...

Excellent post, Perfectly highlights the problem.

nothing like having a RB with 19/20 pace/accel, but 8 work rate, 6 tackling, 10 marking, 4 dribbling,8 crossing, and 8-10 work rate....

One of the best regen sidebacks in my freaking game..........

to me i think the main problem are the CBs, its making the game much easier because most of the opponents CBs have low positiong and/or jumping, so now i have 16 games in Serie A and ive scored 40 goals and they only scored 6 against me, since their strikers have low composure and/or off the ball, i do have some amazing players for my team, most of them i bought young and developed them, and they have almost no flaws in key attributes, but the AI doesnt seem to be able to do that.

RBKalle:

The first one could potentially be a good attacking midfielder. Balance and off the ball are concerning but not every world class player is perfect in every area.

RBKalle, I think you are overstating the problem a bit here.

Indeed the striker is seriously lacking jumping and balance, but he could be a great advanced forward. And yet is CA is just 128 yet, so he's far from being a finished product and a good player at his CA level.

Look at the Strikers Flair, Off The Ball, Consistency, Ambition, Temperament and Pressure as well as his Physical stats. He is a dire, dire player that will never have good movement, never try anything much risky, wont perform to his CA level very often and ontop of that will not be able to handle pressure, will not respond well to anything you say and will not improve very quickly.

While his playing stats means he could be used as an attacking midfielder or whatever, his mental stats mean he will always be a terrible player that causes problems and cannot perform.

The problem is not that individual newgens might have flaws, but that all newgens have atleast one of these glaring flaws. No newgen can reach the overall standard of even "average" top level players, and certainly never reach the same overall level as the top five starting players for each position.

Look at the newgen GK, he has overall good stats with a few minor flaws in his playing profile, that's okay, that's acceptable. Look at his Pressure and Temperament, the player is a disaster of personality akin to Robinho or Adriano.

These are not isolated examples, this is a trend in newgens I have never seen broken. Newgens simply cannot ever match the overall quality of players that exist in the database at game start.

These are not isolated examples, this is a trend in newgens I have never seen broken. Newgens simply cannot ever match the overall quality of players that exist in the database at game start.

In all honesty, I think that's a shortcoming of the database rather than the newgens.

Every player in the world has flaws, even major ones. It's just harder for a researcher to come to terms with that flaw and represent it.

I remain to argue that the real life top players do have some of these flaws as well. They are just not in the FM db.

Some flaws yes. But when half the regens have work rate 5, natural fitness 5, consistency 2 there's definitely a problem.

Not all players are going to be consistently good, hard working behemoths who want to play every game and one or two flaws (even major ones i.e. Anelka's big sulk/laziness etc) are fine. But it's when the players are crippled in 4,5,6,20 different stats that the problems really begin and sadly 95% of regens fall in to that category.

Look at the Strikers Flair, Off The Ball, Consistency, Ambition, Temperament and Pressure as well as his Physical stats. He is a dire, dire player that will never have good movement, never try anything much risky, wont perform to his CA level very often and ontop of that will not be able to handle pressure, will not respond well to anything you say and will not improve very quickly.

He's 17! Being an AM/F C he will be heavily biased towards developing his movement (off the ball). Consistency is something he develops with age and those poor personality attributes need to be ironed out through tutoring. Plenty of youngsters are talented but have stupid attitudes.

He won't have the best movement in the world and will be rather predictable but he will become a technical maestro. Things like concentration, pace and anticipation mean he could become someone who is really good at ruining teams who miss the offside trap even with his lack of movement. Yes he's flawed but with his age he can be trained to iron out those flaws somewhat.

Some strikers are predictable and easy to mark but are still good players.

Look at the newgen GK, he has overall good stats with a few minor flaws in his playing profile, that's okay, that's acceptable. Look at his Pressure and Temperament, the player is a disaster of personality akin to Robinho or Adriano.

Oddly enough Robinho and Adriano are still good players.

Pressure is fine - some players are simply rubbish under pressure. Poor temperament is not really an issue for a goalkeeper because it's not like he's likely to go sliding into bad tackles when angry as a goalkeeper. Plus these can be ironed out with tutoring.

In all honesty, I think that's a shortcoming of the database rather than the newgens.

Every player in the world has flaws, even major ones. It's just harder for a researcher to come to terms with that flaw and represent it.

I remain to argue that the real life top players do have some of these flaws as well. They are just not in the FM db.

That could well be true, but either way it is still a gameplay problem that newgens cannot match the quality of player available at game start. Whether the starting players are far too positively defined or newgens are crippled the issue is the same.

He's 17! Being an AM/F C he will be heavily biased towards developing his movement (off the ball). Consistency is something he develops with age and those poor personality attributes need to be ironed out through tutoring. Plenty of youngsters are talented but have stupid attitudes.

Consistency very rarely changes, and Mentoring does not have anywhere the effect you imply here. Even if Consistency and Mental Traits could improve without end, there is still the problem of achieving that level of development with a significantly hampered youngster.

While many players do have stupid attitudes, it is not acceptable that the starting database if full of players with high quality levels for all relevant attributes while all regens contain atleast one crucial and critical flaw.

The fundamental problem is the comparison between regens and players that exist in the database. You can reason that newgens should have inferior Mental Traits and that is fine, but when newgens cannot ever achieve the same overall level of ability as pre-defined starting players, it is simply not acceptable.

I don't know if there are too many flawless players out there... Messi is short, Ronaldo is selfish, Kaká inflexible, Rooney temperamental...

I have no problem if there are little-to-none flawless players in-game because there are little-to-none flawless players in real life.

That could well be true, but either way it is still a gameplay problem that newgens cannot match the quality of player available at game start. Whether the starting players are far too positively defined or newgens are crippled the issue is the same.

I wrote what I wrote above as a researcher who firmly believes the problem is in the db. Breaking one really good thing about the newgen system is not the way to go imo.

I don't know if there are too many flawless players out there... Messi is short, Ronaldo is selfish, Kaká inflexible, Rooney temperamental...

I have no problem if there are little-to-none flawless players in-game because there are little-to-none flawless players in real life.

Yes, they may each have a flaw, but they are more than made up for by the fact that in almost every other area they are exceptional.

Regens, however, are often extremely flawed in AT LEAST one key positional attribute (but more often than not there are flawed in several), and then also have terrible mental/professional attributes as well.

As SFraser has already said, whether or not the starting players are overly good is irrelevant, the gap between the starting talent and the regens should not be so considerable.

I don't know if there are too many flawless players out there... Messi is short, Ronaldo is selfish, Kaká inflexible, Rooney temperamental...

I have no problem if there are little-to-none flawless players in-game because there are little-to-none flawless players in real life.

Messi's height wasn't his only weakness.

One of the first things that Guardiola did after becoming manager of Barcelona was ban Messi from playing playstation all the time, get him to sleep regularly and give up pizza for every meal for fish and salad. There's just a small example of poor professionalism from a youngster which had to be corrected in order for him to fulfill his potential.

A problem is that increasing some of these stats to a high level is nigh on impossible in the game.

A player's natural fitness will maybe increase by 2 over their entire career so if they start with a natural fitness rating of 6 they're pretty much ruined.

Similarly with say concentration, that can increase by 2 a season which is great but well in that season a lot of his other stats will have increased by 2 too and by the end of a couple of seasons he'll be pushing his PA hardlimit. So if his concentration isn't 12+ to begin with he'll never make a good defender.

A problem is that increasing some of these stats to a high level is nigh on impossible in the game.

A player's natural fitness will maybe increase by 2 over their entire career so if they start with a natural fitness rating of 6 they're pretty much ruined.

Never seen a player who started to decline physically at age 27-28 and never re-captured his form as a 20-21 year old? A certain Michael Owen comes to mind for me. There's also Harry Kewell.

Similarly with say concentration, that can increase by 2 a season which is great but well in that season a lot of his other stats will have increased by 2 too and by the end of a couple of seasons he'll be pushing his PA hardlimit. So if his concentration isn't 12+ to begin with he'll never make a good defender.

What you mean is that if his concentration isn't 12+ he probably won't have a long career for a big club. Doesn't mean he won't be a good defender in every aspect but would be unreliable and end up playing for a mid table team.

I'm not saying there aren't real world parallels though Michael Owen was rather hampered through a incredibly long string of injuries so it's not quite the same thing as being unable to play more than 1 match in a row from the age of 16.

Secondly isn't that the point?

In real life you have players who are sporadically world beaters but are usually just average (Walcott for example), and players who are truly world class (Rooney, Torres, Messi) etc.

This games top regens despite their 190+PAs almost always fall into the former category and pretty much never into the latter category caused by the fact they tend to be loaded to the teeth with useless stats (I just had a regen striker with 19 for tackling yet only 8 for composure) and having some very key stats so woefully low that they can't be fixed no matter the effort you put in.

I'm not saying there aren't real world parallels though Michael Owen was rather hampered through a incredibly long string of injuries so it's not quite the same thing as being unable to play more than 1 match in a row from the age of 16.

Secondly isn't that the point?

In real life you have players who are sporadically world beaters but are usually just average (Walcott for example), and players who are truly world class (Rooney, Torres, Messi) etc.

This games top regens despite their 190+PAs almost always fall into the former category and pretty much never into the latter category caused by the fact they tend to be loaded to the teeth with useless stats (I just had a regen striker with 19 for tackling yet only 8 for composure) and having some very key stats so woefully low that they can't be fixed no matter the effort you put in.

Notice that the game produces a large number of high PA players, but that doesn't mean that this PA is reached or that the player is able to play at that high PA for a long period of time.

You could restrict the number of 190+ PA players that are created and ensure that they all turn into flawless players, or you could produce several 190+ PA players than necessary and ensure that many of them never actually make it.

The latter is more realistic, no? After all, a 190+ CA player only comes along once in a decade. If you're lucky, twice.

Edit: So in essence what you are arguing is that regens should be of lower quality and be jack of all trade types whose careers are predictable. Pretty boring imo.

i've never seen so much crap in my life, i've played this game well into it and why do i see great players coming through, yes theres a few odd players with odd stats but the majority of regens are fine in my game. Some have odd weakness's but like the guy said, theres no perfect player, If you have players with odd stats why dont u retrain them, Rio ferdinand in his youth was a Striker, He wasnt good enough so he got put to a CB.

Look at this pic, 2 players both are wingers, Ones real and ones a regen,

who would u have?, the selfless regen or the selfish ronaldo?, The regens weak in the air but can help defending, Ronaldo does not help defending

I've had games over 10 seasons where not a single regen player has had even the potential to be as good as any of the top players at the beginning of the game (note: we're not talking about whether or not their potential can be realised. We're talking theoretical if I buy him, he stays injury free, gets the best coaching custom tailored for him, has the best tutors etc)

The stat distributions are not in any way or form indicative of real life. 19 tacking/8 composure for a striker simply will not happen anywhere in the world. I challenge you to find a striker in the world who is better at tackling than the best center backs in the world but skies the ball when one on one with a keeper. The regens in this game have far too many useless stats that simply should and would not happen.

Weaknesses are fine, real life players have weaknesses. But the game produces far too many intense weaknesses that you can't correct because their ability pool is loaded with useless stats so they peak before you can do anything about it.

Also at the beginning of the game there are around 75 -10 players (maximum potential band) of which around 20-30 are already world beaters or can be made into world class superstars.

10 years laters there are still around 75 -10 players but only 1-2 which can be made into world class superstars at most and a lot of the times none at all.

And you still don't see a problem with the system?

The stat distributions are not in any way or form indicative of real life. 19 tacking/8 composure for a striker simply will not happen anywhere in the world. I challenge you to find a striker in the world who is better at tackling than the best center backs in the world but skies the ball when one on one with a keeper. The regens in this game have far too many useless stats that simply should and would not happen.

Do you have a screenshot of that player?

Also at the beginning of the game there are around 75 -10 players (maximum potential band) of which around 20-30 are already world beaters or can be made into world class superstars.

10 years laters there are still around 75 -10 players but only 1-2 which can be made into world class superstars at most and a lot of the times none at all.

And you still don't see a problem with the system?

Nope. There are far too many players with high potential in the db.

Visiting the data forums and browsing the topics explains why this is the case pretty quickly.

I have done the analysis. The quality of players in 2022 is much much closer to the starting database than the quality of players in 2016. This is precisely because of the large number of players with high potential in the db (and especially since they are also coupled with high ambition, determination and professionalism in the database - researchers are simply asked to give every chance for a player to succeed by giving high values for such attributes in addition to the potentials). What you experience is a bubble which is a factor in the first 10 seasons of the game. When the bubble dissipates, it seems like newgens are poor. On the contrary, newgens are fine, it's the large number of players in the db with high potentials and flawless profiles which creates the illusion.

Number of players with 150+ CA

2009: 367

2016: 636

2022: 441

Number of players with 160+ CA

2009: 130

2016: 270

2022: 162

If you let the game continue, by 2025 the numbers get to be almost equal to 2009.

If you have players with odd stats why dont u retrain them, Rio ferdinand in his youth was a Striker, He wasnt good enough so he got put to a CB.

Problem with anyone trying to do this is that the player will still be a natural striker, but will also need to be training as a CB for life or he will forget how to play there

I agree 100% with the turkish researcher, Players are fine, the regens in my game 15 years in are looking good, Theres plennnnnnttyy of players coming through which my scouts have noticed. I've seen a few sketchy players but on the general good players have good stats to began with and good traning they become great.

Nope. There are far too many players with high potential in the db.

Visiting the data forums and browsing the topics explains why this is the case pretty quickly.

I have done the analysis. The quality of players in 2022 is much much closer to the starting database than the quality of players in 2016. This is precisely because of the large number of players with high potential in the db (and especially since they are also coupled with high ambition, determination and professionalism in the database - researchers are simply asked to give every chance for a player to succeed by giving high values for such attributes in addition to the potentials). What you experience is a bubble which is a factor in the first 10 seasons of the game. When the bubble dissipates, it seems like newgens are poor. On the contrary, newgens are fine, it's the large number of players in the db with high potentials and flawless profiles which creates the illusion.

Number of players with 150+ CA

2009: 367

2016: 636

2022: 441

Number of players with 160+ CA

2009: 130

2016: 270

2022: 162

If you let the game continue, by 2025 the numbers get to be almost equal to 2009.

Let me make this clear to you. CA/PA is irrelevant. What matters is specific attributes that define behaviour. This is where the problems exist.

Let me also make it clear to you that while you are defining Turkish player attributes, I am writing the book on training, youth development, and the function and behaviour of attributes. I don't wish to come across as arrogant but you simply cannot dismiss this fundamental gameplay flaw in the manner you or others choose to. It is obvious, prevailent, and it defines user experience of the game. Those that choose to go into this level of gameplay detail cannot avoid having their experience profoundly influenced and disrupted by this massive game mechanic flaw.

perpetua also happens to know the actual intricacies of handing out individual attributes to players, getting information on how they work directly from SI themselves. If anything, he's more informed than you.

Given that this was a response to the thread I started on the regen system, as others have pointed out, the issue in that thread wasn't that quality regens aren't being produced, and using simple PA/CA and then posting screens of a single regen or two does not reflect the points made in the post or refute them. It's more of a red herring almost, or a strawman fallacy, as you're not arguing the same thing as what was originally argued. The issue was that often these regens are flawed, especially when you look at the hidden attributes. Quite often the face-value visible stats are good, but when cycling through the players and also looking at the hidden attributes, there seems to be a massively uneven distribution of fundamentally flawed players with weak stats (and very few players who are the "full package").

So let's look at one example of regen system complaints relevant to the initial thread (I'll split this over 3 posts due to the number of images involved). I'm in the year 2022, having gone on holiday from 09-10 (since the very start of the game), and have saved the same game twice using different names - one was for the very start of the game so that I keep a copy of the start file for comparison reasons, the other was where the progress was saved. I'll be using FM Genie 10 to show the stats. No editing whatsoever has taken place, either in the database or using a real time editor - these are all game generated stats only. Furthermore, by not being a manager, I also have had no influence on training of players etc.

This is the database loaded (10.3, Large, main footballing nations):

For example, in 2022, this player is at Barcelona and is one of the best regens in the game, having been developed by them, and has been a runner up for World Player of the Year. His face-value stats are actually better than 2010's Andres Iniesta's. Comparison of the two players' face value stats:

However, when you compare the hidden stats, granted this regen's isn't the worst ever, it's still disproportionate to what Iniesta's is, and indeed what the hidden attributes of many top players in the game are:

Here you can see the regen's hidden stats are relatively weak in important matches, professionalism, sportsmanship and temperament. The point is that this low or random distribution of hidden attributes happens very frequently in FM (and there are far worse examples of this) so much so that it becomes pretty rare to see a quality regen accompanied by good hidden attributes. Which is completely in contrast to the start game playing field. I appreciate that this is only one example and I've already stated that one example doesn't prove a rule, but I feel that this is one example that is symptomatic of the problems in the game. Yes, you do get regens with great stats and strong hidden stats, in fact I've got one in the game who is clearly class in both areas, but that's more of a rarity and I've only found one like that. If I cycle through all the >80% players in 2022, or >175 CA, over half are players with horrible and weak hidden stats, and most of the rest are just about passable as OK.

Now, onto a more important point. The quantity/volume of top class players and their distribution in the game is also percieved to be a problem here - in my experience and the experience of many players of FM, the volume of quality players always lowers significantly over time, whereby some positions see a major slump in ability compared to others (e.g. centreback/goalkeepers).

To expand on this, at the start of the game, this is the distribution of centrebacks that are >80% suitability for the centreback position according to FM Genie's criteria.

We can see that there are 12 as filtered by FM Genie at the very start of the game (before a single ball is kicked within the FM World). If I were to play out the first few seasons, that number would increase. Most of them are genuine world class defenders in the real game, so although maybe there's a few other players I'd add to that list, it's still an acceptable number based on that filter.

In 2022, these are there centrebacks that are >80% suitability for the centreback position according to FM Genie.

That's right. There are only TWO CENTREBACKS in the entire game in 2022 actually rated as being good (>80%) by FM Genie. And only one of them is a regen. And look at the highlighted regen centrebac's hidden attributes. They're pretty shocking for someone who according to FM Genie, is the best centreback in the game in 2022. Important Matches, Sportsmanship and Temperament are again a problem here (and the latter two being especially major problems with regens - more than half the regen kids are angry, dirty little nutcases in the future according to FM).

And that's just scratching the surface of the FM regen system problems. It'd be possible to go into alot more detail posting screenshots regarding uneven hidden attribute distribution, player specific position weaknesses (e.g. so many centrebacks with weak jumping), strikers with 15 tackling, etc etc, and compare them to the stats of the Lampards, Messi's, Gerrards, Essiens, etc, but that'd be time consuming and I'm not prepared to do that at this point in time.

Let me make this clear to you. CA/PA is irrelevant. What matters is specific attributes that define behaviour. This is where the problems exist.

Let me also make it clear to you that while you are defining Turkish player attributes, I am writing the book on training, youth development, and the function and behaviour of attributes. I don't wish to come across as arrogant but you simply cannot dismiss this fundamental gameplay flaw in the manner you or others choose to. It is obvious, prevailent, and it defines user experience of the game. Those that choose to go into this level of gameplay detail cannot avoid having their experience profoundly influenced and disrupted by this massive game mechanic flaw.

Let me make this clear to you. The CA/PA example I gave above was in support of my earlier comment that unfortunately the db is weak when it comes to reflecting players' weaknesses. It was an example of the optimism displayed by researchers as a whole (and I include myself in this).

I fully understand what you are saying but I believe your argument is invalid as you are trying to correct what I believe to be human error (the db) by altering a system which is rather good (the newgen system).

Let me make this clear to you. The CA/PA example I gave above was in support of my earlier comment that unfortunately the db is weak when it comes to reflecting players' weaknesses. It was an example of the optimism displayed by researchers as a whole (and I include myself in this).

I fully understand what you are saying but I believe your argument is invalid as you are trying to correct what I believe to be human error (the db) by altering a system which is rather good (the newgen system).

The newgen system is not good if it cannot match the quality of players that exist at game start.

The researchers chosen are not good if they produce inaccurate results, but that has nothing to do with the regen system.

The newgen system is flawed because it does not match, cannot match, cannot continue the type and style and quality of player that exists at game start. Whether the researchers are accurate or inaccurate is irrelevant. What matters is a consistent game either way.

It does not matter how utterly poor the researchers are, the game should generate the same kind of player we are used to playing with, and not generate some completely random alternative conception.

Whether the newgen system or researchers are at fault, it is still SI's mistake. Either they change the newgen system or get better researchers.

I do not care which, I want a more consistent game.

Whether the newgen system or researchers are at fault, it is still SI's mistake. Either they change the newgen system or get better researchers.

I do not care which, I want a more consistent game.

Why are you arguing with me if you don't care which?

Why are you arguing with me if you don't care which?

He's arguing with you because you keep trying to justify that the regens reflect what should be realistic, and that the starting players are misrepresented.

He's saying that this irrelevant and that the two need to be balanced, either reduce the starting players or improve the regens. But saying the regens are okay because they are more realistic isn't a good enough excuse.

Why are you arguing with me if you don't care which?

Because you bring researchers into question in an attempt to defend the system, which not only seems like a massive cop-out but also a complete dismissal of the problem.

You are one of those types of poster where if I agree with you or do not argue against your unrelated problem, it ends up with me admitting there is no problem with regens, and I have absolutely no interest in playing those games.

There is a problem with newgens, and no amount of deflecting the issue, missing the point or arguing with red herrings is going to change that.

The reason I am arguing with you is because you are wrong. Whether the newgen system is theoretically perfect or not, whether the researchers are all failures or not, the newgen system needs changed to better reflect the type of player that exists at game start.

He's arguing with you because you keep trying to justify that the regens reflect what should be realistic, and that the starting players are misrepresented.

He's saying that this irrelevant and that the two need to be balanced, either reduce the starting players or improve the regens. But saying the regens are okay because they are more realistic isn't a good enough excuse.

Exactly.

The reason I am arguing with you is because you are wrong. Whether the newgen system is theoretically perfect or not, whether the researchers are all failures or not, the database needs changed to better reflect the type of player that exists at game start.

Also plausible, no?

If two things are not similar, then it doesn't mean that one side is definitely wrong. It could be the other, or both.

Also plausible, no?

If two things are not similar, then it doesn't mean that one side is definitely wrong. It could be the other, or both.

What's easier to tweak and adjust? The input of a couple of hundred researchers or a system of generating new players?

Think this stuff through before you post.