'A.I. Cracks tactic'

[ReclaimTheKop]

Alot of people have been writing in various threads about the a.i. 'cracking' peoples tactics. I just wanted to hear peoples opinions on this subject to see if this is true as in real life tactics don't really get cracked. A team may lose momentum but I wouldn't say their tactics get 'cracked' as per say.

Anyway just wanted to hear peoples opinons:

[andersonn]

i dont believe that A.I. can stop player tactics without cracking..When you play so good,then there will be a cracking.İf there wont be a diablo tactic,it is because there is a cracking..

cheers.

[Butters76]

Yeah, I find even the best tactics lose its effect after 9-10 games. Then I switch to a different tatics for 4-5 games and then back to the original tac again. If I stick to the same tactics after about 10 matches we start performing crap, but if I then just use another tac for a few matches the org tactics is good as gold again.

[lam]

Mods and SI have said on numerous occassions that tactics do not get 'cracked'.

All that happens is your 'threat' as a team gets re-evaluated at points in the season and when this happens opposition teams react differntly to you. So, you may have been on a great run and then suddenly bam! you start losing games. This is simply down to the opposition teams be alittle more cautious against you and you not recognising it.

I'll point one massive thing out here, and will expect some backfire from this.

Have a look at people who say their tactics get crack.

A) they will not have to many posts or have a few, but are relatively new to the forums.

B) They will rarely, if ever, read scout reports and actualy use them.

C) They will rarely watch games in more detail than key points.

Of course, there are exceptions to the above rules and of course there are people that play like the above and do well. But my point is, comments about cracking tactics are made by managers that do not use game information that is presented to them. They generally play a click'n'go game.

I am taking things slow in this version, but I have gone through 12 seasons or so (get a little bored after that) in FM09 with the exact same formation/tactics, albeit with adjustments mentality etc with enormous success.

LAM

[ReclaimTheKop]

I totally agree with iam. This myth of tactics getting 'cracked' needs to be quashed if you ask me.

[andersonn]

nobody even SI can make a game without A.I. cracking tactics,this is a game and it cant be perfect like real life.

[Cross]

That is not true. I'm winning the Dutch Eredivisie for the 4the year in a row now with the same tactic. The only thing you have to do is to tweak it when you play away from home or when you are the underdog (in my case as Heerenveen vs Ajax or PSV or a Champions League match).

The thing people should understand is that it is allmost impossible to have one tactic working all the time.

[info0]

So you say Ferguson changes tactic all the time? Pardon me that's bullcrap. The same goes for Barcelona. They did change they way of play ONCE last season that was in CL Final vs Man Utd, where Ferguson thought they will play usual one touch footy . Unfortunatelly they played something different and whole Fergie plan collapsed .

You know in real life any change to tactic can be disastrous, players LEARN how to play in certain tactic. It's not mathematics. I find it unrealistic to change tactics every 10 games. Players wouldn't adapt to new formation in the middle of the season...

AI cracking is a myth from Championship Manager days . Sure AI will change tactics to try and exploit your weaknesses. They have got only certain amount of tactics to chose from. They can't do much [AI can't use sliders (just like in CM it couldn't use wib/wob :o) only simple instructions].

[Drunkenmaster]

So you say Ferguson changes tactic all the time? Pardon me that's bullcrap. The same goes for Barcelona. They did change they way of play ONCE last season that was in CL Final vs Man Utd, where Ferguson thought they will play usual one touch footy . Unfortunatelly they played something different and whole Fergie plan collapsed .

You know in real life any change to tactic can be disastrous, players LEARN how to play in certain tactic. It's not mathematics. I find it unrealistic to change tactics every 10 games. Players wouldn't adapt to new formation in the middle of the season...

AI cracking is a myth from Championship Manager days . Sure AI will change tactics to try and exploit your weaknesses. They have got only certain amount of tactics to chose from. They can't do much [AI can't use sliders (just like in CM it couldn't use wib/wob :o) only simple instructions].

If you simply define Tactics as the formation and passing style then ofc real life managers dont change tactics all the time - but tactics is more than that and ofc real life managers changet their tactics for every single match - to suggest otherwise is "bullcrap".

They will alter tactics based on available players, opposition players, opposition play style etc etc. If you dont understand that when watching football then you must be pretty blind.

On topic I just like to agree that if you want one tactic ie a formation to work all the time then ofc you need to micro manage the games by watching more highlights, good oppo instructions, substituions etc - its not the AI cracking you its just lazy management

[info0]

Hmm ofc you can see changes. Defending the lead, pushing defense up etc. However, comparing RL to game is stupid. Game cannot emulate player emotions for example.

However, I asked did you see any manager to completly change their formation?

[TheBetterHalf]

So you say Ferguson changes tactic all the time? Pardon me that's bullcrap.

Where does anybody state this in this thread ?:confused:

[sven78]

I think this is always an interesting point to dicuss.

There is no doubt about it that the AI adapts to how you play. I have 1 huge problem with this however. My problem is that the game uses its knowledge of your tactics over a period of say 8 games and then whoever the team is on the 9th game gets the benefit of this knowledge regardless of ability, form going into the game, player ability etc. It just all comes together against you in 1 game.

You unfortunately have to accept that this is the way the game has gone...........the game would be a dead duck in the water if it hadn't as the diablo tactics of fm2005 and fm2006 would have ruined it. None of us in our heart of hearts would ever have wanted this regardless of the frustrations the game causes.

[Hammerpool]

Mods and SI have said on numerous occassions that tactics do not get 'cracked'.

All that happens is your 'threat' as a team gets re-evaluated at points in the season and when this happens opposition teams react differntly to you. So, you may have been on a great run and then suddenly bam! you start losing games. This is simply down to the opposition teams be alittle more cautious against you and you not recognising it.

I'll point one massive thing out here, and will expect some backfire from this.

Have a look at people who say their tactics get crack.

A) they will not have to many posts or have a few, but are relatively new to the forums.

B) They will rarely, if ever, read scout reports and actualy use them.

C) They will rarely watch games in more detail than key points.

Of course, there are exceptions to the above rules and of course there are people that play like the above and do well. But my point is, comments about cracking tactics are made by managers that do not use game information that is presented to them. They generally play a click'n'go game.

I am taking things slow in this version, but I have gone through 12 seasons or so (get a little bored after that) in FM09 with the exact same formation/tactics, albeit with adjustments mentality etc with enormous success.

LAM

Mods and SI have said on numerous occassions that tactics do not get 'cracked'.

All that happens is your 'threat' as a team gets re-evaluated at points in the season and when this happens opposition teams react differntly to you. So, you may have been on a great run and then suddenly bam! you start losing games. This is simply down to the opposition teams be alittle more cautious against you and you not recognising it.

Fundamentally this is your tactis being cracked ?? !!

Little tweaks here and there seem to keep the AI on its toes.

[barry from eastenders]

tweaks wont prevent difficulties after you are re-ranked

ive come to the conclusion it effects your team mentally more than anything, because after being re-ranked i can still create chances against more cautious opponents yet my strikers would turn to jelly in front of goal. so i experimented with team talks and watching the motivation in game and found that using "expect a win" at home and "result will come" away, with "dont get careless/dont let your performance drop" at half time if you notice any of your players getting complacent/nervous just before half time. obviously using a "control" strategy helps to get the first goal, then i know they will come out of their shell so switch back to a balanced or counter attacking strategy.

hope this helps someone, its at least something practical you can try rather than the crap the so called experts on here come out with

[lance101]

In previous FMs there were some tactics that were so good that no matter how much the AI re-ranked you, you would still dominate - so clearly AI didn't "crack your tactics" back then. In this FM, to SI's credit, I should say I have yet to stumble a tactic that can dominate games in that way, but using a simple tactic set of 4 tactics, all with the same base formation, I have managed quite some success, so I agree with those who say that all this AI cracking talk is non-sense, as it would assume the game cheats, which I don't believe is the case.

Some users who always use the same tactic are experience the effects of re-ranking, ie. they might be using a tactic that is very good against teams that play openly against them, but not so great when teams start defending more and trying to counter.

[DanTheMan999]

Tactics did use to get cracked before the update to the 2D engine. Now, it's re-ranking.

[lam]

Look...... its as simple as this. If you are the type of player that sets up the same for every home game and maybe even the away games AND you manage to do well (above expectations)..... you are absoloutley going to have problems after the re-evaluation kicks in.

If, however, you are a player that reads each game as it comes, making changes where necessary, which may involve not making changes from your last game, then you will hardy notice the re-evaluation. I didn't notice in my first season or my second season, both of which I massively over performed.

The reason for this is as stated above. In each and every game I used the information the game presented to me, beit scout reports, weather reports, key player awareness, match odds and whatever else showed itself. Because of this you could argue that my tactic was changing continualy, even if it was just minor changes. But the point is, because I use the information presented I was always on top.

Unfortunately for SI, they are caught in a circle and are victims of their own success (some may view). They have been asked to continualy create a more realistic game and in doing so, the game is slowly becoming one that can not simply be ploughed through. Now, don't get me wrong, the game can be played in any which way you wish, but in order to NOT get the frustrations that so many people seem to post about, you need to play it as designed. Which is to use all the information made available.

There are a great many posts by some ver experienced players. They all do well and they all use all the (or combinations of) stats, figures, feedback, reports (weather, key players, scouts) and odds and many other things.

If however, you want to play a 'click click' game, then you are going to have to expect to make adjustments, howver frustrating this may be. Take any team in the professional world and they do NOT line up the same every week. Changing just a single player make the team play differently, removing a throughball instruction from a player makes the team play differently.

I think I have kind of lost track here a little my basic point is, if you play exactl the same way week in week out, then surely you must expect to have issues. If however, you play a little differently each game, then many of those issues to not materialise.

LAM

[tak]

I haven't yet noticed that things become difficult after 8 games. What I have noticed though, is that in February the team collapses. Not physcally as some might say (to point out that it might be the training) but mentaly. They seem to lose focus and think only about the carnival. Two championships I lost because of February.

[Sarmatian]

Look...... its as simple as this. If you are the type of player that sets up the same for every home game and maybe even the away games AND you manage to do well (above expectations)..... you are absoloutley going to have problems after the re-evaluation kicks in.

Would you mind expanding on re-evaluation?

For example I've had a save as Barcelona. One of the best teams in the world, if not the best. After about 10-15 I was 1st in the league, a few points ahead of Real and 4-5 ahead Atletico.

Basically, I was where I was supposed to be, where the game assumed I would be. My reputation didn't grow suddenly. And yet, after 15 or so games, AI started to perform much better against me. I've still created chances only less, but Ibrahimovic, Messi, Ribery, Henry... suddenly started missing sitters. Messi scored 1 in 5 one-on-ones, for example.

What did re-evaluation did in this case?

[TheBetterHalf]

Would you mind expanding on re-evaluation?

For example I've had a save as Barcelona. One of the best teams in the world, if not the best. After about 10-15 I was 1st in the league, a few points ahead of Real and 4-5 ahead Atletico.

Basically, I was where I was supposed to be, where the game assumed I would be. My reputation didn't grow suddenly. And yet, after 15 or so games, AI started to perform much better against me. I've still created chances only less, but Ibrahimovic, Messi, Ribery, Henry... suddenly started missing sitters. Messi scored 1 in 5 one-on-ones, for example.

What did re-evaluation did in this case?

I would say that the missed sitters oftenly are down to conplacency and the fact that the AI are better positioned to put pressure on your player ( evenb though this can be very hard to see in the 2D/3D.)

Even if playing as Barcelona, where you would think most teams would play very defensive no matter the circumstances, theam,s actually dont park the bus early in the season but try to attack on the counter, often loosing out in both possession and in their defenisve positioning When having decided to park the buss, they keep possession better and our top notch players tend to get frustrated and their slight overconfidence makes them less willing to do the dirty work of closing down their packed midfield

[jcafcwbb]

In Real Life tactics don't get cracked and in the main teams don't get re-evaulated. Managers will play more defensively minded against the bigger/better teams but they will only make minor tweaks. Do you think that Harry Redknapp would change his entire way of playing for the visit of Wolves or would he put out the best eleven he can? He might though play a more workmanlike team for the visit of Chelsea. Chelsea will be used to breaking down deep lying defenses as they encounter it most matches. I believe they can struggle more against teams prepared to attack them as they aren't used to that.

But injuries, suspensions and form factors do happen. IRL teams with the better squads to cover for this will do the best.

You can see how Liverpool have struggled without Torres and Gerrard; their replacements not being of the same calibre.

Tottenham saw their form drop when Modric got injured.

I'd love to see FM evolving to a game where squad building and motivating played a greater part of determining results just as much as trying to find the right formation and opponent tactics dominates now.

[TheBetterHalf]

In Real Life tactics don't get cracked and in the main teams don't get re-evaulated. Managers will play more defensively minded against the bigger/better teams but they will only make minor tweaks. Do you think that Harry Redknapp would change his entire way of playing for the visit of Wolves or would he put out the best eleven he can?.

I think most managers would if Wolves where 2nd in the league but not if they where being 8th or 12th

[lam]

My view on Re-evaluation or re-rankng if you like, is that as the season progresses the various teams around you become aware of your abilities. Now in cases such as Barcelona, where you are already considered a major threat, this is likely to be less an affect of re-ranking than say that of Hull last season, where teams were originaly lining up against them in the mind set of kicking their ar$es.

Once they assess your threat they will adjust their tactics accordingly. Either opperating in a more offensive style OR as we often see here, in a more defensive style. So (assuming use of Wizard here), your control tactic is no longer allowing you to break down the defenses. It gives you more possession than previously, but you just can not seem to score. Those through balls, just don't get through, your striker is crowded off the ball all to often and there seem to be to many last gasp clearances against you. These are all symptons of a team setup defensively and making it hard to score against.

You have to be more creative, you have to use the information presented to you, you have to look at their players and discover a weakness. Their DM that is now playing without confidence, might play even worse if you man mark him and tackle him hard...... etc etc. Their aging WB at 60minsutes into the game, may now be more susceptable to some through balls.

As expected, I have yet to see a post complaining that their team were doing poorly and are now suddenly moving up the table..... why don't we see this? well.... simply put, it gets recognised as good management, yet surely if there is a case for it against you, then surely there is a case for it for you?

So, when you do well...... its all down to you, as there are no faults in the game, however.............. when things start going wrong, then, holy crap, the game just went and broke on me!

Don't get me wrong, there are faults in the game, however, the one in discussion here has been around since I have been playing and always will be.

I bet, gonna take a punt here, most people that complain about it, do NOT do what I listed in my previous post. I bet they generally get through the game at a fair pace. And, as I said, there is nothing wrong with that, but in order to master the game or even perform well on a consistent basis, you have to understand it and playing like that won't allow you to learn enough.

You need to get your hidden stat of 'consistency' up

LAM

[jcafcwbb]

I think most managers would if Wolves where 2nd in the league but not if they where being 8th or 12th

That's exactly my point. Managers won't change their sides/tactics for teams in poor form/league position or for teams with a weaker side. It makes no sense.

Ironically for me it is currently Spurs 0 Wolves 1 IRL. So what slider has Harry got in the wrong position?

[jcafcwbb]

A genuine question about the game.

How much can good players save a bad tactic - ie can Didier Drogba's brilliance paper over the cracks in your tactic in the game?

[lam]

aarrrghhh spurs 0 - 1 wigan........... thats terrible

[phnompenhandy]

A genuine question about the game.

How much can good players save a bad tactic - ie can Didier Drogba's brilliance paper over the cracks in your tactic in the game?

Yes. Witness the myriads of FM novices/casuals who are tactically inept yet do well enough with your Man Yooz amd Reals. I'd guess if you managed Chelski and put everything on default you should still finish Top 4.

[lance101]

Also, just because you had a good streak of 8 games when you first loaded a tactic doesn't mean that your tactic is the Sh#$@#, and that if you loaded again from the start you would win 8 games again, and be cracked again at that point. All the people saying the AI cracks their tactics should also remember the game is in a big part random, and therefore doing the same thing will not always guarantee you wins.

[info0]

If AI cracks your tactic results should be the same after game reload right?

Fir example you play the same game twice (save before game). First game you lose 0-3 you get frustrated and reload. You do nothing with the tactic, field the same squad and bang... You win 4-0 :/.

That's mysterious part for sure. Save/Load is not the way to go though, but it just proves AI cracking is myth somewhat.

[lance101]

Yeap info0, if the AI "cracked" your tactics, and cheated you out a win, you would lose no matter how many times you reloaded... which anyone can verify that is not the case.

[lam]

There is something else that i keep meaning to add.

I feel that teams re-evaluate your threat based on your reputations and of course performances, but i feel that reputation is the foundations of how they setup against you.

You can see this in effect when you play european games. Often, you may be struggling in the league after the so called cracking, yet get some outstanding results in the european leagues, this is because they use a different repuations system. I beleive they use the world one. So whilst you may be kicking ass in the league then hitting a barren spot, your european/world reputation hasnt really moved. Obvsiouly this is more applicable to teams that are just breaking into Europe and also reflects my earlier comments about the bigger teams not really suffering to badly from the re-evaluation.

LAM

[info0]

I haven't encountered re-evaluation in 2 seasons with Barcelona. Both seasons I went unbeaten in league (in first I won 32 games drawn 6 next year 29 won 9 draws ). Not so lucky in Champs League tho. In 1st season I won CL beating Inter in final 3-1. Next year I got to quarters beaten in them by Man Utd .

Weird game .

[tak]

I still haven't encountered re-evaluation. I have beem unbeaten in the league with Debrecen for the last 7 years. Unbeaten in CL as well. So far I haven't been beaten. I am on an unbeaten run.

[chengharry]

I don't think there is such a thing with AI cracking our tactic. however speaking so all tactic have its weaker point.

I wouldn't be surprise that some tactical genies AI manager are able to spot that weak point and hit it hard.

In addition, I believe a certain random factors (e.g. luck) plays a big role in match so as the player's motivation and confidence level.

[Loversleaper]

The AI doesn't crack tactics as they have the same tactical options as Human Users have. If I were to explain the mechanics behind AI's behavior it would be roughly like so:

Let's say that your normal home tactic has a Mentality of (15) and the other slider settings have around the same 'degree' of value (slider positions/settings) in the Attacking part of the Mechanism (ME). Procentage-wise Mentality (15) can be translated to Attacking 75% and Defending 25%, now: the AI will (for example) maybe use a loose tactic/formation (at the beginning part of the game) where the AI will play a more normal type of game because they play their 'chance' against you as the Human User might not be a competent manager, so let's say the AI uses a Mentality of (10) which would be 50% Attack and 50% Defend (complimentated with other normal slider settings) and this creates an 'over-all' value.

Your value: 75% Attacking against the AI's value: 50% Defending. As you can see here you are 'over-powering' the AI's defensive 'value' and since you have other 'sound slider settings' you will beat the AI more times than not. After you win for a while then the AI will change it's Defending value from 50% up to around 75%, which would translate to around (5) on the Mentality slider (plus coherent slider changes on the other sliders to make the 'over-all' values more 'sound'). This changes the values:

Your value: 75% Attacking against the AI's value: 75% Defending. Here is what makes the AI's tactical outlook more 'sound' causing your team to have problems, this is where you have to start to go more 'extreme' on the sliders to really over-power the AI Mechanism. It might take a Mentality of (18) plus other coherent slider settings (Overload ideology) to over-power this Defensive AI mechanism (at home). If you look at things this way then you can see why the the top teams don't experience so much difference tactically (re-ranking) because when the Human User finds settings that work (which is usually in the 'Overloading' slider setting area) then the AI will have a real hard time finding settings (plus player attributes) that can 'overpower' the Human Users' Attacking mechanism, the only difference in behavior you might see from the AI would be from some of the other 'Elite' teams that might go more defensively due to your results (League wins, Cup wins, ect...).

It is not necessairly exactly how I explained above as there are always some exceptions here and there, but it is the general idea (or was...) on how the mechanism works and how 'values' are determined. 'Values' are created by your players' attributes plus settings and they are measured against your next opponent, home matches gives you an increase in value as well as team moral (moral mechanics a little too influencial, in my oppinion)...