Co Adriaanse's 3-3-4 & The Dutch Philosophy

[Zico10]

To those familiar with Dutch football, Co Adriaanse devotion with systems employing a back 3 is well documented. While to implement his philosophy in the Ajax youth system or to guide Willem II to a sensational qualification for Champions League and the amazing season with entertainers AZ were not a surprise due to the Dutch culture with total football, to achieve the double League and Cup with FC Porto in just one season, playing a revolutionary 3-3-4, was a complete shock and a total breakaway from the traditional tactic alignment of modern football or he wouldn't be a "philosopher" of the Dutch school.

Although he believes in an unbelievable dynamic attacking methodology, his systems first line of defense is attack and the task is simple; forwards pressing and harassing opposition defenders high up the pitch forcing mistakes, recover possession and immediately start attacking again, stretching opposition defense with 2 wingers hugging touchline and 2 strikers "hunting" the CB's, while the dynamic flow of constant attack is supported by 2 box to box players.

These short bursts of pressing throughout the whole match allow the lines behind ball to advance with the aim of "camping" inside the opposition half.

Arguably to Co Adriaanse the most important role of his tactic is the DM position.

Basically an Anchor man, but the "clock" of the team: when defending he slows down attacks, and break up play to allow forward lines to recover, and if needed he will turn into a fourth Defender.

Also he is responsible to shift the team movements in defense/attack organization.

The 2 wide full-backs' should operate a hybrid role as Centre Back and Full-Backs', playing a pivotal role in starting attacking moves, while a Sweeper Keeper is used to sweep loose through balls.

TEAM

1 GK Sweeper

3 CB's

1 Def Midfield

2 Advanced Playmaker's

2 Wingers

2 Strikers

DOWNLOAD LINK:http://www.mediafire.com/file/tjgwzyi2num/3-3-4 Co Adriaanse.tac

OPTIONAL SHOUTS: "pass to feet", "keep possession" and "work ball into box".

[Xennaz]

I'll give it a shot, perhaps on Milan. Have tried and tweaked your earlier Cryuff 343, maybe will see how both/either work.

[Falahk]

considering how impressed i was with your 4-3-1-2, i have to give this a shot, when i find time to do so

[Menz]

Glad to see someone try and take on Adriaanse's philosophy. Was considering doing it myself, looks good though.

Might test it out on a test game to see how similar it is to how i would have set it up

[Jor-el321]

Are there any player requirements for this one or do you just use the highlighted attributes in the tactics screen?

At a guess i would say you have to have a quick back 3??

[Zico10]

Are there any player requirements for this one or do you just use the highlighted attributes in the tactics screen?

At a guess i would say you have to have a quick back 3??

Yep, the attributes are on display. Not necessary, but if you have at least 1 place him in the cover position.(center CB).

[Jor-el321]

Yep, the attributes are on display. Not necessary, but if you have at least 1 place him in the cover position.(center CB).

Thanks mate. I would love to try this one. Looks fantastic.

Is it just a theory or has it been successfully tested a few times?

[Zico10]

Thanks mate. I would love to try this one. Looks fantastic.

Is it just a theory or has it been successfully tested a few times?

Countless hours of testing that my sleep pattern is feeling like Portsmouth.

[Goose54]

could you be so kind to upload it another place, whenever i try to download from filefront, i just loop and loop

[marioneta]

Only one issue.

In that team where FC PORTO where champions the defenders don't play like that.

You're right in the three defenders, but they play wide.

ONe DL, one CB and one DR.

[Eastwood]

Yeah only problem I can see with this is teams with out and out wingers, an Aaron Lennon would love to run in all that space. The little arrows on the centre back to cover rb/lb from centre would have been suitable in this situation.Like marioneta said one was DL one was DR, but then in FM you leave yourself open to at least two strikers on the one CB, especially if they have attacking midfielders occupying the anchor man. Awkward to stop atacking teams, interesting to see how it works.

[Genetic Deviant]

Zico, did you look at my 3-3-4 tactic posted in the Bielsa Chile formation thread buddy?

[Zico10]

Only one issue.

In that team where FC PORTO where champions the defenders don't play like that.

You're right in the three defenders, but they play wide.

ONe DL, one CB and one DR.

Yes marioneta, but his original formation uses a 2 hybrid CB/FB role like the Ajax system. Unfortunately you can't replicate this in FM2010, so the best next thing is to have the 2 wide CB with settings like Full-Back's, otherwise the defense is strecthed and the Full-Back's don't come inside quickly enough before a dangerous situation arises.

One of his problems with FC Porto Board of Directors, was precisely their un-willingness to support him when he tried to buy the players to fulfill those roles(in this case Kronkamp). Ideally he prefers a CB/FB , so the team can start the attacking approach from the back and wide.

I've followed his Porto experience in every detail from start to finish, and he tried this system in the beginning but Porto lacked the players to make it work, so he settled for the more simple RB/LB role (Bosingwa/Pedro Emanuel/Marek Cech). In his search for the right players even Bosingwa was tried as a DM.

I remember a game at Porto against Roma,(1-0 pre-season 2006/2007) where I have never ever seen a team spent the whole 90 minutes inside the opposition half, with Roma incapable to coming out once in an organized attack, so much was the pressure of Co Adriaanse's Porto.

In the 2006/2007 pre-season, Porto scored 40 goals in just 3 friendlies.

Unfortunately, at the end when the players were oiled into the system and as usual in portuguese football something ridiculous have to happen.

@Genetic, yep I'm going to try it.

@Eastwood yes, "Unfortunately you can't replicate this in FM2010, so the best next thing is to have the 2 wide CB with settings like Full-Back's, otherwise the defense is strecthed and the Full-Back's don't come inside quickly enough before a dangerous situation arises."

[higgins]

Hi Zico, it's good to see you appreciate Mr. Co Adriaanse "extreme" and very offensive 3-3-4, I followed a bit his career and his tactical work, he has been a bit underrated in my opinion.

He was the natural heir of Dutch totalvoetball, and I still have to understand why he had to leave Porto after he won the double with them.

It reminded me of Bela Guttmann story.

However I'll have a look at your tactic; the first thing I noticed was the tempo not set to high, is there a particular reason for that?

[Zico10]

Hi Zico, it's good to see you appreciate Mr. Co Adriaanse "extreme" and very offensive 3-3-4, I followed a bit his career and his tactical work, he has been a bit underrated in my opinion.

He was the natural heir of Dutch totalvoetball, and I still have to understand why he had to leave Porto after he won the double with them.

It reminded me of Bela Guttmann story.

However I'll have a look at your tactic; the first thing I noticed was the tempo not set to high, is there a particular reason for that?

Cheers Higgins, yes his work has been highly underrated. He needs a team that can give him space to work without interference. His main problem with Porto at that time there was a turmoil in the Boardroom with elections coming, and the major issue was the lack of support when he wanted to buy Kromkamp(£2 million) and they refuse with excuses of no money, even though they had received well over £50 million in transfers.

Yet after he left and they brought in Jesualdo Ferreira suddenly the money appeared. Typical in portuguese football, what is true today is untrue tomorow or to put it blatantly, if you do not accept interference from the board on who should play, your days are numbered.

The tempo I left it mixed as that way the team should react when to speed up or slow down the game, exactly as Adriaanse sees it.

[Bruce Drundrige]

I've toyed with a formation that looks very similar to this in the past, primarily to try and combat the narrow 4-1-2-1-2 and I initially had spectacular results...particularly against that formation. Then I tried it the next season and it was hopeless. It has great potential though...

[Falahk]

so im finnaly on my way with a test game, i went with Deportivo, and pre session is looking very promesing so far, have mostly played low level teams thought (trashing 2 of them 8-0)

[Zico10]

Updated Co Adriaanse tactic.

[Guv'nor]

Hmmm, interesting! Wasn't too sure if Adriaanse's system was more attacking 3-5-2 than 3-3-4. Its very adventurous nonetheless and did look good clad in Porto colours. Will be hard to reproduce on FM due to the obvious gaps it allows at the back. Perhaps a more Swiss Verou-slant could compensate for this? Off to the drawing board!

[Falahk]

Updated Co Adriaanse tactic.

how much is improved on the new tactic? and how have moving the cb's outfield into fullbacks worked?

[Zico10]

Hmmm' date=' interesting! Wasn't too sure if Adriaanse's system was more attacking 3-5-2 than 3-3-4. Its very adventurous nonetheless and did look good clad in Porto colours. Will be hard to reproduce on FM due to the obvious gaps it allows at the back. Perhaps a more Swiss Verou-slant could compensate for this? Off to the drawing board![/quote']

True Guv'nor, one of the capital sins of FM by now in year 2010, is the lack of in-between positions; a hybrid CB/Full Back Ajax style or the Centre Mid/Wide Mid.

The way to compensate the 3 at the back with full backs', it to play with the 3 and the DM mentality to play as unit.

@Falahk, it works well, but is a massive gamble if the full backs' are not good in marking or anticipation. I played CB's as Full backs' even though they turned red, they were excellent.

[Guv'nor]

Have you tried a flat front 4?

[Zico10]

Have you tried a flat front 4?

Yep, but you lose a little bit in midfield trying to supply the front 4, although I have to say I was testing it with Wolves and Getafe with a few saves v Barcelona, Arsenal, Liverpool, Valencia and R.Madrid.

[Guv'nor]

Rangers and Artmedia exposed the flaws in Co's system. 3-3-4 makes for good reading, but think it was more of an attack-minded 3-5-2, similar to that used by Mourinho with seconds to spare. Trying to find his actual Porto line-up, would be interesting to have another look at the backline.

[Zico10]

Rangers and Artmedia exposed the flaws in Co's system. 3-3-4 makes for good reading' date=' but think it was more of an attack-minded 3-5-2, similar to that used by Mourinho with seconds to spare. Trying to find his actual Porto line-up, would be interesting to have another look at the backline.[/quote']

Guv'nor, this thing about losing a game because your tactic was exposed is a very easy way to look at things, or in Porto case, I can tell you is not true. Don't forget they won the Double playing like that. I've watched those 2 games you mentioned above, and both had nothing to do with tactics. The Artmedia game was even more crucial to debate this, as Porto had at least 7 to 10 chances to finish the game off, yet a couple of individual mistakes cost them the game.

Personally, I think it was a period of transition between two completely different methodologies, and players were still getting used to it. As I said above, in the beginning of the 2nd season, the team was about 90% on his way to exactly the level where Co Adriaanse wanted after the Roma game, but unfortunately Board politics spoke louder.

Jesualdo Ferreira triumph afterwards came thanks' to Co Adriaanse hard work, training methodology and team building process, but unfortunately that has all gone now.

Every week, you see teams all over the world losing games, yet no one talks about tactics being exposed as long as you tactic "are required to conform to the usual standards".

Just as an example, Burnley beat Man U early in the season, and no one talked about Burnley exposing Man U tactics. Why?

Another example is Liverpool or Arsenal conceding from corners', and the so-called pundits (jokers) are very keen to blame it on the zonal marking, but when other teams' concede from corners' and man-marking, they highlight the goalscorer "beautiful" movement off the ball.

Which Porto backline are you looking for? Mourinho or Adriaanse?

[Guv'nor]

Adriaanse's approach in both games was too attack-minded. vs. Rangers, they took an early lead and had the more able players to retaini possession and hit them on the counter. This system is set up for that.

It was Adriaanse's backline that I was hoping to have a look at, how he arranged it.

[Zico10]

Bosingwa, Pepe and Pedro Emanuel/Marek Cech (WBA now).

[Guv'nor]

Very much a DR - DC - DL split! Trying to work this into a 3-3-4, using a flat 3 man midfield, all ball winning midfielders. Against a defensive front four in keeping with the Verou's intentions. Will see how the friendlies go. My persuasions lean heavily towards the direct approach and one will look to employ such a style here. Are you persisting with your slow, short passing game.

[Zico10]

Very much a DR - DC - DL split! Trying to work this into a 3-3-4' date=' using a flat 3 man midfield, all ball winning midfielders. Against a defensive front four in keeping with the Verou's intentions. Will see how the friendlies go. My persuasions lean heavily towards the direct approach and one will look to employ such a style here. Are you persisting with your slow, short passing game.[/quote']

yep, that's the key. 95% of pre-match advise in all my saves, France, Italy, Spain and England my Ass Man tells me the opposition struggles if you play Short(I'm trying now 0 ticks), High Defensive Line(14/16) and Slow Tempo(0/3) and Wasting Time(14/16). So far so very,very good!!

just taught Barca and Liverpool a lesson with Wolves, uoooohhhhh what a mojo sexy football, but I'm still fine tuning.

[Guv'nor]

Returning to this debate, how did you find the defence when arranged as a back 3 with fullbacks? Was the centreback as isolated as one would presume, on viewing the matches?

[Zico10]

Returning to this debate' date=' how did you find the defence when arranged as a back 3 with fullbacks? Was the centreback as isolated as one would presume, on viewing the matches?[/quote']

I'm deeply disappointed with the ME handling of a back 3 with full backs. The full backs push up regarding of any instructions or roles, they barely come inside to help defend, the CB act as a stopper even though you instruct him to be a sweeper or to play slightly deeper, so basically you have to hope on 2 things: a kind of road runner beep-beep CB and the opposition strikers missing chances. I'm trying different variants to try to solve this conundrum, but I may have to go back to 3 CB's.

[Guv'nor]

Yes, sentiments exact, the back 3 with fullbacks was a disaster! Tried it out vs. Wycombe with Leeds (friendly) and the goals were flying in! But for our strength up top, would've been well beaten.

[Falahk]

I'm deeply disappointed with the ME handling of a back 3 with full backs. The full backs push up regarding of any instructions or roles, they barely come inside to help defend, the CB act as a stopper even though you instruct him to be a sweeper or to play slightly deeper, so basically you have to hope on 2 things: a kind of road runner beep-beep CB and the opposition strikers missing chances. I'm trying different variants to try to solve this conundrum, but I may have to go back to 3 CB's.

its about as annoying as wide players in ML/MR on high attack setings tracking all the way back into a full back spot when thers no fullbacks in the formation (this in practice makes a flat 3-4-3 formation look like a 5-2-3), pretty much the same problem with fullbacks on defend tracking forward way to much

[Guv'nor]

Another fault is the 'wide play' option being available for all positions, when in fact, its only applies to select few. Fullbacks instructed to cut inside, do everything but that and centrehalves asked to move into the channels would rather watch the winger fly by than close down that space! Leaves alot to be desired. In trying too hard to make the game more cerebral, they've ghosted over some salient points. The 'with ball, without ball' option in Champs of old, though perhaps simplifying tactic creation a little too much, was far closer to the real thing than this. Anybody familiar with coaching seasons, will know of the emphasis placed on shadow play and the countless hours spent rehearsing defensive and attacking positions for different circumstances. In fact, Mancini's over-emphasis on the above has forced both Bellamy and Tevez to the papers! Big let down here from the ME. Perhaps a little more research was needed! Not a big fan of the new tactics framework, doubrt very much whether there is any coach in the world who assembles a team of characteristics i.e. ball winning midfielder, box to box, defensive forward etc. Take the Barcelona display vs Arsenal. Lionel Messi pressed the defence when in possesion - 'Defensive forward - on attacking mentality' according to FM. At the same time he dropped deep to get a feel of the ball and open up space - 'Playmakeer forward/Trequartista perhaps'. No being content with this, he completed his cameleon act, by finding himself on the end of throughballs - 'Advanced forward', moved into wide areas and cut inside (3rd goal) - 'Inside forward'. So perhaps, complete forward best describes his role, sticking to our FM definitions? But with what memntality? How do you get the pressing without compromising the attacking impetus? You cant, they contradict each other. Herein lies the reason why one seldom uses the new tactics engine, its riddled with flaws and appears a little rushed!

[Zico10]

But with what memntality? How do you get the pressing without compromising the attacking impetus? You cant' date=' they contradict each other. Herein lies the reason why one seldom uses the new tactics engine, its riddled with flaws and appears a little rushed![/quote']

To try to counteract that, one of my rules of thumb, is to have mentality and closing down always with same number of ticks. Unfortunately, your front line no matter what closing down they are at, they just "escort" opposition players.

Regarding choosing the team by players roles, don't even look into that. I choose the ones where I don't have to tweak that much, it might start as a Box2Box but afterwards he may end up like a mix of Advanced Playmaker and Trequartista.

[mkabas]

This tactic seem perfect for a team like Barcelona, what do you think????

[Guv'nor]

Definetely!

[Zico10]

This tactic seem perfect for a team like Barcelona, what do you think????

Yeh, but with this ME I would rather go back to 3 CB's. But I'm still fighting with it though, with the FB's.

[Guv'nor]

A bit of jiggery-pokery to get the front four pressing the opposition effectively and contributing in the defensive phase and the 3-3-4 becomes a very powerful formation!

The two banks of three in defence and midfield seem to manage more often than not, but against better opposition, the flanks are exploited. Ideally the wide-forwards should drop back and the midfield should shuffle across forming a diagonal defensive line. i.e MR-DMC-DMLC. Again, one of the luxuries that came with the side-arrows of old. A closer look at the 3-3-4 offers promise for its applicability in the modern game, providing a sound defensive orientation is employed. Working hard with a Swiss Verou at the moment, but the shortcomings of the ME are making the mountain all the more insummountable!

[ladro]

I might be giving this a go in the near future.

[Guv'nor]

No intention to rain on Zico's parade here, but do take a butchers at the 'Reinventing the Swiss Verou' thread I authored. Played a full season using a 3-3-4 with Leeds, it may be of interest to you.

I might be giving this a go in the near future.

Zico, hows it going? Still toiling with the tactic or abandoned the project? Trying to make my Verou a little more defensive, intention being to concede the fewest in the championship.

[ladro]

just read op

interesting also

will look at it soon,after trying this

[Zico10]

No intention to rain on Zico's parade here' date=' but do take a butchers at the 'Reinventing the Swiss Verou' thread I authored. Played a full season using a 3-3-4 with Leeds, it may be of interest to you.

Zico, hows it going? Still toiling with the tactic or abandoned the project? Trying to make my Verou a little more defensive, intention being to concede the fewest in the championship.[/quote']

Still not happy with the ME handling of the back 3 with FB's. I might revert to back 3 CB's.

@Ladro, thanks for your feedback.

[higgins]

Zico10, did you try your tactic using a very fluid approach and a mixed style of passing?

[phidelta42]

Will 3 DCs with the DCL and DCR set to hug touchline not work?

[EVH5150]

Please excuse me if you disagree, but I think that there are enough similarities here that my 2-1-3-1-3 formation might add to this discussion. This tactic took my Milan side through an unbeaten League season, although I did lose in the Champions League to Real Madrid.

The 2-1-3-1-3 tactic can be found here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=202386

I think it's interesting that both the 3-3-4 and the 2-1-3-1-3 - old school tactics to say the least! - are capable of working within this match engine.

[Zico10]

Back to original back 3 CB's as the ME is a complete nonsense handling a back 3 with FB's.

[Falahk]

have you done any changes apart from going back to the 3 cb's?, I ended up tweeking corner attack and defence, droping the cb's deeper and kick up the tempo a fair bit

[Zico10]

Update

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/file/tjgwzyi2num/3-3-4 Co Adriaanse.tac

[crazyscotsman]

Zico10:

Are you using this tactic as a plug and play or are you making tweaks away from home?

Update

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/file/tjgwzyi2num/3-3-4 Co Adriaanse.tac