Trequartista as a second striker?

[crouchaldinho]

Anyone have any experience of using a trequartista as a second striker in, for instance, a 4-4-2?

Just wanted to hear some experiences of using the role in this position, as I have only used the TQ in the AM position.

[boogiept]

I already used one but it was in fm10. Worked quite well. I believe there is a tactic for fm11 that used one in st position. Can´t remember where it is, but i think it was a 442, or a 424.

[will8578]

minimal fuss 442 uses it matey

[sekor]

I used that in FM 2010 in a 4-4-2 with Erding ( a player who doesn't fit well with this setting ) but in game it was beautiful. Erding (with Move into channels) was always dangerous.

Imagine a 4-4-2 with Tevez or Cassano ( the two best player in the game for this role ) in TQ...

[balkhanac]

whic striking pair is best? Target man (att) i Complete Frwd...or...

[Jenko_EFC]

I use it alot when I play as Manchester United. Rooney and Berbatov partnership. I change it to the AMC if I want to clog the midfield a bit more. Last year, Rooney was the spearhead and Berbatov played behind him, spreading play and making through balls for Nani and Valencia but this year, like Ferguson has done in real life, Berbatov is the spearhead and Rooney plays behind him, dribbling past players, spreading the play that kind of thing but they "Swap Position" so they change during the game. Works pretty well.

[bothered]

In FM2011 i played a TQ alongside a Poacher, it came up with some really good attacking play. The TQ would come deep, looking for the ball, linking with my midfield and threading the ball through for his strike partner.

I've been trying it on FM2011 but with less success so far. I tried it as a 3 with Villa - Messi - Bojan but Messi doesn't drop back deep enough for how I want it to be so I've just moved him to AMC for now whilst I sort it out. The main problem I found is that it can be hard to find a player suited to the role sometimes.

[Smallen]

         Valdes

     Pique Puyol Abidal

Alves  Busquets

     Xavi  Iniesta

                 Afellay

      Messi Villa

Messi plays as a trequartista up front for my Barca team. He's not set as the main playmaker though. Set Villa as an advanced forward and change his through balls to often, put Messi's runs with ball to often and runs from deep to sometimes and both will score for fun. The idea is for Alves to operate the whole right side

[phnompenhandy]

Does a TQ need to be a top class player? Has anyone tried it in the lower leagues?

[crouchaldinho]

He basically has to be a quality player at the level you are playing at Phnompenhandy, in my opinion. That's my general rule when using playmakers. If they are going to be the focal point of my team, they have to be the outstanding talent in my side.

I've used a TQ at Serie C1 level to extremely good effect. This was at the AM position though. I found a very talented player who was rated as good at Serie B level! He had all the right attributes in the right places and tore up the division!

[bothered]

Messi plays as a trequartista up front for my Barca team. He's not set as the main playmaker though. Set Villa as an advanced forward and change his through balls to often, put Messi's runs with ball to often and runs from deep to sometimes and both will score for fun. The idea is for Alves to operate the whole right side

Does Messi drop deep enough for you (assuming that's what you might be trying to achieve)? I bought Rivaldo just to have a look at him because he has the attributes of a TQ and there are differences in how they play. Rivaldo drops deep and looks to link the play whereas Messi doesn't seem to drop as much and just runs non-stop. Obviously the PPM's come into play and must change how the role is interpreted.

[aderow]

trequartista is my favorite role

ive been basically using it before it was even introduced in FM

[Smallen]

Does Messi drop deep enough for you (assuming that's what you might be trying to achieve)? I bought Rivaldo just to have a look at him because he has the attributes of a TQ and there are differences in how they play. Rivaldo drops deep and looks to link the play whereas Messi doesn't seem to drop as much and just runs non-stop. Obviously the PPM's come into play and must change how the role is interpreted.

I haven't particularly been paying attention to how deep he plays. Unfortunately, he refuses to learn new ppms as he so many already so you won't be able to teach him the 'comes deep to get ball'.

Try reducing Messi's mentality a lot and see if that makes a difference

[phnompenhandy]

He basically has to be a quality player at the level you are playing at Phnompenhandy, in my opinion. That's my general rule when using playmakers. If they are going to be the focal point of my team, they have to be the outstanding talent in my side.

I've used a TQ at Serie C1 level to extremely good effect. This was at the AM position though. I found a very talented player who was rated as good at Serie B level! He had all the right attributes in the right places and tore up the division!

I'll try it then. I'm just starting my second season with a non-league side. In the close season my academy sprouted an outstanding 16 year old regen striker. He's my best player by far and prob the best in the division. I experimented with a few roles in pre-season, settling on complete forward. But I feel he should play a support role so I'll see if he reacts to a TQ role.

[niton]

In perfect theory you could use a trequartista in a 4-4-2, but doing so is contradictory, trequartista essentially means "3/4 through", which in football is related to as playing in-between the basic 3 lines (defensive line, midfield line, forward line), a 4-4-2 uses 3 lines; modern football teams use much more than that, Arsenal, Barcelona, Inter and Chelsea at times (when I've watched them) use even 5 lines, thus a trequartista is very, very ideally suited to the 4-2-3-1 formation, either as the attacking central midfielder of the 4-2-3-1 or even as the solo centre forward 4-2-3-1.

A perfect example of a trequartista would be someone like the German footballer Ozil, against England in the World Cup he constantly played in between the lines in 2 ways - between the vertical line of defensive midfield and defence, and in between the horizontal line of the full-back and the central zone in which he is positioned in, a trequartista thus, to be fully utilised, needs good movement and the ability to not just play centrally - but to constantly go wide, and it's not a good idea doing that in a 4-4-2 as there are already 2 wingers who get the ball fairly deep (as they are ML and MR and not AML or AMR).

You are then left with an idea of doing what Slaven Bilic did with his Croatian team - making one of the wide midfielders in a 4-4-2 an AML or AMR, and setting him to be a trequartista in a wide position, which is essentially a "central winger" - another contradiction, but a very fascinating idea and it would wreck most teams if done defensively as there isn't a solution to beat it, to be honest.

[phnompenhandy]

He basically has to be a quality player at the level you are playing at Phnompenhandy, in my opinion. That's my general rule when using playmakers. If they are going to be the focal point of my team, they have to be the outstanding talent in my side.

I've used a TQ at Serie C1 level to extremely good effect. This was at the AM position though. I found a very talented player who was rated as good at Serie B level! He had all the right attributes in the right places and tore up the division!

I'll try it then. I'm just starting my second season with a non-league side. In the close season my academy sprouted an outstanding 16 year old regen striker. He's my best player by far and prob the best in the division. I experimented with a few roles in pre-season, settling on complete forward. But I feel he should play a support role so I'll see if he reacts to a TQ role.

[11v11]

i use a creative trequartista who is pretty good off the ball and has good passing, my player goes into positions that gives him space and time to quickly lays off nice passes to my quick poachers, quite effective on the counter.

[dz47]

Niton

I understand what you are saying in theory about the treq in the 442 but would you not say that bergkamp used to play that role for arsenal?

[chris2403]

loaned petrucci from man utd and so far playing him as TQ alongside craig mackail-smith has worked brilliantly, mackail-smith has 5 in 8 and petrucci as a TQ has 6 goals and 5 assists in 9 games

[jaycar]

Agreed, I think they work well as a partnership with a poacher,

, I've tried it in a 4222 formation. High flair is a good idea as well as the usual creativity etc.

[chris2403]

also probably the only role ive found for a player that dosnt need pace and/or acceleration

[AcidBurn]

I used Tevez in this role teamed up with Bent at Sunderland and he was awesome in the first season played 26 games got 21 goals and 18 assists with an average rating of 8.13. The next season he was not good at all getting 7 goals in 20 games and 3 assists so I sold him and changed the system.

The minimal fuss 4-4-2 using a trequartista and a poacher I think.

[Jenko_EFC]

An impressive guide about Trequartista's here by Doig called "What's A Trequartista?": http://www.theawaystand.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/4141-whats-a-trequartista/

[yonko1]

In perfect theory you could use a trequartista in a 4-4-2, but doing so is contradictory, trequartista essentially means "3/4 through", which in football is related to as playing in-between the basic 3 lines (defensive line, midfield line, forward line), a 4-4-2 uses 3 lines; modern football teams use much more than that, Arsenal, Barcelona, Inter and Chelsea at times (when I've watched them) use even 5 lines, thus a trequartista is very, very ideally suited to the 4-2-3-1 formation, either as the attacking central midfielder of the 4-2-3-1 or even as the solo centre forward 4-2-3-1.

A perfect example of a trequartista would be someone like the German footballer Ozil, against England in the World Cup he constantly played in between the lines in 2 ways - between the vertical line of defensive midfield and defence, and in between the horizontal line of the full-back and the central zone in which he is positioned in, a trequartista thus, to be fully utilised, needs good movement and the ability to not just play centrally - but to constantly go wide, and it's not a good idea doing that in a 4-4-2 as there are already 2 wingers who get the ball fairly deep (as they are ML and MR and not AML or AMR).

You are then left with an idea of doing what Slaven Bilic did with his Croatian team - making one of the wide midfielders in a 4-4-2 an AML or AMR, and setting him to be a trequartista in a wide position, which is essentially a "central winger" - another contradiction, but a very fascinating idea and it would wreck most teams if done defensively as there isn't a solution to beat it, to be honest.

That's not entirely true. Trequartista is an italian term meaning 3/4 specialist,i.e someone who's focus and specialty is the last 3 quarters of the field, he is free of defensive duties and it doesn't necessarily have to play between the lines. This role has been mostly used by italian teams as they've had many players in recent past that can play it - Baggio, Zola, Totti, Del Piero, etc. It has been used by Sacchi in his favorite 4-4-2, at Milan with Gullit as Trequartista and in the Italy NT with Baggio at the WC'94. If you notice in FM, the role has attacking mentality, but still low enough that in combination with no RFD makes the player drop deep. Therefore he does play between the midfield line and the attacking line. But most of all, his focus is on creating and scoring in attack. IRL currently, Messi plays that role to perfection in Pep's Barcelona.

[niton]

Trequartista is an italian term meaning 3/4 specialist,i.e someone who's focus and specialty is the last 3 quarters of the field, he is free of defensive duties and it doesn't necessarily have to play between the lines

I don't necessarily agree with that either, if you watched Euro 2000 then the 4 teams in the semi-finals (France, Italy, Portugal and Holland) all had 4 classic number "!0" - Zidance, Totti, Rui Costa and Bergkamp, none of these players had brilliant defensive abilities but I do remember Zidance tracking back a lot, as Costa, Bergkamp was more a more naturally forward player and Totti was the perfect trequartista - at times Costa and Bergkamp were ineffective by playing that role simply due to not understanding the role fully well, the trequartista essentially operates in the "grey" areas of the pitch, or in the areas where there are space, thus it would be inefficient for them to not play between the lines - they have been employed for that role purposely.

Sacchi's 4-4-2 at Milan did employ a trequartista - but the formation at times really became a 4-3-1-2 and at times 2-4-2-2 when in attack, add the exceptional idea of pressing and Sacchi's belief that the forwards and defenders should not be more than 25 yards further than each other when not on the ball, and you had a brilliant tactic, it is this that possibly disguises why the trequartista worked so well in this tactic; it was the intense pressing and the movement off the players in constantly different zones.

FM has several, several flaws in how they see the game, the starting positions are absolutely dreadfully designed; especially with the idea of "grey" zones, essentially the difference between FC (like a false nine) and an AMC (trequartista, advanced playmaker, etc) have too many stationary positions, thus I don't believe FM actually has the complete idea of what a trequartista is, same with a false nine, advanced playmaker, wing-back, or formations like 3-5-2, as a simulation it's good but at the higher levels the comparison of a trequartista in real life and in the game is very, very poor.

And I heavily disagree with Messi being seen as a trequartista; how can you see him as that, if I enquire? The closest to a real trequartista in the last 5 years or so is Yoann Gourcuff and Riquelme, Messi is not a trequartista in my view - he is a complete player and for Barcelona has several different roles, but this season he has been playing the false nine role very well, in equivalent terms, Wesley Sneijder for Inter in 2009/2010 played the false 10 role very well - he is a much better candidate for a trequartista than Messi is.

There is a difference in style between players like Ozil, Bergkamp, Gourcuff, Zola, Totti, Riquelme, Baggio, etc, compared to players like Messi - the first set are trequartistas in my view and the latter is not, more of a more complete, hybrid player who operates as a false nine to fully maximise his potential. There is some debate as to Bergkamp and Zola being a natural deep-lying forward and Gullit being more of a complete, advanced player than just a trequartista.

And you'll notice one thing about Bergkamp, Gourcuff, Zola, Totti, Riquelme, etc, compared to Messi - there is a huge difference of pace and acceleration, a trequartista does need some pace - but it's not essential for the role, a false nine role requires more pace, more agility and the ability to shift wide - it is in this that we see that even the modern trequartista's such as Sneijder and Ozil who often play on the flanks and have pace, have become much more complete players.

Additionally, with many teams fielding 2 defensive midfielders in the modern age (a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-2-1-3, for example) - this would totally negate the trequartista, but if you watch Messi play he is often advanced of a team's defensive central midfielders, adding more to my belief that he's not a trequartista - rather a false nine.

EDIT: How much of Sacchi's Milan have you seen? I would love to know more information about that team, Sacchi was ahead of his time with some of his ideas in my view.

[crouchaldinho]

That's not entirely true. Trequartista is an italian term meaning 3/4 specialist,i.e someone who's focus and specialty is the last 3 quarters of the field, he is free of defensive duties and it doesn't necessarily have to play between the lines. This role has been mostly used by italian teams as they've had many players in recent past that can play it - Baggio, Zola, Totti, Del Piero, etc. It has been used by Sacchi in his favorite 4-4-2, at Milan with Gullit as Trequartista and in the Italy NT with Baggio at the WC'94. If you notice in FM, the role has attacking mentality, but still low enough that in combination with no RFD makes the player drop deep. Therefore he does play between the midfield line and the attacking line. But most of all, his focus is on creating and scoring in attack. IRL currently, Messi plays that role to perfection in Pep's Barcelona.

Quite right.

This is from an excellent article on the Football Italiano website:

Trequartista (TQ)

The conventional offensive chemistry sees the SP building bridges between midfield and PP - receiving passes from the wings, initiating runs and supporting the PP, mainly. On occasions, the team is built in such a way that the bridge-building role is left to another kind of player - the trequartista. A TQ is a compromise between a midfielder and a striker. He operates in the trequarti - the Italian term to describe the space three-quarters of the way from one end of the pitch to the adversary goal. This kind of player is in fact quite rare and a much more modern invention than most commentators would like to believe. While simple ‘offensive midfielders’ are often deployed in the trequarti, a genuine TQ operates more centrally and specifically possesses skills which cross over with those of an SP. They are slower, but they possess an even superior shot from distance. They are not as gifted in one-on-one scenarios, but they are technically more versatile. Most importantly, a TQ invariably possesses outstanding passing talent and vision. This, coupled with basic defensive skills, means that a TQ will have an entire team built around him (typically by means of a 4-3-1-2) or else will not be deployed at all. There are traces of the role in old players such as Valentino Mazzola and Gianni Rivera, but the role of the Italian trequartista truly found its exegesis only in modern times by means of Francesco Totti.

In this article, PP refers to the Italian term prima punta and SP is, similarly, seconda punta.

[crouchaldinho]

Talking of the World Cup '94, which Yonko mentions in his post, can anyone tell me the system Italy played in that tournament? I fell in love with Baggio during that era.

[crouchaldinho]

Sorry for the double post. I searched on Google and found this line-up on Wikipedia:

[yonko1]

I don't necessarily agree with that either, if you watched Euro 2000 then the 4 teams in the semi-finals (France, Italy, Portugal and Holland) all had 4 classic number "!0" - Zidance, Totti, Rui Costa and Bergkamp, none of these players had brilliant defensive abilities but I do remember Zidance tracking back a lot, as Costa, Bergkamp was more a more naturally forward player and Totti was the perfect trequartista - at times Costa and Bergkamp were ineffective by playing that role simply due to not understanding the role fully well, the trequartista essentially operates in the "grey" areas of the pitch, or in the areas where there are space, thus it would be inefficient for them to not play between the lines - they have been employed for that role purposely.

Sacchi's 4-4-2 at Milan did employ a trequartista - but the formation at times really became a 4-3-1-2 and at times 2-4-2-2 when in attack, add the exceptional idea of pressing and Sacchi's belief that the forwards and defenders should not be more than 25 yards further than each other when not on the ball, and you had a brilliant tactic, it is this that possibly disguises why the trequartista worked so well in this tactic; it was the intense pressing and the movement off the players in constantly different zones.

FM has several, several flaws in how they see the game, the starting positions are absolutely dreadfully designed; especially with the idea of "grey" zones, essentially the difference between FC (like a false nine) and an AMC (trequartista, advanced playmaker, etc) have too many stationary positions, thus I don't believe FM actually has the complete idea of what a trequartista is, same with a false nine, advanced playmaker, wing-back, or formations like 3-5-2, as a simulation it's good but at the higher levels the comparison of a trequartista in real life and in the game is very, very poor.

And I heavily disagree with Messi being seen as a trequartista; how can you see him as that, if I enquire? The closest to a real trequartista in the last 5 years or so is Yoann Gourcuff and Riquelme, Messi is not a trequartista in my view - he is a complete player and for Barcelona has several different roles, but this season he has been playing the false nine role very well, in equivalent terms, Wesley Sneijder for Inter in 2009/2010 played the false 10 role very well - he is a much better candidate for a trequartista than Messi is.

There is a difference in style between players like Ozil, Bergkamp, Gourcuff, Zola, Totti, Riquelme, Baggio, etc, compared to players like Messi - the first set are trequartistas in my view and the latter is not, more of a more complete, hybrid player who operates as a false nine to fully maximise his potential. There is some debate as to Bergkamp and Zola being a natural deep-lying forward and Gullit being more of a complete, advanced player than just a trequartista.

And you'll notice one thing about Bergkamp, Gourcuff, Zola, Totti, Riquelme, etc, compared to Messi - there is a huge difference of pace and acceleration, a trequartista does need some pace - but it's not essential for the role, a false nine role requires more pace, more agility and the ability to shift wide - it is in this that we see that even the modern trequartista's such as Sneijder and Ozil who often play on the flanks and have pace, have become much more complete players.

Additionally, with many teams fielding 2 defensive midfielders in the modern age (a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-2-1-3, for example) - this would totally negate the trequartista, but if you watch Messi play he is often advanced of a team's defensive central midfielders, adding more to my belief that he's not a trequartista - rather a false nine.

EDIT: How much of Sacchi's Milan have you seen? I would love to know more information about that team, Sacchi was ahead of his time with some of his ideas in my view.

You seem to confuse the role of the Trequartista with that of the Advanced Playmaker IRL terms. Zidane for example, was always an Advanced Playmaker, never Trequartista. Same with Riquelme. Bergkamp played sometimes as Trequartista and other times as False Nine. Totti and Zola were Trequartistas. The easiest way to spot the difference between the two roles, is to pay attention when and where each functions on the field. Advanced playmakers are involved in the build-up all the time, including in their own half. While the Trequartista is functioning solely in the opposition half of the field, mainly in the transition between the middle 1/3 and the final 1/3. Advanced Playmakers can operate there too, and that is why it so hard to distinguish between the two. It is true that

Messi plays with far more creativity, dribbling and movement to be classified just as a False Nine. He has complete freedom of movement and decision-making, both trades of a Trequartista. Messi is also somewhat more free of defensive and pressuring functions, which are also trades of the Trequartista. The False Nine is similar in that the player drops deeper, but holds the ball more and plays far more simpler game, which Messi clearly does not. The way he plays is definitely as a Trequartista.

As for Sacchi's Milan, I remember how that was the first team that I saw dominate the game. I will admit that I was their fan, before 1990 when I pledged my allegiance to the mighty Catalan giants, because Hristo Stoitckov went to play there (I'm bulgarian living in US).

[yonko1]

Sorry for the double post. I searched on Google and found this line-up on Wikipedia:

That is correct, except that Baresi played on the left-hand side of the two central defenders;) That was the starting XI for the final, but in all matches, Roberto Baggio was deployed as Trequartista.

It very much resembles the legendary AC Milan line-up:

--------------------------------------Galli---------------------------------------

Tasotti--------------Costacurta----------------Baresi-----------------Maldini

Colombo-----------Ancelotti------------------Rijkaard---------------Donadonni

------------------------Gulitt--------------------Van Basten--------------------------

[higgins]

Sorry for the double post. I searched on Google and found this line-up on Wikipedia:

There were lots of debates in Italy regarding Baggio's role during his whole career, Platini brilliantly described him as a 9 and a half, not a classic ten and not a prima punta (9).

He played his whole career and gave his best beside a centravanti, Stefano Borgonovo at Fiorentina and Gianluca Vialli at Juventus.

During 1994 world cup he changed lots of partners upfront....Signori, Casiraghi, Massaro, basically he was the main reason why Italy reached the final.

The second one was the well known "culo di Sacchi" a famous Italian expression to indicate how Lady Luck was on his side during Usa 1994!

[crouchaldinho]

This passage on Baggio from one of Gab Marcotti's books would seem to sum it up pretty well Higgins:

Then there was Baggio, potentially the biggest headache of all. [...] Baggio's problem was that just about every manager he ever had struggled to find a rational place for him in the side, short of absolving him of all defensive duties, getting the rest of the team to work for him and letting him do whatever he liked. [...] And so Baggio was forever dogged by endless debate: Was he a striker? Was he a midfielder? Was he an attacking midfielder? Despite playing for clubs of the size of Milan, Inter and Juventus in his career it's fair to say that he really enjoyed only a season and a half of success at the highest level of club football. Instead, some of his best football came at smaller clubs late in his career, such as Brescia and Bologna, when the whole side was built around him.

I don't know about anyone else but Baggio was simply my favourite footballer of all time when he was playing. An utter genius, he was the man who made me fall in love with the whole idea of the trequartista.

During World Cup '94, I was an Italy fan just because of Baggio (England didn't qualify, of course). He was an utter genius and probably still is my favourite footballer of all time.

[niton]

You seem to confuse the role of the Trequartista with that of the Advanced Playmaker IRL terms. Zidane for example, was always an Advanced Playmaker, never Trequartista. Same with Riquelme. Bergkamp played sometimes as Trequartista and other times as False Nine. Totti and Zola were Trequartistas. The easiest way to spot the difference between the two roles, is to pay attention when and where each functions on the field. Advanced playmakers are involved in the build-up all the time, including in their own half. While the Trequartista is functioning solely in the opposition half of the field, mainly in the transition between the middle 1/3 and the final 1/3. Advanced Playmakers can operate there too, and that is why it so hard to distinguish between the two. It is true that

Messi plays with far more creativity, dribbling and movement to be classified just as a False Nine. He has complete freedom of movement and decision-making, both trades of a Trequartista. Messi is also somewhat more free of defensive and pressuring functions, which are also trades of the Trequartista. The False Nine is similar in that the player drops deeper, but holds the ball more and plays far more simpler game, which Messi clearly does not. The way he plays is definitely as a Trequartista.

As for Sacchi's Milan, I remember how that was the first team that I saw dominate the game. I will admit that I was their fan, before 1990 when I pledged my allegiance to the mighty Catalan giants, because Hristo Stoitckov went to play there (I'm bulgarian living in US).

I agree with you on Zidance being an advanced playmaker, but for numerous times at Chelsea Zola played as a simple deep-lying forward, definitely above the AMC position - is it easy to label him as a trequartista? I see him as more of a deep-lying forward for when he was at Chelsea than a trequartista, Totti is the definition of a trequartista - but Messi isn't like Totti.

I'm not quite sure why the false nine has to have limited creativity, limited dribbling or even limited movement - some definite false nines include Robin Van Persie or Dennis Bergkamp for Arsenal - the more recent player, RvP, constantly moves into channels, uses brilliant movement and I believe roams around the pitch, quickly dispatching the ball, not holding on to it for too long - at times his passing is also expansive - and he is a concrete false nine in my view, how can Messi be seen as the same type of player as Totti when he does the same job as RvP?

Messi's passing is rarely expansive (more than 40/50 metres), often takes on players (which Totti, Gourcuff and Zola, for example, didn't really do) and he runs with the ball often - is this not the definition of a striker? I don't think he's a trequartista - he is at times Barcelona's furthest player, yet he always drifts to the wing, makes simple passes to Alves or Xavi and constantly drifts around just like RvP, I rarely see Messi hit through-balls and at times he plays on the shoulder of the last defender waiting for a through ball - just what a false nine does. RvP doesn't have any defensive responsibilities, just like a usual "9" striker - it is not the trequartista that solely has little defensive responsibility.

I've seen Totti on some occasions play an ineffective game due to a double-pivot (essentially destroys, like Dunga when he played) - he is unable to get through them and it is hard to pass through 2 players who are constantly facing you, I rarely ever see Messi have trouble with a double or a single pivot - because at times he's above them, surely this is more of a forward role? He also plays in the wing which requires a lot of pace; yet Totti rarely has done that in his career, he drifts vertically where as Messi does horizontally + vertically. I mean Messi and Totti, the same type of player? I really don't see it.

[yonko1]

I agree with you on Zidance being an advanced playmaker, but for numerous times at Chelsea Zola played as a simple deep-lying forward, definitely above the AMC position - is it easy to label him as a trequartista? I see him as more of a deep-lying forward for when he was at Chelsea than a trequartista, Totti is the definition of a trequartista - but Messi isn't like Totti.

I'm not quite sure why the false nine has to have limited creativity, limited dribbling or even limited movement - some definite false nines include Robin Van Persie or Dennis Bergkamp for Arsenal - the more recent player, RvP, constantly moves into channels, uses brilliant movement and I believe roams around the pitch, quickly dispatching the ball, not holding on to it for too long - at times his passing is also expansive - and he is a concrete false nine in my view, how can Messi be seen as the same type of player as Totti when he does the same job as RvP?

Messi's passing is rarely expansive (more than 40/50 metres), often takes on players (which Totti, Gourcuff and Zola, for example, didn't really do) and he runs with the ball often - is this not the definition of a striker? I don't think he's a trequartista - he is at times Barcelona's furthest player, yet he always drifts to the wing, makes simple passes to Alves or Xavi and constantly drifts around just like RvP, I rarely see Messi hit through-balls and at times he plays on the shoulder of the last defender waiting for a through ball - just what a false nine does. RvP doesn't have any defensive responsibilities, just like a usual "9" striker - it is not the trequartista that solely has little defensive responsibility.

I've seen Totti on some occasions play an ineffective game due to a double-pivot (essentially destroys, like Dunga when he played) - he is unable to get through them and it is hard to pass through 2 players who are constantly facing you, I rarely ever see Messi have trouble with a double or a single pivot - because at times he's above them, surely this is more of a forward role? He also plays in the wing which requires a lot of pace; yet Totti rarely has done that in his career, he drifts vertically where as Messi does horizontally + vertically. I mean Messi and Totti, the same type of player? I really don't see it.

Totti also dribbled past defenders, but not with the same ability as Messi, because Leo is better at that skill. But if you say you haven't seen Messi play through balls that much you obviously haven't seen Barca recently.

I will admit that I'm not too familiar with the definition of the False 9 role, but I'm starting to suspect that is the English term for the Trequartista. Maybe we ought to invent a new term for the role Messi plays for Barca. He seems to do it all playing as a striker - scores goals (24 so far), makes assists (12 so far), dribbles past defenders, drifts wide, drops deep, plays short simple passes with Xavi and Iniesta, and plays through balls to Pedro and Villa. He also pressures less than anyone else, unlike before, and has complete freedom in offense to express himself. I don't know, but that to me is a Trequatista, unless we invent a new term. Or maybe his role is a hybrid between Trequartista, False 9 and Complete Forward?

I never said Totti and Messi are the same type of players though. We are only discussing roles on the field.

[higgins]

This passage on Baggio from one of Gab Marcotti's books would seem to sum it up pretty well Higgins:

I don't know about anyone else but Baggio was simply my favourite footballer of all time when he was playing. An utter genius, he was the man who made me fall in love with the whole idea of the trequartista.

During World Cup '94, I was an Italy fan just because of Baggio (England didn't qualify, of course). He was an utter genius and probably still is my favourite footballer of all time.

I saw him lots of times when he played for Juventus and I followed his career, of course I have to agree he was a great player, unfortunately he wasn't often a factor as a player so talented should have been.

Try to compare his palmares to Del Piero's one and you'll understand what I mean, he was an amazing player, probably not a winner.

[Sadiq]

On FM10, I use TQ next to an Advanced Forward. He was more effective in the league because most of the teams play 4-4-2 so there is space for him to drop into. But in Europe, more teams played with a DM so he couldn't find space and didn't impact the games.

[Arianyr]

I used that in FM 2010 in a 4-4-2 with Erding ( a player who doesn't fit well with this setting ) but in game it was beautiful. Erding (with Move into channels) was always dangerous.

Imagine a 4-4-2 with Tevez or Cassano ( the two best player in the game for this role ) in TQ...

I would personally say Kaka > Cassano as a trequartista

[crouchaldinho]

That is correct, except that Baresi played on the left-hand side of the two central defenders;) That was the starting XI for the final, but in all matches, Roberto Baggio was deployed as Trequartista.

Yonko, do you happen to know the basic roles in FM terms of that Italy 1994 team? Care to take a stab at the team instructions and player roles in 'Tactics Creator talk'?

I loved that team but I was too young to appreciate the tactical detail of a football match back then.

[crouchaldinho]

Totti also dribbled past defenders, but not with the same ability as Messi, because Leo is better at that skill. But if you say you haven't seen Messi play through balls that much you obviously haven't seen Barca recently.

I will admit that I'm not too familiar with the definition of the False 9 role, but I'm starting to suspect that is the English term for the Trequartista. Maybe we ought to invent a new term for the role Messi plays for Barca. He seems to do it all playing as a striker - scores goals (24 so far), makes assists (12 so far), dribbles past defenders, drifts wide, drops deep, plays short simple passes with Xavi and Iniesta, and plays through balls to Pedro and Villa. He also pressures less than anyone else, unlike before, and has complete freedom in offense to express himself. I don't know, but that to me is a Trequatista, unless we invent a new term. Or maybe his role is a hybrid between Trequartista, False 9 and Complete Forward?

I never said Totti and Messi are the same type of players though. We are only discussing roles on the field.

Surely Messi could be considered a trequartista. Isn't that the exact role he played for Argentina at the World Cup?In the hole in a 4-3-1-2 formation. The classic Argentinian enganche.

[higgins]

Italian national team (USA 94)

1- Pagliuca - GK-

2- Benarrivo - Attacking right fullback -

3- Mussi/Maldini - attacking left fullback - (Mussi played there when Sacchi had to move Maldini in the middle after Baresi injury)

4- Franco Baresi - dc cover ( or libero, cause Baresi was the classic libero, but in FM terms more probably a Dc with covering duties.)

5- Costacurta - Dc stopper

6- Albertini - Mc deep lying playmaker

7- Roberto Donadoni, flamboyant attacking left winger

8- Dino Baggio, powerful box to box midfielder

9- Casiraghi (Target man in a supporting role) or Massaro (target man more attacking, ball to feet) or Signori (Advanced forward, attacking)

10- Roby Baggio, more difficult, I'd say Deep lying forward, attacking or trequartista (in a forward role)

11- Nicolino Berti, a hard working defensive right winger, to cover Maldini or Mussi runs.

[yonko1]

Yonko, do you happen to know the basic roles in FM terms of that Italy 1994 team? Care to take a stab at the team instructions and player roles in 'Tactics Creator talk'?

I loved that team but I was too young to appreciate the tactical detail of a football match back then.

Sure, no problem.

Formation: classic 4-4-2

Philosophy: Rigid

Strategy: Control

Passing: Shorter/default

CD: press more

Tackling: default (though some will say "hard":D)

Creative Freedom: less

Marking: Zonal

Roaming: less

GK - Pagliuca - goalkeeper,defend

DR - Tassotti/Benarrivo/Mussi - fullback, attack (support duty for Tassotti, but he played only in one or two games)

DL - Maldini/Benarrivo - fullback, attack

DRC - Costacurta/Apolloni - limited defender, defend (not stopper)

DCL - Baresi/Maldini - central defender, cover

MCR - D.Baggio - Ball-winning midfielder, support

MCL - Albertini - deep-lying playmaker, support

MR - Donadonni - wide midfielder, attack (swapping with ML)

ML - Berti - wide midfielder, attack (swapping with MR)

STRC - Massaro=poacher, Cassiraghi=advanced forward, Signori=complete forward, attack

STLC - R.Baggio - trequartista

I'm somewhat unsure about Donadonni's and Berti's roles, as I've never used classic 4-4-2 formation in FM, especially since the introduction of the TC. So I'm not too familiar with the choices for ML and MR in the game. I remember that Donadonni had more Creative Freedom and movement freedom, while Berti was more limited. In one or two occasions Sacchi used Signori on the left instead of Nicola Berti, as an Inside Forward on attack duty and with moves into channels.

I have to admit that by you asking me to do this, you have sparked my interest into trying this in FM for real. I will have to think about a team to use and try to make this work in FM. I think it would have to be with a team from Italy, but who I have no idea.

Surely Messi could be considered a trequartista. Isn't that the exact role he played for Argentina at the World Cup?In the hole in a 4-3-1-2 formation. The classic Argentinian enganche.

That's what I've been saying too. Messi plays a very interesting role for Barca from the STC position. The only way I can describe it is as "Trequartista". For Argentina he played it from an AMC position, which made him play even deeper.

Italian national team (USA 94)

1- Pagliuca - GK-

2- Benarrivo - Attacking right fullback -

3- Mussi/Maldini - attacking left fullback - (Mussi played there when Sacchi had to move Maldini in the middle after Baresi injury)

4- Franco Baresi - dc cover ( or libero, cause Baresi was the classic libero, but in FM terms more probably a Dc with covering duties.)

5- Costacurta - Dc stopper

6- Albertini - Mc deep lying playmaker

7- Roberto Donadoni, flamboyant attacking left winger

8- Dino Baggio, powerful box to box midfielder

9- Casiraghi (Target man in a supporting role) or Massaro (target man more attacking, ball to feet) or Signori (Advanced forward, attacking)

10- Roby Baggio, more difficult, I'd say Deep lying forward, attacking or trequartista (in a forward role)

11- Nicolino Berti, a hard working defensive right winger, to cover Maldini or Mussi runs.

Close but not quite right. Mussi was a right fullback, Benarivo played on either side - right, when Maldini was left, and on the left, when Maldini was in the center instead of Baresi. Costacurta was not a stopper, just a regular limited defender. Dino Baggio was more limited than a Box to Box midfielder. And the roles for the three different forwards are all wrong - see above.

[higgins]

S

Close but not quite right. Mussi was a right fullback, Benarivo played on either side - right, when Maldini was left, and on the left, when Maldini was in the center instead of Baresi. Costacurta was not a stopper, just a regular limited defender. Dino Baggio was more limited than a Box to Box midfielder. And the roles for the three different forwards are all wrong - see above.

Uhmm... it's true, Benarrivo played on the left when Maldini played in the middle and Mussi was used on the right, but you're wrong about lots of things, Costacurta played his whole career as a stopper beside Franco Baresi, in the national team too, Casiraghi was a striker with a great physical power, a natural target man, he hadn't the required flair to be an advanced forward.

Massaro was a classic retreating forward, always ready to drop back and help his team-mates in midfield, for sure not a poacher (scored 90 goals in 450 matches in his whole career, not so much for a poacher I think)

Signori a complete forward?

This really made me laugh......he was 1.71 cm and his weight was 68 Kg, he never hit a ball with his head in his whole career!!

Try it again Yonko.

[phnompenhandy]

He basically has to be a quality player at the level you are playing at Phnompenhandy, in my opinion. That's my general rule when using playmakers. If they are going to be the focal point of my team, they have to be the outstanding talent in my side.

I've used a TQ at Serie C1 level to extremely good effect. This was at the AM position though. I found a very talented player who was rated as good at Serie B level! He had all the right attributes in the right places and tore up the division!

Hmm, having read the article on TQ in The Away Stand (can't find the link now), I reckon a TQ MUST have high attributes in key areas in an absolute, not relative sense. For example, regardless of the quality of the opposition, if his OTB is poor, he simply won't be in the right place to do his job. So I don't see any of my non-league players having the right attributes to play that role.

[yonko1]

Uhmm... it's true, Benarrivo played on the left when Maldini played in the middle and Mussi was used on the right, but you're wrong about lots of things, Costacurta played his whole career as a stopper beside Franco Baresi, in the national team too, Casiraghi was a striker with a great physical power, a natural target man, he hadn't the required flair to be an advanced forward.

Massaro was a classic retreating forward, always ready to drop back and help his team-mates in midfield, for sure not a poacher (scored 90 goals in 450 matches in his whole career, not so much for a poacher I think)

Signori a complete forward?

This really made me laugh......he was 1.71 cm and his weight was 68 Kg, he never hit a ball with his head in his whole career!!

Try it again Yonko.

These are the roles these players played in WC'94 for Sacchi IMO. I'm sure whoever was playing along side Baggio in attack was in more advanced positions than him looking to stretch the defense. Costacurta's role was definitely not a stopper because that will put him ahead of the defensive line. Sacchi didn't use that as his defensive strategy, he only had Baresi behind the D-line. As for Signori, I don't remember him actually playing as a Forward in this WC. He was more of a left winger, when Italy needed a boost in attack - vs Norway (2nd group game) and vs. Spain (quarter-finals). Massaro, by 1994, was playing the Poacher role even for Cappelo's Milan. That transition was necessary after Van Basten went out with his latest injury that eventually ended his career. His partner at Milan then was Dejan Savicevic (remember him?) who also played as Trequartista. Massaro scored two goals vs Barca in the 4-0 win that year in the CL final.

right back at you!

[higgins]

These are the roles these players played in WC'94 for Sacchi IMO. I'm sure whoever was playing along side Baggio in attack was in more advanced positions than him looking to stretch the defense. Costacurta's role was definitely not a stopper because that will put him ahead of the defensive line. Sacchi didn't use that as his defensive strategy, he only had Baresi behind the D-line. As for Signori, I don't remember him actually playing as a Forward in this WC. He was more of a left winger, when Italy needed a boost in attack - vs Norway (2nd group game) and vs. Spain (quarter-finals). Massaro, by 1994, was playing the Poacher role even for Cappelo's Milan. That transition was necessary after Van Basten went out with his latest injury that eventually ended his career. His partner at Milan then was Dejan Savicevic (remember him?) who also played as Trequartista. Massaro scored two goals vs Barca in the 4-0 win that year in the CL final.

right back at you!

Not too much to add mate, the defensive combo was Costacurta stopper and Baresi in a more covering role, but I admit that in Fm terms is not a huge difference, just few clicks, Signori, if I remember well played only one match as a forward in that world cup, then he played as a sub on the wing, but when he played upfront he never played as a complete forward (as you said before adding that he didn't play as a forward in that World Cup :confused:) ,for the obvious reasons I told you before.

Massaro never played as a poacher, he had not the right skills for that role, during the season you talked about (1993-94) Marco Simone and JP Papin were the poachers not Massaro that was the club's leading scorer that year but played deeper than his attacking partner.

Savicevic, for example, wasn't a regular that season, Papin and Simone played more than him, maybe you only watched the Champions League final that year.....

[niton]

Totti also dribbled past defenders, but not with the same ability as Messi, because Leo is better at that skill. But if you say you haven't seen Messi play through balls that much you obviously haven't seen Barca recently.

I will admit that I'm not too familiar with the definition of the False 9 role, but I'm starting to suspect that is the English term for the Trequartista. Maybe we ought to invent a new term for the role Messi plays for Barca. He seems to do it all playing as a striker - scores goals (24 so far), makes assists (12 so far), dribbles past defenders, drifts wide, drops deep, plays short simple passes with Xavi and Iniesta, and plays through balls to Pedro and Villa. He also pressures less than anyone else, unlike before, and has complete freedom in offense to express himself. I don't know, but that to me is a Trequatista, unless we invent a new term. Or maybe his role is a hybrid between Trequartista, False 9 and Complete Forward?

I never said Totti and Messi are the same type of players though. We are only discussing roles on the field.

I've watched every Barcelona game for the last 4/5 years, bar missing one or two, but that isn't a statement that is designed to make my opinion more important or more believable - he does play a lot of "key" passes which can be interpreted as through-balls and yes he does hit through-balls, but not to the extent of his team-mates Xavi or Iniesta. It is my opinion, but I believe Messi plays through-balls mainly to his two fellow forwards, and he hits simple passes to the midfielders or to Alves.

The false-9 role may very well be the English term for Trequartista - but I don't think I can say that you are wrong with your belief that Messi is a trequartista, just like I don't think I'm wrong when I say he is a false-nine.

There is one thing that I believe that the false nine has that could be up for discussion into a comparison against a Trequartista (I should really use the word enganche, it is the same thing and so much easier to type out) - the false 9 player can be your usual "fox in the box" or the English-style "hold up ball" for numerous games, which are not hard to define as strikers as there are so many of them, the player that "seems" to have a defined role for about 90% of his matches, but the ideology to not actually always do these things and lie to the opposing team as to what your role is, to have a role that actually promotes following no basic football tactic rules; to not playing between the opposing teams midfield and defence for every-game, to focus on cutting in one match and crossing in another, to play one game as a wide player and then the other as the focal point of attack, to play an expansive passing game in one match and a simple one in another - this can be seen as creativity, decision-making, etc, based on situations, but what cannot be attributed to that is the thought-process players and managers have before the game - the role they are starting with is false and they are deceiving the other team, making it more of a "match" scenario and more of a pattern. It is essentially having no-role on a long-term basis; more so promoting the idea of creative freedom on a pitch. Can the same be said about a trequartista?

Pure false nines, just like pure trequartista are very rare to find, and if so, it is just an opinion, but I believe Messi is one.

EDIT: In relation to Football-Manager, we ask ourselves the question how can this actually be interpreted into the game? It just cannot.

[crouchaldinho]

Awesome discussion yonko1 and higgins.

It has also sparked my interest to get something like that system working in FM, especially built around a Roberto Baggio type of player.

[John_Cro]

Awesome discussion yonko1 and higgins.

It has also sparked my interest to get something like that system working in FM, especially built around a Roberto Baggio type of player.

Yes, that would be very good idea. In fact, I thought about Messi as Trequartista in AMC position with Barca (FM 11), and Villa ahead of him as advanced forward or poacher. MAybe that would be an excellent partnership and perhaps someone will find a little time to create it.

[pauso]

about Italy at WC '94, i think Sacchi tried to play Signori as a left winger, but Signori wasn't happy to play that role and i remember that he refused to play the final, replaced by Berti. Signori in my view was an advanced forward. he had a great impact in serie A at Foggia managed by Z. Zeman (crouchaldinho, if you haven't seen that foggia playing i suggest you to search video or articles of that team) playing as a advanced forward in a flat 4-3-3, and then follow his manager at Lazio, were he played in a "tridente" alongside a more complete forward like Alain Boksic and a more defensive forward, Roberto Rambaudi.

in the end of his career, when he lost a bit of acceleration and stamina, he become more a poacher (when he was at bologna).

[higgins]

about Italy at WC '94, i think Sacchi tried to play Signori as a left winger, but Signori wasn't happy to play that role and i remember that i refused to play the final, replaced by Berti. Signori in my view was an advanced forward. he had a great impact in serie A at Foggia managed by Z. Zeman (crouchaldinho, if you haven't seen that foggia playing i suggest you to search video or articles of that team) playing as a advanced forward in a flat 4-3-3, and then follow his manager at lazio, were he played in a "tridente" alongside a more complete forward like Alain Boksic and a more defensive forward, Roberto Rambaudi.

in the end of his career, when he lost a bit of acceleration and stamina, he become more a poacher (when he was at bologna).

What this guy said.

In that Foggia the ball was moved quickly on the deck with short passes starting from the back four line, really fun to watch, a team built with no money.