Opinions on clean slate tactic

[TEGER]

Hi,

Just want to get people’s thoughts on the preset tactics compared to a clean slate tactic option.

What have you found works well on your saves?

[FMunderachiever]

Gegenpress is the most successful pre set, but i tend to design my own.

I like failing with my own tactics more than winning with a preset

[TheGoodRebel]

I tend to set my own formation and roles, but then apply the Gegenpress tactical style afterwards.

I've found that I definitely have more success using Gegenpress than any other tactic style - although I do create my own too from time to time.

However, anything that does work for me usually involves the high pressing, counter and counter press combo. I think that's more of a match engine thing than my own tactical genius though.

Edited June 14, 2020 by TheGoodRebel

[Starsurfer]

13 hours ago, TEGER said:

Hi,

Just want to get people’s thoughts on the preset tactics compared to a clean slate tactic option.

What have you found works well on your saves?

I have tested and found that all the preset tactics do work. Problem is they require suitable (actually very capable) players to make them work. Arguably, some users believe that having good players can produce results in any tactic. My testings have shown otherwise but that is another can of worms up for separate discussion. My findings are that without suitable players to fit the specific roles/duties/instructions in the preset tactics, they fail to produce good results. Especially the individual PPMs, they tend to mess things up quite a bit. Hence it becomes easier to create our own tactics to suit existing players in the team.

However, creating good tactics from a clean slate to produce results in FM20 can be rather challenging for some. Nonetheless, both preset and clean slate options are good ways to learn the beautiful game. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Starsurfer

[TEGER]

6 hours ago, Starsurfer said:

I have tested and found that all the preset tactics do work. Problem is they require suitable (actually very capable) players to make them work. Arguably, some users believe that having good players can produce results in any tactic. My testings have shown otherwise but that is another can of worms up for separate discussion. My findings are that without suitable players to fit the specific roles/duties/instructions in the preset tactics, they fail to produce good results. Especially the individual PPMs, they tend to mess things up quite a bit. Hence it becomes easier to create our own tactics to suit existing players in the team.

However, creating good tactics from a clean slate to produce results in FM20 can be rather challenging for some. Nonetheless, both preset and clean slate options are good ways to learn the beautiful game. 

Forgive my stupidity but PPMs? Sorry I’m not following haha.

I was finding that all the presets worked for a short while but then went HORRIFICALLY. 

I guess this was because I was managing in the Portuguese third tier so the players weren’t good enough technically to carry out the instructions. Since moving to the clean slate I have “uncomplicated” the instructions and are becoming much more consistent!

[TEGER]

19 hours ago, TheGoodRebel said:

I tend to set my own formation and roles, but then apply the Gegenpress tactical style afterwards.

I've found that I definitely have more success using Gegenpress than any other tactic style - although I do create my own too from time to time.

However, anything that does work for me usually involves the high pressing, counter and counter press combo. I think that's more of a match engine thing than my own tactical genius though.

I was managing a low league side and was finding that all the presets worked for a short while but then went really badly really quickly.

I guess this was because the players weren’t good enough technically to carry out the instructions. Since moving to the clean slate I have “simplified” the instructions a bit and are becoming much more consistent!

[Starsurfer]

3 hours ago, TEGER said:

Forgive my stupidity but PPMs? Sorry I’m not following haha.

Player Preferred Moves. Or also known as Player Traits.

[TheGoodRebel]

4 hours ago, TEGER said:

I guess this was because the players weren’t good enough technically to carry out the instructions.

This is why I prefer Gegenpressing, especially in the lower leagues. The system is more physical than technical. Plus it's generally easier to find physical players in the lower leagues than technical players. Being a player in the lower league doesn't mean you can't be strong, hard working and fast.

Glad you found you were having more success after simplifying your team instructions.

[XuluBak]

I've never used any of the preset tactics. Seems to kinda defeat the purpose, and they're very general, not specific to any given team. 

[Jack722]

Personally, I rarely use them if ever.

honestly, I’m a little shocked at how often the styles seems to work for other people considering how many and how extreme some of the instructions are. This overkill of instructions would suggest to me that each style only works for some very niche teams.

i use clean slate >99% of the time with only a 3-4 instructions max in each instruction sub section.

every so often, I go on a bad run of form and sometimes have a go with the presets when I’m out of ideas, and I wouldn’t say that they made my team better at all. So I don’t think that  it should be recommended that choosing a style is the best way to go. Maybe if your squad as a clear DNA that matches a style then it would be worth choosing one, but even still I would tone down a lot of the automatic instructions that the style gives you 

[Jack722]

On 14/06/2020 at 15:55, TheGoodRebel said:

I tend to set my own formation and roles, but then apply the Gegenpress tactical style afterwards.

I've found that I definitely have more success using Gegenpress than any other tactic style - although I do create my own too from time to time.

However, anything that does work for me usually involves the high pressing, counter and counter press combo. I think that's more of a match engine thing than my own tactical genius though.

I find this quite interesting. I’ve only played fm20 briefly on the demo, but In fm19 and what I’ve seen so far in 20 is that I’m quite the opposite. I realised that all of my best teams never utilised counterpressing or higher lines etc. 
 

for me at times, I was considering that the engine was a little rigged against keeping the ball and winning it back quickly.

but I reckon it’s more to do with which attributes people look out for most in players. Maybe you’d look out for crossing and off the ball for a wingback whereas I’d consider there positioning + tackling more. Also for strikers, I wonder if your ideal player would be maybe like a firmino, for his workrste and linkup play, whereas I’d be more likely to sign A rashford type forward, who’s got the pace and dribbling to run at defenders whove been caught over committing ..

 

I was also thinking about the teams that I managed long term in fm19, and a lot of them suited counter attacking more than counter pressing. For example, the team that I spent the longest with was Southampton, who have Obafemi currently breaking through. He’s basically a striker that’s pretty bad at everything apart from being absolutely rapid, powerful and a good finisher - not the player that you want to be creating chances and making good movements to break down a team that’s been pinned in there own half, but no one can counter against a high line like he can. The only save that I played a Gegenpressing ‘style’ (still not the preset) was with Leipzig - who play this way in real life to great success.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Jack722

[TheGoodRebel]

4 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

I’ve only played fm20 briefly on the demo, but In fm19 and what I’ve seen so far in 20 is that I’m quite the opposite. I realised that all of my best teams never utilised counterpressing or higher lines etc. 

I'm glad to read this as it shows that other tactical styles are possible on the game. In the downloads section of the forum there are a LOT of tactics that use a lot of the very same instructions. Is that because you have a successful tactic creator like Knap who churns out tactic after tactic with the aggressive settings so people just try and replicate and think it's "the way" to succeed at the game perhaps?

9 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

but I reckon it’s more to do with which attributes people look out for most in players. Maybe you’d look out for crossing and off the ball for a wingback whereas I’d consider there positioning + tackling more. Also for strikers, I wonder if your ideal player would be maybe like a firmino, for his workrste and linkup play, whereas I’d be more likely to sign A rashford type forward, who’s got the pace and dribbling to run at defenders whove been caught over committing ..

This is also a very good point. We all have our own idea of the beautiful game and how it should be played and we are all influenced by different teams and managers. Myself, I prefer powerful teams who attack and steam roll their opponents like Klopp's teams. Whereas others prefer the artistry of a Guardiola side etc...

[summatsupeer]

On 14/06/2020 at 15:44, TEGER said:

Hi,

Just want to get people’s thoughts on the preset tactics compared to a clean slate tactic option.

What have you found works well on your saves?

The preset i'd say are examples of very specific setups to create some styles and aren't really "plug and play".

[FMunderachiever]

In my opinion, if you play with a preset, there should be some sort of ceiling as to what you can achieve.

Makes zero sense if you can be successful just using the games own ideas of tactics.

The more you control yourself, the more theoretically better your team should potentially become i think.

[Hoof-it]

Presets shouldnt give people a ceiling. They are there for people who struggle with the tactical side and gives them a base. You still need the right players regardless of tactic. Let people enjoy the game wether thats making signings and progressing rapidly or digging deep into the tactical side of the game. Should be able to enjoy it either way. Id rather see someone using a preset than some exploit.

[Hilly1979]

7 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

In my opinion, if you play with a preset, there should be some sort of ceiling as to what you can achieve.

Makes zero sense if you can be successful just using the games own ideas of tactics.

The more you control yourself, the more theoretically better your team should potentially become i think.

So if someone like Eddie Howe wanted to emulate Klopp’s style of play then Bournemouth should hit a ceiling so they can only finish in a certain position?? 

FM is about as realistic to real life as possibly can be, that just isn’t realistic...

[FMunderachiever]

1 hour ago, Hilly1979 said:

So if someone like Eddie Howe wanted to emulate Klopp’s style of play then Bournemouth should hit a ceiling so they can only finish in a certain position?? 

FM is about as realistic to real life as possibly can be, that just isn’t realistic...

The obvious flaw with what youve said is, every tactic Eddie Howe would design would be a clean slate and would have to reflect Bournemouth's players abilities and player traits.

Eddie Howe cant just rip off Klopp as a template, do nothing, and have massive success.

This is what i mean. Its widely accepted gegenpress is OP and no one should be able to overachieve based on presets. The more quality input you put in should equal success or else half the game may as well not exist.

 

[TheGoodRebel]

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

The obvious flaw with what youve said is, every tactic Eddie Howe would design would be a clean slate and would have to reflect Bournemouth's players abilities and player traits.

I don't think this is always true. Sure, a lot of managers will tailor their tactics based on their personnel available.

However, there are also some managers who have their favoured way of playing and play that way regardless of their players. Eventually they will replace the players who can't play that way with ones who can.

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

Eddie Howe cant just rip off Klopp as a template, do nothing, and have massive success.

Agree with this. But there's no reason he shouldn't be able to perform slightly above expectations and then build from there by bringing in better players. 

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

This is what i mean. Its widely accepted gegenpress is OP and no one should be able to overachieve based on presets. The more quality input you put in should equal success or else half the game may as well not exist.

Is this not more of a match engine issue as opposed to a gegenpress issue? I do agree with you on the quality you put in though.

Edited June 16, 2020 by TheGoodRebel

[FMunderachiever]

3 hours ago, TheGoodRebel said:

I don't think this is always true. Sure, a lot of managers will tailor their tactics based on their personnel available.

However, there are also some managers who have their favoured way of playing and play that way regardless of their players. Eventually they will replace the players who can't play that way with ones who can.

Agree with this. But there's no reason he shouldn't be able to perform slightly above expectations and then build from there by bringing in better players. 

Is this not more of a match engine issue as opposed to a gegenpress issue? I do agree with you on the quality you put in though.

There is a definite match engine issue that favours gegenpress and high pressing for sure.

It feels to me like football manager tries to cash in on whatever the latest fashion trend in football is, and it does this to the detriment of other styles of play that have been around for years yet dont have someone currently making them trendy.

When they bring new positions into the game, they have a propensity to be OP too.

Maybe i was wrong about overachieving, but the point is, the game should incentivise you to design your own tactics, thats the whole point.

Maybe they should make the process of blank slate designing easier. or make it more obvious what each player will do with the roles and instructions you select....like the example of the players moving around the pitch on a pre set, why not highlight the typical movement of an individual player, or the effect the instruction would have? i think that would be a good addition to the game

[Hoof-it]

I think gegenpress is just easier to set up. People love the 4231. Struggle to create space when they try to play possesion based tactics so revert to being super agressive looking for people with good physcals and team work.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, TheGoodRebel said:

Is this not more of a match engine issue as opposed to a gegenpress issue?

 

27 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

There is a definite match engine issue that favours gegenpress and high pressing for sure

Match engine issues - actual or supposed - can be legitimately discussed in the General Discussion forum and the relevant section of the Bugs forum, but not here in the Tactical section. 

Please keep that in mind in your future comments, because otherwise I'll have to edit or remove such posts and potentially even lock the thread completely.

Thank you