Why is my tactic not working?

[_mxrky]

My defence is very solid, but I cannot score any goals. I create chances, but none of them are clear cut. My tactic is below. I was on a 25 unbeaten streak up until man u game, but half of them were probably draws.

[Experienced Defender]

16 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

I cannot score any goals

How do you mean "you cannot score any goals"? You have scored a decent number of them: 

 

17 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

As for your tactic: 

 

17 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

An attack-duty FB would make a lot more sense on the right than on the left. That would create a natural overlap with the IF on support, plus there is a solid defensive cover in the form of the DLP on defend duty.

Aubameyang is not quite a creative type of striker, so I think roles such as DLF, CF or TQ are not ideal for him. While I would also play him on attack duty, I would definitely change his role to either poacher or AF or PF on attack. And then the next logical step would be changing the left winger's duty from support to attack, along with making the left FB more conservative (as I already suggested above).

With your combo of standard defensive line and higher LOE, you are reducing your team's vertical compactness, which is not advisable, especially in a top-heavy system without a DM, such as 4231. Therefore, I would suggest you do the opposite - higher DL and standard LOE. If you are wary of playing with a higher DL, then keep both DL and LOE on standard (default).

In order to improve attacking performance, here are some instructions you may consider:

- higher tempo (to try and unsettle opposition defenses by moving the ball around more quickly, especially as your players are good enough to play with more urgency when attacking)

- be more expressive (your team possess a good amount of creativity and flair, so why not encourage your players to think outside the box a bit more?)

And if you follow my advice on roles and duties on the flanks - FBat with IFsu on the right and Wat with FBsu or IWBde on the left - you may also consider adding the Overlap left, in order to encourage more dynamic interplay on that side when attacking.

So, this is one possible setup:

PO/AF/PFat

Wat              AMsu               IFsu

BBM    DLPde

 

FBsu/IWBde  CDde   CDde   FBat

GK/SKde

[_mxrky]

12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

How do you mean "you cannot score any goals"? You have scored a decent number of them: 

 

As for your tactic: 

 

An attack-duty FB would make a lot more sense on the right than on the left. That would create a natural overlap with the IF on support, plus there is a solid defensive cover in the form of the DLP on defend duty.

Aubameyang is not quite a creative type of striker, so I think roles such as DLF, CF or TQ are not ideal for him. While I would also play him on attack duty, I would definitely change his role to either poacher or AF or PF on attack. And then the next logical step would be changing the left winger's duty from support to attack, along with making the left FB more conservative (as I already suggested above).

With your combo of standard defensive line and higher LOE, you are reducing your team's vertical compactness, which is not advisable, especially in a top-heavy system without a DM, such as 4231. Therefore, I would suggest you do the opposite - higher DL and standard LOE. If you are wary of playing with a higher DL, then keep both DL and LOE on standard (default).

In order to improve attacking performance, here are some instructions you may consider:

- higher tempo (to try and unsettle opposition defenses by moving the ball around more quickly, especially as your players are good enough to play with more urgency when attacking)

- be more expressive (your team possess a good amount of creativity and flair, so why not encourage your players to think outside the box a bit more?)

And if you follow my advice on roles and duties on the flanks - FBat with IFsu on the right and Wat with FBsu or IWBde on the left - you may also consider adding the Overlap left, in order to encourage more dynamic interplay on that side when attacking.

So, this is one possible setup:

PO/AF/PFat

Wat              AMsu               IFsu

BBM    DLPde

 

FBsu/IWBde  CDde   CDde   FBat

GK/SKde

Thank you for taking the time to reply. The reason I said I cannot score was I hadn’t only scored 14 goals in 12 league games. 

 

I mainly wanted to play a possession pressing tactic that aimed to consistently dominate the ball and possesssion - that’s why I chose the loe, but will implement that change to improve compactness although defensively I do well except for the occasional long ball over the top.

i was playing that role at st because I was trying to get the best out of ozil in the amc position- often find that in a 4231 my amc goes completely missing.

I’ll use some of these ideas and report back my success

[summatsupeer]

I'm confused by your personnel choices. Everton is right footed and likes to cut inside but you have him on the left as a Winger.  Chiesa is also right footed and likes to Get Forward Often but you have him as an IF-S on the right. Whilst it would be nice to get Bellerin bombing up the flank, I think you might want to flip @Experienced Defender tactic or at least have a flipped version of it for when using Everton and Chiesa.

One other thing is you talk about a Possession system, but Ziyech lacks many of the mental attributes to pull that off.  Poor Decisions plus Shoots From Distance trait can see possession lost before moving the ball around has had time to create space for a chance.  Same thing with Xhaka, thats 2 of your 3 central midfielders who like to shoot from outside the box.  If wanting a Possession style i'd prefer Guendouzi + Ozil, maybe have a 433 counter as plan B.  Lacazette is a more rounded forward and you'll likely get more fluid attacks with him as your DLF-At than Aubameyang who's best against teams who push there d-line up or give you opportunities to counter attack directly which Pavard could help a bit with as a BPD.

I don't see much need for a BBM when there's 4 players in front of him, where will he roam to?  In this setup I think a CM/BWM-D + DLP-S combo makes sense, gives space for the AM and extra cover since Bellerin will get forward a lot + wide due to his traits even role doesn't tell him to do that.

I'd add More Urgent pressing, either as a TI or adding PIs to the front 4 so they try to rush opponents into mistakes and gives less time for them to pick a ball out over your defensive lines heads.  With smart players I don't mind lowering tempo on higher mentalities and letting them pick the best option once they've created it, I prefer a high number of support duties doing this so they vary there movement and play more than attack duties.

My version would be:

P/PFat

IFsu           AMsu     Wat/su

CMde    DLPsu

 

FBat  CDde   CDde   WB/FBsu

GK/SKde

[Experienced Defender]

45 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

I mainly wanted to play a possession pressing tactic that aimed to consistently dominate the ball and possesssion - that’s why I chose the loe

Prevent short GKD and counter-press should be enough to help with winning possession back, so I would not risk sacrificing vertical compactness.

 

46 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

i was playing that role at st because I was trying to get the best out of ozil in the amc position- often find that in a 4231 my amc goes completely missing

But if you want to get the best/most out of Ozil in AMC, then it's all the more reason not to play the striker in a role that tends to drop deeper (plus is considered a creator role), so that the AMC (Ozil) would not be denied space in which he can operate as a primary creator. 

Btw, did you play Ozil as an AM on support on in some other role/duty? 

[_mxrky]

41 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I'm confused by your personnel choices. Everton is right footed and likes to cut inside but you have him on the left as a Winger.  Chiesa is also right footed and likes to Get Forward Often but you have him as an IF-S on the right. Whilst it would be nice to get Bellerin bombing up the flank, I think you might want to flip @Experienced Defender tactic or at least have a flipped version of it for when using Everton and Chiesa.

One other thing is you talk about a Possession system, but Ziyech lacks many of the mental attributes to pull that off.  Poor Decisions plus Shoots From Distance trait can see possession lost before moving the ball around has had time to create space for a chance.  Same thing with Xhaka, thats 2 of your 3 central midfielders who like to shoot from outside the box.  If wanting a Possession style i'd prefer Guendouzi + Ozil, maybe have a 433 counter as plan B.  Lacazette is a more rounded forward and you'll likely get more fluid attacks with him as your DLF-At than Aubameyang who's best against teams who push there d-line up or give you opportunities to counter attack directly which Pavard could help a bit with as a BPD.

I don't see much need for a BBM when there's 4 players in front of him, where will he roam to?  In this setup I think a CM/BWM-D + DLP-S combo makes sense, gives space for the AM and extra cover since Bellerin will get forward a lot + wide due to his traits even role doesn't tell him to do that.

I'd add More Urgent pressing, either as a TI or adding PIs to the front 4 so they try to rush opponents into mistakes and gives less time for them to pick a ball out over your defensive lines heads.  With smart players I don't mind lowering tempo on higher mentalities and letting them pick the best option once they've created it, I prefer a high number of support duties doing this so they vary there movement and play more than attack duties.

My version would be:

P/PFat

IFsu           AMsu     Wat/su

CMde    DLPsu

 

FBat  CDde   CDde   WB/FBsu

GK/SKde

Thank you for the response. Yh I just watched a game and realised the bbm takes up some of the space of the amc.

ziyech isn’t a starter he is a back up for ozil who seems to be getting constantly injured Again thanks for the ideas

[_mxrky]

24 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Prevent short GKD and counter-press should be enough to help with winning possession back, so I would not risk sacrificing vertical compactness.

 

But if you want to get the best/most out of Ozil in AMC, then it's all the more reason not to play the striker in a role that tends to drop deeper (plus is considered a creator role), so that the AMC (Ozil) would not be denied space in which he can operate as a primary creator. 

Btw, did you play Ozil as an AM on support on in some other role/duty? 

Tried him with ap support and also am attack whilst using the striker as a dlf s or cf s. Neither combo seemed to work too effectively 

[Experienced Defender]

28 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Tried him with ap support and also am attack whilst using the striker as a dlf s or cf s. Neither combo seemed to work too effectively

Well, that very much corroborates what I already said - if you want the AMC as a creator, then don't play the (lone) striker in a creator role. In other words, if the AMC is a creator, the lone striker should be runner/scorer (and vice versa). 

When I want my AMC to be the primary creator in a possession-based system, there are two roles I tend to use - TQ or AM on support (with PIs roam from position and take more risks). In a more counter-attacking tactic, it can be TQ, AP on attack, SS or AM on attack. But the basic principle remains the same - AMC creator and striker runner/scorer (or AMC runner/scorer and striker creator). A good thing about generic AM role is that you can make him either creator or runner via PIs.

[_mxrky]

Update: Well i'm unbeaten in a very long while since updating my tactic to below. 

 

All is going well except for my amc position. He doesn't produce any assists or goals and has 6.7 average rating all season. Not sure what the issue is. Could it be that the dlp is taking up some of his role as primary creator. I'm not really sure. Any advice because his production seems to be the only issue with the team right now. 

I have take more risks and roam from position on the amc. Thinking of changing him to an ap s and changing the dlp d to a cm -d and see what happens. Not really sure what that would do though 

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, _mxrky said:

I like your new tactic, it looks nicely balanced. The instruction I would definitely add is Counter in transition. With players you have up front, especially Aubameyang, there is no reason not to use counter-attacks as an extra attacking weapon. 

 

5 hours ago, _mxrky said:

All is going well except for my amc position. He doesn't produce any assists or goals and has 6.7 average rating all season

If you are getting good results - as you obviously are - I wouldn't be too worried about a single player's underperformance. What's important is that the team as a whole is performing well. 

 

5 hours ago, _mxrky said:

I have take more risks and roam from position on the amc. Thinking of changing him to an ap s and changing the dlp d to a cm -d and see what happens. Not really sure what that would do though 

I would rather change his role to TQ than AP. The DLP then could be changed to a CM on defend. 

[_mxrky]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

I like your new tactic, it looks nicely balanced. The instruction I would definitely add is Counter in transition. With players you have up front, especially Aubameyang, there is no reason not to use counter-attacks as an extra attacking weapon. 

 

If you are getting good results - as you obviously are - I wouldn't be too worried about a single player's underperformance. What's important is that the team as a whole is performing well. 

 

I would rather change his role to TQ than AP. The DLP then could be changed to a CM on defend. 

Well I just got destroyed by Tottenham 4-0 and Newcastle 3-1. Guess I just have to accept that my amc will never contribute anything and will always have low ratings

[summatsupeer]

10 hours ago, _mxrky said:

Guess I just have to accept that my amc will never contribute anything and will always have low ratings

Have a look at his stats after the game, is he not getting enough touches? Is he losing possession a lot without creating? That might need you to look at the failed passes to see what he was trying to do.

Consider the players traits to, Ozil drops deep to collect the ball so early in moves I expect the middle 3 to be quite deep and close rather than the AM being higher in the hole. The preference to select the DLP-De in this situation could reduce his touches and when he does get it, what options did he have?

This could be as much the type of player issue than the role+duty.  Would a player who doesnt drop deep and more willing to carry the ball or not force risky passes so often help more?

[Ugeine]

I find when playing with a 4231 possession based tactic, especially as a bigger team, opposing teams will play defensively against you, will sit deep and narrow and usually play a defensive midfielder or two.  This means the AMC usually has very little space to work in and their performance suffers because of this.

[Experienced Defender]

23 minutes ago, Ugeine said:

Your striker is the only one of the front four on an attack duty

His RW is also on attack: 

 

19 hours ago, _mxrky said:

 

[Ugeine]

49 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

His RW is also on attack: 

Sorry, I was mistakenly going by the original post. 

[_mxrky]

Well a horrible end to the season has meant a season of failure. Not really sure why all of i sudden i just got smashed by every team

[Experienced Defender]

31 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Well a horrible end to the season has meant a season of failure. Not really sure why all of i sudden i just got smashed by every team

It's impossible for us to say what went wrong, because it's only you who play and (hopefully) watch your team's matches. We can only speculate. For example, it's quite possible that other teams adapted their tactics when playing against you following your good run of results that preceded this latest slump in form, whereas you yourself failed to make tweaks to your tactic in return. 

[davidbarros2]

Just a lurker here, but I found the need to tell you what a great discussion about the 4231 this is.

Having run a similar tactic this thread gave me great insight and I learnt a lot. Thank you @Experienced Defender and @summatsupeer

[davidbarros2]

Following my last comment, and don't wanting to hijack the thread but I see many people struggling with getting a 4231 to work, based on possession, and getting the most out of the AMC.

Don't mind my team (this isn't how I normally play the game), it's Everton but it's custom made having replaced the likes of Richarlison, Bernard, Sigurdsson for Martial, Kane and Dybala, so yeah, it's better then the default Everton squad (at least in attack).

As you can see, using a simple 4231 with no PI's, having based the player roles, duty and TI's solely on the opinions given in this thread, I won the premier league using possession based football and creating a great ammount of quality chances.

My striker was the league goalscorer and my AMC was my primary assist (and not from set pieces), topping the relevant statistic charts. I also obtained a good balance between scoring through cross or through ball.

Sorry for the images in portuguese - I'm willing to translate something if you need to - I just wanna thank again for the sound advise given here.

[_mxrky]

23 hours ago, davidbarros2 said:

Following my last comment, and don't wanting to hijack the thread but I see many people struggling with getting a 4231 to work, based on possession, and getting the most out of the AMC.

Don't mind my team (this isn't how I normally play the game), it's Everton but it's custom made having replaced the likes of Richarlison, Bernard, Sigurdsson for Martial, Kane and Dybala, so yeah, it's better then the default Everton squad (at least in attack).

As you can see, using a simple 4231 with no PI's, having based the player roles, duty and TI's solely on the opinions given in this thread, I won the premier league using possession based football and creating a great ammount of quality chances.

My striker was the league goalscorer and my AMC was my primary assist (and not from set pieces), topping the relevant statistic charts. I also obtained a good balance between scoring through cross or through ball.

Sorry for the images in portuguese - I'm willing to translate something if you need to - I just wanna thank again for the sound advise given here.

Do you mind sharing your tactic. I cannot make my amc effective whatsoever 

[davidbarros2]

Sure!

As I said it's based on this thread so it's actualy close to yours after you applied the suggestions given. From right to left:

• Sweeper Keeper - defend
• Fullback - support
• Centreback - defend
• Ball playing centreback  - defend
• Fullback - attack
• Box to box - support
• Centre midfielder - defend
• Winger - attack
• Trequartista - attack
• Inside forward - support
• Poacher - attack

Team instructions are:

• Shorter passing
• Play out of defense
• Work ball into box
• Be more expressive
• Overlap right
• Roll it out
• Counterpress
• Counter
• Higher defensive line
• Prevent short GK distribution

No player instructions given or OI's...

[_mxrky]

I give up now. This game is no longer fun for me anymore. I use tactics that should make logical sense using roles and duties and advice on this forum and still don’t get results and get dominated when it makes no sense. 

I watch each match on comprehensive and my team just gets dominated. I constantly changing my tactics to counter opposition and none of them of them seem to work. 

It’s just tiring m. Why do you have to be an elite tactician just to do well in this game. Why can’t I just set up a basic tactic and get some results?

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

I constantly changing my tactics to counter opposition

I fear this is exactly what could be the key source of your issues. Making slight tweaks to adapt to a particular kind of opposition or situation during a match is normal and welcome. But constantly changing a tactic is likely to do more harm than good.

 

9 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Why do you have to be an elite tactician just to do well in this game. Why can’t I just set up a basic tactic and get some results?

You do not have to be an "elite" tactician. I myself am not an elite tactician (even though some people here think I am  ). All that a tactic needs to be is simple and logical. When I create a tactic, the first thing I do is analyze my team to see what playing style and formation would suit them in an optimal way. Once I sort this out, the rest becomes pretty simple (including occasional tweaks).

[_mxrky]

43 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I fear this is exactly what could be the key source of your issues. Making slight tweaks to adapt to a particular kind of opposition or situation during a match is normal and welcome. But constantly changing a tactic is likely to do more harm than good.

 

You do not have to be an "elite" tactician. I myself am not an elite tactician (even though some people here think I am  ). All that a tactic needs to be is simple and logical. When I create a tactic, the first thing I do is analyze my team to see what playing style and formation would suit them in an optimal way. Once I sort this out, the rest becomes pretty simple (including occasional tweaks).

But when i'm literally getting smashed with a tactic is simple and logical, what do you do?

[Experienced Defender]

13 hours ago, _mxrky said:

But when i'm literally getting smashed with a tactic is simple and logical, what do you do?

Analyzing a match in which I got smashed (whatever you mean by that) to see why I got smashed. The game provides plenty of useful analytical tools that can help you understand what's wrong with your tactic, so that you can improve it. I personally analyze all my matches, including those in which I am extremely happy with my team's performance, because there always some details that you fail to spot during the match, and sometimes they can be very important.

[PinkSpeedos]

On 24/06/2019 at 23:06, _mxrky said:

I watch each match on comprehensive and my team just gets dominated. I constantly changing my tactics to counter opposition and none of them of them seem to work. 

This is problem Number 1. Constantly changing your tactics means your players have to constantly adapt to the new system. Big changes to tactics over and over again are never advised. How often do managers in real life do a complete overhaul of their tactics regularly? You can train three different tactics, if you have something in mind, train it up for a bit and try it out in a game that you are winning comfortably, or if you are chasing a game and want to do something different to get the result. 

 

On 24/06/2019 at 23:06, _mxrky said:

It’s just tiring m. Why do you have to be an elite tactician just to do well in this game. Why can’t I just set up a basic tactic and get some results?

I can assure you that I am no master tactician either. There are a lot of people on these forums who will always be a lot better than me at the game, and that is why I come here often and read through topics like this. 
That being said, in my current save, I have got Leeds to a 5th placed Prem finish at the end of my third season. European football with a squad that still contains many of my Championship squad. 

You may think your tactics are logical, but that doesn't mean they are. And even if they are, maybe you don't have the players to pull them off. 

It doesn't take a master tactician, it just takes a little time, care and effort. 

FM would be super boring if you could just make a base tactic and do well with it, never having to change a thing or improve/tweak things, outside of tactics. 

This is a football management simulation, not a plug and play footy game like FIFA. 

[FMunderachiever]

On 25/06/2019 at 00:07, _mxrky said:

But when i'm literally getting smashed with a tactic is simple and logical, what do you do?

maybe just try a new team, a complete new start, new players, new outlook?

 

[Svenc]

As somebody casually visiting These Forums (any Kind of deeper following means massive Edge over AI, snooze):

The aforementioned assessments of "Season Ends badly, so I give up" frustrates the **** out of me. If you'd follow Football very closely, Teams lose Matches in a row because this is Football. On FM there tends to be a tactical solution for almost everything (which there shouldn't be, and which can be closely linked to the AI's "dumbness"). But that shouldn't Change any of these facts. Teams have streaks mainly caused by football's inherent low scoring randomness, and sometimes, there's not much more to that. Bookies exploit the **** out of everybody attributing any streak to a "Crisis".  Had Arsenal not bottled that many of their chances in that Leicester Winning Season, who knows. 

Now if you would ALWAYS drop the Points come the end of a Season, that's another Story. There's also other factors to consider here, such as pressure, and-- in particular over a streak of no wins, losses of confidence. Do Players of this actually want a sim of Football? I doN't think they do. Bummer.

[summatsupeer]

On 24/06/2019 at 23:06, _mxrky said:

I constantly changing my tactics to counter opposition and none of them of them seem to work. 

This is typically where people start going off track.  Making change after change and maybe ruining what they had because of one bad game.

The tactic you posted in the opening post wasn't terrible, I think your main issue was:

1. Didn't make the most out of the players you had.

2. Players didn't fit the style of how you want to play.  Tactically you can only do so much, you can't make a fast direct winger become a smart creative creator, even with lots of training.

If things don't go how you expect, don't just blame the game, take a break then come back and try and analyse things, like its someone asking you for help and not your own tactic.  Does that player you really like have the attributes to play how you want?  We're you tinkering too much trying to fix things that were player issues? etc