How to achieve a solid defence?

[zio_cantante]

Hi all,

i'm currently finding a lot of trouble defending from crosses. I don't think that the problem is in the overall tatcic (even if there is also room to improve ) and i'll explain you why: the problem is not that i have no cover because too many players are high up the pitch, nor the excessive freedom left to opposing crossers. The problem is that, despite an advantage in numbers in the penalty area, opposing forwards most of the times find a way to score or at least to test my gk. The instruction that confuses me most is the TI "use tighter marking". I initially used that TI in order to have a better pressing in the opposing third, and in that sense it worked well. But, as a drawback, when whe were forced to defend i found often two or even three of my defenders marking the same opponent, obviously leaving another striker completely free to shot. So i've dropped off that TI, and the results are different but not better: now seems that my defenders just "admire" the ball crossed, not caring abaut opposing strikers that have space and time to attack the ball.

Here is the tactic, however as i said before i'm having major problems only with that particular aspect and with the overall tactic i'm currently quite happy. Because of the control mentality and the high closing down in t wuold have been ok if most problems were from balls over the top, but these goals conceded from crosses leave me not happy at all. The only relevant PI here is  "much less closing down" for CBs.

An other thing, as you may assume, i'm managing Napoli so, while not obviously the best in the world, my defenders aren't bad at all.

I would really appreciate any help so thanks in advance!

[Torskus77]

Basically, your defence has no protection. A DLP isn't going to hold it all together, especially Control Mentality on Very fluid.  Every player you have bar two center backs and the DLP joins the transition when you win the ball back, then I guess you are being left totally exposed. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Torskus77

[Redfern]

I have found that small changes can make a big difference. My first season with Everton I conceded 67 goals in the premier league , luckily I scored a bucket load...

Second season I started experimenting with my 2 central defenders, and found that having both set to defensive centre back (d) has brought me untold defensive joy. I've even kept some clean sheets and scraped games 1-0 which I never did in season 1.

The other thing I found was setting a couple of players to 'stay back if needed' on offensive  corners and freekicks stopped me conceding goals on the counter when playing control or attacking mentality, and I play fairly wide which helps to have bodies out on the flanks stopping crosses coming in

[Rashidi]

Change the FB to a WB on defend and change the FB on the left flank to an IWB(D) and see how you do.

[Keyzer Soze]

This is something that i always struggle a bit in FM: what set of PI's we should use to get a solid defense.

For example, because i usually use the TI to press more, i tend to tell my central defenders to press less, so that they stick more to the position. Also because of that i've stop using the mark tighter PI in my central defenders, but use on my fullbacks.

Just curious on how you set your defenders. Do you use any PI's?

[herne79]

3 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Just curious on how you set your defenders. Do you use any PI's?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Sometimes as you describe.  Also don't ignore the Aggression attribute.  It's kind of like a natural press for players as Aggression increases.  Personally I try to avoid high Aggression central defenders unless I'm using someone at DMC otherwise they can step up and out of line at dangerous times.

[HUNT3R]

I don't set any PIs and my defence is usually solid. My entire team, not just the defence, will operate as a unit.

[Keyzer Soze]

@Herne79

I usually play with a 4123 wide DM formation, so because i have a player in the DM position, i think it's more logical that the central defenders should be told to press less.

The mark tighter PI is more confusing to me. Apart from the situation that you use the "play offside" TI, should the "mark tighter" PI be always select for the defenders?

Edited January 16, 2018 by Keyzer Soze

[zio_cantante]

Thanks to everyone for the answers! Probably I wans't able to describe my problem accurately, so lately i will let images speak for me. However, i have tried some of your suggestions.

 

Il 14/1/2018 in 23:57 , Torskus77 ha scritto:

Basically, your defence has no protection. A DLP isn't going to hold it all together, especially Control Mentality on Very fluid.  Every player you have bar two center backs and the DLP joins the transition when you win the ball back, then I guess you are being left totally exposed. 

Yes probably if I saw that formation posted by another person i would have the same doubts. But i can assure you that i've never seen big problems regarding too many players forward (at least not yet , i've only played about 15 matches with this system). I mean, sometimes we are caught out of position but it's just few times, and it's a risk that i have to run playing in this way. Probably the high press and the good offside trap (even if not selected as TI) are helping a lot.

 

Il 15/1/2018 in 05:19 , Redfern ha scritto:

I have found that small changes can make a big difference. My first season with Everton I conceded 67 goals in the premier league , luckily I scored a bucket load...

Second season I started experimenting with my 2 central defenders, and found that having both set to defensive centre back (d) has brought me untold defensive joy. I've even kept some clean sheets and scraped games 1-0 which I never did in season 1.

The other thing I found was setting a couple of players to 'stay back if needed' on offensive  corners and freekicks stopped me conceding goals on the counter when playing control or attacking mentality, and I play fairly wide which helps to have bodies out on the flanks stopping crosses coming in

 

Il 15/1/2018 in 12:14 , Rashidi ha scritto:

Change the FB to a WB on defend and change the FB on the left flank to an IWB(D) and see how you do.

I was not likely to use defensive centre backs because they don't match how i want to play, due to direct passes. However i've tried them for some matches and both my cbs played greatly. I still can't explain that because i have always thought that cb roles differed only for on the ball behavior. May be that i have just been lucky in this last matches, i really don't know!

Regarding the fullbacks i've tried for a some minutes the IWB but I really don't like how it plays, so I returned my old the FB(A). On the right the change was great, the defend duty helped a lot, freeing the left cb to go wider if necessary. I think i'll try a WB(D), to make him work a little more like Hysaj in real life.

2 ore fa, Keyzer Soze ha scritto:

This is something that i always struggle a bit in FM: what set of PI's we should use to get a solid defense.

For example, because i usually use the TI to press more, i tend to tell my central defenders to press less, so that they stick more to the position. Also because of that i've stop using the mark tighter PI in my central defenders, but use on my fullbacks.

Just curious on how you set your defenders. Do you use any PI's?

The only PI's i use (if you are asking to me ) is "much less closing down" for my cbs, as without that PI they were going too much around the pitch.

 

Now i would have liked to post a video to show better where my concerns are but i can't export them, so i'll go with some screenshots:

Here is the issue i had when i was using tight marking TI. It's an away CL match against Celtic. We have a great numerical advantage in the box  (8 vs 4) but 3(!) of my defenders ar marking the ball carrier (you see that better in the second screenshot). The red circle is where one of my three players should have been in order to intercept the pass (i'm not a paint master ). Add to that that my n17 is the CC(A) and he's not the best defensively, so their n18 can score an easy tap in. But in my opinion the greatest problem here is the 3vs1 that leaved that space in front of the goal.

Now the issue that i have without that TI. It's an away match against Crotone. Again you can see that i have a great numerical advantage (4vs1 in the centre of the box), and this time my defenders seem to just not care about the opposing striker (expecially n62 who is very close to him). So the result is their striker free to head and obviously to score.

Now i know that they are just 2 examples and so may be that are just player mistakes, but i feel that there is some reason behind, because of the almost opposite behavior between mark tighter being selected or not.

Again, thanks in advance!

[herne79]

5 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

The mark tighter PI is more confusing to me. Apart from the situation that you use the "play offside" TI, should the "mark tighter" PI be always select for the defenders?

If you use Mark Tighter your defenders had better be damn good at Marking.  And then hope they don't face attackers with great off the ball movement.

[Redfern]

I'm not sure about the tight marking but your observations are interesting. Personally I don't bother with tight marking unless its late in the game and I'm trying to shut up shop to grind out a win. In both scenarios though you have conceded goals from wide opposition players sneaking a cross in behind your defence. You're playing a control mentality and fairly narrow formation. I would look at changing these. By playing control mentality you have a higher defensive line, so opposition can sneak around behind you,and by being narrow you are forcing all your players into the box and have no LB/RB wider to stop the crosses coming in. 

Try playing balanced / fairly wide and drop the defensive line back a little, 

I also see you are playing with a very fluid team shape, I actually find that a structured shape ensures the players follow my instructions much better. Less freedom for their own judgement  

[(sic)]

13 hours ago, Redfern said:

I'm not sure about the tight marking but your observations are interesting. Personally I don't bother with tight marking unless its late in the game and I'm trying to shut up shop to grind out a win. In both scenarios though you have conceded goals from wide opposition players sneaking a cross in behind your defence. You're playing a control mentality and fairly narrow formation. I would look at changing these. By playing control mentality you have a higher defensive line, so opposition can sneak around behind you,and by being narrow you are forcing all your players into the box and have no LB/RB wider to stop the crosses coming in. 

Try playing balanced / fairly wide and drop the defensive line back a little, 

I also see you are playing with a very fluid team shape, I actually find that a structured shape ensures the players follow my instructions much better. Less freedom for their own judgement  

From what I've gathered around here, width setting doesn't really affect width when you are defending.

 

@zio_cantante

I would suggest lowering your closing down from much more to more.

 

 

In both situations there are 3 of your players closing down the player that's holding the ball.

In the 1st picture that you posted I think that's exactly why there isn't a player around the area you marked with a circle.

Not sure if that's the main reason you conceded in the 2nd situation.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by (sic)

[ajsr1982]

I'll tack on the end of this, because I'm having similar issues. The context being that I've gone from having the best defence in the league, but after being promoted that's clearly not going to be the case and I need to adjust accordingly. My instinct was to fall back on a tactic in FM17 that served me well when I was one of the weaker teams in the league.

GK-D

FB-D   DC-D   DC-D   FB-S

DM-D

W-A   CM-S   CM-A   W-S

DLF-A

A reasonably standard 4-1-4-1 with some attacking threat. Low block, push the play into the congested middle with OIs. No PIs or TIs to speak of other than 'Defend Deeper'. Standard/Structured.

There's some risk vs reward going on, but I'm trying to avoid having zero attack threat. As I said, this played out nicely for me in FM17 when I didn't have the best squad in the league. However, in FM18, I really struggle to carry any attacking threat with this system. Furthermore, the defensivel stability is hit and miss. In some games, it works, and I'll play out an awful 0-0. In other games however, I can be on the end of a pasting.

I'm watching an analysing, of course, but I'm at something of a loss as to how to go about improving this, or getting that consistent defensive stability I'm after.

 

[jc577]

1 hour ago, ajsr1982 said:

I'll tack on the end of this, because I'm having similar issues. The context being that I've gone from having the best defence in the league, but after being promoted that's clearly not going to be the case and I need to adjust accordingly. My instinct was to fall back on a tactic in FM17 that served me well when I was one of the weaker teams in the league.

GK-D

FB-D   DC-D   DC-D   FB-S

DM-D

W-A   CM-S   CM-A   W-S

DLF-A

A reasonably standard 4-1-4-1 with some attacking threat. Low block, push the play into the congested middle with OIs. No PIs or TIs to speak of other than 'Defend Deeper'. Standard/Structured.

There's some risk vs reward going on, but I'm trying to avoid having zero attack threat. As I said, this played out nicely for me in FM17 when I didn't have the best squad in the league. However, in FM18, I really struggle to carry any attacking threat with this system. Furthermore, the defensivel stability is hit and miss. In some games, it works, and I'll play out an awful 0-0. In other games however, I can be on the end of a pasting.

I'm watching an analysing, of course, but I'm at something of a loss as to how to go about improving this, or getting that consistent defensive stability I'm after.

 

Looks as if you’re playing a crossing game, which is fine, but seen as you only have one forward (who will drop deep at times), occasionally there may not be anyone in the box to get in the end of the crosses. The CM-a will get into the box, as will the winger on the opposite side, but may not enter the box early enough, have you seen this at all? I’d look at changing the W-A to an IW-A to add a bit more variation, and will be more of a goal threat. Another potential change is the FB-D to a DFB-D so he looks to release the attacking wide-player on that side with direct passes as per his pi’s.

[ajsr1982]

1 hour ago, jc577 said:

Looks as if you’re playing a crossing game, which is fine, but seen as you only have one forward (who will drop deep at times), occasionally there may not be anyone in the box to get in the end of the crosses. The CM-a will get into the box, as will the winger on the opposite side, but may not enter the box early enough, have you seen this at all? I’d look at changing the W-A to an IW-A to add a bit more variation, and will be more of a goal threat. Another potential change is the FB-D to a DFB-D so he looks to release the attacking wide-player on that side with direct passes as per his pi’s.

From what I can see, it seems to be a case of wingers having a lower propensity to dribble with the ball than in FM17, trying a low-percentage pass instead. My main observation, but I could be wrong.

In any case, I posted this really because this should be defensively sound, most of the time, but seems to struggle fairly often. Determination levels in my team are relatively low, which could go some way to explaining things. Infuriating though.

[juusal]

One hint that has worked really well for me is to set the closing down of your center backs to less or, like I do, much less. I also tell fullbacks to close down less, maybe with the exception of an ML/R player in front of them.

The reasoning I have for doing this is that the closing down system does not pay much (any?) attention to other players. Starting with the fullbacks, if the opponent has a fullback who is supporting the attack, I often saw my fullback closing him down and leaving the winger completely free behind him. This issue is exaggerated by the players always closing down by running directly at the player, not minding about cutting down the passing lanes to anyone who is behind them. This is obviously suicidal as it results in free crosses and possibly my center backs stretched out wide to cover. With less closing down they tend to stick to the line and wait for a winger or midfielder to cover, and if not, I'd rather have them cross from deep than let them close to the goal.

With center backs it's sort of the same thing. I do not want them to step out of the line to close down a midfielder and leave huge gaps behind them, the defenders in FM are incredibly bad at covering these spaces and I would not want a 1v1 situation with my CB against their striker. I'd rather have the center back stay in line, only come out when the ball gets closer to the defensive line, and wait for one of my hard working DMs/CMs to come help out by closing down the ball carrier.

Generally speaking, I find high defensive line and aggressive positioning to be much, much more useful for pressing game than closing down. In the situations I want to press, I increase my defensive line and often combine that with higher mentality and formation that allows me to do that. Only certain players in my squad close down heavily, my defensive line and the defensive midfielder (currently using 4-3-3/4-5-1) are all on closing down less or much less.

[Brian]

You close down much more and the bar from Close Down More to Much More isn't that huge - so I would decrease that. With Tight Marking you need defenders with good marking. 

[mr_tea82]

I'm still on FM18 and having similar problems. I cannot stop my defenders from following the ball all over the place.  

Below is a typical example for me.

As we lose the ball we're not looking in too bad shape as Chelsea break forward. 

But as the cross comes into Tammy Abraham, suddenly I've got 7 players just chasing after the ball leaving Eden Hazard (10) an easy chance to score when the ball is put across. I don't know why my right back particularly has gone right across to close the ball down. It's almost like watching kids football where they all just follow the ball around.

I know that I have an attacking formation with the 4-3-3 narrow, but I am playing with defensive mentality with a very fluid shape to try and get the whole team to have a more defensive mentality. I was getting absolutely annihilated down the flanks but have got the two of my forwards to specifically mark the fullbacks or wing backs and that has really helped.

However, I still struggle for my defenders to keep their shape when we're defending and in so many situations they are either step out of line or just chase after the ball. I've gone for a slightly higher defensive line so as not to be too deep, and on defensive mentality I was hoping that would achieve a more conventional defensive line overall. I'm using the team instruction to close down less and this has put both my centre backs on close down much less and full backs on close down sometimes. I'm also using the Team Instruction to be more disciplined. In this game particularly I had my full backs on Full Back defend though switched to support in the 2nd half. These screenshots show whilst the full backs were on defend duty.

My midfield 3 are a CM(D) a CM(S) and Box to Box midfielder.

I know it's on an older version of the game but does anyone have any advice on how I might instruct my players to keep their shape when defending taking into account that I've already set closing down to less and much less for my centre backs.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by mr_tea82