tedder_road

Random Idea: Speech Bubbles for Players

93 posts in this topic

I was posting in another thread and had an idea for the match engine. I honestly think half the problems people have with the match engine are down to lack of feedback. Is my defender doing that because the ME is cocking up, or because he has a brain made of poop? Did the striker mean to volley the ball backwards 30 yards instead of into the goal, or was that a mishit shot?

How about a tiny speechbubble full of random characters like "*&$@#!!" to indicate that he's buggered it up and is cursing to himself? It hovers around with the player for a couple of seconds and the commentary says "so-and-so makes a hash of it" or something like that. This way we get some idea of when it's them, and when it's the Match Engine.

I know it seems like a silly idea to some people so it could obviously be a feature that can be disabled, but it would help me a hell of a lot!

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I don't like it. And how long would it be, before people here say SI just put that there to hide that inadequecies of the ME?

Not the best idea, tbh. And seeing as this game is aimed at a younger generation, I don't think many parents would be happy about it either.

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It couldn't hide the "inadequacies" because the game would have to recognise it as an error. If the game doesn't recognise it as an error, then you know it was the ME. In other words the game has to generate a player error for it to have the speech bubble. If the player and the ME think they are doing the right thing, then there would be no bubble, and it's a way to hone the ME further since we can more easily spot bugs as opposed to players cocking up from time to time, which is something that should happen.

Also, younger generation? I think this game is aimed at adults. It's not for kiddies in any way. How many 8 year olds do you know that want to spend all afternoon scouring a screen for bargain free transfers? Not many!

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How would a match engine make an unintentional error, but recognise that it made an unintentional error and be able to tell you? How would the game realise it's made an error? If it realised that, the error wouldn't take palce :confused:

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It doesn't have to be a speech bubble or whatever, it just needs to be some kind of visual feedback. How do you know when it's your tactics or your player as opposed to something silly that the game engine is doing? Same goes for testing the ME, surely.

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I'm still confused as to how the game can realise that it's made a mistake and then prompt an "i'm sorry" feature :D

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Perhaps suggestions from players at half time, like a player saying tagging another player would considerably cut their chances of scoring. Player feedback would be excellent IMO.

100TH POST, WORTHY OF CAPS LOCK! :)

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How would a match engine make an unintentional error, but recognise that it made an unintentional error and be able to tell you? How would the game realise it's made an error? If it realised that, the error wouldn't take palce :confused:

Uhh, it wouldn't?

A player error would be something like this:

Midfielder goes to pass ball back to defender, instead he chips it over him and the keeper has to dive on it.

or

Attacker shoots, but scuffs his shot badly wide.

These are player errors. The player has made a physical mistake. They are obvious enough to see, and we expect to see them in matches. The visual feedback is there - the ball didn't go where the player obviously intended it.

But there are also more complex errors that it's harder to see, and harder to know when it's the player, your tactics, or the match engine itself cocking up. For instance.

A defender clears the ball by heading it behind him. He then moves towards it extremely slowly while the attacking player closes him down. Is this the ME? Is the defender unsure of what to do? It this because he failed to use "decisions" or "anticipation" correctly? Should I have him set to "long passing" because it turns out he's cack at clearing the ball properly?

In this example, I would love to see some feedback letting me know "this player error was one generated by the match engine, he's messed up and you can shout at him about it later". Otherwise you get people wondering if it was the match engine, their tactics etc.etc.

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Uhh, it wouldn't?

In this example, I would love to see some feedback letting me know "this player error was one generated by the match engine, he's messed up and you can shout at him about it later". Otherwise you get people wondering if it was the match engine, their tactics etc.etc.

:confused: So it would then?

How can the game recognise that an error was created by the match engine? If it could there would be no need for testing!

No offence, but I think you're confusing yourself, let alone everyone else. Is the prompt telling us about match engine errors or not? No, then your idea isn't the same as your original idea. Yes, please answer my question.

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I think you've just completely misunderstood what I've said.

When I say error, I am talking about a mistake. Not an actual computer error. Maybe that's where you're getting confused?

The game can recognise it was an "error" because the game generates them all the time. It's why a player misses an open goal, or muffs a back pass or heads it into his own goal. He's made a mistake. The game engine deliberately generates these since it's perfectly reasonable that players will make mistakes.

When these happen, a player error that the ME has generated ON PURPOSE - we should get some feedback.

But when the player does something loopy and we DON'T get feedback, we would then know "ok, this was the ME messing up when it wasn't meant to".

I really can't make it any clearer than that, mate!

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I think you've just completely misunderstood what I've said.

When I say error, I am talking about a mistake. Not an actual computer error. Maybe that's where you're getting confused?

The game can recognise it was an "error" because the game generates them all the time. It's why a player misses an open goal, or muffs a back pass or heads it into his own goal. He's made a mistake. The game engine deliberately generates these since it's perfectly reasonable that players will make mistakes.

When these happen, a player error that the ME has generated ON PURPOSE - we should get some feedback.

But when the player does something loopy and we DON'T get feedback, we would then know "ok, this was the ME messing up when it wasn't meant to".

I really can't make it any clearer than that, mate!

This actually makes somewhat sense. Although I like to think that the ME is perfect and would never make such a mistake, I always see more interaction from the players as a good thing, rather than a bad.

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:confused: So it would then?

How can the game recognise that an error was created by the match engine? If it could there would be no need for testing!

No offence, but I think you're confusing yourself, let alone everyone else. Is the prompt telling us about match engine errors or not? No, then your idea isn't the same as your original idea. Yes, please answer my question.

You don't get it, do you, Elrithral? The player's bugger up is generated randomly and on purpose by the ME! So, obviously it does recognise it was an error and then presents the user with some kind of visual effect (bubbles or whatever). I like the idea! :thup:

*edit* oops, posted this before reading your last post tedder_road. Repetition of basically what you said was unintentional.

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"This way we get some idea of when it's them, and when it's the Match Engine."

Isn't it always the ME's, it generates the players game. What's the difference between an ME generated error and an error by a player, which is also generated by the ME.

Sorry, but this idea doesn't make any sense at all.

tonif, either way, the player's error is generated by the ME. :confused:

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I can clearly see what he's saying, I like the idea of feedback, maybe not through a speech bubble, maybe through assistant manager feedback saying something like "Michael Essien made a poor clearance, which lead to Wayne Rooney's goal"

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I can clearly see what he's saying, I like the idea of feedback, maybe not through a speech bubble, maybe through assistant manager feedback saying something like "Michael Essien made a poor clearance, which lead to Wayne Rooney's goal"

What does the ME have to do with this? Aren't all similar player errors generated by the ME?

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His point is, I think, is that he wants to be able to differentiate between when a player commits an error due to intentional coding within the ME, or when it "seems" a player has comitted an error, but really, it was down to a bug in the ME/graphical representation.

In order to be able to differentiate these he wants a way to be able to recognise intentionally ME calculated mistakes, through feedback.

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"This way we get some idea of when it's them, and when it's the Match Engine."

Isn't it always the ME's, it generates the players game. What's the difference between an ME generated error and an error by a player, which is also generated by the ME.

Sorry, but this idea doesn't make any sense at all.

tonif, either way, the player's error is generated by the ME. :confused:

Presently the ME contains a few flaws (mistakes in coding), most notorious being the back passes to goalkeepers which very often end up as corners. This an error generated by the ME which shouldn't be there and will be rectified in the next patch (hopefully); errors by players like shooting ball into orbit, poor clearances, and so on, are errors generated by the game/ME on purpose. There's the difference.

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or when it "seems" a player has comitted an error, but really, it was down to a bug in the ME/graphical representation.

Again, if the game could make the difference there would be no need for testers.

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Again, if the game could make the difference there would be no need for testers.

Actually, it's just clicked, apologies :).

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That's possibly one of the worst ideas I've ever had the displeasure of reading. Reminds me of 'The Sims' which as we all know is a game for lonely teenagers. Why don't we have inner most fears and desire on their personal information. an example: Wayne Rooney secretly fancies manager Sir Alex, and fear's Octupus attack.

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Then again, if you had an absolutely perfect 3D/2D match engine, all errors by players would be seen as intentionally generated by the ME, and there would be no need for that type of thing.

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That's possibly one of the worst ideas I've ever had the displeasure of reading. Reminds me of 'The Sims' which as we all know is a game for lonely teenagers. Why don't we have inner most fears and desire on their personal information. an example: Wayne Rooney secretly fancies manager Sir Alex, and fear's Octupus attack.

It doesn't have to be a speech bubble. It's the first thing I could think of as a way of highlighting a player who has made and error that the game INTENDED him to make.

When I talk about ME errors, I mean errors actually in the code of the ME, as some people have pointed out. An UNINTENTIONAL error that is down purely to a bug in the ME.

This is nothing like the Sims. I just want to know when a player made a mistake, and as someone pointed out, to be able to berate him for that mistake later on.

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Does it not mention player errors on commentary?

Like "thats gone horribly wide", or something along those lines, or, it was "Player A's error that lead to the goal".

I don't think I get the point of them?

Just to show a mistake, that we've already seen?

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When I talk about ME errors, I mean errors actually in the code of the ME, as some people have pointed out. An UNINTENTIONAL error that is down purely to a bug in the ME.

Still to be convinced that it is possible for the game to realise that it has committed a bug error. If it could, it would already be implemented and SI would be able to fix all the bugs :D

Seriously lads, come on, this is nonsense.

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Still to be convinced that it is possible for the game to realise that it has committed a bug error. If it could, it would already be implemented and SI would be able to fix all the bugs :D

Seriously lads, come on, this is nonsense.

It's Nonce sense

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It doesn't have to be a speech bubble. It's the first thing I could think of as a way of highlighting a player who has made and error that the game INTENDED him to make.
How about making the player put his both hands over his head or kick the air, when they screw up?

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It's Nonce sense

I thought as much as soon as I smelt the hammers wafting through my keyboard.

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Still to be convinced that it is possible for the game to realise that it has committed a bug error. If it could, it would already be implemented and SI would be able to fix all the bugs :D

Seriously lads, come on, this is nonsense.

I'm still to be convinced that you actually understand my point, but there you go. As I've said - the whole point is that if it's a bug, we don't get any feedback. Therefore, we know for sure it's a bug in the game, and not the player messing up because the match engine decided he made an error.

If you don't get it after the ten different ways it's been explained by me and other people, then I don't know what more to tell you.

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The game doesn't know that it's a bug for Christ sake!!!

:D

Please can a mod or SI explain this!

Sorry, i'm not being rude, but this conversation is just so bizarre.

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The game doesn't know that it's a bug for Christ sake!
Of course it doesn't! Therefore we won't see feedback when there's a bug, for Christ sake! :D

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No, you will see feedback because the game won't realise that it's done something wrong and will tell you that it was a player error. The ME isn't capable of telling the difference, that's why it's a bug :D

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No, you will see feedback because the game won't realise that it's done something wrong and will tell you that it was a player error. The ME isn't capable of telling the difference, that's why it's a bug :D
*knocking head against wall* No, you will NOT see feedback because the the error/bug was NOT programmed to happen! :D

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It wasn't programmed to happen, but it does happen because of programming so the game will consider it normal.

If it was simple as you guys are making out, SI would just add this and then get indicators for every single bug, which begs the question; why haven't they done this yet? The answer - because it's rubbish and impossible.

Sorry, but i'm off, this is too mad for me.

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The game doesn't know that it's a bug for Christ sake!!!

:D

Please can a mod or SI explain this!

Sorry, i'm not being rude, but this conversation is just so bizarre.

The game doesn't know its a bug, but YOU (or a tester) would know because no speech bubble (or whatever) had been coded. So if there is a mistake made by a player and no animation has been included - then it can be detected as being a bug. the game works it out for you - but it doesn't know that.

I see the point he is making - but i dont necessarily see it as a working idea simply because i dont think everything could be covered with animation - therefore leaving us wondering if the coding was missed - or if it is a bug. We would kinda be back to square one again. Which is i think where Elrithral is coming from.

Hope that makes sense.:D

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The game doesn't know its a bug, but YOU (or a tester) would know because no speech bubble (or whatever) had been coded. So if there is a mistake made by a player and no animation has been included - then it can be detected as being a bug. the game works it out for you - but it doesn't know that.

I see the point he is making - but i dont necessarily see it as a working idea simply because i dont think everything could be covered with animation - therefore leaving us wondering if the coding was missed - or if it is a bug. We would kinda be back to square one again. Which is i think where Elrithral is coming from.

Hope that makes sense.:D

To be honest, they are both viable ideas. As I have no idea about game coding or such, I think it's best to leave this to SI or someone with technical knowledge of how this works. :thup:

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Surely all player errors are deliberately generated by the ME. The real question which would be useful is whether it's because I have crap players or I have crap tactics.

What type of error can the ME make that is not represented by a player error? A bug in the ME is still going to be represented on the screen as a player error.

The problem with the ME is it's interpretation of the effect of tactics and the representation of player errors on the screen - back passes from the half way line that go out for a corner, players not running to pick up a loose ball etc etc.

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Give me strength Lord. I knew some of you lot were a few bricks short of a wall but come on, this is really, really easy to understand. Pay attention Elrithral in particular.

A player error : when a player does something in a match that causes a serious negative outcome for his team, or could have led to a serious negative outcome for his team.

Examples of player errors: A badly misplaced pass that instead finds an opponent in a critical part of the pitch, a mistimed header that lets the ball through for an attacker, a mistimed challenge causing the defender to stumble that leaves the attacker unmarked and in on goal, a terrible clearance, a goalie throwing the ball into his own net.

These are all things that players do because the match engine has deliberately decided that a player has made a mistake. The Match Engine is coded to simulate players making horrible mistakes.

Things that are not player errors: Missed shots, routinely missed passes, clearances that go out for a throw-in, giving away possession through dwelling on the ball, being weak and losing out in a tackle or a challenged header.

There is a THIRD kind of error. The error that occurs because the match engine has a bug in the code. Prior to patch 10.1.1, an example would be this bug that was fixed :

"Made keeper hoof bobbly ball clear when dangerous to try to control it"

This was something the keeper was doing because the Match Engine had a bug in the code. The coders of the Match Engine do not want the keeper to attempt to control the ball when it's bouncing around all over the place, but he was doing it anyway. A player error has been generated, but it's one that occured because the match engine had a fault in it.

So you've got players making two kinds of mistake.

What I am asking for is the match engine to reveal to us when it has made a mistake ON PURPOSE. And therefore, when a terrible mistake happens and the match engine says NOTHING, what can we infer? That the match engine has generated that mistake, BY MISTAKE! This helps us to understand when the players are doing something wrong because they are humans (or simulated humans) who make mistakes from time to time, or if it's our tactics or in fact a bug in the game. I think this would help us to understand a bit more about the match engine, about our players and would also help a lot with testing, surely?

If you don't get it now, I am done trying to help you!

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I was posting in another thread and had an idea for the match engine. I honestly think half the problems people have with the match engine are down to lack of feedback. Is my defender doing that because the ME is cocking up, or because he has a brain made of poop? Did the striker mean to volley the ball backwards 30 yards instead of into the goal, or was that a mishit shot?

How about a tiny speechbubble full of random characters like "*&$@#!!" to indicate that he's buggered it up and is cursing to himself? It hovers around with the player for a couple of seconds and the commentary says "so-and-so makes a hash of it" or something like that. This way we get some idea of when it's them, and when it's the Match Engine.

I know it seems like a silly idea to some people so it could obviously be a feature that can be disabled, but it would help me a hell of a lot!

You sir, are a "*&$@#!!"

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What I am asking for is the match engine to reveal to us when it has made a mistake ON PURPOSE. And therefore, when a terrible mistake happens and the match engine says NOTHING, what can we infer? That the match engine has generated that mistake, BY MISTAKE! This helps us to understand when the players are doing something wrong because they are humans (or simulated humans) who make mistakes from time to time, or if it's our tactics or in fact a bug in the game. I think this would help us to understand a bit more about the match engine, about our players and would also help a lot with testing, surely?

If you don't get it now, I am done trying to help you!

But what if your tactics led to the player making a mistake??? - Would that mean a bubble is needed or not?? What if the coding missed a few animations?? - you would think its a bug when its not. I think there are too many variables that would ultimately make the ME digress rather than progress.

I think enough info is in the commentary if it is read properly.

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I understand the point and actually I think it's a good idea in principal. Not entirely sure if the swear bubble is the best way to go.

I think that the saved matches could then be uploaded for someone to look over and hopefully eradicate the bugs in future releases and patches. Not sure on what SI's view on this would be.

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I think enough info is in the commentary if it is read properly.
The commentary is fine. No misinterpretations in the commentary. It's the graphical misrepresentation of the ME, which could lead to misinterpretation of the action by the user, on some occasions, that tedder_road is referring to.

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The commentary is fine. No misinterpretations in the commentary. It's the graphical misrepresentation of the ME, which could lead to misinterpretation of the action by the user, on some occasions, that tedder_road is referring to.

I second this. Like I say the principal is very good, but it needs fleshing out before it can be implemented. Even if it's only for testers, this could be a useful tool.

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I can see the logic and I don't think it's a silly idea at all, in principle. You want to be able to differentiate, for example, between 1) a player deliberately hammering the ball in to touch because he doesn't think he's got any viable passing options or 2) a player trying to play a long ball forward but slicing it out of touch because his technique is useless.

Or you want to know if a goalkeeper's ignoring your instruction to throw the ball to a defender because he's 1) just naturally inclined to doing what he wants or 2) because he doesn't think that the defenders are in enough space.

I'm sure the way that the ME is programmed means the game can differentiate between these kind of things.

I think an improvement in the text commentary would probably do the trick, though.

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Not entirely sure if the swear bubble is the best way to go.
No, not necessarily a swear bubble. He just gave that as an example.I suggested earlier that making the player show his frustration by, for instance, clutching the top of his head with both heads (as they do it IRL), would be a good idea.

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The idea's decent, although finding a way to represent it in the match engine is problematic (like everyone else seemingly, I'm against the speech bubble popping up). The other major issue, is that there's not always a clear dividing line between what's a mistake and what isn't. Is a massively overhit cross that drops to the winger on the other side of the pitch a mistake? Is a ball put out of play when there was only a slightly risky pass on a mistake? Is a player having a shot when clean through on goal a mistake when there's a better option available if he squares it?

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