gonzdons

9.3.0 - has made a terrible game, even worse!

198 posts in this topic

Has anyone else noticed that the latest patch has completely screwed up closing down? I can barely make it a half without having to sub both my ML and MR, and both strikers struggle to see out a game. Obvious decision - reduce closing down. This results in all my players standing off to the extent, that I've actually had an opposing defender, with a long shot rating of 4, score a screamer from thirty yards. Which of course, is "very realistic".

I've hated Football Manager since the whole Champ Man split, and I think that the tactics in the current version are simply ridiculous. Quite frankly, I feel that I shouldn't have to spend hours/days/weeks, reading up on other peoples tactics (TT&F '09, etc), just to be able to play.. a GAME (and don't even get me started on the joke that is the SI instruction manual - my dead Gran, could have written something more intelligible than that drivel)! If I want to dedicate my life to football magement, then I will obtain my UEFA badges and actually become a real manager/coach.. and guess what I'd be paid for it, and wouldn't have wasted my life! FM is after all, supposed to be fun and enjoyable, but for the vast majority of users, this game has now become and absolute pain in the arse to play!

My point really is this - if you are a real manager you are trained to be so, and have the all the necessary "tactics" at your fingertips (IE - you have been taught them). FM '09, however, expects you to have obtained said badges already, and have intricate knowledge of the tactics of world football - which is quite frankly, a load of crap, otherwise we would all be leading real-life teams to the championships of our choosing. "Realism" - my arse!

And to all you "fanboy" idiots out there, FM is supposed to be fun - which it is not, unless you have no actual life to lead of course; FM is supposed to be accessible - it is not (I played Champ Man for the first time when I was 11/12, and absolutely loved it - whereas the current game makes me want to throw my mouse out the window!). FM is supposed to give ordinary armchair fans the excitement of managing their own teams - which it does not, because unless you are a top team, no tactics actually work as they should (and believe me, I have tried).

This is not to mention the fact that the FM researchers are clearly biased morons, eg, nearly every season I start in the SPL, sees ICT finish in the top four, even though IRL, they are just off the bottom - "realistic", eh. And don't get me started on the player ratings in the SPL - unrealistic does not even start to explain it.

I hate FM 2009, then - I've tried all the tactics out there, and quite frankly am not prepared to dedicate my life to what is after all, just a stupid game. I won't be buying another version of this game until the above is fixed, and I know many hundreds of ordinary "champ man" fans whom won't bother either. Well done SI, for creating one of the most disappointing games I have ever played.

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I can't be arsed reading what is clearly an unstructured and unconstructive rant, but I have a few remarks to mark after skimming through your post.

1) If you've hated it since FM2005, why are you still playing?

2) Don't exaggerate. I have yet to read the TT&F guides, or any other for that matter, but am still having sizeable success with logically thought-out tactics. There are numerous threads at the moment suggesting the game is even easier with the new patch, so maybe the problem lies with you.

3) It's as much as possible a realistic simulation while remaining an enjoyable gaming experience.

4) Using the term 'fanboys' pretty much nullifies any argument.

5) If you have any data issues, bring them up in the data forum. It appears the case in the game that some teams tactics work better than others, thus teams 'outperform' their 'realistic' results (in some people's eyes, anyway).

6) Find a better game then. ;)

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I can't be arsed reading what is clearly an unstructured and unconstructive rant, but I have a few remarks to mark after skimming through your post.

1) If you've hated it since FM2005, why are you still playing?

2) Don't exaggerate. I have yet to read the TT&F guides, or any other for that matter, but am still having sizeable success with logically thought-out tactics. There are numerous threads at the moment suggesting the game is even easier with the new patch, so maybe the problem lies with you.

3) It's as much as possible a realistic simulation while remaining an enjoyable gaming experience.

4) Using the term 'fanboys' pretty much nullifies any argument.

5) If you have any data issues, bring them up in the data forum. It appears the case in the game that some teams tactics work better than others, thus teams 'outperform' their 'realistic' results (in some people's eyes, anyway).

6) Find a better game then. ;)

Well I didn't bother reading what you have written - cos well what's the point, eh? Moron.

I have persevered with FM, because I loved Champ Man so much, and hoped that the game would eventually return to such great heights, but it has not. If you are not interested in what I have to say, then don't read it. I for one, couldn't give a hoot, what you think, when what you have said is pure drivel.

Any other constructive debate would be welcome, however.

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Well I didn't bother reading what you have written - cos well what's the point, eh? Moron.

I have persevered with FM, because I loved Champ Man so much, and hoped that the game would eventually return to such great heights, but it has not. If you are not interested in what I have to say, then don't read it. I for one, couldn't give a hoot, what you think, when what you have said is pure drivel.

Any other constructive debate would be welcome, however.

I only worked with what you gave me. ;)

Cut the abuse too; you're losing any credibility fast. I think it's fairly clear that I DID read it, and what I said was merely making a point; however if you're unwilling to read anything but your own viewpoint, you're a very sad and narrow-minded person.

What would you like to debate? :cool:

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I only worked with what you gave me. ;)

Cut the abuse too; you're losing any credibility fast. I think it's fairly clear that I DID read it, and what I said was merely making a point; however if you're unwilling to read anything but your own viewpoint, you're a very sad and narrow-minded person.

What would you like to debate? :cool:

Actually, it's fairly clear that you didn't read what I said, and have instead decided to take the stance that I am an idiot, and don't know what I am talking about, simply because I have not wasted quite as much of my life on this forum, as you clearly have. I couldn't give a flying fig, if you find what I say credible - I am not speaking to you if you have no problem with the game, and therefore, you are simply trolling for arguments. You don't have a credible argument to make either, and what argument you do make is written in such an unintelligible manner, that it is obvious to me that you couldn't care less about making FM a better game. This is, after all, the whole point of the forum, so go away, if you don't understand how they work.

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most people are of the same view, until they learn how to play the game. CM was far to easy, hence why most people enjoyed, you could easily take any team to the top without breaking a sweat, i took 2 conference teams to the cl without any problems. FM makes you work for a result, there are so many factors to what wins or loses a game irl, and its the same here, 90% of posts in TT&F are people saying how wrong they were moaning about how rubbish it was. If you look at the guide you can clearly see it all makes sense but is things you have not thought about... this for me is one of the best in terms or realism as you cant just fly through the leagues to get to the top, you need to play with your head, build a great backroom as well as squad as well as studyign the other teams formations etc to counter it, couldnt be better!

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Actually, it's fairly clear that you didn't read what I said, and have instead decided to take the stance that I am an idiot, and don't know what I am talking about, simply because I have not wasted quite as much of my life on this forum, as you clearly have. I couldn't give a flying fig, if you find what I say credible - I am not speaking to you if you have no problem with the game, and therefore, you are simply trolling for arguments. You don't have a credible argument to make either, and what argument you do make is written in such an unintelligible manner, that it is obvious to me that you couldn't care less about making FM a better game. This is, after all, the whole point of the forum, so go away, if you don't understand how they work.

Erm, what?

I seriously can't be arsed with you. I'll leave this for someone else to fight, and observe the amazing hypocracy you've shown. :rolleyes:

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Erm, what?

I seriously can't be arsed with you. I'll leave this for someone else to fight, and observe the amazing hypocracy you've shown. :rolleyes:

**** off then! Hypocrisy - thy name is Hershie. If you like the game, then don't read this. If you CAN find fault with it, like many can, then say your piece.

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**** off then!

mate cut the swearing, where is it getting you, although it wasn't the best way of putting it, he only gave a counter argument to your views, if you don't want to hear what people have to say have your rant to a mirror!

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**** off then!

I think I just said I was doing so. ;)

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Calm down ladies.

For what it's worth, I'm not having this closing down problem because I only set high closing down for players with exceptional stamina and mental attributes. What's the stamina rating of your wingers?

There's also natural fitness to take into account which determines how quickly players recover condition between matches.

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Actually, it's fairly clear that you didn't read what I said, and have instead decided to take the stance that I am an idiot, and don't know what I am talking about, simply because I have not wasted quite as much of my life on this forum, as you clearly have. I couldn't give a flying fig, if you find what I say credible - I am not speaking to you if you have no problem with the game, and therefore, you are simply trolling for arguments. You don't have a credible argument to make either, and what argument you do make is written in such an unintelligible manner, that it is obvious to me that you couldn't care less about making FM a better game. This is, after all, the whole point of the forum, so go away, if you don't understand how they work.

You may have had some good points in your original posting that could lead to a constructive debate, but this last post pretty much showed that it's as much point talking to you as it is talking to the village idiot..

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mate cut the swearing, where is it getting you, although it wasn't the best way of putting it, he only gave a counter argument to your views, if you don't want to hear what people have to say have your rant to a mirror!

I kinda assumed that the point of this forum was that the creators of FM would actually read the posts, but if I'm wrong, then I retract what I have said, because there is absolutely no point in saying it in the first place, if SI, do not listen. I'm very happy that many people find FM to be enjoyable, but I do not, and as someone whom payed full whack for the game, I am entitled to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. I have been reading the forum for months now, but this is the first time I have posted, because until now I had blamed all my bad performances on my own tactics.

I have, however, come to the conclusion that the tactics do not work as they should, and the complete lack of feedback from the game regarding your tactics, no matter how effective, or ineffective, is laughable. Like I said, I do not expect to have to dedicate weeks at a time, just to play a football sim, and have enjoyed every incarnation of Champ Man or FM, previous to FM2008, without resorting to the internet for tips and tactics. I understand football, watch it regularly, have played the game for years, but apparently all that adds up to nothing, when it comes to figuring out the ambiguity of the current tactic selection options.

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Calm down ladies.

For what it's worth, I'm not having this closing down problem because I only set high closing down for players with exceptional stamina and mental attributes. What's the stamina rating of your wingers?

There's also natural fitness to take into account which determines how quickly players recover condition between matches.

You may well be right there, I need to check my players attributes. Although I would add that the closing down tactics I employ, worked perfectly in 9.2.0, but now appear to be completely useless. Fair enough, if this has made FM more realistic, but SI could at least give some tips on how to tweak your tactics when they release a new patch, as it is clear that same tactics will work differently with an 'improved' match engine.

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I kinda assumed that the point of this forum was that the creators of FM would actually read the posts, but if I'm wrong, then I retract what I have said, because there is absolutely no point in saying it in the first place, if SI, do not listen. I'm very happy that many people find FM to be enjoyable, but I do not, and as someone whom payed full whack for the game, I am entitled to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. I have been reading the forum for months now, but this is the first time I have posted, because until now I had blamed all my bad performances on my own tactics.

I have, however, come to the conclusion that the tactics do not work as they should, and the complete lack of feedback from the game regarding your tactics, no matter how effective, or ineffective, is laughable. Like I said, I do not expect to have to dedicate weeks at a time, just to play a football sim, and have enjoyed every incarnation of Champ Man or FM, previous to FM2008, without resorting to the internet for tips and tactics. I understand football, watch it regularly, have played the game for years, but apparently all that adds up to nothing, when it comes to figuring out the ambiguity of the current tactic selection options.

mate i never once said you weren't entitled to your opinion, all i said was you shouldn't swear and bit peoples heads off that don't agree with you. I guess i just don't see your argument because i was in the same boat, skimmed over the TT&F and saw what i was doing wrong. No one has implied your not welcome to have your say or your wrong and should shut up

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mate i never once said you weren't entitled to your opinion, all i said was you shouldn't swear and bit peoples heads off that don't agree with you. I guess i just don't see your argument because i was in the same boat, skimmed over the TT&F and saw what i was doing wrong. No one has implied your not welcome to have your say or your wrong and should shut up

Fair enough mate, but you have still not answered a single point I made in my original post. In fact, no-one thus far has come up with any intelligible counter-argument to my points, other than, "you are wrong"!

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**** off then! Hypocrisy - thy name is Hershie. If you like the game, then don't read this. If you CAN find fault with it, like many can, then say your piece.

That is quite right mate!

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Can everyone, OP included, keep it civil please - there's no requirement to post your thoughts on anyone else's posting style, much less so if you're offensive about it.

Thanks.

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i suggested you went through TT&F and the tactical forums as that is where i found all my answers, you will more than likely find that there is a reason for every problem you have

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Can everyone, OP included, keep it civil please - there's no requirement to post your thoughts on anyone else's posting style, much less so if you're offensive about it.

Thanks.

You are right of course, and I apologise for being offensive - it's not an excuse, I really do love management sims, and bought FM2009, hoping to love it too, but it really frustrated me, so I thought I should say my piece.

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**** off then! Hypocrisy - thy name is Hershie. If you like the game, then don't read this. If you CAN find fault with it, like many can, then say your piece.

:rolleyes:

You're calling me a hypocrite? I responsed to your opening post with my comments on numerous statements you made. You then insulted me for, basically, disagreeing with you. If you only want people who agree with you to read something, don't post it on a forum all can reply to.

I like the game, thus I'm putting my side on your arguments. What's the point of a one-sided argument with people just working themselves up?

Please care to state exactly how disagreeing with you makes me a hypocrite. :D Don't expect to come onto the forums, get everyone to agree with you, and have to right to insult those who don't. I would have been more than up for a sensible debate if you put forward any constructive points yourself, other than those I already responded to and got insulted for.

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Saying your piece is more than acceptable but i's generally better received if it's a little more considered...;)

Hershie - I asked everyone to drop it. You included please. Back on topic, or not at all...

Ta.

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Saying your piece is more than acceptable but i's generally better received if it's a little more considered...;)

Hershie - I asked everyone to drop it. You included please. Back on topic, or not at all...

Ta.

Yeah, sorry. :(

I just noticed the poster edited his post after I first replied and, you know..

:o

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i suggested you went through TT&F and the tactical forums as that is where i found all my answers, you will more than likely find that there is a reason for every problem you have

I've read TT&F, and have it saved on my hard drive, but my tactics still do not work. Primarily I feel this is the case as TT&F, for example, is largely targeted at good/world class teams, and when they do make mention of weaker teams, they simply say, "increase passing a bit", "reduce creative freedom a bit".. which quite frankly is no help at all. Not to mention the fact, that all this information should be included as part of the game, and not as an afterthought of people whom actually play it. SI know what tactics work, and what don't and they should be far better at communicating that to the average game player, than they are currently. I want the tactics that are accessible in game to actually work, and not have to resort to searching the Internet for tactics that 'might' work.

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SI know what tactics work

No they don't - Paul C was notoriously rubbish at FML :D

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I've read TT&F, and have it saved on my hard drive, but my tactics still do not work. Primarily I feel this is the case as TT&F, for example, is largely targeted at good/world class teams, and when they do make mention of weaker teams, they simply say, "increase passing a bit", "reduce creative freedom a bit".. which quite frankly is no help at all. Not to mention the fact, that all this information should be included as part of the game, and not as an afterthought of people whom actually play it. SI know what tactics work, and what don't and they should be far better at communicating that to the average game player, than they are currently. I want the tactics that are accessible in game to actually work, and not have to resort to searching the Internet for tactics that 'might' work.

I think part of the point of a realistic simulation is that you aren't spoon fed things and have to use a certain amount of your own logic and intelligence to find a tactic that works and suits your players and your targets.

I recommend just working with a preset tactic. With surprisingly minor tweaks these can be very successful if you have the right players and the right approach.

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you don't have to, i use my one tactic, i trialled and errored over a season or 2, tweaking each part as i went to get what i wanted. Its almost like saying about any other game that you want a 'walkthrough' to come with it cause you don't want to work it for yourself. Unfortunately the majority of people wish to work tactics etc out instead of having it on a plate in front of them so the game is set that way, cant please everyonr

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No they don't - Paul C was notoriously rubbish at FML :D

Alright fair enough, but if SI don't know how to play it, then how is Joe Bloggs off the street supposed to manage?? I keep going back to my opening points, but in my opinion the game used to be fun, and is now nothing but a complete slog.

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lol what he said! sorry if it seemed like a repeat post it was written while i was posting

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Paul C does know how to make a good tactic work, but there are people who are better at it and have more time to spare so it makes sense for him to allow them to do it in his place. Thus the Tactical forum is always the best place to ask for tactical advice.

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you don't have to, i use my one tactic, i trialled and errored over a season or 2, tweaking each part as i went to get what i wanted. Its almost like saying about any other game that you want a 'walkthrough' to come with it cause you don't want to work it for yourself. Unfortunately the majority of people wish to work tactics etc out instead of having it on a plate in front of them so the game is set that way, cant please everyonr

Actually you can have everything - you simply introduce a staggered difficulty setting, or allow users more control over how the game actually works - that way you please everyone, and do not alienate the ordinary game-player, which FM2009 most certainly currently does. I do not want a walk-through, and I do not expect to win everything in my first season, but I do at least expect to be able to play the game, without being a tactical 'know-it-all'.

And believe me, if I am complaining, you can bet your backside there are thousands of ordinary buyers, whom aren't even aware that the forum exists, that feel exactly the same way.

Just to be clear - NO USER SHOULD HAVE TO RESULT TO EXTERNAL SOURCES TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME, AND CURRENTLY NEARLY EVERY USER IN THE KNOW ALREADY DOES (TT&F, etc) AND THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW, HAVE GIVEN UP PLAYING THE GAME, ALREADY.

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I've read TT&F, and have it saved on my hard drive, but my tactics still do not work. Primarily I feel this is the case as TT&F, for example, is largely targeted at good/world class teams, and when they do make mention of weaker teams, they simply say, "increase passing a bit", "reduce creative freedom a bit".. which quite frankly is no help at all.

That's quite surprising as I have managed at ever level in the English leagues, plus in various other nations with pretty poor sides, and had no trouble getting things to work as envisioned. It was certainly never supposed to target good/world class teams and should be easily adaptable to any level, simply by increasing passing length and reducing closing down and creative freedom, all of which is pretty explicitly explained.

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Actually you can have everything - you simply introduce a staggered difficulty setting, or allow users more control over how the game actually works - that way you please everyone, and do not alienate the ordinary game-player, which FM2009 most certainly currently does. I do not want a walk-through, and I do not expect to win everything in my first season, but I do at least expect to be able to play the game, without being a tactical 'know-it-all'.

And believe me, if I am complaining, you can bet your backside there are thousands of ordinary buyers, whom aren't even aware that the forum exists, that feel exactly the same way.

Just to be clear - NO USER SHOULD HAVE TO RESULT TO EXTERNAL SOURCES TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME, AND CURRENTLY NEARLY EVERY USER IN THE KNOW ALREADY DOES (TT&F, etc) AND THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW, HAVE GIVEN UP PLAYING THE GAME, ALREADY.

'Simply' introduce is quite wrong. Would require a whole game rewrite.

Also, don't generalise. I know numerous people who don't use these forums or any other sites but still greatly enjoy the game, and as much as I can sympathise with your situation, I advise just to stick with it, go back to basics, and try and think logically, as the majority who have success do.

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and its a great piece mate, i actually printed it and keep it next to my pc! i was going to say it got me to championship with Chelmsford City but didnt want to start a new argument

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That's quite surprising as I have managed at ever level in the English leagues, plus in various other nations with pretty poor sides, and had no trouble getting things to work as envisioned. It was certainly never supposed to target good/world class teams and should be easily adaptable to any level, simply be increasing passing length and reducing closing down and creative freedom, all of which is pretty explicitly explained.

I'm sorry mate, but I really have to disagree with you there, despite the fact I realize, you clearly know what you are talking about from other posts of yours, that I have read. TT&F is not nearly explicit enough in its description, and as soon as one tries to manage a lower level team, in my experience, the tactics simply do not work. And quite frankly even if they do, why should I have to read a fifty page tome, just to play a game I payed less than twenty quid for? I am, after all, not getting paid for my time!

I guess my real point should be - what ever happened to pick up and play? Champ Man was such a success, in my opinion, due to this precise fact, and it seems that FM is now disregarding this altogether, to please the 'hardcore', whom have the time and the inclination to give up part of their lives for a GAME.

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Difficulty levels as you suggest them would require SI to create two seperate match engines per difficulty, or throwing the entire match engine away and building a new one from scratch that allows weighting and human differentiation. Both are simply never going to happen.

The only real way difficulty levels could be introduced is the implementation of staff help. Assistant feedback was introduced in this version so I think it's clear that this is the way SI wish to persue the difficulty issue.

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well i'm out of ideas, i don't know what you want to hear. Every solution isn't good enough. I personally have had huge success in lower leagues with TT&F. This is why i can't see your side, i know plenty of people who were in your boat and this got them out of it. Maybe this just isn't the game for you anymore as this is the direction it's going in and you clearly don't like it.

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'Simply' introduce is quite wrong. Would require a whole game rewrite.

Also, don't generalise. I know numerous people who don't use these forums or any other sites but still greatly enjoy the game, and as much as I can sympathise with your situation, I advise just to stick with it, go back to basics, and try and think logically, as the majority who have success do.

Requires a whole game re-write? Then SI, please re-write the game, as you have strayed so far from the initial joy of Champ Man, in my opinion(!), that you are losing fans by the minute.

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That's quite surprising as I have managed at ever level in the English leagues, plus in various other nations with pretty poor sides, and had no trouble getting things to work as envisioned. It was certainly never supposed to target good/world class teams and should be easily adaptable to any level, simply by increasing passing length and reducing closing down and creative freedom, all of which is pretty explicitly explained.

Yes, I manage in the lower leagues because I enjoy it and use tactics based on TT&F, doing basically what wwfan says here and they work well. It's realistic, too - on the whole you get more long ball the lower you go down the leagues.

Having said all that, the tactical interface really does need to be made much more user friendly. It really can't be right that we need a 50 page manual not even created by SI that you have to download from the web in order to work the system out.

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Oh and Rich, I'd appreciate your input in my Herrera thread in T&T ;)

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cm was a success due to it not having competitors, now that it has can you find a copy of it? it is/was rubbish compared to the depth and realism of fm, maybe try FIFA manager if you want to pick up and play and skip all the details

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The old CM is what became FM2005.

It's the same team in charge.

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well i'm out of ideas, i don't know what you want to hear. Every solution isn't good enough. I personally have had huge success in lower leagues with TT&F. This is why i can't see your side, i know plenty of people who were in your boat and this got them out of it. Maybe this just isn't the game for you anymore as this is the direction it's going in and you clearly don't like it.

Every "solution" you have offered is nothing but an interpretation of how to the play the game, an interpretation that SI should be teaching users, rather than saying - "find out yourself, you lazy rabble!". The fact is that SI, give no clues as to how the game should be played, and therefore if you want any joy out of it, you have to spend all your free time, learning how to manage a real team - which really defeats the purpose of it being a game in the first place. Emphasis on the word "game" people. I really can't believe that an intelligent person would advocate wasting one's time with reading a fifty page document, just to play a game. Don't you people have better things to do?

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Having said all that, the tactical interface really does need to be made much more user friendly. It really can't be right that we need a 50 page manual not even created by SI that you have to download from the web in order to work the system out.

This is the point I was trying to make - thank you for making it far more concisely than I could!

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Every "solution" you have offered is nothing but an interpretation of how to the play the game, an interpretation that SI should be teaching users, rather than saying - "find out yourself, you lazy rabble!". The fact is that SI, give no clues as to how the game should be played, and therefore if you want any joy out of it, you have to spend all your free time, learning how to manage a real team - which really defeats the purpose of it being a game in the first place. Emphasis on the word "game" people. I really can't believe that an intelligent person would advocate wasting one's time with reading a fifty page document, just to play a game. Don't you people have better things to do?

I agree that you shouldn't need a 50 page manual produced by an outside party. However, if you want SI to teach users they would probably need to produce a 50 page manual themselves to do it and using your criteria it would be just as much a waste of time for you to read that as to read the TT&F 50 page manual!

They need to make the tactical system more user friendly so that no huge long manuals are needed at all!

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I agree that you shouldn't need a 50 page manual produced by an outside party. However, if you want SI to teach users they would probably need to produce a 50 page manual themselves to do it and using your criteria it would be just as much a waste of time for you to read that as to read the TT&F 50 page manual!

They need to make the tactical system more user friendly so that no huge long manuals are needed at all!

I see what you are getting at, and it makes complete sense to me - it's just a shame that nobody else seems willing to listen, and can't be bothered to critique what is already there. Most people on here, are clearly not interested in making an improved, more commercially successful, game, and are rather more interested in telling the world how great they are at playing the game.

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I see what you are getting at, and it makes complete sense to me - it's just a shame that nobody else seems willing to listen, and can't be bothered to critique what is already there. Most people on here, are clearly not interested in making an improved, more commercially successful, game, and are rather more interested in telling the world how great they are at playing the game.

Are you from rentablanketstatement.com?

There are a huge number of people here who make constructive critiques of the game, whose opinions SI readily take note of.

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Are you from rentablanketstatement.com?

There are a huge number of people here who make constructive critiques of the game, whose opinions SI readily take note of.

Oh, of course, I forgot that because I don't spend my life on this forum, that my opinions mean nothing! Sorry for that people, I was under the mistaken belief, that this was a forum for airing ones views, rather than just "towing the party line". Pathetic attitude, friend.

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I have no objection to you 'airing your views'. I do, however, have an objection to blanket statements that have no basis in reality and in your face rudeness.

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Oh, of course, I forgot that because I don't spend my life on this forum, that my opinions mean nothing! Sorry for that people, I was under the mistaken belief, that this was a forum for airing ones views, rather than just "towing the party line". Pathetic attitude, friend.
I have no objection to you 'airing your views'. I do, however, have an objection to blanket statements that have no basis in reality and in your face rudeness.

Children, really! Play nicely!

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