The opposition block

[jsx7ste]

Does anyone have any advice when dealing this problem? What I am talking about is the opposition (in certain games) being able to block all shots and passes in their final third. This leaves players standing still and not passing it, running into opposition players and losing the ball or shooting the ball against opposition players. It's extremely effective and I am yet to find a solution to this. I thought a natural solution would be to play wider, focus down flanks and pass into space. To assign space investigating roles to players. It doesn't seem to work. Inevitably, as the game goes on and you adapt from your original style further, the team you are playing hit on the break and score or score from a free kick or corner. 

[zyfon5]

9 minutes ago, jsx7ste said:

Does anyone have any advice when dealing this problem? What I am talking about is the opposition (in certain games) being able to block all shots and passes in their final third. This leaves players standing still and not passing it, running into opposition players and losing the ball or shooting the ball against opposition players. It's extremely effective and I am yet to find a solution to this. I thought a natural solution would be to play wider, focus down flanks and pass into space. To assign space investigating roles to players. It doesn't seem to work. Inevitably, as the game goes on and you adapt from your original style further, the team you are playing hit on the break and score or score from a free kick or corner. 

Do u mind sharing some videos of this? I assume u are talking about opponent defending very deep in their own half. There is a recent thread that specifically talks about this. U can get much needed help from the thread.

 

[jsx7ste]

I'd have to wait until it comes up again and try and take some screen shots. It is as I describe though. I'll have a look at this. Thank you very much.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, jsx7ste said:

Does anyone have any advice when dealing this problem? What I am talking about is the opposition (in certain games) being able to block all shots and passes in their final third. This leaves players standing still and not passing it, running into opposition players and losing the ball or shooting the ball against opposition players. It's extremely effective and I am yet to find a solution to this. I thought a natural solution would be to play wider, focus down flanks and pass into space. To assign space investigating roles to players. It doesn't seem to work. Inevitably, as the game goes on and you adapt from your original style further, the team you are playing hit on the break and score or score from a free kick or corner. 

How are we supposed to offer you any meaningful suggestions without seeing your tactic first? Unless you post a screenshot of your tactic, all we can do is just speculate. 

[jsx7ste]

13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

How are we supposed to offer you any meaningful suggestions without seeing your tactic first? Unless you post a screenshot of your tactic, all we can do is just speculate. 

It happens against many tactics. Here are a few though.

 

[Djuicer]

Think of this first. What do you want the tactic to do?
Do you want to have a special player getting most of the good opportunities?

You will probably need penetration from more players in some tactics.

Anchor and DLP in a 4-3-3 (4-1-4-1 wide) will be too static imo.

[Justified]

1st tactic - Is not terrible, could use some tweaks. Remove the distribution to CB's and FB's, you already have PooD selected so need for it. RPM and Mez is too mobile imo. If you change the RPM to a DLP or BWM that should help. Not a fan of two BPD's but each to their own. I'd add BME to In Possession.

2nd tactic - In Possession instructions clash with how you've set the tactic up. This strategy needs rethinking completely and clashes massively with your "Possession" tactic.

3rd - Ditch this one, terribly balanced.

4th - Crossing heavy with lack of presence in the box.

The first tactic would be the one I'd go with and tweak and then just re-think the 2nd one. Saying all that though you are 1st in the EPL so can't be all bad.

[Os]

A deep narrow block with it's positioning and compactness wants to nulify critical spaces.

Here are a few things to try.

1. Drop DL line/Drop LOE/Stand off

2, Play out of Defence

3, Increase time wasting

4, Play Wider

5, Shoot on sight

6, Play for set pieces.

7, Be more expressive

 

 

[GianniM]

5 minutes ago, Os said:

3, Increase time wasting

5, Shoot on sight

Why 3? 

Not a fan of 5, you'll be gambling on a long range lucky shot. 

[Os]

With Time wasting along with trying to disrupt their shape I am looking to tire the opposition out and retain energy for a late charge.

 

Shoot on sight is a matter of "If you don't buy a ticket you can't win the raffle"

 

Please note that I'm not advocating applying these Ti's all together, apply them in combos.

[Djuicer]

3 minutes ago, Os said:

With Time wasting along with trying to disrupt their shape I am looking to tire the opposition out and retain energy for a late charge.

 

Shoot on sight is a matter of "If you don't buy a ticket you can't win the raffle"

You are timewasting to tire them out yes?

Then you shoot at first glance of the op. area?

The wasted time really seems wasted then?

Edited April 30, 2020 by Djuicer

[Os]

3 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

You are timewasting to tire them out yes?

Then you shoot at first glance of the op. area?

The wasted time really seems wasted then?

Did you read the 3rd line of my post?

Please note that I'm not advocating applying these Ti's all together, apply them in combos.

[Djuicer]

15 minutes ago, Os said:

Did you read the 3rd line of my post?

Please note that I'm not advocating applying these Ti's all together, apply them in combos.

Group the combos that are matching well. Just randomly dropping 7 that might or might not work well together is not going to help someone whos struggling.

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, jsx7ste said:

 

5 hours ago, jsx7ste said:

It happens against many tactics. Here are a few though

Well, that's part of the problem. You are using a needless number of tactics. Plus, they pretty much differ from one another. And only one among them looks half decent (the first one).

But at the same time, I see that you are 1st on the EPL table despite these tactical flaws. So I think you should actually be happy with your achievement as a manager, at least for now. 

Speaking of your tactic(s), my first piece of advice is - get rid of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th, and focus solely on the 1st one (4123 wide with the positive mentality), because that one can be improved with relatively few tweaks. The other three are not worth wasting any time and effort IMHO. 

[jsx7ste]

These aren't for the same team lol. I just loaded them all onto the one team. This is with multiple teams. 

[jsx7ste]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

 

Speaking of your tactic(s), my first piece of advice is - get rid of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th, and focus solely on the 1st one (4123 wide with the positive mentality), because that one can be improved with relatively few tweaks. The other three are not worth wasting any time and effort IMHO. 

The Spurs top of the league one is the fourth one. 

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, jsx7ste said:

The Spurs top of the league one is the fourth one. 

Well. that just shows how imperfect the ME is 

[jsx7ste]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Well, that's part of the problem. You are using a needless number of tactics. Plus, they pretty much differ from one another. And only one among them looks half decent (the first one).

 

I find that having 3 very differing tactics allows you to have familiarity in a lot of styles so you can adapt to the situation. I'm quite good at adapting mid game, as you can see, I'm 1st. I've had success elsewhere in this iteration too. Weymouth got to league 1, Boavista finished 4th then 6th and Got back to back promotions with Bradford. Won the league with Leverkusen 1st season. Got Swansea promoted in my first season with them too. What I can't find a solution to however, is overcoming the park the bus, tight marking that Bournemouth, Brighton and other teams use in this game. 

[jsx7ste]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well. that just shows how imperfect the ME is 

To be honest though I haven't played any of the top 6 yet and have only played 6 games.

[jsx7ste]

10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well. that just shows how imperfect the ME is 

Tactics which should work don't and ones which shouldn't often do... I mean this was my Leverkusen tactic which won the league. Should I have won the league with this team? Certainly not. What was it about this tactic that was so successful? I switched between cautious and positive mentality.

 

32 goals from Volland!!! It's insane.

Edited April 30, 2020 by jsx7ste

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, jsx7ste said:

What I can't find a solution to however, is overcoming the park the bus, tight marking that Bournemouth, Brighton and other teams use in this game

Honestly, I almost never have that type of problem, simply because my tactics are always:

- well-balanced in terms of roles and duties

- pretty simple in terms of instructions

- and suited to my players' strengths and weaknesses

So even if I struggle to break down an ultra-defensive opponent on occasion, all I need to do is just a couple of small tweaks. 

P.S: Rashidi has some videos precisely about breaking down those parked buses, so you can check out his YouTube channel "Bust the net" and take a look. 

[jsx7ste]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Honestly, I almost never have that type of problem, simply because my tactics are always:

- well-balanced in terms of roles and duties

- pretty simple in terms of instructions

- and suited to my players' strengths and weaknesses

So even if I struggle to break down an ultra-defensive opponent on occasion, all I need to do is just a couple of small tweaks. 

P.S: Rashidi has some videos precisely about breaking down those parked buses, so you can check out his YouTube channel "Bust the net" and take a look. 

Care to share your secret formulas?

 

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, jsx7ste said:

Care to share your secret formulas?

I don't have any secret formulas. People usually have tactical issues because they tend to overcomplicate things instead of keeping them simple and logical. Or trying to impose a style of play on a team that is simply not suitable for such a style. For example, if I manage Burnley, I am certainly not going to use a similar (let alone the same) tactic as if I managed Liverpool or City or Spurs or any top team. 

[jsx7ste]

7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

- well-balanced in terms of roles and duties

 

 

 

This is of course important but it doesn't always make a successful team either. I'm sure most people who are avid football fans, and most who play FM as much as us I dare say are, know what this looks like. It doesn't always transfer to success. If a defense is slow but physically strong and tall and good at heading what would common sense and knowledge of football tell you? If a winger has 20 for dribbling but cant cross for toffee, what should his instructions be? Similarly, if a team is blocking all your shots and passes and stifling your attacking movement, what does common sense tell you to do? Play wider? Cross more? Use the wing backs to get forward? The game doesn't always reward the right response...

 

I only have to look back to FM05 (i think), an EPIC network game at college. I was AC Milan, My mate was Juventus. He had the perfect balanced 4/5/1 when 4/5/1 was the Brick Lane of trendy formations. I set up with 4-3 cm - 1amc - 2strikers I signed Tomas Rosicky (the year before Arsenal signed him, I knew about him lol.) We absolutely smashed everything. I won the quadruple playing a ridiculous formation and style. He finished second with the balanced realistic tactic.  We put it down to AC Milan having gattuso and pirlo  (he chose first lol) but still the tactic was on paper far more unbalanced than his. 

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, jsx7ste said:

If a defense is slow but physically strong and tall and good at heading what would common sense and knowledge of football tell you?

"Common sense" - or rather conventional wisdom - would tell me that I should defend deep (low) and narrow. But, that's exactly where people tend to make tactical mistakes - viewing aspects of a tactic in isolation, rather than as integral parts of a complex system consisting of interdependent elements. Because how successfully your team will defend is not only a function of how you set up your defensive (out of possession) instructions, but also how you set up roles and duties and even how you set up your attacking (in-possession) instructions. The same essential principles can be applied to the attacking (in-possession) phase of play. 

 

5 hours ago, jsx7ste said:

Similarly, if a team is blocking all your shots and passes and stifling your attacking movement, what does common sense tell you to do?

Depends on what specifically I observe watching a particular match. There is no universal recipe that works for every single situation. But that's actually one of the reasons why I love this game despite some of its imperfections - because it provokes you to think a lot and be creative.

[mp_87]

For me it is about manipulating the defensive line, having variety, and having players work in tandem. For me usually I find a support striker attacking as a focal point, dropping off the front line and drawing away defenders whilst you have a couple of runners going past him the other way usually works against packed defences. I have no problem creating chances or opening up a gap finding a runner.

In your tactics there I just don't see enough people getting in to areas where they can score goals, Wingers are going to be crossing to one, maybe two players against a packed defence who will be the overwhelming favourite to clear the ball. Even roles like Inverted Winger play far too much in front of the opposition and aren't a huge goal threat, for my liking and taste anyway.

Usually if I'm playing possession style/dominating the ball, or games are panning out that way due to what the opposition are doing, I take inspiration from the main man on the subject - Mr Guardiola. Emulate what he does in trying to get players in the halfspace, creating overloads etc, maintaining width and applying rules like '5 attack, 5 defend' in order to guard against counter attacks.

As an example, a tactic/shape that has worked me for on a few saves, across different versions of FM, is:

Spoiler

(Lopsided 4-3-3 shape)

SWK (usually D)

 

RB - Fullback (s) - Just backs up the flank and protects against counters. Hold position optional, I usually use it.

CB

CB

LB - Fullback or Wingback (a) - Bombs forward up the flank providing the width on that side. Stay wider used.

 

RM - Wide Midfielder (a) - With stay wider. Provides the width on that flank, and the CM inside him on attack forces him wider. Will also get into the penalty area at times as a runner.

RCM - Central Midfielder (a) - Gets beyond the centre forward. Sometimes with Move Into Channels to get him into the half space when on the ball.

CM - Central Midfielder (d) - The holding player, recycles the ball. Put in the cm strata, forces other CM's wider (needed, especially on left side) and condenses the space between the lines with no DM effect.

LCM - Central Midfielder (s) - With holds position. Helps recycle ball and will drift out to link play and will support, but defensive minded given what is happening on the left flank.

 

AML - Raumdeuter (a) - Starts wide, will link with the left back bombing on outside him, but also be a runner beyond the striker (from the opposite side that the CM(a) is coming from.

 

CF - Deep-lying Forward (s) - Will link play, draw away defenders and create space. Never found goal scoring a problem either from this role, so will notch a healthy amount of both goals and assists.

 

Cautious or balanced mentality for me, as it sets the directive to be patient and recycle the ball. Those with attacking mentality in the final third are then given the license to up the urgency and risk. The shape becomes the Guardiola 2-3-5/3-2-5 in attack with lots of bodies in and around the area across the width of the pitch.

 

Well, it's what I do anyway...….

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by mp_87

[zyfon5]

7 hours ago, jsx7ste said:

 If a defense is slow but physically strong and tall and good at heading what would common sense and knowledge of football tell you? If a winger has 20 for dribbling but cant cross for toffee, what should his instructions be? Similarly, if a team is blocking all your shots and passes and stifling your attacking movement, what does common sense tell you to do? Play wider? Cross more? Use the wing backs to get forward? The game doesn't always reward the right response...

1. If a defense is slow but physically strong I will use a striker that is willing to drop deep. If the defenders follows me, then he loses his aerial advantage. If they don't then I can dribble around him or have time to make a pass. For this question, your best answer will be messi. He always plays against defenders that are taller and stronger than him yet he always comes out on top of them. Force them to play at your own terms.

2. Wingers that has 20 dribbling but no crossing? No problem. He don't have to cross. If he has good dribbling, he will attract the defense attention and I will put players around to take advantage of the spaces created by him. In FM 18, I had neymar in my team who is an extreme ball hogger but is very good at dribbling. Once I realized I can take advantage of the space created by him, I am able to make the most out of him.

3. If a team is defending very deep, I will try to create more long shots opportunities and create runs from deep. If they are defending very narrow, I will use players that can take advantage of the width of the pitch. Overload one side of the pitch and quickly switch to another side of the pitch to create one on one.

[jsx7ste]

7 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

1. If a defense is slow but physically strong I will use a striker that is willing to drop deep. If the defenders follows me, then he loses his aerial advantage. If they don't then I can dribble around him or have time to make a pass. For this question, your best answer will be messi. He always plays against defenders that are taller and stronger than him yet he always comes out on top of them. Force them to play at your own terms.

2. Wingers that has 20 dribbling but no crossing? No problem. He don't have to cross. If he has good dribbling, he will attract the defense attention and I will put players around to take advantage of the spaces created by him. In FM 18, I had neymar in my team who is an extreme ball hogger but is very good at dribbling. Once I realized I can take advantage of the space created by him, I am able to make the most out of him.

3. If a team is defending very deep, I will try to create more long shots opportunities and create runs from deep. If they are defending very narrow, I will use players that can take advantage of the width of the pitch. Overload one side of the pitch and quickly switch to another side of the pitch to create one on one.

Thanks for your response. I was merely using this to state that everyone is likely doing this. Everyone with a little football experience that is. The point I'm making is it doesn't always work. The solutions I have tried to win the games I can't win haven't worked. It's just me seeking perfection I guess. You can't win every game right? The frustration is that I find no solution or change to what I'm seeing on the pitch. My players go from world beaters to Barrow and there seems to be no changes I can make. I just have to take the draw/loss

[zyfon5]

1 hour ago, jsx7ste said:

Thanks for your response. I was merely using this to state that everyone is likely doing this. Everyone with a little football experience that is. The point I'm making is it doesn't always work. The solutions I have tried to win the games I can't win haven't worked. It's just me seeking perfection I guess. You can't win every game right? The frustration is that I find no solution or change to what I'm seeing on the pitch. My players go from world beaters to Barrow and there seems to be no changes I can make. I just have to take the draw/loss

I faced all these problems in my current save and managed to solve all of them. Sometimes u need a bit of luck though. If u want I can share u videos of it. sure u cannot win every game but all of these things are possible in the game and in real life

[jsx7ste]

10 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

I faced all these problems in my current save and managed to solve all of them. Sometimes u need a bit of luck though. If u want I can share u videos of it. sure u cannot win every game but all of these things are possible in the game and in real life

Thanks for the offer but it's ok. I'll just do what I always do, keep clicking different things and eventually something works. This is the totally random nature of this fantastic game. I've drawn against Bournemouth at home but then beat Chelsea away so I must be doing something right. 

 

Just lost 4-0 to Barca away with 56% possession 17 shots, 10 shots on target, 3 CCCs, 5HCs. Played beautiful football. Seriously expansive sexy football. Praised at half time losing 2-0, praised at full time lost 4-0 praised defense, midfield and attack. Player ratings were low 6's even though they were exceptional in every department. Quit the game loaded it back played it again and won 2-0 without a single change. NIIIIIIIICE! Football Manger! ;0

Edited May 1, 2020 by jsx7ste

[jsx7ste]

11 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

I faced all these problems in my current save and managed to solve all of them. Sometimes u need a bit of luck though. If u want I can share u videos of it. sure u cannot win every game but all of these things are possible in the game and in real life

Problem solved. Cracked the park the bus...

 

 

Edit. Sissoko scored 2 screamers. How unrealistic!

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by jsx7ste

[zyfon5]

6 hours ago, jsx7ste said:

Just lost 4-0 to Barca away with 56% possession 17 shots, 10 shots on target, 3 CCCs, 5HCs. Played beautiful football. Seriously expansive sexy football. Praised at half time losing 2-0, praised at full time lost 4-0 praised defense, midfield and attack. Player ratings were low 6's even though they were exceptional in every department. Quit the game loaded it back played it again and won 2-0 without a single change. NIIIIIIIICE! Football Manger! ;0

Maybe the AI make some changes that u don't know about? Same match loaded again is not the same match anymore. Maybe praising them when they are losing is not the best idea. And clear cut chances dun mean anything really due to limitations of the engine of what is defined as a clear cut chances or half chances. U can score 4 goals or no goals at all from 4 clear cut chances.

Edited May 2, 2020 by zyfon5

[jsx7ste]

5 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Maybe the AI make some changes that u don't know about? Same match loaded again is not the same match anymore. Maybe praising them when they are losing is not the best idea. And clear cut chances dun mean anything really due to limitations of the engine of what is defined as a clear cut chances or half chances. U can score 4 goals or no goals at all from 4 clear cut chances.

If we are going on pure realism of simulation then if any team were to absolutely destroy Barca away playing breath taking football then they would receive praise - a lot of praise. If you score a 1v1 does it log as a ccc now it has been scored? I don't think it does. Did you see what happened to Genoa using fluid? Gegen still the 'win  button' 

[zyfon5]

3 hours ago, jsx7ste said:

If we are going on pure realism of simulation then if any team were to absolutely destroy Barca away playing breath taking football then they would receive praise - a lot of praise. If you score a 1v1 does it log as a ccc now it has been scored? I don't think it does. Did you see what happened to Genoa using fluid? Gegen still the 'win  button' 

Gegen is always the win button for most of the time. I mean just look at the plug and play tactics. But then again u have players that struggles with overly attacking tactic that dun rely on exploiting the ME. Yes teams that plays well against Barcelona in real life will receive praise by the media public and what not. But a manager will never praise a team losing 0-2 against any team no matter how well they have played. Encourage yes praising no. Regarding the experiment the sample size is limited and I think the Chelsea example aldy answered OP question whether the tactic is a lose now button which is clearly not. Gegenpress a more superior tactic most of the time? Yes. Low block lose now tactic? No.

Edited May 2, 2020 by zyfon5

[jsx7ste]

11 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Gegen is always the win button for most of the time. I mean just look at the plug and play tactics. But then again u have players that struggles with overly attacking tactic that dun rely on exploiting the ME. Yes teams that plays well against Barcelona in real life will receive praise by the media public and what not. But a manager will never praise a team losing 0-2 against any team no matter how well they have played. Encourage yes praising no. Regarding the experiment the sample size is limited and I think the Chelsea example aldy answered OP question whether the tactic is a lose now button which is clearly not. Gegenpress a more superior tactic most of the time? Yes. Low block lose now tactic? No.

Of course they would praise. I've seen managers come out say how pleased they are despite a loss many times. I'm sure that in the dressing room there is a lot of praise. Hammer Barca away and go in at half time and your not going to be like you weren't bad but... No it would be more along the lines of - been great out there. keep doing what you are doing because you are beating them in every area except the score. That move back to front that split them open 5 times was a joy. Everyone is doing great. 

I've been in dressing rooms when we've been losing and the manager has praised us before. 

 

"But a manager will never praise a team losing 0-2 against any team no matter how well they have played." 

Impossible to say even if you were a real life Mourinho and You never had, doesn't mean others haven't. People are different, approaches are different and team talks are different depending on the person. 

 

Low block a lose now? No. Perhaps not. Although in every season I have simmed so far with a LLOE it has resulted in the manager being sacked which is effectively losing right? My initial comment on the thread was that if you were to simulate HLOE vs LLOE 9 times out of 10 Gegen would finish higher. So far it's 3-0. I can't be arsed to keep going.