Low determination

[JamieTC13]

Is there a problem with determination or something because 80-90% of youth player's has 5 determination and lower

Edited November 14, 2019 by jckc221013jamie

[Dagenham_Dave]

I've noticed this too, but I think it's by design this year rather than a bug. Maybe one of the devs can confirm? 

[14Benji]

Almost all of those players seem to have a  balanced personality, the others who have a more desirable personality have much higher determination.

 

it does seem more down to design than a bug like Dave said. Possibly putting more emphasis on your mentoring groups trying to get the personality improved.

[Boss]

I have noticed this too - almost all the best Dutch prospects on my game have Determination of 5/6 and below.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I suppose it makes it more of a challenge to unearth the next wonderkid. I like the way SI have made subtle changes this year to help prevent the easiness of users spamming the system. 

[Andrew James]

Hi, this is an issue we are aware of where Determination stat is bumped down for players who do not have it set in the db. 

We have made some tweaks in this area already but will continue to do so.

[Guest]

yes happens after the latest update. 95 prosent of all players on u18 and u20 team in all divisions in Italiy have 1 in Determination. On my save. 

[Dreambuilder]

This is just horrible. I just cant start a new game when tons of the youth are worthless and it might be fixed anytime for a much more fun save again.

[Guest]

yes have to wait, cant play the beta anymoore

[sureup]

Is this something that will be patched, or is it working as intended?

[KUBI]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb sureup:

Is this something that will be patched, or is it working as intended?

There is already an official response in this thread.

[sureup]

1 minute ago, KUBI said:

There is already an official response in this thread.

My bad. I thought it was in response to an older patch, but I see now it's from yesterday

[sureup]

I just tested this for myself, and indeed the new patch gives most 'unkown' youth 5-1 (seems too harsh) in determination, versus before it was more like 10-1 with some outliers.

See comparison pre and post patch:

Edited November 15, 2019 by sureup

[Dreambuilder]

11 hours ago, sureup said:

I just tested this for myself, and indeed the new patch gives most 'unkown' youth 5-1 (seems too harsh) in determination, versus before it was more like 10-1 with some outliers.

See comparison pre and post patch:

Ye thats just ridiculous. 14/18 youngsters below 5/20 determination and totally uninterested in developing and winning. 14/18 worthless.

 

I feel determination should be the opposite to reflect youngsters will in common. 14/18 should be at 10 or above..

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, Dreambuilder said:

I feel determination should be the opposite to reflect youngsters will in common. 14/18 should be at 10 or above..

Maybe 30 years ago. A majority of youngsters with low determination sounds more realistic to me in the age we currently live in. 

[RandomGuy.]

Can Determination not rise quite quickly though?

I've got a 18yo regen who I'm sure has seen his sky rocket since I've started giving him first team minutes and promised him he'll be a regular in two years.

[Dreambuilder]

41 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Can Determination not rise quite quickly though?

I've got a 18yo regen who I'm sure has seen his sky rocket since I've started giving him first team minutes and promised him he'll be a regular in two years.

I wonder that too, how much can it improve? I saved one 16 y.o. youngster with 1 determination in reserves. He played 5 reserve games but nothing happened in four months. Perhaps more time needed, but i doubt determination would reach 10 or even 5. But i wish someone with more hours in this game would tell us more about how much it can rise.

[Boss]

On 14/11/2019 at 16:28, Andrew James said:

Hi, this is an issue we are aware of where Determination stat is bumped down for players who do not have it set in the db. 

We have made some tweaks in this area already but will continue to do so.

Hi andrew,

will a fix for this be save game compatible or require a new game upon release?

[emil_sbn]

1 hour ago, Boss said:

Hi andrew,

will a fix for this be save game compatible or require a new game upon release?

Any response on this?

[KUBI]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb emil_sbn:

Any response on this?

Most fixes are saved game compatible, usually just competition rule changes/fixes and data updates needs a new save.

[Dreambuilder]

16 minutes ago, KUBI said:

Most fixes are saved game compatible, usually just competition rule changes/fixes and data updates needs a new save.

But low determination stats of thousands of youngsters wont change just like that in an ongoing save I think right? =)

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 minutes ago, Dreambuilder said:

But low determination stats of thousands of youngsters wont change just like that in an ongoing save I think right? =)

Not the ones already in your save, but if there is a fix for this, any new newgens coming through would be boosted, I'd imagine

[KUBI]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb Dreambuilder:

But low determination stats of thousands of youngsters wont change just like that in an ongoing save I think right? =)

Why not? If it is a bug they could fix that also for a current save. Basically this are just numbers to adjust.

[Dreambuilder]

1 minute ago, KUBI said:

Why not? If it is a bug the could fix that also for a current save. Basically this are just numbers to adjust.

Fair enough. Although if I play 1-2 season with them all having 1 in determination they would probably not play as well for match ratings or improve as much overall as if they had decent determination. I really really hope this is fixed for the release on tuesday!

[sureup]

I doubt a patch would change the stats of players already generated in the database of an existing save, so I'm waiting until Tuesday to begin my save.

If the problem was regens then it would probably be save compatible for regen dates after updating, but the problem isn't regens.

The problem is as @Andrew James described; existing real players without explicit determination values are randomly assigned one which is way too low on average. (1-5 as standard determination, compared to 1-10 before, with rare outliers which are higher)

Hopefully it will be fixed for Tuesdays release as I'm so eager to play more FM 2020. I freaking loved it for the half season i played until i met another bug (which is now fixed).

[Guest]

its determination still a problem or can i start a new save now?

[KUBI]

vor 1 Minute schrieb fiorentina:

its determination still a problem or can i start a new save now?

It‘s still a beta version.

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, fiorentina said:

its determination still a problem or can i start a new save now?

It's like every other issue you read about on here. Nowhere near as bad as it's made out. I've played the same save on the beta since day 1, and although I have noticed a lot of new players with lower determination, there are still thousands of generated players with high scores too. 

[Guest]

yes but cant start new save when 18 of 20 young players have 1 in determination after last update. My first save before the update was ok.

[Boss]

23 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's like every other issue you read about on here. Nowhere near as bad as it's made out. I've played the same save on the beta since day 1, and although I have noticed a lot of new players with lower determination, there are still thousands of generated players with high scores too. 

Yep something changed with the latest patch which meant that a lot of younger players at game start had 1 determination.

[Dreambuilder]

30 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's like every other issue you read about on here. Nowhere near as bad as it's made out. I've played the same save on the beta since day 1, and although I have noticed a lot of new players with lower determination, there are still thousands of generated players with high scores too. 

I did too but start a new game in 20.1 and take look at all youth squads..

[Dagenham_Dave]

49 minutes ago, fiorentina said:

yes but cant start new save when 18 of 20 young players have 1 in determination after last update. My first save before the update was ok.

Just started a new save to check this out, clicked on a random U-18 squad....

A few players with '1s' and some who might have '1', but it's not '18/20 players'. Whilst it clearly needs tweaked, I don't think it would stop you starting a new game. Remember, this is solely the first batch of generated players. I mean, how many of them are you ever likely to use? When the newgens kick in from the first intake onwards, it should be fine. 

EDIT - I realise the top players on that list might  not be newly generated players, but still. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Dagenham_Dave

[Guest]

yes good for you that there isnt 18 of 20 with 1 in determination. On my save there was just 3 players on every team that had moore than 1 in determination. u18 and u20 teams. I will start a new save later and see if its still a problem.

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, fiorentina said:

yes good for you that there isnt 18 of 20 with 1 in determination. On my save there was just 3 players on every team that had moore than 1 in determination. u18 and u20 teams. I will start a new save later and see if its still a problem.

 

The main point I was making was how much of a difference to your new save will it actually make? How many of the games firstly generated newgens at the start are you going to build a team around? And even if you did find a gem that had good attributes everywhere else, determination can be raised by mentoring and natural development anyway. I can't see how this is that big of a deal. Given the full game is out in 2 days time, where it will probably have been addressed by then, you're hardly likely to be years deep into a new save. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The main point I was making was how much of a difference to your new save will it actually make? How many of the games firstly generated newgens at the start are you going to build a team around? And even if you did find a gem that had good attributes everywhere else, determination can be raised by mentoring and natural development anyway. I can't see how this is that big of a deal. Given the full game is out in 2 days time, where it will probably have been addressed by then, you're hardly likely to be years deep into a new save. 

so if i start a save today the problem will be fixed in my save when orginàl game coming out tuesday?

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, fiorentina said:

so if i start a save today the problem will be fixed in my save when orginàl game coming out tuesday?

I would imagine so. It would just be the players you start with that would be affected. Any new players coming through should be fine, given that data won't be there at the start of the game. 

Although, it's only 2 days away, so it's not like you've long to wait. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I would imagine so. It would just be the players you start with that would be affected. Any new players coming through should be fine, given that data won't be there at the start of the game. 

Although, it's only 2 days away, so it's not like you've long to wait. 

ok thanks, i will wait. 

[JamieTC13]

2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The main point I was making was how much of a difference to your new save will it actually make? How many of the games firstly generated newgens at the start are you going to build a team around? And even if you did find a gem that had good attributes everywhere else, determination can be raised by mentoring and natural development anyway. I can't see how this is that big of a deal. Given the full game is out in 2 days time, where it will probably have been addressed by then, you're hardly likely to be years deep into a new save. 

it makes a lot  of difference in long term save's 10 year's down the line and you will have a team full of first team player's with 1-10 determination if you still think that is ok then ill let you think on but from where and how i play the game i like to proper nurture my youth and that won't happen with all the bad personalities coming through due to all the low determination 

Edited November 17, 2019 by jckc221013jamie

[RandomGuy.]

7 minutes ago, jckc221013jamie said:

it makes a lot  of difference in long term save's 10 year's down the line and you will have a team full of first team player's with 1-10 determination if you still think that is ok then ill let you think on but from where and how i play the game i like to proper nurture my youth and that won't happen with all the bad personalities coming through due to all the low determination 

I dont think its affecting regens though? It's just "base" players who have been generated.

[sureup]

3 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Just started a new save to check this out, clicked on a random U-18 squad....

A few players with '1s' and some who might have '1', but it's not '18/20 players'. Whilst it clearly needs tweaked, I don't think it would stop you starting a new game. Remember, this is solely the first batch of generated players. I mean, how many of them are you ever likely to use? When the newgens kick in from the first intake onwards, it should be fine. 

EDIT - I realise the top players on that list might  not be newly generated players, but still. 

As said, the issue is real young players without defined determination. The top half of your list probably are mostly players with defined determination stats.

You can clearly see where the players without determination stat set are <=5 (plus always a few outliers with high)

I don't think regens are affected.

[JamieTC13]

10 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I dont think its affecting regens though? It's just "base" players who have been generated.

To be honest i haven't really checked out any newgen's i see that and thought it would apply to them to so i have stopped playing but it until it is fixed so if it ain't applying to newgen's then that is a pl;us but is what i'm gonna do now i'm going to go on holiday for 5 seasons to clear this up just to see if it is affecting them on not 

Edited November 17, 2019 by jckc221013jamie

[Boss]

16 hours ago, jckc221013jamie said:

To be honest i haven't really checked out any newgen's i see that and thought it would apply to them to so i have stopped playing but it until it is fixed so if it ain't applying to newgen's then that is a pl;us but is what i'm gonna do now i'm going to go on holiday for 5 seasons to clear this up just to see if it is affecting them on not 

What were your findings?

[Andrew James]

Hi all,

Quick update on this. 

To clear up exactly what the issue is - players at game start who do not have a Determination attribute set in the database are being given too low a value. The value being given currently tends to be at one extreme or the other. This is partly by design as the majority of players this applies to are young, and at this age the spread is much more varied - but currently the numbers are skewed too far towards the lower end of the scale.

The changes we've made to player development and progression for FM20 mean that player with a low Determination attribute don't have to be written off as useless - these mental attributes are now much more flexible in both directions and although a player's starting point may be a bit lower due to this bug, the correct nurturing of the player is still the most important factor in whether they'll be successful.

Newgens are not effected by this issue.

This is still under review, and I hope you appreciate the need to ensure there are no knock-on effects before making a change and rolling out a fix.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[Boss]

17 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Hi all,

Quick update on this. 

To clear up exactly what the issue is - players at game start who do not have a Determination attribute set in the database are being given too low a value. The value being given currently tends to be at one extreme or the other. This is partly by design as the majority of players this applies to are young, and at this age the spread is much more varied - but currently the numbers are skewed too far towards the lower end of the scale.

The changes we've made to player development and progression for FM20 mean that player with a low Determination attribute don't have to be written off as useless - these mental attributes are now much more flexible in both directions and although a player's starting point may be a bit lower due to this bug, the correct nurturing of the player is still the most important factor in whether they'll be successful.

Newgens are not effected by this issue.

This is still under review, and I hope you appreciate the need to ensure there are no knock-on effects before making a change and rolling out a fix.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

Thanks so much for the update @Andrew James.

Judging by what you’re saying, is it unlikely that a fix for this will be included in the release day version of the game tomorrow?

[melogroovy]

That's cool.  As long as I know a low DET player can be mentored up this issue is a lot more palatable.

[sureup]

41 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Hi all,

Quick update on this. 

To clear up exactly what the issue is - players at game start who do not have a Determination attribute set in the database are being given too low a value. The value being given currently tends to be at one extreme or the other. This is partly by design as the majority of players this applies to are young, and at this age the spread is much more varied - but currently the numbers are skewed too far towards the lower end of the scale.

The changes we've made to player development and progression for FM20 mean that player with a low Determination attribute don't have to be written off as useless - these mental attributes are now much more flexible in both directions and although a player's starting point may be a bit lower due to this bug, the correct nurturing of the player is still the most important factor in whether they'll be successful.

Newgens are not effected by this issue.

This is still under review, and I hope you appreciate the need to ensure there are no knock-on effects before making a change and rolling out a fix.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

Thanks for the update on the issue!

It simply doesn't make sense to use 1-5 as the standard determination stat for these players, when regens later have a way more natural 1-20 spread. The way it was before with 1-10 as the standard for these players worked fine, no? Remember these players have to go through the same mechanics throughout the game.

If this really was correct then every youth intake in mid rep clubs should also have ~18/20 players with 1-5 in determination, which they don't, thankfully.

I really wish this was patched by launch, but I understand that further testing might be required. (was how it was before 19.1 broken in some way?)

[s1111]

This doesn't just affect young players, it affects anyone that doesn't have the attribute fixed in the database. So a lot of well known players in Spain like Mario Hermoso, Junior Firpo and Borja Iglesias have very low  determination because the researcher hasn't bothered setting it.

I'm guessing it also affects hidden personality attributes as well, so you have a lot of players starting the game with all round terrible personalities.

[Dreambuilder]

3 minutes ago, s1111 said:

This doesn't just affect young players, it affects anyone that doesn't have the attribute fixed in the database. So a lot of well known players in Spain like Mario Hermoso, Junior Firpo and Borja Iglesias have very low  determination because the researcher hasn't bothered setting it.

I'm guessing it also affects hidden personality attributes as well, so you have a lot of players starting the game with all round terrible personalities.

Yep. Pretty sad that this isn't fixed for the full release tonight. Mostly for the immersion playing your favourite team and there are IRL talents who now start with 1 determination which will take ages to improve to half ass good. How do you raise their determination from 1 to decent? ...

[Boss]

Game is out - is this still an issue on release? 

[sureup]

So release patch just came out and i tested it. Still bugged. Here's my u21 and u19 teams:

@Andrew James