(disproved on page 2) Finaly proved it, the game engine is bogus

[marx]

ok, 1.09.2007 table:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9756/arsenal3rk2.jpg

I changed reputation and wait on holidays till 12.08.2008

[Lucho_]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James1983:

Wow... Looking at this objectively certainly is worrying. While reputation does influence results IRL to some extent, marx's latest experiment seems to imply that reputation is the sole factor in deciding results in game (providing the reputation was the ONLY thing he changed - having more than one manipulated variable will produce irrelevant results). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the lower reputation made Arsenal sell all of its squad, and that caused the team to perform so poorly. It was probably the bad players, and not the poor reputation that caused the results.

Again, all of this has been done in the Challenges forum.

[Spagbol]

Very worrying.

I'm tempted to run a holiday game after placing ten non-league clubs in the prem with 9000 rep, then minimise the ten remaining prem clubs to 100 rep.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Greg Andrade:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:

You guys want more proof the game engine is broken?

1. Open the editor

2. Take a country like Andorra and give them players with CA and PA of 200.

3. Start the game and when it starts the players CA would have dropped to 170 or something but that doesn't matter.

4. Go on holiday for a year or 2.

5. Look at all of Andorra's results from that time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you remove the players' actual attributes in all categories? If you change PA and CA, but you do not remove the individual attribute figures, then I think the game will use the attribute figures and compute a correct CA based on those. So changing the CA would be a waste of time, and that may be why you saw some of the results you did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not remove the players CA I removed the players them selfs

[arfaern]

Did a further test. Just to prove the result was not a fluke I started a new game with the same database, and got more or less the same results, Chelsea finished now 13 in the premiership, and made it to the quarter finals of the Championship League. Up two places in the Premiership and one round less in the Championship League, like I said more or less the same.

But now comes the surprise. Loaded up the same database (same players etc.) and changed the reputation of Chelsea from 9200 to 1000.

The results now you ask?

Chelsea finished dead last in the Premiership, and lost all the games in the Championship League.

So lets review, shall we?

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=9200:

15/13. Premiership

Semi/quarter final Championship League

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=1000:

20 Premiership

Lost all games in the Championship League (0/6, goal difference 0/13)

Nice isn't it?

[marx]

ok here are results till 1.1.2008.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1893/arsenal4am5.jpg

After this date Arsenal has sold all their key players sa next matches doesn't say anything.

As we see Arsenal is seriously underperforming

How long lasts transfer window in England?

In next test I will try to manage Arsenal in transfer window to force them not to sell any players

[Lucho_]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:

Did a further test. Just to prove the result was not a fluke I started a new game with the same database, and got more or less the same results, Chelsea finished now 13 in the premiership, and made it to the quarter finals of the Championship League. Up two places in the Premiership and one round less in the Championship League, like I said more or less the same.

But now comes the surprise. Loaded up the same database (same players etc.) and changed the reputation of Chelsea from 9200 to 1000.

The results now you ask?

Chelsea finished dead last in the Premiership, and lost all the games in the Championship League.

So lets review, shall we?

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=9200:

15/13. Premiership

Semi/quarter final Championship League

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=1000:

20 Premiership

Lost all games in the Championship League (0/6, goal difference 0/13)

Nice isn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have the savegames and the time, please calculate the averaga CA of the teams Chelsea regularly fielded in both games and post them here. Would be interesting to see if they are different or similar.

Thanks!

[marx]

ok third test:

transfer switched off, half a season played

Arsenal is 11, quite bad but not disaster - so it doesn't prove anything yet

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8756/arsenal5rz9.jpg

[Apocalypse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:

Did a further test. Just to prove the result was not a fluke I started a new game with the same database, and got more or less the same results, Chelsea finished now 13 in the premiership, and made it to the quarter finals of the Championship League. Up two places in the Premiership and one round less in the Championship League, like I said more or less the same.

But now comes the surprise. Loaded up the same database (same players etc.) and changed the reputation of Chelsea from 9200 to 1000.

The results now you ask?

Chelsea finished dead last in the Premiership, and lost all the games in the Championship League.

So lets review, shall we?

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=9200:

15/13. Premiership

Semi/quarter final Championship League

Chelsea with only their youth team and reputation=1000:

20 Premiership

Lost all games in the Championship League (0/6, goal difference 0/13)

Nice isn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

have you tried using the chelsea superstars with only a 1000 team reputation,would be interesting to see them results

[rich_barnes]

right i thought id try this the other way around, so iv made derbys reputation 9999 and gone on holiday, they dont have enough cash to alter the squad much so we shall see how it goes.

[Silver Foxx]

I can't wait to see a reply to this thread when the festive holidays are over. Sports Interactive - I feel you owe a reply to this interesting and comprehensive thread.

Let's hear what S.I.'s version on the above is, I look forward to this.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Apocalypse:

have you tried using the chelsea superstars with only a 1000 team reputation,would be interesting to see them results </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes i tried that, Chelsea ended up 4 in the premiership trailing by 15 points, knocked out at the first knock out round of the Championship League.

Not a bad result you might say, but normally (game wise) Chelsea takes the premiership by a 5-10 point margin, and makes it to the Championship League semis.

[marx]

still third test

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1298/arsenal6ks0.jpg

all january i was managing Arsenal myself, but on holiday. I managed to stop leaving most of key players, unfortunatelly some of them has signed contract before transfer windwos has opened.

Now i has left Arsenal and will wait till end of season

[jase19]

i'm no saying these arguments aren't valid

but i have got bath city to the championship with a rep of like 3500 and i'm near top half in february (sitting 11th).

granted it was a struggle and i usually snuck in on playoffs and was lucky to get good loan players, but thats just it... i think my loaners did more than my crappy rep ever did.

[James1983]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucho_:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James1983:

Wow... Looking at this objectively certainly is worrying. While reputation does influence results IRL to some extent, marx's latest experiment seems to imply that reputation is the sole factor in deciding results in game (providing the reputation was the ONLY thing he changed - having more than one manipulated variable will produce irrelevant results). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the lower reputation made Arsenal sell all of its squad, and that caused the team to perform so poorly. It was probably the bad players, and not the poor reputation that caused the results.

Again, all of this has been done in the Challenges forum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aha!Well that would seem obvious, strange that I didn't pick up on it. So reducing the reputation takes a realistic effect - why would the likes of Cesc Fabregas play for an unknown club?

[rich_barnes]

well so far with a reputation of 9999 derby have played 4 and lost 4,

chelsea with a rep of 1 have played 3 drawn 3 but i put that down to the fact that the players all want to leave.

[marx]

third test has ended:

Arsenal survive in Premiership, but ended at 17 place and only 4 points from relegation.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4353/arsenal7kg7.jpg

Here are transfers:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1654/arsenal8jg1.jpg

They lost a few important players but not so much as in previous tests (7M sold vs 40M) so their power should be enough to gain higher position.

[TGD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marx:

third test has ended:

Arsenal survive in Premiership, but ended at 17 place and only 4 points from relegation.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4353/arsenal7kg7.jpg

Here are transfers:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1654/arsenal8jg1.jpg

They lost a few important players but not so much as in previous tests (7M sold vs 40M) so their power should be enough to gain higher position. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

mate I can't agree with the test. I believe you have a few points but Arsenal losing Toure is like Chelsea losing Terry. No rosicky either and no replacements. Its obvious Arsenal will struggle.

[marx]

the've sold Thierry Henrie and doesn't struggle...

[RSCA4Ever]

Results calculated by reputation!!! This really disappoints me!

That is such an unrealistic approach to do, because injuries or lack of quality players won't matter at all then for big teams.

This should have been done completely different.

Why not simply add together all the PA's from the 11 starting players from both teams and calculate the games from there?

Also not perfect but at least way better then by reps.

Maybe game speed will be a little slower this way, but the way like it is now is cheating!!!

One question: What happens when you view Chelsea's matches? (if you would happen to have the time and willpower to do so)

You can run them at fastest speed to save time, but if then still they manage to produce a good season with crap players and high rep, then i am seriously disappointed.

[Miles Jacobson]

So, it's Xmas day. I should be spending the time with my family. Instead, I'm on here, looking at another "experiment" and demands for SI to answer in capital letters.

The original poster has run an experiment, but I don't know what parameters have been used. So I've restarted the same experiment and will report back on findins whilst they come in.

What I have done, for the record, is thus.

I've moved all Chelsea players with current ability of more than 85 to Millwall, along with Jose Mourinho (reasons for this below) and installed Avram Grant as Chelsea manager.

I have given Chelsea -£50m, to stop them being able to buy in lots of players. This negative amount gets wiped out pretty much straight away by season ticket revenues, but they still have a tiny transfer budget.

I have given Millwall £30m, so that they are able to pay their wage bill for a while.

I have turned up the full match engine for all matches, apart from reserves, U18's and internationals. This is the only "true" test, on whether this has an affect on the game that you are playing, as it's how the league would be if you were playing in it.

To ensure that it is working in the same way as the game would be for a club that you were managing, I've taken over as Derby manager (in the Prem) and Cheltenham (in League One) and gone on holiday with both teams.

I've moved Mourinho to Millwall because he is used to managing the kinds of players now at Millwall. As we've all seen over many years of football, many managers can't handle "top" players, so those players don't play to their full potential.

I will report back on the progress of this test every couple of months of ingame time. I would appreciate if others can wait until the experiment is finalised before commenting further on this.

As it's taken me a while to type this up, the first results will follow soon. I'll also learn how to use imageshack to put some screenshots up

Happy Mince Pie day to all, even those who have stopped me from spending time with my family on this one day of the year when work really should come second.

[Miles Jacobson]

Please note that I have NOT touched the reputation (which someone just asked me about on MSN) for either side.

As of 12th September

Chelsea - 6 matches played. 0 wins. 0 goals scored. 31 goals against. This includes a 9-0 loss against Man Utd in the community shield, and a 11-0 loss against Arsenal.

Milwall - 7 matches played. 7 wins. 36 goals scored. 0 goals against. This includes an 8-0 win against Oldham, 7-0 against Bournemouth, and 6-0 against Leeds.

Screenshots are uploading as I type. Will post those links, along with the next set of results, once I get to Xmas in the game.

Rcjuk - why the sad face?

[RSCA4Ever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

So, it's Xmas day. I should be spending the time with my family. Instead, I'm on here, looking at another "experiment" and demands for SI to answer in capital letters.

The original poster has run an experiment, but I don't know what parameters have been used. So I've restarted the same experiment and will report back on findins whilst they come in.

What I have done, for the record, is thus.

I've moved all Chelsea players with current ability of more than 85 to Millwall, along with Jose Mourinho (reasons for this below) and installed Avram Grant as Chelsea manager.

I have given Chelsea -£50m, to stop them being able to buy in lots of players. This negative amount gets wiped out pretty much straight away by season ticket revenues, but they still have a tiny transfer budget.

I have given Millwall £30m, so that they are able to pay their wage bill for a while.

I have turned up the full match engine for all matches, apart from reserves, U18's and internationals. This is the only "true" test, on whether this has an affect on the game that you are playing, as it's how the league would be if you were playing in it.

To ensure that it is working in the same way as the game would be for a club that you were managing, I've taken over as Derby manager (in the Prem) and Cheltenham (in League One) and gone on holiday with both teams.

I've moved Mourinho to Millwall because he is used to managing the kinds of players now at Millwall. As we've all seen over many years of football, many managers can't handle "top" players, so those players don't play to their full potential.

I will report back on the progress of this test every couple of months of ingame time. I would appreciate if others can wait until the experiment is finalised before commenting further on this.

As it's taken me a while to type this up, the first results will follow soon. I'll also learn how to use imageshack to put some screenshots up

Happy Mince Pie day to all, even those who have stopped me from spending time with my family on this one day of the year when work really should come second. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG Miles, i never expected anyone from SI on this day actually testing this!

You workaholic!

Merry Christmas to you to!

[Ste123]

*waits for the results*

Miles go get a drink and spend time with ur family.

Merry Christmas

[Kristian]

Miles, though their are serious problems with the FM08 match engine (IMO, and stated many times!) I don't think anyone could seriously expect or wish that you would be working on this today.

My advice (for what little it's worth): Switch PC off, go see family, eat turkey sandwiches and then when you're back at work get the team back doing what you do best rather than reacting to slightly ridiculous "proofs" on the forum.

All the best for 2008 to yourself, your family and all at SI

[jase19]

Miles, put the keyboard down and go spend time with your family. this thread can wait until tomorrow, surely.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

Please note that I have NOT touched the reputation (which someone just asked me about on MSN) for either side.

As of 12th September

Chelsea - 6 matches played. 0 wins. 0 goals scored. 31 goals against. This includes a 9-0 loss against Man Utd in the community shield, and a 11-0 loss against Arsenal.

Milwall - 7 matches played. 7 wins. 36 goals scored. 0 goals against. This includes an 8-0 win against Oldham, 7-0 against Bournemouth, and 6-0 against Leeds.

Screenshots are uploading as I type. Will post those links, along with the next set of results, once I get to Xmas in the game.

Rcjuk - why the sad face? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am more than glad to provide the database and the save game for all that I have done with the editor.

[Guest arrogantio]

Now that's dedication from Miles...

Miles' initial results are more consistent with the results of other AI experiments than the original posters'.

Anyway, reputation should affect the outcome of a match - it has a big impact on tactical decisions. Essentially the original experiment, even if it was run with the correct match engine detail settings, is based around unrealistic parameters: opposition managers and players still think that a decimated Chelsea squad is world class and a Millwall Allstars XI is average. If everyone involved persisted with this blinkered view all the way through the season, then I think it's quite plausible that Millwall would win promotion without ever looking a class above the rest of the division and Chelsea's much-feared youths would scrape enough points together to survive relegation.

[Miles Jacobson]

First batch of screenshots as a slideshow

http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img...7/1198614584g90.smil

RSCA4Ever - yes, I am a workaholic. What makes it worse is that I'm meant to be having my first holiday in 4 years at the moment too...

Ste123 - I've left my family at my Sisters house, so am back to do this now...

Kristian - this test is nothing to do with the match engine.

Jase19 - to be honest, I don't think it can be left til tomorrow. The more things like this spring up, the more negativity is spread, and I can't leave it unanswered.

Afaern - not needed, but thanks for the offer. I think I know where you've gone "wrong" with your experiment as a user would play the game, and that is that your detail settings are low to non-existant for inactive leagues, and you haven't added a manager in. Therefore all of your matches will have bypassed the match engine, only using the quick match engine which is used for inactive leagues. What you may have done with your experiment is show up some flaws in the quick match engine, but this would have no affect whatsoever on someone playing the game, as all of the matches in the division that they are playing in, and all the competitions that the team they are managing are playing in, would be using the full match engine to play out the matches.

It certainly hasn't proved anything with regards on why you seem to be finding the game hard to play, as you aren't playing the game when you run your test! If my test results are different to yours (which they certainly seem to be at the moment), it will show that it is your team or tactics that is the problem for why you are finding it hard though!

[arfaern]

So basically you are saying, that manager relay on club reputation, rather the players quality to decide how to play against them?

Does not that seam wrong to you?

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

First batch of screenshots as a slideshow

http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img...7/1198614584g90.smil

RSCA4Ever - yes, I am a workaholic. What makes it worse is that I'm meant to be having my first holiday in 4 years at the moment too...

Ste123 - I've left my family at my Sisters house, so am back to do this now...

Kristian - this test is nothing to do with the match engine.

Jase19 - to be honest, I don't think it can be left til tomorrow. The more things like this spring up, the more negativity is spread, and I can't leave it unanswered.

Afaern - not needed, but thanks for the offer. I think I know where you've gone "wrong" with your experiment as a user would play the game, and that is that your detail settings are low to non-existant for inactive leagues, and you haven't added a manager in. Therefore all of your matches will have bypassed the match engine, only using the quick match engine which is used for inactive leagues. What you may have done with your experiment is show up some flaws in the quick match engine, but this would have no affect whatsoever on someone playing the game, as all of the matches in the division that they are playing in, and all the competitions that the team they are managing are playing in, would be using the full match engine to play out the matches.

It certainly hasn't proved anything with regards on why you seem to be finding the game hard to play, as you aren't playing the game when you run your test! If my test results are different to yours (which they certainly seem to be at the moment), it will show that it is your team or tactics that is the problem for why you are finding it hard though! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't find the game especially difficult, and with some effort any human player can beat the game (win against AI managers).

I never claimed that the mistake was in the match engine, just that there was a problem with the game engine aka the game its self somewhere.

[Miles Jacobson]

Arfaern - your test is flawed though if you've been playing it without full detail or managing a club in the league, as the league is inactive. So for someone playing the game, it has no bearing on the human manager, or any competitions that the human manager is playing in.

So your quote of "Finally I can say it's not me, it's not my tactics, it the game" will, if my test carries on in the way it is, then it will disprove your conspiracy theory.

[Miles Jacobson]

It's Xmas Day 2007 in this bizarre experiment.

Millwall

21 matches played in the league.

20 wins.

1 draw (a 0-0 with Leyton Orient).

102 goals for

3 goals against

Drogba has 38 goals in 24 matches, and an average rating of 8.54

They lost to Spurs (away) in the League Cup 3rd round.

Chelsea

18 matches played in the league

0 wins

1 draw (0-0 against Portsmouth)

1 goal for

77 goals against

Knocked out of the league cup by Wolves

Champions League record - pld 6, lost 6, -27 goal difference

Screenshots are a coming. I'll then let it run to the end of the season.

[Miles Jacobson]

Screenshots for above

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chelseachelseafixtures2ah8.png

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=millwallmillwallfixtureur8.png

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=Coca-ColaLeague1LeagueTable-2.png

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=EnglishPremier...ionLeagueTable-2.png

[TGD]

lol Miles silences the critics. I never doubted fm

[marx]

in meantime i've repeated my test, but this time I've managed Arsenal personally and went to holiday. After lowering reputation at the end of the season Arsenal has finished second.

So for me it proves 3 things:

1)Reputation is important for background matches (being on holidays cause game engine to play "by reputation" all games with teams I'm not managing)

2)Reputation is not very important for matches when you manage team (even if you are in holiday mode). That's why holiday mode lasts much longer when i'm managing team vs when i'm not managing any team)

3)MJ i really workaholic

[RTHerringbone]

Have skimmed through the thread and Miles' recent posts. Surely he has proven that when the game is processing in "normal" detail - i.e. the level at which users play the game, that it is the ability of the players, rather than the reputation of the club, which drives the results? If so, lets all get back to Christmas Day and stop twatting about.

[Gundo]

If I understand it this is just ridiculous. arfaern you ticked non-full match engine or what ever it's called, what did you expect to happen? These basic settings are used to speed up the game, so the player/team swaps you made in the editor aren't going to be recognized or taken into account as such.

The basic settings are used to speed up the game, so you can't expect to see full outcomes and for the game to take all of your changes into account.

This is NO reliable experiment on such detail levels you set imo.

Miles Go get your glass of sherry and turkey sandwich that awaits you.

Merry Christmas All!

[Gundo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marx:

in meantime i've repeated my test, but this time I've managed Arsenal personally and went to holiday. After lowering reputation at the end of the season Arsenal has finished second.

So for me it proves 3 things:

1)Reputation is important for background matches (being on holidays cause game engine to play "by reputation" all games with teams I'm not managing)

2)Reputation is not very important for matches when you manage team (even if you are in holiday mode). That's why holiday mode lasts much longer when i'm managing team vs when i'm not managing any team)

3)MJ i really workaholic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nail and head.

Good work.

[ViG1980]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jase19:

i'm no saying these arguments aren't valid

but i have got bath city to the championship with a rep of like 3500 and i'm near top half in february (sitting 11th).

granted it was a struggle and i usually snuck in on playoffs and was lucky to get good loan players, but thats just it... i think my loaners did more than my crappy rep ever did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is different at this is a human managing. We are looking at CPU teams only...

[Miles Jacobson]

Marx - with point 1, if you are managing any team in the league that you are in (not just the team you are testing), or you have full match on, then you the full match engine is used.

RTHerringone - I agree But will carry on til the end of the season as the original poster did.

Gundo - the mince pies are about to go into the oven, and I have some nice vanilla cream to put on them. They should be ready just after the experiment finishes.

And Merry/Happy non denominational festive season to all, whatever festival you may be celebrating at this time of year, have just celebrated, or are just about to celebrate

[Miles Jacobson]

Vig2001 - You aren't. With experiments like this one, you are looking at CPU teams in inactive leagues and competitions, only, which has no bearing on people playing the game. The key word there is "playing", as that is what is meant to be done with computer games.

Any competition that isn't being played in (in other words, doesn't have a human manager in) is inactive, unless full match detail is turned on for that competition.

[RSCA4Ever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

First batch of screenshots as a slideshow

http://img176.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img...7/1198614584g90.smil

RSCA4Ever - yes, I am a workaholic. What makes it worse is that I'm meant to be having my first holiday in 4 years at the moment too...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please have a great vacation then, one with no internet connections and no phones!

Thanks for testing good to see it doesn't affect the league i play in, so i am very happy for that, because when i first saw this thread i felt a bit disappointed if games would had been decided by reps.

I can see now why you wanted to test this today.

In fact i can understand how it must come over sometimes reading negative posts.

Maybe we all expect perfect games that would be as close to reality as possible.

But we do forget one thing, not one computer game will ever be reality!

I don't have a negative view at all towards the game.

The AI was never this challenging as now imo, and also i do like the new features.

Even the strict board is more realistic then ever, unlike what others say!

In Belgium in the 90's we had a manager (Luca Peruzovic) sacked at mid season, while he was leading the table with 11 points with Anderlecht, because he didn't produce attacking football.

I'm a Anderlecht fan for 30 years now and i think ive seen about 25 different managers there during that time, even while we win titles on regular basis.

07 "maybe" had a better match engine on some parts but 08 certainly has some improvements as well.

Point is FM is still the king of management games!

Arfaern you almost gave me a heart attack today!

Just kidding, but i do got disappointed when i first saw your test.

BTW in above i speak about negative posts, with that i don't mean this one.

Merry Christmas all!

[arfaern]

Ok rerun the same thing with full match detail, and managers in both those leagues, and produced more or less same results as you did, Chelsea managed to get a few draws, Millwall draw also a few etc.

But as I can see from the posts here most of the users don't know what is or where to set the match detail level.

Since the match detail level will be full only in the competitions where you are managing a club, and set by default to none for all else.

So if you pick England, Italy, Spain and France as playable leagues, and manage ex. Man Utd. only English Premiership will be on Full detail by default, all else will be on none.

Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct?

[RTHerringbone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:

Ok rerun the same thing with full match detail, and managers in both those leagues, and produced more or less same results as you did, Chelsea managed to get a few draws, Millwall draw also a few etc.

But as I can see from the posts here most of the users don't know what is or where to set the match detail level.

Since the match detail level will be full only in the competitions where you are managing a club, and set by default to none for all else.

So if you pick England, Italy, Spain and France as playable leagues, and manage ex. Man Utd. only English Premiership will be on Full detail by default, all else will be on none.

Thus in Italy, Spain and France the champion will be one of the top teams despite them having somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league.

Is this correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because those teams will typically have the better players and so will be more likely to win. If you manage in Spain / Italy, you'll see that Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U are near the top of the English Premier League. That's not because they have "somewhat lesser players than other teams in the league", it's because they have the best players.

[arfaern]

That is a big if.

Because if you progress with game far enough into 2015+ seasons, those clubs will be full of young/new/purchased players which might not be at the top of their rank.

[RTHerringbone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arfaern:

That is a big if.

Because if you progress with game far enough into 2015+ seasons, those clubs will be full of young/new/purchased players which might not be at the top of their rank. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair point. On that basis, the experiment would need to continue for 10+ seasons on teams with unedited reputations to see how things pan out.

[arfaern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:

Vig2001 - You aren't. With experiments like this one, you are looking at CPU teams in inactive leagues and competitions, only, which has no bearing on people playing the game. The key word there is "playing", as that is what is meant to be done with computer games.

Any competition that isn't being played in (in other words, doesn't have a human manager in) is inactive, unless full match detail is turned on for that competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you are saying that if played in full match detail the game will use the match engine used to calculate human games, but if played with none detail the game will use some sort of a quick match engine?

Then that means that the quick match engine can return somewhat inaccurate results.

[Miles Jacobson]

arfraen - I don't know if that's correct, but your experiment would suggest that that could be the case if you were trying to break the game, rather than play it in the way it was intended.

As I've said above, it wouldn't affect any human manager playing the game, which is what the game is designed for (playing). So if you moved from England to Spain, then the league you moved to would become the active one by default.

As for saying that users don't know where that option is, it was a feature added some time ago, and should be detailed in the manual. It's listed under preferences.

Do you mind if I change the subject to add "(conspiracy theory disproved on page 2 of the thread)" please?

[arfaern]

No I don't mind simply because you have disapproved me.

I wasn't trying to break the game, the thing just came to mind to try and see what will happen.

I was not aware that selecting full/none detail on the league could have such an impact on the performance of the teams.

If you look at my original post (using none detail) and your result (using full details) you will see that the team performance is more than a mile apart.

This post was not started as a "conspiracy theory" post, rather just posting my surprise to the result provided by the game

I would like to apologize to the SI team, for making such a racket on Xmas.