Turning possession into goals (FM17)

[Harpoon76]

Twenty or so matches into the first season with Leeds.  Board has a requirement for possession football along with a mid-table finish.

The obvious resource here is Cleon's thread Art of Possession thread

My tactic:

• WBs to provide width and an outlet ball, though as Retain Possession and WBIB are active, we shouldn't be cross-happy
• AP on the AMR can drift inside to link up with the two CMs (which also leaves space for the WB(A) to move into
• Like Cleon's guide, AML/AMR are on support so they track back - we aren't the best team in the league so can't be too gung-ho and leave the defence over-exposed
• F9 to drop deep, again link up with the midfielders and then make another body arriving late in the box
• I've recently added a PI for Get Further Forward for the BBM to encourage him to get into the box, ideally running onto a ball through the CBs and thus presenting a good chance

Now we are doing well with possession:

But as the 0-0 scoreline suggests, we aren't turning that into 3 points very well.  The issue against Rotherham seemed to be, that despite asking for a patience and possession, somebody eventually gets bored and tries a screamer from outside the area.

As an example, Wrighton has the ball and Hernandez (AMR AP) looks to be running into the area but Wrighton shoots instead:

This was inside a minute and I thought we'd do well in the match:

Nice teamwork with both CMs linking up with the F9 who plays in the IF(S) and Dallas should really score from here:

Any suggestions to make possession equal prizes?

 

[Hagginho]

What i can see is that all of your players will take up the same space and make it very tight for the creators to create anything. And who are they going to pass the ball to. 

As you can see on of the the screenshots, its like 6-7 players that want to occupy the same space and make it so hard to create a good chance and who are making forward runs? The BBM will find it hard to find any space to run when theres players in front of him. When i try to play a similar formation and narrow style i play  direct football so that the opposition doesnt have the time to recover and nullify the space. 

But im not really a pro at FM2017. 

[Harpoon76]

I do want the players to be close together, classic triangles to give passing options.

Have since played two more matches, the most recent a 1-0 loss away at Brighton.

What I'm finding frustrating is that even with TIs of Retain Possession and WBIB, we are still just cracking off pointless shots from outside the box

Dallas shooting from outside the box

I've given him the Shoot Less PI to try to offset the annoying PPM of Shoots from Distance

Luque shots from here:

I tried making the BBM a CM(A) to be more attacking focussed and the DM from S to D to reflect that.

[yonko]

Couple of things I can recommend to try:

- change the duty of your IF to attack 

- add Pass Into Space TI

If your players are shooting too much even though they are instructed not to, then that means their movement is not too good and they can't find each other for passing combinations.

Another thing you might wanna try is to lower the Mentality to Standard but set Tempo to normal. That will make your team more patient but each player will move the ball quicker away from pressure than on Lower Tempo. Tempo is how long do player hang on to the ball and take their time. Mentality is the urgency of your team, amongst other things. Try it and see what happens.

Also consider the following. If your MCR is CM-A or BBM with Get Further Forward, he is quite offensive. It is risky to have an attacking wingback on the same side, even though you have AP-S ahead of him on the same side. Meanwhile on the other wing, if your IF is changed to Attack duty, the RPM will need more options, therefore it might worth changing the DL to Attack duty. Try this too and see how it plays.

Caution: don't try all these things at the same time. One by one, so you can analyze the effects each suggestion has and if you are happy with the play/outcome.

 

[Harpoon76]

I moved from Control to Standard but upped the tempo.

Ended with another 1-0 loss.  I chased the game when later on losing and ditched the DM for an AMC (changed the CMs to DLP(D) and BBM(S)) but nothing seems to work.

I really don't understand what you do to stop players just utterly wasting possession by endlessly trying 30 yard screamers.  What is the point of lowering the tempo and adding TIs Retain Possession and WBIB if they are ignored?

62% possession but we didn't get a shot on target until the 92nd minute

[villuminatic]

I would definitely try to set one of your front 3 to attack, perhaps the IF or even the F9 to a DLF [A]. I run a very similar formation, and the tempo should be normal or higher. 

[AFCBeer]

I'd second the suggestion of a DLF(a). Will still be deep enough for a passing option in build up play, but crucially can provide a few more penetrative movement too. 

The main issue I see is the Retain Possession TI. This is not necessary in a possession tactic and it's use is more a time wasting tactic late on in a match. 

[Harpoon76]

Thanks.

Tactic evolved to:

• AML IF(S) has sit narrower, get further forward and shoot less - hopefully bring him closer to the central striker but offset Dallas's "Shoots from Distance" PPM.
• Retain possession has gone

Next result?  A dismal 3-1 loss:

Still way too many shots from outside the box:

Example - my BBM picks up the ball:

Moves forward and.... <deep breath> shoots Why?  IIRC, at that time mentality would be Standard, tempo normal (for Standard) and WBIB enabled.

Late on I'd swapped the DM for an AMC again.  Subbed on a pacer winger at AMR.  What does he?  Shoot from here instead of crossing!

 

 

 

 

[DerKopite]

Personally, I would switch the RPM to a DLP - making the middle a bit less clogged. Also, make the IF on the left a bit more attacking; variation in attack is great, you then have a direct threat from the left cutting in and a playmaker drifting inside off the right with a wing-back overlapping. You also then have a DLP and DM back to mop up any spills your attack leaves. 

If I was in your position, I'd also switch to fluid and instruct your ST and IF to close down more. Hope this helps!

Oh, and also, if you want the players to cross more take work ball into box off! 

[MHovel]

According to your 1st post, the problems I found in this tactic:

1. Lack of penetration (need to add attacking roles only for players that CAN be a threat in front).

2. take retain possession off and take pass shorter instead if you want to instruct players to pass it shorter (If im not wrong the highly structured is also instructing players to look for simple options, than not sure how short pass or retain possession will be effective, but it's only my assumption).

3. A. Still according to your 1st post, adding play fairly wide instruction might be helpfull (maybe even much wider but this might need to analyze after you change it to fairely wide) because if your players doesn't have good 1st touch, passing, compusre, technical, decisions and technical abillities it will be hard against oppositions that closing you down (also there is not much distance between your players when they are passing between each other, and that's can lead for easy lose balls (which can lead to counter attacks) and you will found how easy is for you opposition to close you down (also, the width instruction is only when your team have the possession).

B. the opposition will just drop deeper because you are retaining possession (which is more suitable for time wasting and when you are trying to hold the lead) and they will just wait for the right opportonity to counter attack you.

In FM17 you will notice that tweaking TI's is necessary almost every match (either slight changes or big ones if you are doing really badly, even changing sometimes shape and mentality, tactical familiarity is bar means nothing in this game, don't take it seriously).

this is atleast my experience with this specific version so far.

[Overmars]

Everything seems careful, very careful. It's tough to create offense by being careful. You need some great vision, technique, and off the ball movement to do so. If you have those players then great. If not then they will struggle to find any offense and eventually show their frustration by blasting long shots.

Also, players with low teamwork will be less likely to follow your instructions. Make sure you have obedient players if you really want to specify what to do.

And you can't test tactical changes without considering how other variables are impacting your results. If you lose a couple of matches then your next match outcome might be more influenced by your team's form and morale than by any tactical move you make.

[SweatyBob]

43 minutes ago, Overmars said:

If not then they will struggle to find any offense and eventually show their frustration by blasting long shots.

The trouble is that the OP has shown screenshots were the players have been in good offensive positions with options which a half decent footballer would recognise - The trouble seems to be the age old FM one of players taking ridiculous shots when there are much better options available. It's almost as if the ME is prioritising shortest distance to goal over best route to goal.

It seems overly difficult to say to a player "When you're in that area with the ball.....don't bloody shoot!". 

 

[Dr. Hook]

The problem is not the match engine, but the tactic. If you use shouts like retain possession and work ball into the box, this is what can happen. Harpoon, you ask why the winger doesn't cross in your last example. It is because you have WBIB active. That tells players not to cross so often, so if he has a lane to the goal, he shoots it. Take that shout off, and he more than likely sends a ball in.  As others noted, it is a very conservative setup. All the players you expect to score for you are on support roles, save the DLF and he is a deep dropping creator. Where they go on the pitch it is logical that you are going to see shots from there.

 

The other example with McGinn, take a better look- where else is he to go with ball? He has two men on him, two behind him and the two passing options  to his left are covered.  More often than not, you'll see a shot in that situation.

59 minutes ago, SweatyBob said:

The trouble is that the OP has shown screenshots were the players have been in good offensive positions with options which a half decent footballer would recognise - The trouble seems to be the age old FM one of players taking ridiculous shots when there are much better options available. It's almost as if the ME is prioritising shortest distance to goal over best route to goal.

It seems overly difficult to say to a player "When you're in that area with the ball.....don't bloody shoot!".

The problem is an age old one of people setting up a tactic without really understanding what it is they are setting up. If you tell players to retain possession, for example, that is what they will try to do. When they lack a good passing option (according to the parameters you set such as shorter passing, retain ball, wbib) nearby and come under pressure, they will shoot rather than lose the ball. People complain that the game doesn't have the players follow their instructions, but in point of fact it does, perhaps too much so at times. People see a lot of long shots at times, so what do they typically do? Slap WBIB on the team as a whole, rather than use a PI on the offending individual(s), then the whole team will start looking pass instead of shot, crosses dry up, etc.

Oh and on the Luque thing, PPMs trump PI and TI- so he will always take more long shots than you want because of it. It is a part of his game- train it out of him or else you are stuck with it. A PI isn't going to fix it.

[mikcheck]

But doesnt WBIB only reduces long shots and crosses?  If there is a lack of penetration, that TI wont do much, players will still try long shots.

[Dr. Hook]

16 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

But doesnt WBIB only reduces long shots and crosses?  If there is a lack of penetration, that TI wont do much, players will still try long shots.

Yes, that was my point- if there isn't any penetration into the box, it won't solve much and can actually make the situation worse.

[mikcheck]

Yes that's what i thought too

[Harpoon76]

I'm turning into the Tinkerman.  Tactic is currently:

I've just taken off Roam from Positions - although that means more passing options, I'm thinking attackers aren't getting forward enough.

CM(A) is there to get into the box as a deeper runner.  RPM sit a little bit deeper, with the DLP(D) further back to recycle possession.  IF(A) on the right should be a goal scorer, the IF(S) supporting and coming inside to make space for the WB(A) to bomb past.

Still struggling after what looked to be a promising run, especially the cup match against Swansea.

We had 61% possession against Cardiff but still can't find the penetration:

 

[Dr. Hook]

So what is it that you are seeing happen? Based on the screenshots of the shots taken, it looks like as a low tempo team, opponents are taking advantage of the time to get organized and then keeping you blocked out of the area. How are your transitions from midfield to the final third looking? You could look to increase tempo a bit in order to move the ball faster so as to catch them defense moving.

By the way, no problem being a tinker man if you know what you are tinkering with and what it is doing :). Tell me about highly structured and your choice for that? That will keep everyone playing rigidly the position and duty you've set for them, right. It also reduces creativity which is what you probably need if you are looking to unlock teams. Otherwise you pass it around the edge of the area and eventually, when there are no good passes, or pressure, they shoot from out there. It does give you a nice tight defense, but if you are struggling for offense, it might not be helping you so much.

Suggestions to think about: dropping to structured or even flexible (I would try flexible for starters and see how your off the ball movement looks for your attackers). Then, you might try some pass into space, if you have good off the ball movement. If you are passing to feet against an organized defense, they are just going to block your men out and stay with them if they make any forward runs. You want some balls going to where they will end up. This comes with risk of turning it over, but pass into space is primarily an unlock instruction. You also should try dropping WBIB, as you have two wide attackers, and one of them (esp your fullback) is going to need to put some crosses in once in a while. Give the defense something to react to other than a slow cycle around the edge of the area.

 

 

[TimEdwins7]

Great thread and great advice, I have also learnt a lot from this. I am currently managing Coventry and employing the same core formation! 

Regards this thread, I would drop WBIB and add Play Wider. From the shot map it looks as though everything is too narrow. Maybe also even add Look for Overlap to get the wingbacks more involved and stretch opposition defences wider.