Tactical Instructions: How They Work.

[SFraser]

This will be one of the shorter threads of mine, in terms of mind chewing text anyway, but hopefully no less revealing and ideally one of the most revealing.

This is a simple set of screenshots and a description of the tactical instructions used describing a rather simple goal. Nothing fancy, nothing brilliant, and my team is vastly superior to the opposition but it is a goal that comes about through such perfect and simple Tactical Instruction lines that I could not pass up the opportunity to describe it.

The Game

The match is an FA Cup sixth round tie between Manchester United and Peterborough United at Old Trafford. As manager of Manchester United the advantage is rediculously in my favour, but this thread is not to gloat or preen or even to question the size of my familly jewels at managing Manchester United, this thread is about showing a goal that absolutely and completely and so beautifully obviously flows from simple tactical instructions.

The teams line up as follows:

My plan here is simple:

I want my whole team to press high up the pitch.

I want my fullbacks to attack.

I want my Central Midfielders to play high up the pitch and pass and closedown and tackle but not make runs or move much.

I want my Wingers and AMC to play high, not miles ahead of the CM's. I dont want them to make runs from deep but I want them to feed the ball to Rooney.

I want Rooney to drop deep close to the AMC and make runs in behind the defense.

Tactical Instructions

To do all of this I do tweak the TC. I use the TC to find the right Mentality, ClosingDown, Creative Freedom, Passing, but the rest is up to me.

The idea is that when defending I will play a 4-2-3-1 but when attacking it will become a 4-2-4 or thereabouts. However it will be the middle that all my movement happens. Peterborough are playing a 4-4-2 after all. I should be able to destroy their defense with good movement.

The CM's have a high Mentality, High Creative Freedom TC role, in this example it is CM Attack. But I tweak all the other instructions so they have RWB Mixed and TTB Often and nothing else. No roaming no nothing. Stay in position and play throughballs.

The Wingers have a high Mentality, High Creative Freedom TC role, in this example it is Winger Attack. But again all they have is RWB Often and TTB Mixed. No roaming, no wideplay, no crossing, no RFD, no nothing. Their job is to play high without trying to be a striker, to play high and Run with the ball wherever they see fit and look for throughballs.

The AMC has a High Mentality to keep him in position with the rest of the team, in this example it is Attacking Midfielder Attack. He has High Creative Freedom. He also has Roaming because I want him to roam, Moves into Channels because I want him to attack between CB and FB, RFD Mixed because I want him to make attacking runs, and then RWB and TTB Mixed with everything else off. I want him to run and pass with the ball, move around heaps when he doesn't have the ball, but stay relatively high.

The Lone Striker has a LOWER Mentality, in this example Complete Forward Support. I want my FC to drop deep and start his attacks from a position close to the Wingers and AMC and then bomb forward and have heaps of players aiming decent passes into his path. He has NO ROAMING and NO WIDEPLAY because I want to keep him slap bang through the middle. None of this cunning diagonal or space exploiting movement for you son, you are not a playmaker today. He has RFD Mixed, RWB Mixed, Longshots Mixed, TTB Mixed because I want him to do stuff from the middle of the pitch. Ideally run and score but sticking a 30 yarder into the top corner or playing Berbatov through on goal is not something i am going to complain about.

So basically what I want is a 4-2-3-1 in defense that is a 4-2-4 in attack or close enough. I want my Wingers to play as Wingers and not Strikers, ideally operating as really advanced playmakers. I want my Striker dropping deep then making defense shattering runs through the middle. And I want my AMC to roam around very close to this line but getting into all the spaces and sometimes making a good run, but ideally playing as Playmaker.

That's the plan....

The Goal

Just to clarify things I will post the description AFTER the screenshot.

This is immediately after a corner I won. The corner came to nothing and Peterborough played the ball downfield. My Leftback won the ball, played it back to the goalkeeper as everyone sprinted back to position, and then the goalkeeper played the ball to Jonny Evans.

The shape of my team here is exactly how I instructed it to be. There is distance between defense and Central Midfielders but bugger all distance between CM and Forwards. My Wingers are playing on the wings, my Striker has dropped deep but stayed in the middle, and my AMC Berbatov the number 9 is roaming around close to the whole shebang, getting into the Channels.

If this wasn't such a great example of the Tactical Instructions at work I wouldn't bother posting it. It's absolutely spot on though and a great example.

Evans plays the ball to Berbatov, pretty difficult not to under those conditions in the game. Berbatov then turns and runs at the defense, as instructed.

Look at the positioning of the Manchester United attack and Peterborough defense. The Manchester United attack is pretty much all in a line and the wingers are staying wide and not making any "Hollywood" style runs that might distract the playmaker. The Peterborough defense has moved their Number 7 over to mark Rooney.

Berbatov dribbles with the ball into midfield from a free channel position, as instructed. Wayne Rooney escapes his marker and starts his attacking run from deep, as instructed. The Wingers stay high but refuse to make attacking runs, as instructed.

It's all pretty obvious from here on in, but the whole point of this thread is that everything here is absolutely as instructed. It's all exactly as I set it up to do. Nothing here is anything other than by complete design. Although to be completely honest I did not know exactly how Peterborough would line up, so their defense playing into my hands certainly helps.

Continued next post:

[SFraser]

Continued:

Berbatov plays a throughball to Rooney.

This is the first screenshot that Rooney is obviously ahead of the Wingers. He has made a brutal attacking run behind number 20 and away from number 7. Rooney is ofcourse good at Off-The-Ball runs. The Peterborough number 6 is playing Rooney onside but it is pretty obvious that Rooney has long since beaten all his markers and shattered the Centre of Defense of Peterborough.

What is going on here is Berbatov and his particular, individual decision to feed a throughball to Rooney. Berbatov chooses this moment to release the ball and this really is an important point to make to all players of FM. Berbatov does not release the ball when Rooney was running across the number 20, not after this point when he would probably be off-side, but this precise moment just before Rooney is off-side.

If you regularly tend to look at football at FM in this level of detail there is a lot you can read into the behaviour of Berbatov, none of which is provable. But ultimately this position is an easier pass for Berbatov when he could easilly have played Rooney through a few second earlier as Rooney attacked behind number 20. It is arguably an easier finish for Rooney but that is very arguable. It is also the very last millisecond before Rooney is off-side meaning that the defense is split at the height of threat against it.

Perhaps we could discuss these issues later in the thread, but first there is a point to be made.

Rooney receives the ball, dribbles and scores.

In total fairness the Peterborough number 5 DID get goalside and DID give Rooney a question, but Rooney dribbled past him and lashed the ball into the net. So still not the cleanest break ever seen in football.

Conclusion

I know there will be critics about player and team quality but I know the team is rediculously superior. The whole point is that every inch of this move was instructed, and it was instructed with a purpose to do certain things with every player. There was no "hit and hope" with players and roles, Rooney was designed to drop deep and then make defense splitting runs THROUGH THE MIDDLE.

Dont let the huge disparity in player quality blind you to the example. Football Manager Tactics DO what you tell them, if only you know how to instruct players, and hopefully this thread gives some real clues as to how to do things.

Hopefully this thread shows just how simple instructions can be to make things happen, helps people understand a bit more about how Tactical Instructions work, but most importantly helps people understand that tactics is a team game. That all the simplicity in the world is meaningless unless the simple instructions combine to produce a simple team plan.

Whatever you get from this thread I hope you get something.

[ObaMartins09]

I love posts with images. \o/

Gonna give it a good read now, but it looks superb once again SFraser. If only I could find a game on FM that I could stick to and put all these 'articles' to the test.

[isuckatfm]

Can you pop up a screenshot of

- the absolute beginning with the keeper in possession instantly after the corner, followed by the moment just as the keeper strikes the pass to Evans

- what happened between screenshot #3 and #4, specifically what happened to WIG #20 and how Rooney broke away?

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I'm not going to go off on another diatribe about how broken defending is in the game

[yilider]

fairly new to fm2010 and one thing that baffles me when i look at posts is things like berbatov in amc position, you retrained him? coz in that position is yellow, do colors not mean a great deal?

[ObaMartins09]

Had a good read and it really shows how simple it can be to put into practice, via basic tactical instructions.

What do you do in regards to Team Instructions by the way? I noticed you said that you adjust the TC to put into place your "plan" but what specifically did you do to find the "right" closing down, creative freedom etc?

[el_magico89]

sfraser,

I wanted to create a 4231 for my palermo side, since I am a fan of wingers and have a good amc with javier pastore.

well my problem is, when were trying to build up the game from behind, my two inside forwards act like fullbacks, they drop too deep and this causes, that I cant make any spaces and the opposition can put me easily under pressure.

when they get the ball from my fullbacks, they often tend to try to pass to center of the pitch but there is mostly nobody, whereas I wish my two DMCs stay there and support the team when building up from my own half.

well how do I get my bloody inside forwards to stay in the opposition half, when my keeper has the ball and plays to one of my defenders?

ive tried everything, set their mentality very high with forward runs often but nothing helps.

when I allow them roam, they do it sometimes but than roaming has bad affects on my teamplay since I dont want them to roam.

so what would you advise?

normally my fullbacks should stay a little bit higher, acting like side midfielders and the two inside forwards should stay as close as possible to the opposition area so that the opposition full backs cant put pressure on me in my own third.

it would be very nice, if you could help me.

do you think tempo, width etc. would also play a role? since I dont want to play a very high tempo as I dont have many players with high stamina, but I know, the faster the tempo is, the faster they will move forward.

and width I am actually using 4 notches from left so that I stay very compact.

[dz47]

another interesting thread Sfraser.

I was just wondering about the set up of your wingers. I can understand what you wanted them to do in the transition phase (ie keep width and shape and stretch the defence), but in the attacking phase, would you not want them to come inside and offer support to the striker, and another passing option to the AMC? Just looking at that last screenshot where Rooney is headed for goal, it seems to me that he's isolated, and unless the move goes exactly according to the original plan (which it obviously did!), what are his options? To me, neither no.15 or no.20 are looking to provide support to Rooney, and they are not in particularly threatening positions. Personally i would have liked to have seen 15 stay wide to give Bebartov the passing option, but maybe for 20 to cut in from that wide position once it was obvious that the move was 'on', so that he could provide more threat to the defender no.6, and provide support to Rooney. If he did this then defender no.6 would be in two minds whether to storm into the box to try to block Rooney, or stay in position to cover the run of the other attacker no.20.

Perhaps i'm drawing too much from a couple of screenshots, and I'm certainly not trying to take away from the positive things that the post clearly demonstrates. But in the spirit of discussion, i am just wondering about your thoughts on this and how happy you are with their positioning in the last stages of this move? Cheers.

[higgins]

Just some thoughts about your conclusions.

First of all I found your deductions a bit simplistic, the huge difference between the two teams involved in your example, as you said, overruns every other aspects.

You said there was not "hit and hope", I'd be not so sure about that, it would be interesting to know your gameplan being Peterborough and having to face Manchester United, just to see if, as you said, everything is so plain and simple.

Not so revealing for now, Manchester Utd. could beat the Posh in several ways, an outmoded 4-4-2 would have done the job quite well.

[SFraser]

I was just wondering about the set up of your wingers. I can understand what you wanted them to do in the transition phase (ie keep width and shape and stretch the defence), but in the attacking phase, would you not want them to come inside and offer support to the striker, and another passing option to the AMC? Just looking at that last screenshot where Rooney is headed for goal, it seems to me that he's isolated, and unless the move goes exactly according to the original plan (which it obviously did!), what are his options? To me, neither no.15 or no.20 are looking to provide support to Rooney, and they are not in particularly threatening positions. Personally i would have liked to have seen 15 stay wide to give Bebartov the passing option, but maybe for 20 to cut in from that wide position once it was obvious that the move was 'on', so that he could provide more threat to the defender no.6, and provide support to Rooney. If he did this then defender no.6 would be in two minds whether to storm into the box to try to block Rooney, or stay in position to cover the run of the other attacker no.20.

Perhaps i'm drawing too much from a couple of screenshots, and I'm certainly not trying to take away from the positive things that the post clearly demonstrates. But in the spirit of discussion, i am just wondering about your thoughts on this and how happy you are with their positioning in the last stages of this move? Cheers.

Those are fair points and in those screenshots it would certainly be nice to see the number 20 making an attacking run, potentially even giving Rooney a passing option for a tap-in inside the box.

I set the team up the way I did for several reasons:

1. I didn't expect to be hitting Peterborough United on the break very often, didn't expect to see Berbatov turning their midfielders on the half way line and be faced with such a brilliant opportunity to open up the defence. I expected to be camped in their half looking to pick my way through their tight, deep, narrow and numerous defence. This means I have to be quite picky about the job everyone is doing in attack, make sure it is simple and effective and everyone is playing to their strengths and doing something that contributes to the overall attack.

2. The plan was to have as many playmakers as possible sitting infront of the defence and looking to run at the defence, high enough up to quickly win the ball back but not so high that everyone is effectively sitting ontop of opposition defenders or ploughing into the box. Rooney was to play through the middle dropping into line with the AMC and Wingers and then turn and make runs past the defenders. Ideally my wingers would receive the ball, take an opponent or two out of the game either by dribbling inside or outside, and then play a ball across the box to Rooney or knock it back to Berbatov. Berbatov would roam around in the channels looking to run past defenders from deeper positions, run with the ball past defenders, and look for throughballs to Rooney.

3. I only recently signed Ozil and I am not endowed with wingers that have both good off the ball movement and acceleration and intelligence all at the same time. I have Giggs, Valencia, Nani all of whom have some pretty large deficiencies when it comes to making good runs off the ball, but can all beat a man and Giggs and Valencia are capable of playing a good pass.

So ultimately I didn't want to waste possession by having wingers inside the box potentially hitting shots from difficult angles, or making poorly timed runs, or being too advanced through the middle and encouraging Berbatov over to the flanks. I wanted my wingers to stay relatively deep and wide and keep Berbatov playing between them. I wanted only my best Off The Ball runners to make runs, only my best playmakers to regularly look for the throughball, and my wingers to take players out of the game by dribbling with the ball and then only attempt a throughball if it was "very on". A cautious, controlled approach to building (hopefully) a few very lethal chances.

Now the caveat is that Ozil is an exceptionally good attacking player, though he cannot finish particularly brilliantly. The ideal longterm solution to the left flank and potentially even as a replacement for Berbatov through the middle. I am still in the period of trying to "figure him out" so to speak because although his great attacking attributes are obvious they cannot explain a player to you like actually using them, watching them and experimenting with them. It is more than feasible I am wasting a large aspect of his talent by not getting him to make off-the-ball runs and it is something I shall have a good look at. However it is important for the team as a whole that attacking off the ball runs down the left do not leave the flank devoid of the ability to construct play and create chances.

[SFraser]

Just some thoughts about your conclusions.

First of all I found your deductions a bit simplistic, the huge difference between the two teams involved in your example, as you said, overruns every other aspects.

You said there was not "hit and hope", I'd be not so sure about that, it would be interesting to know your gameplan being Peterborough and having to face Manchester United, just to see if, as you said, everything is so plain and simple.

Not so revealing for now, Manchester Utd. could beat the Posh in several ways, an outmoded 4-4-2 would have done the job quite well.

Beating Peterborough with Manchester United or defeating Manchester United with Peterborough is not the point of this thread. Analysing the strengths and weaknesses of various formations is again not the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is to take people through an example of the Tactical Instructions working on players. There is nothing to deduce in this thread, there is nothing that has any relevancy to the difference in quality other than perhaps the success of the entire move in unison but again that is not the point of this thread.

So I am unsure what your criticism is supposed to apply to. There is no deduction required to post a screenshot of players arranged on the pitch according to their mentalities. No deduction required to post screenshots of players carrying out their instructions. No deduction required to post screenshots showing different behaviour from different players because of different instructions.

All the deduction involved in this thread was in deciding upon the instructions in the first place, but again this is not a thread on building good formations, on figuring out how to beat teams. It is an example thread. It is thread showing how Tactical Instructions work by using the example of a goal my team scored, according to the instructions I gave them. How good/bad the goal, the teams, the tactics, the formation etc. are is completely irrelevant barring the fact that the runs, passes and shots were successful but again success of the move is not the point.

The conclusion is that the players did what they were told. Do you disagree with that?

[higgins]

Beating Peterborough with Manchester United or defeating Manchester United with Peterborough is not the point of this thread. Analysing the strengths and weaknesses of various formations is again not the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is to take people through an example of the Tactical Instructions working on players. There is nothing to deduce in this thread, there is nothing that has any relevancy to the difference in quality other than perhaps the success of the entire move in unison but again that is not the point of this thread.

So I am unsure what your criticism is supposed to apply to. There is no deduction required to post a screenshot of players arranged on the pitch according to their mentalities. No deduction required to post screenshots of players carrying out their instructions. No deduction required to post screenshots showing different behaviour from different players because of different instructions.

All the deduction involved in this thread was in deciding upon the instructions in the first place, but again this is not a thread on building good formations, on figuring out how to beat teams. It is an example thread. It is thread showing how Tactical Instructions work by using the example of a goal my team scored, according to the instructions I gave them. How good/bad the goal, the teams, the tactics, the formation etc. are is completely irrelevant barring the fact that the runs, passes and shots were successful but again success of the move is not the point.

The conclusion is that the players did what they were told. Do you disagree with that?

No, I don't disagree, but the problem is another, your tactical plan, in this particular example, was successful because unchallenged.

You'd agree with me that breaking Peterborough defense through the middle (being Manchester) doesn't require such a complex tactical plan, considering that we're talking about a ME a bit biased (to say the least) towards teams that plays through the middle.

Did the players do what they were told? More or less (I'll explain later).

Did you need such an elaborate move (manually tweaking lots of players settings) to rip the Posh defense apart?

Probably not.

Just consider Rooney's stats and Peterborough central defenders stats: Zakuani (n.5) has positioning=10, acceleration=11 and anticipation 10, while RyanBennet (n.20) is not so much better, then as you said Rooney needed to make a dribble to score, using his superior skills to take a clean advantage over "poor" Zakuani.

So your move was successful due to Rooney's skills, not because the move was particularly well orchestrated, if you know what I mean.

[SFraser]

So your move was successful due to Rooney's skills, not because the move was particularly well orchestrated, if you know what I mean.

Sure I know what you mean, I get your point, but you are not getting the point of this thread.

Does the thread title say "Awesome Finely Tuned Goal"? Does it say "Great New Tactic"? No, it says "Tactical Instructions: How They Work".

And the fact that my team was so significantly superior to the opponent makes it nice and easy and clear and obvious to see what is going on. As I said in my first post, if it wasn't such a great example of Tactical Instructions at work I wouldn't bother posting it. It could be the worst example of tactics ever shown on this forum, but that's not the point.

[The Tactician]

Seriously, why do all of SFraser's threads become a brawl between people who seem to not understand what he means and people who seem to understand what he means taking it copletely out of context? The former in this thread and a mixture in the "4-5-1 Varients" Thread! Just because he played Peterborough doesn't mean because he instructed his player(s) to make RFD's they did. They would anyway and that's what he's trying to say. Just because his gameplan was to play wingers and his striker almost on the same line doesn't mean he couldn't do the same thing against Chelsea or anyone. A couple of times he mentioned in his OP to ignore player quality and focus on what his players did rather than how his players did it.

Keep going like this and SFraser and a few others will stop posting anything and this forum will be a much, much worse place. Lay off the man for once.

[Cleon]

Come on lets not ruined a pretty impressive thread. I'm getting tired of people coming into threads (especially with SFraser) and missing the point of the thread and seemingly dismissing all he wrote before hand. If you read the first post it is obvious what the purpose of the thread was for and what was intended. Anyone who can't respect the thread will be given a warning, I'm giving any more chances as I'm tired of the same old arguments coming up. End of, lets keep the thread on topic of what it's purpose is from now on.

[yilider]

sfrazer , did you see my question ?

[gatrap69]

Back to topic ( I hope):

I can see how your midfield and Rooney are following your instructions to the letter, but I wonder why the FBs are not getting forward at all (you write you want them to attack)? They might even overlap the wingers or (expanding on dz47's point) allowing them to cut inside. Yet, even in the last screenshot they are completely back in the defensive line. Incidentally, why don't you play them in the WB position? Especially against this particular (weak) opposition?

[isuckatfm]

Back to topic ( I hope):

I can see how your midfield and Rooney are following your instructions to the letter, but I wonder why the FBs are not getting forward at all (you write you want them to attack)? They might even overlap the wingers or (expanding on dz47's point) allowing them to cut inside. Yet, even in the last screenshot they are completely back in the defensive line. Incidentally, why don't you play them in the WB position? Especially against this particular (weak) opposition?

Partly tactical settings as mentality/RFD has an impact but also in my opinion an issue with the match engine in terms of timing being off. The swiftness of the attack due to Berbatov's RWB instructions also has an impact. Here are the first two screenshots again. If you download them and flick from the first to the second you will see the unrealistic movements indicated by the red arrows. In other words this may not be typical of where the FBs find themselves within a given tactical set up even when set to attack as SFraser says he has done but more a by-product of context and the match engine.

Also note there is the impact of transition from defensive width to attacking width whereby running angles get affected. Again this contributes to the extent to which FBs find themselves 'behind the play' and the extent to which strikers in AML-AMR-ST get isolated, especially when you have a central player receiving and running directly at a defense that drops off. I've used a yellow line to highlight this effect seeing the movement of the 'wide' players on the opposite side to the point of attack as they cross over this line with a component of their movement directed towards the sideline.

Again tactical settings can play a role with RFD settings having an impact on the extent to which attacking players look to be 'behind' the ball or not move aggressively, but ultimately in my opinion it is something that maybe needs tweaking in the match engine itself.

These 'issues' can of themselves be used to spread the opposition defense (especially ones with tight marking FBs, man in particular) and isolate their CBs against your striker(s) while simultaneously opening up passing lanes in the channels between the full backs and centre backs. But the success of this will very much depend on context and a little bit of luck in terms of how things play out.

[ignore all the extra art in the screenshots]

[KrisL]

This thread links to the thread about fundimental attacking tactics and the run with ball and run from deep are used perfectly here with berbatov beating his marker and rooney making a run from deep which creates a simple goal

[higgins]

Sure I know what you mean, I get your point, but you are not getting the point of this thread.

Does the thread title say "Awesome Finely Tuned Goal"? Does it say "Great New Tactic"? No, it says "Tactical Instructions: How They Work".

And the fact that my team was so significantly superior to the opponent makes it nice and easy and clear and obvious to see what is going on. As I said in my first post, if it wasn't such a great example of Tactical Instructions at work I wouldn't bother posting it. It could be the worst example of tactics ever shown on this forum, but that's not the point.

Maybe you don't realize that what your team is doing is what Peterborough players are allowing them to do (almost everything), probably a better opponent could have taken better countermeasures, so you should have chosen a different thread title, something like " Tactical Instructions: How they work when you play vs. a harmless opponent".

By the way Cleon, I'm a bit tired too, every time someone has a different point of view from Mr. sfraser it seems that some people here become too reactive, I thought this one was a community with freedom of speech, always respectful of other people ideas.

If this is going to become a "One man show" just let me know and my next comments to sfraser threads will be "wow!" or "great!", used alternatively, of course.

[heathxxx]

It has to be said though higgins, that although SFraser could have used a stronger opponent to display what he wanted to discuss, the actual opponent is in some respects irrelevant and that's not really the point of his post. It's also perhaps easier to present more clearly, certain aspects of play, because they appear more obvious than people might see against stronger opponents, because of the gulf in player qualities that you mentioned. I don't think anyone will dispute that fact.

This isn't about massaging anyone's ego. It's about pinpointing various aspects of play. SFraser has made what to me, is a pretty balanced view of things, with the instructions he's used, what he wanted to achieve, what he did achieve, counter-balanced with an appreciation of the difference in "quality".

The match is an FA Cup sixth round tie between Manchester United and Peterborough United at Old Trafford. As manager of Manchester United the advantage is rediculously in my favour, but this thread is not to gloat or preen or even to question the size of my familly jewels at managing Manchester United, this thread is about showing a goal that absolutely and completely and so beautifully obviously flows from simple tactical instructions.

...so their defense playing into my hands certainly helps.

Although your assessment of the difference in quality of the players is also valid, it really wasn't the point of this thread, from my reading. So your first response was pretty much unnecessary. By all means engage in debate about things, but when it appears to simply pick a hole in someone's post because of A) the poster involved or, B) the validity of the example used not being to your particular liking, it serves little but to derail the thread. If that's your intention, then please refrain from doing so, or even better, provide a counter weight to the debate, which includes examples of two "better" teams.

Personally, all that I'm interested in, is if people are willing to take the time and effort to present different aspects of the game for discussion, that their effort is appreciated. There's always scope for constructive criticism, sure, but so long as it's in the context of what the OP is trying to explain. Offhand rubbishing of someone's efforts is needless without offering an alternative example yourself. That's what Cleon was pointing towards and that's what I'm pointing to.

[KrisL]

The tactics used here would have worked against any other team using a 4-4-2 because the 4-2-3-1 is basically a 4-4-2 with advanced wingers and a withdrawn striker. As sfraser described in another thread he describes how the fullbacks are always the players in space when against a 4-4-2 and the fullback used the space provided very well and if you notice there is only 3 passes leading to this goal which is a very swift attack in my opinion and very hard to deal with. i think the reason for setting up the wingers the way they were was so that it would stretch the defence and leave a 2v2 match up with rooney and berbatov against the 2 centre halfs and everyone knows who is winning that match.

Very good tactical play, well done.

[isuckatfm]

The tactics used here would have worked against any other team using a 4-4-2 because the 4-2-3-1 is basically a 4-4-2 with advanced wingers and a withdrawn striker. As sfraser described in another thread he describes how the fullbacks are always the players in space when against a 4-4-2 and the fullback used the space provided very well and if you notice there is only 3 passes leading to this goal which is a very swift attack in my opinion and very hard to deal with. i think the reason for setting up the wingers the way they were was so that it would stretch the defence and leave a 2v2 match up with rooney and berbatov against the 2 centre halfs and everyone knows who is winning that match.

Very good tactical play, well done.

I'm talking purely FM here and not looking for a real life debate.

Peterborough away to United => defensive system

Assume the AI uses the TC

TC 442 => Rigid => Defensive, everything on defaults gives:-

- right side striker lower mentality

- right side striker tight man marking

- left side striker higher mentality

- left side striker loose zonal

These settings are evident in the behaviours of the two Peterborough strikers. The right side ST is initially off the back line but then locks on to the opposition CB against the flow of play (Man Tight Behaviour). The left side striker is initially up tight against his opposite CB but drops back as the pass goes from Evans to Berbatov and then looks to hold an aggressive position due to his higher mentality setting (and the fact the game automatically holds one striker higher regardless of mentality settings?). You see the two strikers move in opposite directions as the pass is made because of these settings.

- very deep defensive line

- low closing down settings

so as the ball comes to Berbatov and he turns to run at the defense everyone backs off

- full back set to Man Tight

not 100% concrete but as Berbatov turns and dribbles to reach the halfway line you see the Posh LB separate from his inside CB as his movement starts to mirror the Man Utd winger #15. Not what you would see in real life regardless of marking systems etc.

- both MCs set to Man Tight

- left MC slightly higher mentality

Can't say for certain but the context of following a corner might contribute but it does seem to play a role in the defensive positioning of the Peterborough left MC #17 as he seemed to get drawn initially towards the Utd #16. Mentality may play a role initially as he is the 'MCa' but marking settings have a much bigger impact on shape, especially when set to tight. The #17 Pet reactions are very poor though as I highlight in the image above comparing the distance Berbatov dribbles versus the distance Pet #17 covers in response to this.

Also look at how the Pet MCr goes from being 5/6 yards in front of Berbatov (relative to the Peterborough goal) to a few yards behind vertically. Again this is a consequence of Tight Man marking and falling behind the point of the attack. From the 3rd to the 4th screenshot you can see his movement mirroring the Utd MC #19 and in a way that looks completely unnatural, away from where the opposition are attacking.

- CBs set to Man Tight

Cannot say for certain but the only explanation based on my experience of the match engine for the way Rooney completely bypasses the Peterborough CB #20 is that at some point he moved against the flow of play to try and get tight to Rooney but got screwed by the momentum effect as Rooney ran from off him. You can kind of see this happening in the 2nd to the 3rd screenshot as the CB relative positioning inverts as the left CB drops off obeying the D Line and the Man Tight right CB obeys this setting and starts to mirror his movement to Rooney. Attributes play a role here, and might also have been an injury though.

So what I am saying here is it has nothing to do with 442 in of itself but settings and context:-

- the space for the opposition FBs aided by a deep defensive line and Zonal loose wingers

- the space for Berbatov aided by context and the more attacking MC being on that side

- the general behaviour of the Peterborough left back (settings and match engine)

- the general behaviour of the CBs

442 does not in itself mean more room for opposing FBs. Defensive Line plus winger marking settings (and closing down) does. Everything that went wrong for Peterborough here is systemic rather than a direct consequence of playing 442 (to reiterate, FM not real life).

EDIT:-

Just to clarify here that I am not saying High D Line and Marking settings will 100% reduce the space FBs find themselves in. Even with extremely aggressive settings if the GK hangs onto it long enough or delays after a corner has been claimed, the wingers in a 442 can drop right off the FBs.

[SFraser]

Alot of good points there Isuckatfm, but for all the systemic problems in the Peterborough formation the AI is never going to be able to specifically counter a human users formation. That doesn't mean there are not issues with ME itself because that's a completely undefendable point but it does mean that it is rather hard to play FM without technically exploiting FM, whether that is the intention or not. And incase anyone is wondering I did not set the team up to exploit FM but rather to do what I thought would be a fair and sound system on footballing terms, even if there is a huge advantage in the quality of players, even if the goal does come through some technical exploit of the ME, even if the plan is indeed rubbish.

You do raise some pretty robust and deep "Tactical Instructions: How They Work" points. It is as usual impressive stuff from yourself. However I think that pointing out the technical flaws of the ME and the Peterborough instructions at that level of detail is going to fly over a few heads, despite being some very enlightening stuff. It is great though and even if not quite what I had in mind if you fancy critiquing a few more screenshots I might put up some of a few goals I scored against a "better opposition" and you can go to town. Wont get any complaints from me.

What I wanted to look at was the Behaviour of my players along the lines I had instructed in more general "this instruction provokes this behaviour" terms, because watching the goal that is what I saw. A goal following clear lines of Behaviour that I had instructed into the players, even if the overall success of the move was indeed down to quality and the systemic weaknesses of Peterborough.

For example the positioning of Berbatov with Roaming and Wideplay: Moves Into Channels is on the same side as the Peterborough offensively instructed CM. Rooney is slightly to the left of centre on the Manchester United side where there would be a more obvious space given the positioning of the Peterborough midfielders, leaving the Peterborough left hand side to contain slightly more space. Whatever the precise mechanical reasons for this actual arrangement, Berbatov find himself Roaming a fair distance from his initial starting AMC position and does find himself looking to attack the Channel between FB and CB, and indeed the Channel between CM and LW whereas Rooney is significantly more Central and obviously but not excessively advanced. That was my plan and my instructions, and against a team of the quality of Peterborough as a team like Manchester United it is significantly more likely that you are going to see your own plans in a much more obvious light.

So in terms of the difference between Roaming Off/On and Wideplay: Move Into Channels/None, there is a lot of value in looking at this screenshot. And the move that follows develops pretty obviously along the lines instructed for my players. With many helping hands from the opponent no doubt.

[isuckatfm]

Alot of good points there Isuckatfm, but for all the systemic problems in the Peterborough formation the AI is never going to be able to specifically counter a human users formation. That doesn't mean there are not issues with ME itself because that's a completely undefendable point but it does mean that it is rather hard to play FM without technically exploiting FM, whether that is the intention or not. And incase anyone is wondering I did not set the team up to exploit FM but rather to do what I thought would be a fair and sound system on footballing terms, even if there is a huge advantage in the quality of players, even if the goal does come through some technical exploit of the ME, even if the plan is indeed rubbish.

I don't believe you were 'exploiting' these flaws so if any of it came across as a criticism of your post it wasn't intended. I just didn't like the sweeping statement of the post I was responding to about how the 442 does this and the 4231 does that. As you said it is difficult to avoid 'flaws' (or intended player errors depending on your perspective). The goal that won me the CL with Villa was a direct result of a flaw where the CBs seemed to decide they would man mark my strikers while Kroos waltzed right between them with the ball and slotted home in the 4th minute of stoppage time. No doubt if I was in one of my moods and conceeded a goal like that, I'd probably have been on here moaning about how crap the ME is

It is very true though that the AI as it stands won't recognise the little details that can make a difference. I think we are a few years off that type of AI (the behaviour of wide players in a 3 CB defense is evidence of this in my opinion).

The reason I mention specific match engine behaviours (as I interpret them) and criticise them is because I want people to be aware of behaviours whenever I post about certain things. In other words I do not 100% believe in 'it's your tactics' as you kind of have to make a choice between one or the other and the little things will determine which was the right choice and most of the time right/wrong is only really apparent after the fact (much like real life football I suppose).

You do raise some pretty robust and deep "Tactical Instructions: How They Work" points. It is as usual impressive stuff from yourself. However I think that pointing out the technical flaws of the ME and the Peterborough instructions at that level of detail is going to fly over a few heads, despite being some very enlightening stuff. It is great though and even if not quite what I had in mind if you fancy critiquing a few more screenshots I might put up some of a few goals I scored against a "better opposition" and you can go to town. Wont get any complaints from me.

No need. I wasn't criticising your approach or the thread at all. I saw the point you were making and I see it all the time. I play a basic 442 reliant on the strikers to do the majority of the attacking work (occasionally Kroos slips in between the lines and provides an assist or key pass). I know the settings work because I have seen them play out but I have matches where it just doesn't come off and I switch to Plan B (not all that complex to be honest, just tweak the wingers and look for a few more crosses into the box) or Plan C (where I push the FBs right on, keep a very narrow 442 and look for overlaps with basically a sledgehammer approach of overloading looking to stretch the opposition just the right amount to get something). Other times I am sitting thinking that one more attack and I'll get my typical CCC, and end up leaving the changes too late.

So every time I have a poor match or concede a goal I see why it happens and I know what the 'fixes' are, but I also know that the fixes themselves also have their own common break downs so it is a conscious choice. I use tight man/high D Line to apply pressure high up the pitch but get undone by this very behaviour in the final third. If I switched to zonal/lower D Line I'd be more compact in the final third, get less stretched and be less vulnerable to balls over the top but then I'd struggle to apply high pressure and deny outlets against a more conservative side keeping the ball patiently in and around the midfield or back and forth with their defenders. That's just one example that I hope illustrates why I try to explain mechanics and the nature of the game as I view it before giving any kind of tactical advice.

I fully got the point of the thread and my original post was not intended as a 'dig' about the differences in the quality of the opposition or your tactical approach. Apologies if that is how it came across.

What I wanted to look at was the Behaviour of my players along the lines I had instructed in more general "this instruction provokes this behaviour" terms, because watching the goal that is what I saw. A goal following clear lines of Behaviour that I had instructed into the players, even if the overall success of the move was indeed down to quality and the systemic weaknesses of Peterborough.

For example the positioning of Berbatov with Roaming and Wideplay: Moves Into Channels is on the same side as the Peterborough offensively instructed CM. Rooney is slightly to the left of centre on the Manchester United side where there would be a more obvious space given the positioning of the Peterborough midfielders, leaving the Peterborough left hand side to contain slightly more space. Whatever the precise mechanical reasons for this actual arrangement, Berbatov find himself Roaming a fair distance from his initial starting AMC position and does find himself looking to attack the Channel between FB and CB, and indeed the Channel between CM and LW whereas Rooney is significantly more Central and obviously but not excessively advanced. That was my plan and my instructions, and against a team of the quality of Peterborough as a team like Manchester United it is significantly more likely that you are going to see your own plans in a much more obvious light.

So in terms of the difference between Roaming Off/On and Wideplay: Move Into Channels/None, there is a lot of value in looking at this screenshot. And the move that follows develops pretty obviously along the lines instructed for my players. With many helping hands from the opponent no doubt.

Like I said, I followed what you were getting at with the opening post. No need to explain yourself again It was a perfect example of settings doing what they were intended to do. I though you were pretty clear about quality differences etc. but the internet being what the internet is, you never really know how people will interpret what you post and often this interpretation is heavily influenced by previous interactions. So as an 'outsider' to this I was kind of reading wondering why it was bubbling into another round of back and forth sniping. I think other people jumping in does more harm than good to be honest, and that you and higgins would have reached a point of common understanding with respect to the points you were both trying to get across (or indeed agreeing to disagree).

Never really messed around with the 4231, a few questions:-

Does Berbatov drift relative to the point of attack as he did here looking to show? Does he do it regularly?

Does he often roam out towards the touchline, doubling up with the winger on an opposition full back?

How well does he perform defensively given his workrate?

With the mixed RFD of Berbatov and the low mentality of Rooney do you find them 'switching' as it were, with Rooney receiving in the hole and Berbatov breaking towards the opposition line lookinbg to get fed in past Rooney?

1010101010

[drhay53]

Dont let the huge disparity in player quality blind you to the example. Football Manager Tactics DO what you tell them, if only you know how to instruct players, and hopefully this thread gives some real clues as to how to do things.

.

For me it's more of a problem of not knowing enough about the game of football. I've never played, rarely watched, or been given a great opportunity to appreciate the game here in the U.S. FM is the greatest sports game ever created and it's not even close, but for me the tactical side is very frustrating. I have an appreciation for great sports games so I'm desperately trying to catch up. I don't always know what I should be doing tactically to get the best out of my players and frankly, the game doesn't do anything to help. The assistant manager's 'tactical' feedback is almost solely made up of OI recommendations.

It's threads like this that really help me grasp how to get what I want from my players. If it wasn't for you and Cleon, I would have chucked this game out the window in frustration long ago.

Could I ask you a possibly related/maybe-slightly-unrelated question?

Do you feel it is something about Berbatov that controlled exactly how he timed his TB or do you think you could have controlled this with his instructions? The reason I ask this is that I'm having alot of trouble with a player in my tactic right now who I really want to be unleashing through balls, but who is wasting possession by letting them go from too deep. What is the interaction between CF and through balls, in your experience? I don't really want this player RWB too much, so maybe I should increase his mentality so his TB's are from a better location? Then I'm worried about my team being able to feed him the ball.

It's so frustrating because my other MC whose settings are not all that different (for CF or through balls, or mentality) seems to refuse to play through balls. He is a better player in every category truthfully, but he frequently gets that problem where he stands in one place, turns in three directions and refuses to pass (even with people open and mixed passing settings) and then gets tackled to lose possession. I can't for the life of me figure out why one MC blasts reckless through balls and the other won't move the ball at all. I know that alot of times this is a problem of not having anyone to pass to, but I really don't think that is the case with this setup.

So to sum up:

Other than the through balls instruction, what effect do the other instructions have on through balls, especially creative freedom and passing?

[googoo56]

Sooo, SFraser, tell me, how exactly do you get your striker to make central runs and not drift wide?

I've tried implementing your exact settings and it still wouldn't work. Have tried various strikers against various opposition but they still keep drifting into wide areas.

Thanks in advance m8!

[isuckatfm]

Sooo, SFraser, tell me, how exactly do you get your striker to make central runs and not drift wide?

I've tried implementing your exact settings and it still wouldn't work. Have tried various strikers against various opposition but they still keep drifting into wide areas.

Thanks in advance m8!

In my experimenting based opinion, you can't (assuming you're talking about attempting runs laterally/diagonally wide and behind the full back). As far as I can tell it is all about available space and if you don't have attackers occupying that space when your team regains possession or is in the process of attacking, then regardless of roaming/wideplay/[insert variable] they just naturally (hard coded) make those moves.

[SFraser]

That's true enough. You have to try and "control space" with the positioning and movement of other players. For example the Wingers in my team naturally occupy the wide areas but about level with the FC meaning that there is a lot less space towards the flanks for the FC to tend to move into.

If however you were to play in such a way where the Wingers tended to drop deeper either through their defensive instructions or through Mentality or indeed through RFD Deep/Roaming then the FC would be left with a lot more space towards the wide areas and would have a greater tendency to pop up in those areas.

That's one of the things that frustrates me about FM, the degree to which you have to manipulate all these factors in order to achieve the equivelent of a "stay through the middle" instruction. Control of lateral movement is extremely lacking in terms of instructions and extremely complex and frustrating in terms of manipulating other instructions and other players and the space on the pitch.

[googoo56]

Agree with your last paragraph Fraser. It is indeed frustrating, the lack of lateral control we have.

Thanks for isuckatfm as well for the response.

Actually I've already thought about what you guys have just said. However, I haven't really been able to fill the space on the flanks with my wingers, so the lone striker will keep looking for space drifting wide.

Is this also a natural, 'hard-coded' tendency for the wingers to drop deeper when not in possession or is it my settings? I play them in the AML/R position and have tried various settings. Maxed out their mentality with forward runs rarely/sometimes/often, also tried all kinds of closing down settings as well.

One possible solution, I guess, could be to make my striker drop REALLY deep, even when defending, and then the 2 wingers and him would burst forward on a counter from the same lateral line or so.

What do you think?

Thanks.

[ZdlR]

I think someone once had some success by placing them in the FL/FR slots. Although they may have a red dot next to them, as long as their behaviour is as desired and their ratings aren't woeful, there should not be a problem.

[isuckatfm]

Agree with your last paragraph Fraser. It is indeed frustrating, the lack of lateral control we have.

Thanks for isuckatfm as well for the response.

Actually I've already thought about what you guys have just said. However, I haven't really been able to fill the space on the flanks with my wingers, so the lone striker will keep looking for space drifting wide.

Is this also a natural, 'hard-coded' tendency for the wingers to drop deeper when not in possession or is it my settings? I play them in the AML/R position and have tried various settings. Maxed out their mentality with forward runs rarely/sometimes/often, also tried all kinds of closing down settings as well.

One possible solution, I guess, could be to make my striker drop REALLY deep, even when defending, and then the 2 wingers and him would burst forward on a counter from the same lateral line or so.

What do you think?

Thanks.

Try what ZdlR said. This is a 451 Tactics Creator. I moved the wingers to FL and FR and then just clicked next, next, next until finished. I then changed the lone striker to all of the ultra defensive settings

- 1 closing down

- mentality 1

- RFD rare

- zonal loose

- no roaming

- no wide play

Here is one example moment

If you set up a control match, managing both sides and tweak them together it will become evident within the first ten minutes the behaviours involved with those given settings. So what you see in the above image is not their absolute defensive shape and it is most of the time contextual. For example the way the FL/FR position defensively in reaction to the opposition FBs as well as their tendency to sometimes lose said FB the further he pushes forward. Could be down to attributes but could also require tweaking of maybe marking settings or mentality or a combination of both if you want to try to get the FL/FR to track the full back all of the way (assuming it is ‘possible’).

But as you say I do think it is impossible to get them to stay high up the pitch and ignore the FBs attacking moves if that is what you wanted to happen. Maybe try with the TC 433 where it has 3 narrow strikers then use wideplay plus width (maybe roaming as well) to try to get those strikers into winger type positions?

[isuckatfm]

Just as a quick continuation of the above this is what happened when I changed the FBs to all out attacking (mentality 20, RFD often).

It was fairly typical that the FL/FR would lose the FB in the mix and then scramble back to catch up. Important to note though the settings involved in terms of mentality/marking as well as the impact of defensive attributes (a lot harder to see immediately but you would expect to see a difference or a pattern emerge over the course of a season). When the FB was less aggressive with mixed/rare RFD and a lower mentality the FL/FR would find themselves dropping in defensively goalside of the FBs more often. So the point I'm making is that it is all relative and the above screenshots are not to be taken as absolutes.

[googoo56]

Thanks for all the input isuckatfm, much appreciated.

However, I think I'll try creating different styles as I'm not a big fan of FL/R's and extreme settings.

[fdawsoniv]

drHay53, I'm in the same boat. Completely amazed at how these people can see these things. Then again, I'm tactically clueless even with sports I've watched my whole life, so I doubt more exposure to futbol would help a poor sot like me.

[drhay53]

drHay53, I'm in the same boat. Completely amazed at how these people can see these things. Then again, I'm tactically clueless even with sports I've watched my whole life, so I doubt more exposure to futbol would help a poor sot like me.

I'm still struggling to put all of the pieces together.

I'm sure most of my questions are answered out there somewhere but it's not always easy to find exactly what help you need, as it's not always apparent what you're doing wrong!