4-2-3-1 Formation

[zychan1]

The Germany team at this World Cup is probably the best example of what I'm trying to achieve with my 4-2-3-1 right now. Podolski and Muller are in actual fact hard working strikers playing on the wings while Ozil dances off the big Klose up front. Schweinsteiger is the DLP who controls the tempo of the game while Khedira is the dynamic midfield partner next to him. Lahm bombs forward with abbadon while the LB and the 2 CBs are a bit more defensive.

[Ronnie78]

Good luck then Oescus!

I quite like the asymmetric 4-2-3-1 (the formation that comes with the game). I've been playing that lately. Plays out quite like an ordinary 4-2-3-1 in the match engine.

I've got a hard-working player at MR and a quality attacking inside-forward player at AML. It also allows you to play a DM alongside an MC. Getting some nice football from this tactic.

I also plays this formation, but I can't get the MR role to work. I would like him to be a classic winger who can challenge the opponents DL and get good crosses into the box, but I really don't see many crosses from him.

I'm not sure if my problem is in the link up play, so my MR rarely gets the ball or my instructions for the MR.

How have you set up your attacking play down right side of the pitch?

[crouchaldinho]

It's a long time since I used that formation Ronnie78. I used the 'winger' role on the TC. Make sure you have someone with good acceleration, pace and the ability to take on his man.

[Ronnie78]

It's a long time since I used that formation Ronnie78. I used the 'winger' role on the TC. Make sure you have someone with good acceleration, pace and the ability to take on his man.

Ok, I have got some better performance from my MR by increasing the tempo. It seems I get more space since the opponent have less time to close down the players (I played slow tempo). Of course the increasing tempo also make my players to do more simple mistakes that can create dangerous counter attacks.

I have seen some really beautiful play the last couple of games and the best thing is that I get goals from all kind of attacks.

[celtic2006]

I could do witrh a little help here please.

I am celtic, using the 4-2-3-1 formation. I tend to outplay many teams possesion and shots wise, but most the time its low scoring games, or sometimes i get beat with the oppositions only shot on goal.

It frustrates me as my team constantly have the ball but they tend to dally on it outside the box, waiting for an oppertunity that never arises.

I would like to know what im doing wrong as i am not the greatest tactician im probaly doing lots wrong.

Could someone point me in the right direction ?

[crouchaldinho]

Maybe with some more detail about your tactics celtic2006. How are you currently setting up?

[celtic2006]

http://s860.photobucket.com/albums/ab167/celticbhoy1967/?action=view&current=Celtic.png

http://s860.photobucket.com/albums/ab167/celticbhoy1967/?action=view&current=Celtic-2.png

Team instructions and Line up!

That is how i usually play, although Scott Brown is usually in the AM pos and Aquino gets dropped for Mcgeady out wide.

[SimoneDeCavalcante]

Both finalists today deploy the 4-2-3-1, as did Germany in third place. Hardly coincidental imo. The formation gives you (IRL) fluid attacking play (4-2-1-3) and solid defending (4-5-1).

I have yet to find a good version of this in FM2010 tho.

[cragswfc]

Both finalists today deploy the 4-2-3-1, as did Germany in third place. Hardly coincidental imo. The formation gives you (IRL) fluid attacking play (4-2-1-3) and solid defending (4-5-1).

I have yet to find a good version of this in FM2010 tho.

i fell the same ive tired so hard to make 1 but no success. in fm11 i think it will be used a lot as most people in fm 10 use 41221 formation

[cragswfc]

Both finalists today deploy the 4-2-3-1, as did Germany in third place. Hardly coincidental imo. The formation gives you (IRL) fluid attacking play (4-2-1-3) and solid defending (4-5-1).

I have yet to find a good version of this in FM2010 tho.

i fell the same ive tired so hard to make 1 but no success. in fm11 i think it will be used a lot as most people in fm 10 use 41221 formation

[cragswfc]

Both finalists today deploy the 4-2-3-1, as did Germany in third place. Hardly coincidental imo. The formation gives you (IRL) fluid attacking play (4-2-1-3) and solid defending (4-5-1).

I have yet to find a good version of this in FM2010 tho.

i fell the same ive tired so hard to make 1 but no success. in fm11 i think it will be used a lot as most people in fm 10 use 41221 formation

[crouchaldinho]

Are you guys really having a problem with 4-2-3-1?

I've had lots of success with the formation using DM, DM / AMR, AMC, AML. My favourite formation really on FM10.

Dutch using this shape throughout the World Cup.

[crouchaldinho]

Are you guys really having a problem with 4-2-3-1?

I've had lots of success with the formation using DM, DM / AMR, AMC, AML. My favourite formation really on FM10.

Dutch using this shape throughout the World Cup.

[crouchaldinho]

Wasn't sure where to post this but as it talks a lot about the 4-2-3-1, it is probably worth posting here:

Tactical review of the World Cup: http://tomwfootball.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/world-cup-2010-a-tactical-review/

8. Will 4-2-3-1 continue to dominate?

Yes. As in 2006, three of the four semi-finalists (Spain, Germany and the Netherlands) played in a 4-2-3-1, while Uruguay’s shape changed from a 3-4-1-2 to a 4-3-1-2 and ultimately a slightly lopsided 4-4-2. All the sides that reached the last four deployed two central midfielders and a pair of wide players, while the role of the central attacking midfielder in the 4-2-3-1 evolved into something more closely resembling a turbo-charged Brazilian-style number 10 such as Kaká or Zico.

[...]

10. Will there be any innovation?

Chile aside, there was nothing groundbreaking and the continued dominance of the 4-2-3-1 is unlikely to convince many national coaches to send their teams out in unconventional shapes. One interesting modification to the 4-2-3-1 was the way Brazil and Spain slanted their band of attacking midfielders, with both sides using a much more attacking player on the left (Robinho, Villa) than on the other side. Spain’s ‘Death by Tiki-taka’ passing style was the most enduring tactical approach at the World Cup, but it is practically impossible to emulate. Not since the Netherlands in 1974 has a successful side relied on so many players from one particular club and the key to the system’s efficacity was the highly developed level of understanding (the French word automatisme seems more fitting) between the Barcelona contingent in the Spanish line-up. It can only be hoped that the sterile play that dominated much of the tournament gives way to something a bit more enterprising in Brazil in 2014, when Italy, France, Holland, England, Argentina and, most notably, the hosts themselves will all be striving to re-assert their footballing identities.

[jaycar]

Are you guys really having a problem with 4-2-3-1?

I've had lots of success with the formation using DM, DM / AMR, AMC, AML. My favourite formation really on FM10.

Dutch using this shape throughout the World Cup.

I've never really dominated with the 4-2-3-1 with DM's, how do you set yours up crouchie?

[crouchaldinho]

Back four consists of one fullback, one wingback (both automatic) and two central defenders on defend duties.

In the centre, I have one anchor man or standard defensive midfielder (defend) alongside a DLP or DM (support).

The 3 unit usually comprises one winger, one inside forward (player with opposite foot to the flank that he is playing on) and an attacking midfielder (support or attack depending on the lone forward's duty).

Up front, my striker could be anything from advanced forward, DLF, complete forward and so on. I tend to stick to these three though as I like my forward to contribute more to attacks. I split the duties of my AM and ST, so if AM is attack, the ST will be support, and so on and so forth.

Had a lot of fun with 4-2-3-1. Probably my favourite formation on FM10 really if I have the players to do it.

[crouchaldinho]

Interesting analysis of the 4-2-3-1 formations that Holland and Spain played in the final on Sunday here - http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/13/spain-holland-pressing/

Holland basically played 4-2-3-1 deep in FM terms, while you could define Spain's formation as a narrow 4-2-3-1 with three AMCs.

[batata169]

Does anyone know how to set up that narrow 4231 with 3 AMC that spain used ?

[crouchaldinho]

I'm not sure how to set it up exactly as Spain used it but I can tell you what I would probably go for.

It would pretty much be the same as I detailed above. For the unit of 3, I would probably go with attacking midfielder (attack) for both AMCr and AMCl players. For the AMCc behind the striker, I'd think about using an inside forward (support or attack depending on the striker).

[jaycar]

Back four consists of one fullback, one wingback (both automatic) and two central defenders on defend duties.

In the centre, I have one anchor man or standard defensive midfielder (defend) alongside a DLP or DM (support).

The 3 unit usually comprises one winger, one inside forward (player with opposite foot to the flank that he is playing on) and an attacking midfielder (support or attack depending on the lone forward's duty).

Up front, my striker could be anything from advanced forward, DLF, complete forward and so on. I tend to stick to these three though as I like my forward to contribute more to attacks. I split the duties of my AM and ST, so if AM is attack, the ST will be support, and so on and so forth.

Had a lot of fun with 4-2-3-1. Probably my favourite formation on FM10 really if I have the players to do it.

thanks man, will give it a go

[michelco]

It does depend on the players though. For this WC Xavi was playing as the AMC behind the striker, he was playing well deep though so a Advance Playmaker on Support would probably be the most appropiate. Perhaps with a Comes deep to get the ball PPM.

I posted this in another thread but it does apply here too. The TC gives a Defensive Midfielder on Support duty quite a bit more Creative Freedom than a Deep Luying Playmaker also on Support in the very same position. This seems odd, doesn't it?

[crouchaldinho]

Michelco - from memory, I think that they actually get about the same creative freedom, don't they?

And, of course, you are absolutely right. It depends on the players that you have.

[PhroX]

I posted this in another thread but it does apply here too. The TC gives a Defensive Midfielder on Support duty quite a bit more Creative Freedom than a Deep Luying Playmaker also on Support in the very same position. This seems odd, doesn't it?

Not really. If you think about, CreFre give the player the freedom to ignore his instructions if he feels there's a better option. With a standard DM, he's more of a generalist type player, so you want him to do whatever the situation requires. Whereas, with a DLP, you want him to be sitting deep and passing the ball around, which is exactly what his instructions tell him to do, so he doesn't need CreFre.

[UAF_85]

I have always played with the 4231 assymetric, its a favourite of mine, I feel you have all the angles covered. Yet even though my philosophy was overflow and balanced, i was still struggling to break certain teams down

Perhaps it is a width issue, do people find it easier to play with narrow or wide?

[-rudi-]

Are there any successful implementations of this tactic available to download? I just can't get it to work, I find it defensively sound but I can't get the ball to my striker and barely create more than one ccc per game.

Would really like to use this shape.

[crouchaldinho]

Read through the thread -rudi-! There are plenty of suggestions about how to set-up a 4-2-3-1 system.

I've had a lot of success with the 4-2-3-1 deep, which in my opinion is the most realistic version possible in FM10. It plays out rather nicely in the match engine.

[Corkey]

Deos anyone have an idea when going about designing a 4-5-1 for a team like Hull City. Obvously they are the underdogs in almost every game so obvously a fluid attack system isn't they way to go. I was thinking about a Rigid philosphy with a counter strategy.

GK- Goalkeeper (Defend)

DR- Fullback (Defend)

DL- Fullback (Defend)

DC- Ball-Playing Defender (Defend)

DC- Ball-Playing Defender (Defend)

DMC- Defensive Midfielder (Defend)

MC- BoxToBox Midfielder (Support)

MC- BoxToBox Midfielder (Support)

AMR- Inside Forward (Attack)

AML- Inside Forward (Attack)

FC- Poacher (Attack)

Any Thoughts?

[Bruce Higham]

Over many seasons I have formed a 4231 that I am satisfied with, both with results and with the style of play. It took me a lot of experimentation to decide to keep things simple, it's the hardest thing to do isn't it? So the individual instructions for the players are only tweaked on a couple of players, more to do with players long shots/dribbling ability then anything. Over the 10 plus seasons with wolves i won promotion (I started off with an aussie team before wolves decided to have a punt with me ), won the euro cup twice, the league 4 or 5 times and the champions thrice, all with variations of the 4231, but it has taken up to last season before i had the team play what I envisaged. I play a narrow formation, with 3 attacking midfielders, although when the match situation demands it I substitute one of the attacking midfielders with a winger (the wing side i put in depends on which opposing fullback is attacking, so that I can force the opponent to back off a bit, or risk the consequences). The keeper (still akinfeev, my first big signing, pretty old now though) playing a sweeper keeper support role. He's playing this role because I want him to be an outlet for back passes from the defensive line, rather then aimless punts forwards from the full backs.

Speaking of them, for many seasons I played them as wingback roles (still the fullback positions though), however I changed them to full backs roles to keep their exuberance a bit down, and they've been twice as effective, backing up the midfield rather then crossing from the byline, thinking that they are pele and puskas combined.

The central defenders, I have a marvellous young regen that i bought for five million, now he's over seventy, as one of them, so he is a ball playing defender with a cover duty, although I have an occasional run from deep and long shots on him. The way this plays out in the ME is that when we are heavily attacking he'll come up to around 30 - 40 metres from goal and he'll let loose with a bomb, whilst his partner will be around the halfway line mark. Risky from the counter? Definitely, over the last two seasons I've probably conceded 3 or 4 goals from a very pacy forward after one of these attacks, but he has scored maybe 10-11 goals, and assisted another twenty, so I'll take those odds. His partner plays a normal defender role.

The 2 central midfielders are key, they are my recycle kings, the anchor of the teams attack and defence. The left is the regista of course, on a support duty. I tinkered with defensive duty, and with individual instructions, but simple is best at the end of the day. I have an all-round midfielder playing this role, although his preferred position is am. He's decent at tackling and passing, but his mental skills are superb, and he has excelled, particularly with recycling possession from a deep position and knowing when to have a go at a long shot. His partner, after many a long season at experimentation is central midfielder support, although usually a defensive midfield type battering ram plays here, with long shots tuned down.

Stamina, speed, strength and mental skills are key all round the park, because the best way I have found to succeed is with a high pressing, high d-line game, to compress the space of the opponent, although with a poor opponent I'll drop the d-line to open up my attacking options.

Speaking of which, the three attacking midfielders present plenty of passing opportunities forward, with the amlc and amrc (attack attacking midfielders) drifting wide, pressing the fullbacks when defending, and crossing, through balls, dribbling and shooting or simply recycling back to the cm's when attacking. I haven't got any players work well with swap positions in my time with fm10, so I don't bother, although if any players are man marked, their high creativity, and with plenty of other attacking options available, means that man marking my players just open up space for other players to go through. The central attacking midfielder, support advanced playmaker, drifts around within reason and does what you'd expect him to do, going for goal himself, through balls to the other attacking midfielders, recycling possesion, or passing delicious through balls through to the deep lying striker support.

I don't pretend that I have a crap team punching above its weight, I have an excellent team, with outstanding players, although most of the other big teams in 2022 also have great players. For many many seasons I played an attacking balanced mentality, although I have gone to a standard very fluid mentality, with high creativity, closing down, roaming and short passing, and it has resulted in beautiful, possession based, pressing, attacking football. The things that I needed before I could play this style is a very settled

,fast, fit and mentally strong team. And I just beat real Madrid 8-3

Apologies for the waffle, it's just so bloody easy to go on and on with the iPad.

[dz47]

Nice read Bruce Higham, and good to see a fellow Aussie on here!

I played with a narrow 4231 for a short while once with Arsenal, but found that my AM's, deep lying playmaker and deep lying striker tended to get into each others way all the time. Admittedly i didn't persevere with this for very long, but have you found this to be a problem with your tactic?

[Bruce Higham]

If only pim played fm:). I did notice I first went to the 3 am's, the deep playmaker and the deep striker that they would seem to like each other a bit too much, but perversely for some strange exotic reason only on attacking mentality, (I think I was playing with a semi fluid mentality at the time, that might explain it too). Since changing to a standard mentality, they seem to fill the spaces much better, both defensively and attacking. Sometimes my am centre gets marked out of the game, but I bought him for an exorbinate amount of money, and is probably the best player in the game, so I would expect that. He still gets great ratings, but even when he does get marked, the other attacking midfielders and sometimes the cm race through the hole left whilst the am is over sucking oranges near the touchline with his marker.

I never really played the global style mentality before, maybe years and years ago back in cm days, but in a high pressing, short passing, high possession team it's great. And it doesn't look like kegans teams, more like Barcelona.

[Corkey]

Deos anyone have an idea when going about designing a 4-5-1 for a team like Hull City. Obvously they are the underdogs in almost every game so obvously a fluid attack system isn't they way to go. I was thinking about a Rigid philosphy with a counter strategy.

GK- Goalkeeper (Defend)

DR- Fullback (Defend)

DL- Fullback (Defend)

DC- Ball-Playing Defender (Defend)

DC- Ball-Playing Defender (Defend)

DMC- Defensive Midfielder (Defend)

MC- BoxToBox Midfielder (Support)

MC- BoxToBox Midfielder (Support)

AMR- Inside Forward (Attack)

AML- Inside Forward (Attack)

FC- Poacher (Attack)

Any Thoughts?

Opps, sorry posted it in the wrong thread, it was late, my apoligies

[Silverx]

Got this system working fairly well at home, top of the home league table, but am abysmal away, having gone 9 away games now without winning.

I'm using a modified 4-2-3-1 deep, standard mentality. Away from home I'm also going standard but loweirng tempo/width and playing deeper and with counter attacking on. What other changes would people suggest?

[Bruce Higham]

Got this system working fairly well at home, top of the home league table, but am abysmal away, having gone 9 away games now without winning.

I'm using a modified 4-2-3-1 deep, standard mentality. Away from home I'm also going standard but loweirng tempo/width and playing deeper and with counter attacking on. What other changes would people suggest?

Its just my style of playing, and it certainly won't work with everyone and you need the right players, but the way I play away from home is actually to push higher, not drop deeper. I try and reduce the space the opponent has, close him down all over the pitch and when I have the ball try not to give it away.

I know the normal method is drop deep and hit on the break, but it never really works for me.

Just my two cents.

[Jimmy_L]

Got a very attacking 4-2-3-1 working for Sevilla. Use 2 box to box midfielders, 2 inside forwards and a poacher on his own upfront with ozil in the Am role. Start every game on overload certainly is entertaining to watch and 2nd season haven't lost a game yet.

[Wayne\'o]

I have to say i get good results with 4--2--3--1

Last season @ Norwich i finished 2nd in prem, semi final in Champions League, won the League Cup, Spuer Cup and World club cup, had over 5 players scoring double figures.. I guess rating's for som eplayers arnt that great but then again the way i set my team up they never are high..

My only problem which i'm workin gon is the lone striker and how best to play him.. i just can't get him to score freely as i can using a 4-4-2.. tip's woul dbe nice?

[dankrzyz]

The AMC often opted to stay behind the FC instead of making runs beyond him, which is what I intended him to do, but he did link up well with the team when dropping deep. Often when he did make a run into the box though, he did get a CCC at goal so that will be what I'll be aiming for him to do more often next season.

This is the situation I'm working on right now with my AMC and FC. What wideplay settings do you all use for the AMC and FC, for those of you who want the AMC to make attacking runs, playing off the FC(support)? Move the FC into channels, opening up the middle for the AMC? Or hold the FC in the middle, and let the AMC move through the channels? Another layer: how do you use roaming in conjunction with these settings?

[mojojojo101]

I used to use 4-4-2 exscusively but i recently started a new game and wanted to try and manage my tactics alot more to suit how i like to play in rel life and on the game, currently I thinkI have got this tactic working preety well for me I think on fm '09 although thier are some things i'd like to get working better. This is the formation I play normally; (I'm Man Utd btw)

Asenjo

Opare Vidic Fazio Evra

Veloso Camacho

Ronaldo Anderson Fleck

Laurito

The main change I make when I play one of the other very dominant forces in my game, basically just Arsenal or Barcelona, I will swap out Camacho for Sandro and Laurito goes out for Rooney. Also Left Wing is currently in a bit of limbo as I have both Assulin and Fleck who are both very good, I normally chose Fleck though because he tends to cut in a bit more and get behind full backs o set upn chances for himself and others.

Was trying to get a formation to dominate possesion which isn't really working however my formation is preety solid

and opponents rarely create chances.

Goalkeeper; Curently set as just basi keeper instructions, nothing special. Toying with setting his passing to short though.

Full Backs; Need high Stamina, set them as reasonably attacking, cross often from byline and run with ball medium

Centre Backs; Set quite defensively (the most defensive level of normal on the slider if that makes sense), short passing, ver low cretive freedom

Veloso/Sandro; Quite Defensive mentality, passing slightly towards short, high creative freedom, Closing down all over the pitch. Sandro has lower creative freedom though.

Camacho; Plays as a more box-to-box player, Mentallity more attacking than the other CM with more direct passing.

AMC; I use this player as a link up man; my 2 AMC's Anderson and Kroos also play in CM unlike some other AMC's and this keeps them, in my experience from drifting to high up the pitch. Keep his mentality very attacking (the highest on the pitch), reasonably high creative freedom, through balls often + PPM for killer balls often, run with ball medium, forward runs often, long shots medium

Wingers; Preety regular wingers tbh, Ronaldo gets more freedom than my other wingers. Im not sure why but my wingers do tend to get back preety well.

Striker; Also preety regular centre forward, works better with a bigger forward but i didn't find that using him as a target man made much difference.

Positives;

My team although sometimes may not have, a high percentage of possesion but they limit the opposition to few attempts on goal by wining the ball back in midfield, They also use the possesion they do have well. I tend to keep alot of clean sheets and weaker teams, I really hit them hard at times (I beat Hoffenheim 8-0 in the Champions League). I score alot of goals(100+ in the league last year without corner cheat) and thier are alot of players getting these goals, had I think 9 players who had scored more than 15 goals last season and at least 6 more had more than ten.

Negatives; (maybe someone could offer some advice on how to fix these)

I'd like to have more possesion, Is it realistic to get 60%ish possesion (at home) without turning into Spain, having huge amounts of sideways passes and not really going anywhere.

My strikers don't tend to score as many as they did when i played a 4-4-2. It may be to do with the tactic or that I tend to rotate them alot (Laurito; 24 Rooney; 21 Cardozo; 22), I would like them to get more but not sure how with out abusing corners...

My goalkeepr tends to give the ball away to easily, has anyone tried having him pass short to CB/FB's all the time, does this cause more problems than it prevents with on rushing opposing forwards??

[crouchaldinho]

Some quite good information on 4-2-3-1 here - http://worldsoccer.about.com/od/skillsandtactics/a/4-2-3-1.htm

The 4-2-3-1 Formation

A look at the 4-2-3-1 formation and how it is implemented

By Stewart Coggin, About.com Guide

The 4-2-3-1 formation came to prominence in Spain in the 1990s and early 2000s and is now used by many teams throughout the world.

The two players in front of the back-four, known as the ‘doble pivot’ (double pivot) in Spain, give support to the defense, with one player breaking up opposition attacks, and the other putting more emphasis on distributing the ball to the attacking players.

The formation should ensure teams are not out-numbered in midfield, and with so many advanced players, there is great flexibility.

Striker in the 4-2-3-1 Formation

In this formation, the striker should not lack support as he has three players whose job it is to supply him with ammunition. If the players behind the main striker are of genuine quality, the formation can be a dream for a striker as he should receive plenty of balls into the penalty area.

The 4-2-3-1 formation can accommodate a big target man who can hold the ball up and lay it off for the oncoming midfielders, or a more nimble striker capable of running on to balls and finishing chances.

It is important that the front-man is a strong physical specimen as, despite the support from midfield, he will need to hold off defenders as he looks to carve out chances for himself or teammates.

Attacking Midfielders in the 4-2-3-1 Formation

The three attacking midfielders can be hard for opposition defenses to pick up, especially if they interchange and run in from deeper positions.

There is usually one central creative force, playing behind the striker. When Deportivo La Coruna and Valencia won Spanish League titles in the first half of the last decade under Javier Irureta and Rafael Benitez respectively, Juan Valeron (Deportivo) and Pablo Aimar (Valencia) both featured behind the striker, their subtle skills creating havoc in opposition defenses.

To either side of the playmaker, there are two wider players whose job it is to create chances from the flanks as well as cutting in.

There is also an onus on these three players to help out defensively, particularly those playing in the wide roles. When on the back foot, these players should be helping their full-backs, and the formation will look more like a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1.

Defensive Midfielders in the 4-2-3-1 Formation

It is imperative that the two players have positional sense in order to protect the back four properly. One of these two is generally more of a tackler, with the other concentrating on distribution. In that title-winning Valencia team, David Albelda and Ruben Baraja formed an excellent partnership. Albelda did much of the tackling, while Baraja was more offensive. The pair complimented eachother superbly.

Xabi Alonso is the perfect example of a player whose job it is to defend, but also to open up the opposition with his cultured range of passing.

Having two players in front of the back four provides a platform on which the team’s more attacking players can create chances.

Full-backs in the 4-2-3-1 Formation

It is the job of full-backs to defend against opposition attackers, particularly wingers. It is important that they stop the supply line for the striker, so must be strong in the tackle.

Pace is key if they are up against a speedy winger, while they will also be expected to help defend against opposition set-pieces so good heading ability is also required.

A team's full-backs can also be a major attacking weapon. A full-back with pace, power and good crossing ability is a real asset on the flank as they can stretch the other team's wide players and provide ammunition for strikers.

Central Defenders in the 4-2-3-1 Formation

The job of the central defenders is consistent with other formations such as 4-4-2 and 4-5-1. They are there to repel opposition attacks by tacking, heading and marking players (employing either zonal or man-marking tactics).

Center-backs can often be seen going up for set-pieces in the hope of heading in a cross or a corner, but their primary role is to stop the opposition strikers and midfielders.

Strength and concentration are two important attributes when playing in this position.

[michelco]

I don't see Strength as vital for the Striker though. If he's mobile enough (and with the instructions to allow him to be mobile) then he can be weak as a squirrel

[pleming]

So I've dabbled with 4231 and I always end up back with the 4231 asymmetric shape, similar to the generic one in the game. I tend to take the FB on the side of the Attacking Winger and push him up to the wingback slot, or at the very least set him as a wingback in the fullback slot.

I set up with this when I was winning (I think they went for 86 points) a ton of games in the prem with Everton... it was like 2016 or 2017.... Also, I set myself up as a Belgian former international with Dutch citizenship and Ajax as my favorite team... hence the heavy Belgian/Dutch flavor- also, every player on the pitch is set to long shots rarely and zonal marking.

GK- L Bailey Goalkeeper normal

FBr- D Gosling Fullback defend (with fwd runs to mixed)

CBr- M Fellaini Ball Playing Defender Stopper (closing down a few higher, forward runs often)

CBl- M Richards Central Defender Cover

WBl- L Baines Wingback attack (cut inside)

DMl- S Defour Defensive midfielder support (roams yes)

MCr- J Rodwell Box2Box support

RM- Regen Englishman Winger attack (cut inside)

AMlc- J Shelvey Adv Playmaker support

AMl- G Wijnaldum Inside Fwd attack (crosses rarely dribbles often)

STr- R Lukaku Target Man attack

I had Shelvey as the playmaker, Lukaku as the targetman set to mixed (he's got speed, and did well chasing balls into space. I didn't want to just have him jumping about and heading the ball everywhere).

Essentially, Baines' runs up the field were covered well by Defour who at times would look like the left back, and Baines as a result of cutting in looked like the Mid Center parter of Rodwell... The wings would cut in giving me a large presence attacking the box- I usually shouted 'work ball into box' and with long shots low for all, it was short passing build up type of team....

The defense was the key for me- I moved Fellaini full time to CB when his pace started to dwindle in his late 20's... He was UNREAL as a stopper- his positioning, and other mental attributes made him ideal for it. He stepped up and looked like the holder when in possession... It was nice- I saw a back 3 of Defour, Richards and Gosling when we were in the opponent's box, with Fellaini up in front of them... it was pretty to see. I doubt it'd have worked so well if it weren't for Richard's speed, though. He was very key for me being able to pull this off. Gosling and Defour were both just positionally aware and responsible. Rarely did I see 'that goal was Gosling's fault!'... Rodwell was a beast running up and down.

For what it's worth- the Re-gen was about 22 this season... he was a stud- when he was about 26, he was maybe the best player I've ever seen in the game. Not super fast- 15/15 acce/pace, but amazing mental and technical attributes. He also wasn't bad at marking tackling (he's the reason I played this system- he was too good at defending for me to push him up too high, so my typical 433 became this odd shaped 4231.

The attackers worked great together- the AMC and AML were next to each other and the Striker was on the right slot... this resulted in the opposing RCB stepping up to mark the AMC and Lukaku cutting across and getting a ball to his feet by the AMCL or AML... it was uncanny how often that worked. I did seem to struggle when the opponents put 2 DM's in- as one would mark the AMCL- at those times, I'd slide him up to ST and play him in a Deep Lying Forward Support role. The same effect was acheived. The DM moved up looking for Baines or Defour, meaning the opposing RCB would follow the Deep Lying Forward opening holes for Lukaku.

Anyhow- just thought I'd share... it's a wierd shaped 4231, but it played like the real thing for me. Sadly, Fellaini got a career ending (for the most part) injury at the start of the next season, and eventually, Wijnaldum was a baby and wanted to move to Madrid and the Re-Gen wanted to move on, so I had to adapt my formation to suit the new personnel. It was my first Prem Title, I think, with this save... I went on to win a few more in the 20's, but this was the most dominant team I had.

I especially liked how it morphed into a 3115 in attack... similar to the shape here on Zonal Marking http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/22/is-the-sweeper-set-for-a-return-to-prominence/ although I got to that in a different way- I think that was my goal at the time- to find that attacking shape... My attacking 5 was AML, AMCL, ST, B2B, RM, with the LWB in front of the RCB in the holding roles... then the DML, LCB, and RB as the back three...

I should mention that Leighton Baines was immense here- he had about 60-80 passes completed in every game, his charts were awesome to look at. Like a P shape. Lots of passes in the back left, and as he moved up, you could see his presence in the center of the pitch...

[pleming]

One other note- I'm not sure this works in other versions of the game, or in 11... I've found that in real life, I'm a believer in the 'spare man' in back... be it a def mid (busquets) or third cb (mexico/chile in wc)... but in FM10, the two strikers don't both stay up, as one is always deep lying and one is always advanced... easy to deal with with two cbs and a def mid, regardless of the tactic... which is why i was so cavalier with my stopper cb just bombing up the pitch and having freedom to close high up the pitch.

And as with all tactics, I think mine was ideally suited to the skills of my squad. fellaini was the top mental attributed player in the game that i could find at the time. he knew when to step up, when to sit back, etc. and having a speedy center back with high anticipation and tackling and strength helped tremendously. defour was another key- he was smart, brave, aware, etc. he covered for my lwb excellently... i hardley ever saw both of them up the pitch together. if baines ran, he sat back. if baines was sitting, he'd slide up. it was fun to watch, actually.

[Gargamel]

Currently using a 4-2-3-1 with my Hercules side in the Spanish Adelante.

gk- defend

lb/rb- both set to automatic

cb- one set to defend the other to cover

cm- one set to advanced playmaker (support) the other set to centre mid (support)

am- Attacking mid (support

wingers- the left set to inside forward (attack) the right set to winger (attack)

St- Poacher (attack)

While I'm happy with the formation and the results I've been getting I'm realistic enough to know that I'll get my ass handed to me in La Liga (whould I get promoted) as it's far too attack minded. The problem is I'm loathe to play anyone in the middle who isn't Farinos or Tiago Gomes who are both exceptional players for this division. My wide players are also pretty impressive for this league (former Spanish international Rufete and veteran winger Sendoa) but are getting on a bit so I'm considering moving to a 4-1-2-1-2 if I manage to go up. I'll be disappointed if I go down that road as I really want to get some success with a tactic that utilises wingers but I'm resigned to the fact that in FM10 wingerless tactics reign supreme.

[Elrithral]

I’ve been trying to develop a 4-2-3-1 of my own over the last few days and thought I’d share it with you, especially because I’ve come across one or two minor problems that you might be able to help me with.

		GK

DR	DC		DC	DL


DM		DM

	MC

IFR				IFL

	ST

Above is a sketch of my formation and team instruction, you’ll notice that the 4-2-3-1 is almost a 4-5-1 with a central midfielder rather than an attacking central midfielder. The reason for this is that I’m conducting my experiment as Milan and wanted to try and build something similar to the Spain formation with Pirlo in a central (less advanced) playmaker role like Xavi.

Philosophy - Fluid

Strategy - Attacking

Passing Style - Short

Creative Freedom - Default

Closing Down - Press More

Tackling - Hard

Marking - Zonal

Crossing - Default

Roaming - Default

My team instructions are set to provide a pretty creative style of play with Arsenal-esque short passing (I increased tempo btw) and Inter-esque hard tackling and pressing. My thinking behind this was all about pressure with and without the ball, I want to move forward at speed and I want to defend at speed.

Player Instructions

Goalkeeper – Defend – Dida

Perhaps my biggest problem with this position is Dida’s consistency. I have played a few practice saves and he’s let me down on various occasions. The only change I made to his default settings was to shift him to a defensive mentality with minimal creative freedom and have a defender collect the ball from him.

Full Backs R/L – Auto – Zambrotta/Oddo

I’ve had problems with full backs consistency since FM10 came out and I don’t expect this formation to be any different, so I’m trying to make the best of a bad situation. Defaults were adjusted so that they would move forward sometimes, run with ball rarely, have little creative freedom, a defensive mentality and cross the ball often from deep.

Defensively it hasn’t been too bad, speed and age seem to be my main problems and I can’t do anything about that with a £13m budget. I’m pleased with the support they are providing my inside forwards, though delivery has left a lot to be desired.

Centre Backs – Defend – Onyewu/Nesta

I’m going to hold back on commenting too much on these guys because I’ve followed some advice I saw crouchaldinho give about tight zonal marking. I was having problems with balls played in behind defenders and I thought this was because they weren’t man marking they were marking too tight, I’ll give crouchy’s guidance a go. In my latest trial they are averaging 7+ each.

Defensive Midfielder – Defend/Support – Gattuso/Ambrosini

Ambrosini is set to play right in front of the defence, closing down everything in his own half and protecting Nest etc from those pesky through balls. Gattuso is set to do a similar job with a smidge more creative freedom and a normal, rather than defensive, mentality.

They’ve done well, holding attacks back and limiting the opposition to long shots. However, this is FM and we all know that eventually some of those long shots are gonna go in. I’d like to see them control the midfield a little better though, they hold the ball up well, but can get in caught in possession a little too often for my liking (especially Ambrosini)

Advanced Playmaker – Support – Pirlo

In the middle of the park, manning the centre circle and spraying the passes forward and controlling the game. So far so good, he’s got himself on the scoresheet a couple of times and is finding plenty of space to pick passes out wide. I set his passing to mixed rather than short, he’s good enough to make up his own mind.

Inside Forward R/L – Attack – Ronaldinho/Pato

I left their settings at default with the exception of long shots and crossing, I don’t want them wasting possession in the final third with hopeful shots and crosses, I want them playing it in to someone in the box or getting into the box themselves.

Advanced Forward – Attack – Borriello

I had started out playing him as a Target Man because I thought his strength and ability in the air would work well with those settings, but I found that he spent far too much of his time on the edge of the box. I’ve only played one game with him as an advanced forward and he scored, so fingers crossed I should see an improvement as far as goal threats go.

I’ll update later with some screenshots etc and let you know how I’m getting on with results (3-1 wins against Udinese and Parma so far). If anyone has any advice or thinks there is anything wrong/that I could be doing better then feel free to post and help me get Milan playing like Spain.

[crouchaldinho]

Looking good El. Only a couple of initial thoughts from me.

First of all, have you thought about having one of your fullbacks on a wingback role instead? As you've got two inside forwards, your play might be quite narrow coming forward. I think it's calling out for an overlapping fullback down one of the flanks to add some extra width and another dimension to your play. Could one of your fullbacks offer this?

My second thought is about the free roles. Have you thought about setting 'more roaming'? I say this because, as far as I can remember, the defaults for the inside forwards are that they do not roam. Same with the advance playmaker. If you use 'more roaming', it'll at least force the wide players to roam more often, so you'll have a roaming front three across the strategies, which again will add another dimension in attack.

I'll be interested to follow your progress with this tactic.

[Elrithral]

Interesting you should mention wingbacks, I had been toying with that idea because it feels like i'm wasting Zambrotta's attacking ability, especially considering he's playing on the same side as Ronaldinho (who doesnt cross from the byline). Shifting Oddo to a more defensive role behind Pato who is more adept as a winger than Ronaldinho would make sense.

Roaming inisde forwards is definitely something i'd consider, but I don't think I would be willing to set a 'more roaming' team instruction because i'd be worried about losing my defensive stability.

[crouchaldinho]

Interesting you should mention wingbacks, I had been toying with that idea because it feels like i'm wasting Zambrotta's attacking ability, especially considering he's playing on the same side as Ronaldinho (who doesnt cross from the byline). Shifting Oddo to a more defensive role behind Pato who is more adept as a winger than Ronaldinho would make sense.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

Roaming inisde forwards is definitely something i'd consider, but I don't think I would be willing to set a 'more roaming' team instruction because i'd be worried about losing my defensive stability.

I don't think you'd lose any defensive stability. Looking at your set-up, I think it would be just the inside forwards and the advance forward who would roam.

In my 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-1-1 tactics, I often have four players roaming (the two wide players, the withdrawn striker (AM) and the forward). I don't concede much but then I do use 'rigid' philosophy and therefore use the roaming to add more 'fluidity' to the attack.

[Terk]

As I posted in the favourite TC formation thread, I've often had problems with 4-2-3-1 deep because I find that the attacking a defending units of my team are 'disconnected', there's no one bridging the gap between the two. I'm not working on one specifically right now, but I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on the subject.

I've always preferred the deep version of the formation as I've felt it's a more realistic interpretation of the formation than having 2 MCs, which seems an overly attacking shape to my eyes. I've tended to play it with a rigid philosophy and, like crouchy, allow the front four to roam more to make them more difficult for the opposition defence to pick up.

I like the Anchor Man/DLP split (the Mascherano/Alonso partnership) between my two DMs but too often I find a lot of space between the defensive six and the attacking four. Using my DR and DL in wingback roles rather than as full backs helps to a degree, but I often have a real problem getting good performances out of my AMC and my DLP, no matter the class of the player in those positions. The only way I found round it was to split my DMs asymmetrically, moving the DLP up to an MC position, but even that had limitations in how much it helped.

If any of the brighter tactical brains around here have any suggestions for me to try then I'd be happy to have them.

[crouchaldinho]

At what point in the play do you feel that they are disconnected?

Any thoughts on the AMC as a support duty and the striker as attack, meaning the AM should hang back slightly, rather than getting into the box all of the time (which can, I've found, have a negative impact on ratings)?

Having the DLP should mean that he will show for the ball and move forward with the attack, so I don't think there is anything specifically we can do with him. And the AM will drop in to the midfield when defending. So that's my only thought for the moment.

Maybe a couple of screenshots of what you mean might help.

[Terk]

Don't have the game handy at the moment (on my laptop, FM is on my desktop) so no screenshots for now, but it's a problem that comes up when we win the ball back in the defensive third of the pitch. The DLP will, as you say, show himself for the ball but he is given very little in the way of options for his pass. Wingbacks help, that gets the DLP giving the ball to his wingback, moving forward and taking a return pass, but too often my DLP is then forced into trying to give too long a pass, of which the success rate is naturally lower. That's where his lower performance ratings come from, I'm pretty certain that the problem lies with the AM.

Interesting point on having the AMC on support. I tend to go with attack, with the striker on support as I like the sight on an AM bursting into the box (can you tell I'm a Liverpool fan?) but I'll give it a prolonged go the other way round. I find that having the striker on support generally gives my inside forwards more space to attack in the opposition backline, but I'm sure that's a problem I can overcome.

I'll report back to you later on, Crouchy. Cheers for the advice.

[crouchaldinho]

Interestingly enough, when you're using a lone forward - presumably Torres as a Complete Forward? - there isn't too much difference in terms of instructions between support and attack duties. You'll still see a lot of the same behaviours. Especially as you are also using Rigid philosophy.

It's hard translating FM terms into real life, and vice-versa, but I'd suggest giving Gerrard a go on a support duty might be worth a try. Gerrard does tend to hang back a bit more and sit in the hole crafting out chances for others in real life, as much as he does get into the box (but it's usually late runs). He's very much a withdrawn forward but at the same time he plays the role like a midfielder and not a second striker, if that makes sense. Think of Gerrard shooting from range, or picking a pass, spreading the ball or arriving late in the box to finish. And think of how deep he can come when defending. That's the kind of thing you want.

Putting the AM on an attack duty tends to see that player in the box way too early in my opinion. What you really want is him hanging back in the hole waiting for a pass, making things happen and making late runs into the box. I'm pretty sure this is going to be your problem, and reducing the forward runs could help by making the build up a little more patient.

If you want to stick with the support/attack front partnership, you could try Advanced Playmaker attack for Gerrard. That would give him mixed forward runs and make him hang back a bit more but it seems a waste not to have him roaming and he's not much of a dribbler really.

I'd probably have the Liverpool team set out like this (assuming you have an Alonso replacement):

GK Default

Wingback auto, Defender defend, Defender defend, fullback auto

Anchor man defend, DLP support

Winger attack, Attacking mid support, Inside forward attack

Complete forward attack

That's more or less based on the Liverpool team I imagine you'd start with on FM10 by the way minus the DLP support!