Carillero

[westy8chimp]

I don't have much data/observation to go on as I've had little time this year to venture into FM18. I have one save game 10 seasons in and I've played Kante as Carillero in every game season... typically starting 30 games or so and scoring 5-10 goals.

How do people find the role? I like it in terms of results/performance... but to me it doesn't really adhere to it's supposed behaviour. It could just be my setup... but it seems quite an attacking role with too much forward<->back movement instead of being a halfway line marauder.

I'm PSG so don't critique the tactic too much as I have the luxury of not needing it to be sound ... I've had 7 unbeaten seasons out of 10 in the league

 

I expect the CAR to play like a BWM with less all-round ball chasing... just a halfway line BWM. DLP also a sort of static slightly deeper CM in the defensive phase ... with my high line and very quick defenders doing the majority of defensive work. With the ball I expect my DLP and CAR to play simple short passes to the front 4 who cause havoc. What I see is quite often the CAR acts a BBM and makes runs into the box. Kante does not have that as a PPM.

 

Standard - flexible, much higher line, more pressing

GK - D

FB - S

CB - D

CB - D

FB - S

----------------------------

DLP - S

CAR - S

--------------------------

IF - S

AP - S

W - A

----------------------

AF - A 

[herne79]

For me, the Carrilero is kind of like a CM(S) with additional coding to drag him wider to help protect his flank when the team is defending.  He's still a midfield support role, so nothing to say he won't get forward to support attacks or get back when defending.  If he was sat being a "halfway line marauder" I'd be a bit worried.

[westy8chimp]

59 minutes ago, herne79 said:

For me, the Carrilero is kind of like a CM(S) with additional coding to drag him wider to help protect his flank when the team is defending.  He's still a midfield support role, so nothing to say he won't get forward to support attacks or get back when defending.  If he was sat being a "halfway line marauder" I'd be a bit worried.

hmmm I'm sure they are supposed to have more lateral movement though. but if you look at heat map ... in my situation its more longitude. Of course I'd expect them to support up and down within reason.

Kante is my MRC of the two ... very rarely pops up anywhere near the left flank. I'll see if I can attach some heat map evidence tonight.

I'd hoped it would be hottest round the centre circle... growing outwards to each flank ... then rare advances to either box.

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

For me, the Carrilero is kind of like a CM(S) with additional coding to drag him wider to help protect his flank when the team is defending.  He's still a midfield support role, so nothing to say he won't get forward to support attacks or get back when defending.  If he was sat being a "halfway line marauder" I'd be a bit worried.

Agreed, I think he takes slightly less risks (probably less creative freedom to) but the differences are more of a nuance within the support duty.

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

hmmm I'm sure they are supposed to have more lateral movement though. but if you look at heat map ... in my situation its more longitude. Of course I'd expect them to support up and down within reason.

Kante is my MRC of the two ... very rarely pops up anywhere near the left flank. I'll see if I can attach some heat map evidence tonight.

I'd hoped it would be hottest round the centre circle... growing outwards to each flank ... then rare advances to either box.

I think you miss understood herne79s post.  The role is hard coded to help defend the flank he is on, if he is MCR then he will defend the MCR->MR area, if anything this will draw him away from the MCL-MC area, nevermind the left flank so not sure where thats come from?!?

[westy8chimp]

12 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Agreed, I think he takes slightly less risks (probably less creative freedom to) but the differences are more of a nuance within the support duty.

I think you miss understood herne79s post.  The role is hard coded to help defend the flank he is on, if he is MCR then he will defend the MCR->MR area, if anything this will draw him away from the MCL-MC area, nevermind the left flank so not sure where thats come from?!?

haven't misunderstood him at all.  the role is supposed to be lateral.. I expect my Carillero to have lateral movement. So covering both flanks where possible.

here's a description of the role on this forum when it came out.. and then the in game detail as well.

 

 

[westy8chimp]

Even if we forget covering both flanks... the heat map, in my scenario, is still more box to box than right centre to right flank.

It may just be me and my formation because I'm a dominant team with 65-70% possession in most games (I suspect this is the case) 

Maybe if someone is playing as an underdog and seeing 30-40% possession they see the Carillero behave differently?

 

[herne79]

@westy8chimp  Yeh the wording is a bit ambiguous (shock).  As summat says, position him at MCR and he'll shuttle across to help defend MR, not ML.  Can you imagine the huge space he'd leave behind if he did move to his opposite flank?  Yikes.

Remember as well that the Carrilero does not have the option to choose "Hold Position" which may otherwise restrict his vertical movement when in possession, so from that perspective he's free to move up and down.  He also doesn't have roam from position available so would behave differently from a B2B who has that locked in.

[westy8chimp]

I'm not seeing much lateral at all. I'm not expecting him to hug the touchline by any means

in terms of analysis his heat map etc all reflect very similar to a BBM/CMs

in terms of ME he still appears to be making attacking runs... i.e. if my right wing  has the ball and running forward... Kante is making a forward run to edge of the box... where, IMO, he should shuttle across and cover.

 

Your reasons 'hold pos' and 'no roam' are understandable ... but disappointing! it's another role that I don't really feel works as it should. It's not unique enough.

...meh

[Cleon]

Your fullbacks will be making his behaviour seem a bit odd too, as both are on support. Meaning they'll be forcing the Carrilero inwards and upwards higher than he normally would because the supporting fullbacks will be occupying the same/simliar space to that of what the Carrilero should be occupying. The same with the two wide players you use.

I gave a lot of feedback on his role to SI so understand how it should work and how it currently does. I requested that the role should not be available when utilised with wingers of any kind whether that be AML/R/MR/ML positions. As the role is designed to have neither of those in the side.

When utilising the role with players in those positions then the role just becomes a BBM/CM which defeats the point of the role. 100% it should have restrictions of when it can be used, so that the role stays unique like intended and more importantly, behaves like it should.

[yonko]

@Cleon so would you say that the role is intended to play as designed when there is no player in AM R/L or M R/L position, like narrow 41212, 4312, 4132, etc?

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, yonko said:

@Cleon so would you say that the role is intended to play as designed when there is no player in AM R/L or M R/L position, like narrow 41212, 4312, 4132, etc?

Yeah the role compensates for a lack of wide players hence why it doesn’t make sense to have the role available when using them.

[yonko]

It makes sense. 

So if there is only a fullback or wingback out wide (on the same side as him), then the Carrilero's positioning, up or down, would depend on the fullback's/wingback's duty. More attacking fullback/wingback means Carrilero will play underneath him and be less advanced. More defensive FB/WB, means more aggressive/adventurous Carrilero. Is that correct?

 

[Cleon]

45 minutes ago, yonko said:

It makes sense. 

So if there is only a fullback or wingback out wide (on the same side as him), then the Carrilero's positioning, up or down, would depend on the fullback's/wingback's duty. More attacking fullback/wingback means Carrilero will play underneath him and be less advanced. More defensive FB/WB, means more aggressive/adventurous Carrilero. Is that correct?

 

Spot on yeah

[westy8chimp]

@Cleon yeh agree... Full back and wide attackers are having knock on effect.

Kind of annoying how the role changes to adapt to your tactic...(i know that sounds weird as it should be a benefit!) 

If i have a setup that means i have three players tripping over each other in the same place and im exposed elsewhere i should be punished for it so i can learn. 

As it is the CAR is behaving like a BBM getting good avg rating and im unbeatable making it seem like ive chosen a solid tactic

[yonko]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

Spot on yeah

I like this effect. It is logical, at least for me. Are there other roles who adapt to the roles/positions around them? I believe all of them should have this adaptability coded.

[HAMMERIRON]

On 3/21/2018 at 17:46, Cleon said:

Your fullbacks will be making his behaviour seem a bit odd too, as both are on support. Meaning they'll be forcing the Carrilero inwards and upwards higher than he normally would because the supporting fullbacks will be occupying the same/simliar space to that of what the Carrilero should be occupying. The same with the two wide players you use.

I gave a lot of feedback on his role to SI so understand how it should work and how it currently does. I requested that the role should not be available when utilised with wingers of any kind whether that be AML/R/MR/ML positions. As the role is designed to have neither of those in the side.

When utilising the role with players in those positions then the role just becomes a BBM/CM which defeats the point of the role. 100% it should have restrictions of when it can be used, so that the role stays unique like intended and more importantly, behaves like it should.

@Cleon How would a Carrilero act if you only have a winger on attack in the MR position and no full backs on the same wing? I am trying to work out how best to defend that flank by either using a Carrilero in the MCR position or maybe a DM or BWM in the DMR postion instead. 

[FMunderachiever]

Carilerios are good for the christmas tree

[HAMMERIRON]

On 4/12/2018 at 12:20, HAMMERIRON said:

@Cleon How would a Carrilero act if you only have a winger on attack in the MR position and no full backs on the same wing? I am trying to work out how best to defend that flank by either using a Carrilero in the MCR position or maybe a DM or BWM in the DMR postion instead. 

Does anyone know the answer to my question?

[herne79]

40 minutes ago, HAMMERIRON said:

Does anyone know the answer to my question?

Try it out, see if it gives you the cover you are after.  You're asking a question about a somewhat unusual set up to use the role in a situation it's not really designed for, so give it a go and see.

However, if you're not using any fullbacks and your winger has an attack duty you may need to do other things to ensure that flank isn't horribly exposed.  But to know for certain you'll need to try it.

[HAMMERIRON]

On 4/13/2018 at 17:53, herne79 said:

Try it out, see if it gives you the cover you are after.  You're asking a question about a somewhat unusual set up to use the role in a situation it's not really designed for, so give it a go and see.

However, if you're not using any fullbacks and your winger has an attack duty you may need to do other things to ensure that flank isn't horribly exposed.  But to know for certain you'll need to try it.

Will do & thanks

[YasoKuul]

Am 21.3.2018 um 18:46 schrieb Cleon:

Your fullbacks will be making his behaviour seem a bit odd too, as both are on support. Meaning they'll be forcing the Carrilero inwards and upwards higher than he normally would because the supporting fullbacks will be occupying the same/simliar space to that of what the Carrilero should be occupying. The same with the two wide players you use.

I gave a lot of feedback on his role to SI so understand how it should work and how it currently does. I requested that the role should not be available when utilised with wingers of any kind whether that be AML/R/MR/ML positions. As the role is designed to have neither of those in the side.

When utilising the role with players in those positions then the role just becomes a BBM/CM which defeats the point of the role. 100% it should have restrictions of when it can be used, so that the role stays unique like intended and more importantly, behaves like it should.

I try to implement a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond with two CAR and two WB(s) as right+left back for a conservative defence line. I want to avoid attacking roles and would like to know if WB(s) are sufficient to occupy other spaces as the Carrilero?