FM09 - Can we finally have match results actually be affected by player skill?

One of the most annoying things in FM08 and in past version is that matches that are "simmed" and not "played" are only determined by club reputation. So you could fill Chelsea up with a team of players with a CA of 1 and if you aren't running the premiership in full detail then Chelsea will still finish around the top when they should finish last. The reason this is done is for faster results from the matches which are simmed. But seriously SI should be able to program a better engine for siming matches. IF they are able to make such a great game as FM they can create an algorithm to sim matches which takes into account player skill while maintaining a reasonably similar speed. Computers are amazingly fast and can perform millions of calculations in a second. They could even cut corners and just use a player's CA and not all his attributes as long as the player's skill plays some sort of part instead of just the club reputation and a few other factors affecting the result of these non detail matches.

One of the most annoying things in FM08 and in past version is that matches that are "simmed" and not "played" are only determined by club reputation. So you could fill Chelsea up with a team of players with a CA of 1 and if you aren't running the premiership in full detail then Chelsea will still finish around the top when they should finish last. The reason this is done is for faster results from the matches which are simmed. But seriously SI should be able to program a better engine for siming matches. IF they are able to make such a great game as FM they can create an algorithm to sim matches which takes into account player skill while maintaining a reasonably similar speed. Computers are amazingly fast and can perform millions of calculations in a second. They could even cut corners and just use a player's CA and not all his attributes as long as the player's skill plays some sort of part instead of just the club reputation and a few other factors affecting the result of these non detail matches.

If you can tell me how being 2-0 down then making three substitutes of your own which are clearly not pre-determined before coming back to win 3-2 thus proving the results are not fixed means that the game is a pre-determined result I'll give you a tenner.

Add to the scenario that it's a lower league team that's come back from 2-0 down against a much bigger and better (with therefore a higher reputation) team which I've managed to do before as manager of the lower league team.

I think he is talking about when the league isn't on full detail.

If you want a realistic Fm 08 , loading all leagues is nessasary. Its annoying and really slow if you dont have a 4 Ghz quad core with minimum 2 GB RAM...

to do that DS you just need to go to detail level, and up the level of whatever leagues are running, obviously this adds processing time as it'll take as long to simulate those matches as your own.

I generally don't mind b/c when i'm running an 'around the world game' and i'm in italy, i don't care what happens in the premier league (until i want to take a job there).

however some simple improvements to the simulating algorithm could be made, to take more account of squad/manager quality without adding too much processing time?

One can only assume you'd be dropping Chelsea players to CA 1 as an experiment, or because you're managing a rival like Man U/Liverpool. Either way, full detail would be on or you should turn it on to take the CA into account.

If you're playing just for playing and managing outside the Premiership, the current match simulator is fine. I actually think it's quite clever.

So, why would you need this? If it's part of an experiment of you want to ruin Chelsea as a rival, you should turn full detail on (if it isn't already). And if you're playing for fun and realism, editing in such an unsubtle way ruins the game experience, thus there'd be no need to use this match sim you suggest, as realistically it wouldn't happen (it would ruin your experience).

There's a lot of waffle in there but I hope you realise my point.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">you could fill Chelsea up with a team of players with a CA of 1 and if you aren't running the premiership in full detail then Chelsea will still finish around the top when they should finish last. The reason this is done is for faster results from the matches which are simmed. But seriously SI should be able to program a better engine for siming matches. IF they are able to make such a great game as FM </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easily solved - run the league on full detail - if you don't have the required PC to be able to do this it isn't SIs fault....

There is no problem whatsoever with the current system - if you are playing in the same league, player stats DO matter, if you are playing in a different league, club rep is important, if you don't like this, just raise league detail.

I truly fail to see what you are moaning about.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Easily solved - run the league on full detail - if you don't have the required PC to be able to do this it isn't SIs fault....

There is no problem whatsoever with the current system - if you are playing in the same league, player stats DO matter, if you are playing in a different league, club rep is important, if you don't like this, just raise league detail.

I truly fail to see what you are moaning about. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is that this approach is laughably simplistic and SI should have done a better job and not just use the reputation for every f'in thing.

Since there are no computers on the market or will be for the next five years that are even remotely capable of running all the leagues in full detail. Most people dont realise that by default only the league they are playing in is actually calculated and everything else is just fake. Its SIs fault and not the players fault that he doesnt own a computer from the future.

The reputation is affected by the level of ability at the club. Without editing the database it is by and large an accurate reflection of the club's ability, so I see no problem there.

If you edit CA, then you should edit reputation as well.If you do half the job, then don't be surprised to get anaomalous results.

Wow! I am a bit surprised at the replys. The fanboys have struck again. I thought even they would acknowledge that is a pathetic way of determining results. It seems like they didnt even read my post. I just want player skills to have some sort of baring on results for games that arent in full detail. I dont want toi play them in full detail because it is a waste of time. Is it really to much to ask that players do have some effect on the results? Determining these results by reputation is completely unrealistic and just clearly lazy from SI TBH. I dont want the same amount of detail as a full detail game because it will be to slow but I am sure SI's programmers are talented enough to be able to write some more efficient code where players skills will also affect the match results while not slowing down the processing time by much. I am a programmer and I know its doable because I know how incredibly fast computers are and a few more calculations will take only a few millisecond per game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by playmaker:

The reputation is affected by the level of ability at the club. Without editing the database it is by and large an accurate reflection of the club's ability, so I see no problem there.

If you edit CA, then you should edit reputation as well.If you do half the job, then don't be surprised to get anaomalous results. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but what about the in game changes of players and reputation? For example if a top 4 team in the EPL went bankrupt and the matches wernt being played in full detail then they would sell there stars and have only some crap players and still end up being at the top. Unrealistic results. What about a takeover where the new owners inject some cash into the team? They will buy some quality players but still end up having the same results as if they had there same old crap players.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:

One of the most annoying things in FM08 and in past version is that matches that are "simmed" and not "played" are only determined by club reputation. So you could fill Chelsea up with a team of players with a CA of 1 and if you aren't running the premiership in full detail then Chelsea will still finish around the top when they should finish last. The reason this is done is for faster results from the matches which are simmed. But seriously SI should be able to program a better engine for siming matches. IF they are able to make such a great game as FM they can create an algorithm to sim matches which takes into account player skill while maintaining a reasonably similar speed. Computers are amazingly fast and can perform millions of calculations in a second. They could even cut corners and just use a player's CA and not all his attributes as long as the player's skill plays some sort of part instead of just the club reputation and a few other factors affecting the result of these non detail matches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely, there is a contradiction in your original request, highlighted in bold, that they have already created this scenario that you are requesting, called full detail.

You have reacted to anyone arguing this point, by calling them a fanboy, but the reality is that SI have stated that if you want a fully engrossing game you need to run as many, if not all, leagues in full detail.

You have stated here that computers are amazingly quick, but then argue later in the thread that computers couldn't cope with the requirements of full detail.

They either can or they can't, and if they can't how could SI change things without making the requirments on computers, beyond most specs?

I know there was a site which did an experiment once: they changed all reputations and looked what then happened: the big teams weren't so big anymore. So reputation really influences the game: I know a club's reputation can go up; but can it also go down? or will in the year 2050 Chelsea, Barca, Bayern,... still be world famous nevertheless they always ended 8th. (it's an example)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by polegategavin:

You have reacted to anyone arguing this point, by calling them a fanboy, but the reality is that SI have stated that if you want a fully engrossing game you need to run as many, if not all, leagues in full detail.

You have stated here that computers are amazingly quick, but then argue later in the thread that computers couldn't cope with the requirements of full detail.

They either can or they can't, and if they can't how could SI change things without making the requirments on computers, beyond most specs? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well its not like SI only have an option of fully simulating matches and just using the reputation to create the result. What he requested is that SI uses a more complex algorithm to simulate matches that are not calculated in full detail. Such an algorithm could still be hundreds of times faster than the full detail match while giving us a more realistic result. It would also be nice if we could enable full match processing for those clubs that our players are loaned to.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:

I know there was a site which did an experiment once: they changed all reputations and looked what then happened: the big teams weren't so big anymore. So reputation really influences the game: I know a club's reputation can go up; but can it also go down? or will in the year 2050 Chelsea, Barca, Bayern,... still be world famous nevertheless they always ended 8th. (it's an example) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK the reputation changes based on the clubs success so its possible that after along time some clubs have a much lower reputation than what they started with. League reputation on the other doesnt change. (again AFAIK)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

Well its not like SI only have an option of fully simulating matches and just using the reputation to create the result. What he requested is that SI uses a more complex algorithm to simulate matches that are not calculated in full detail. Such an algorithm could still be hundreds of times faster than the full detail match while giving us a more realistic result. It would also be nice if we could enable full match processing for those clubs that our players are loaned to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok...i am no computer/algorithm expert but i think the results are simulated by comparison. Comparing two things is a lot faster than comparing between a minimum of 22 things. If SI goes with the OP's way and try to sim the result based on the players' skills then the game will be slower and the pc specs will be high. Now a majority of us might have high end pcs but there are some who play the game which just about meet the minimum specs(i must know...i played two versions on such a pc )

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tingting:

ok...i am no computer/algorithm expert but i think the results are simulated by comparison. Comparing two things is a lot faster than comparing between a minimum of 22 things. If SI goes with the OP's way and try to sim the result based on the players' skills then the game will be slower and the pc specs will be high. Now a majority of us might have high end pcs but there are some who play the game which just about meet the minimum specs(i must know...i played two versions on such a pc ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference should be negligible. Other parts of FM are so much more CPU consuming that improving this would barely make an impact on the performance.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Easily solved - run the league on full detail - if you don't have the required PC to be able to do this it isn't SIs fault....

There is no problem whatsoever with the current system - if you are playing in the same league, player stats DO matter, if you are playing in a different league, club rep is important, if you don't like this, just raise league detail.

I truly fail to see what you are moaning about. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most people dont realise that by default only the league they are playing in is actually calculated and everything else is just fake. Its SIs fault and not the players fault that he doesnt own a computer from the future. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This isn't quite correct. A league that has an active human team is run in full detail which uses the detailed match engine.

If other leagues are running in a normal playable state but not full detail then matches are calculated using a cutdown match engine still based on real data and not reputation. Apart from the actual match engine I think the way teams sign players etc is the same between full detail and normal playable.

The view only detail level is useless, teams are totally dumb, i.e don't sign many players etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by polegategavin:

they have already created this scenario that you are requesting, called full detail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You seem to have some difficulties comprehending what I am saying. Since you appear to be of subnormal intelligence I will attempt to explain it again. I dont want to run all games in full detail, I just want players skills to have some sort of effect on match results for games not run in full detail.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by polegategavin:

You have stated here that computers are amazingly quick, but then argue later in the thread that computers couldn't cope with the requirements of full detail.

They either can or they can't, and if they can't how could SI change things without making the requirments on computers, beyond most specs? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could possibly be illiterate as well since you seem incapable of reading correctly. Allow me to reiterate. Computers are amazingly fast and capable of doing millions of calculations a second. I would expect programmers working for SI, a subsidiary of Sega, to be able to program efficiently enough to factor in player ability into the results of games not played in detail while maintaining a similar level of performance. I have previously stated that it would only be a few milliseconds of difference per game. Now running a game in full detail takes a few seconds while running a non detail game takes fractions of a second. It would be the same with player's ability included in the non detail games.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RICO:

If other leagues are running in a normal playable state but not full detail then matches are calculated using a cutdown match engine still based on real data and not reputation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely inaccurate. The matches are determined by reputation and not by player abilities.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

Well its not like SI only have an option of fully simulating matches and just using the reputation to create the result. What he requested is that SI uses a more complex algorithm to simulate matches that are not calculated in full detail. Such an algorithm could still be hundreds of times faster than the full detail match while giving us a more realistic result. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly my point. At least someone seems to understand.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by polegategavin:

they have already created this scenario that you are requesting, called full detail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You seem to have some difficulties comprehending what I am saying. Since you appear to be of subnormal intelligence I will attempt to explain it again. I dont want to run all games in full detail, I just want players skills to have some sort of effect on match results for games not run in full detail.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by polegategavin:

You have stated here that computers are amazingly quick, but then argue later in the thread that computers couldn't cope with the requirements of full detail.

They either can or they can't, and if they can't how could SI change things without making the requirments on computers, beyond most specs? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could possibly be illiterate as well since you seem incapable of reading correctly. Allow me to reiterate. Computers are amazingly fast and capable of doing millions of calculations a second. I would expect programmers working for SI, a subsidiary of Sega, to be able to program efficiently enough to factor in player ability into the results of games not played in detail while maintaining a similar level of performance. I have previously stated that it would only be a few milliseconds of difference per game. Now running a game in full detail takes a few seconds while running a non detail game takes fractions of a second. It would be the same with player's ability included in the non detail games. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why I'm replying to you when you're as obnoxiuosly rude to a reply to your question as this I'm not sure.

However, I can only assume you are a programmer yourself as you seem to have an attitide that you know exactly what should or shouldn't be done by SI. If you are I take my hat off to you, as I do not understand programming, and have never professed to.

I was trying to explain that SI have configured the game to give more accuracy the more detail you have in your individual game. I run with about 25 leagues running and the game seems to be more accurately portraying the abilities of the players signed by the teams, and that the results are more reflective of this.

I respect your points and have some sympathy for your wishes but surely if SI were to implicate your idea what would be the point of the more detailed choice available. My feeling is that half the reason most people buy FM2008 is due to the level of detail you can set.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RICO:

If other leagues are running in a normal playable state but not full detail then matches are calculated using a cutdown match engine still based on real data and not reputation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely inaccurate. The matches are determined by reputation and not by player abilities. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

only when on a view only mode surely?

if a league is in a playable state then detailed match stats are generated for each player.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RICO:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RICO:

If other leagues are running in a normal playable state but not full detail then matches are calculated using a cutdown match engine still based on real data and not reputation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely inaccurate. The matches are determined by reputation and not by player abilities. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

only when on a view only mode surely?

if a league is in a playable state then detailed match stats are generated for each player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. This is why I made the thread. Even in a playable league if matches are not in detail, which they are for most leagues except the one you manage in, so probably the EPL in most cases while the championship, league one etc. wont be and leagues from other countries wont be. If the matches are not in full detail then reputation determines the result and not player skill and then I dont know how stats and ratings are given out but it might be random based on position or something but it might take into account player skill for the giving of stats and ratings but it doesnt take it into account when determining the match result.

As for view-only leagues I never use them because they are pointless as the signing are the same as not having the league run. Do these leagues even have results calculated? I dont know cause I dont play with them.

I meant matches arent in full detail for most leagues/divisions apart from the one you play in, unless you change it.

I stand corrected. I've since started a new game only using maximum detail to get 'real' results in other leagues.

Although SI say it makes no difference it does. There are knock on effects by teams results being calculated this way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aaberdeenn:

If you can tell me how being 2-0 down then making three substitutes of your own which are clearly not pre-determined before coming back to win 3-2 thus proving the results are not fixed means that the game is a pre-determined result I'll give you a tenner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think what it is is that the better the opposing manager is, the better he knowns how to exploit the match engine. he knows what to do when to maximise the possible advantages that the match engine automatically simulating.

e.g. they know when is the opportune time to go 4-2-4 and the best time to go, and i hate this, 1-1-2-3-3.

the 1-1-2-3-3 is the best way to maximise the match engines defensive capabilities.

wonder if this will still be an issue on FM09 ?

This is why I bought a fast computer. If you invest the money, you can crank up settings and get a better gaming experience. Playing Crysis for the 10th time still makes me drool. £1200 well spent!