herne79

I'll try one last time. Data is meaningless without context, hence the quote. It doesn't matter which team or which players the sims are run with. The issue is testing the tactical systems in the way they are being used and then the data being interpreted as apparently showing that gegenpress only is OP. Because of how the tactics are being used in this test, the only thing the results are actually showing is that the default gegenpress tactic tends to work out of the box better than the other default tactics. This is not news - it's well known. And the reason the gegenpress default works better out of the box than the other default tactics is because they're not designed to work out of the box. They're designed as a starting point for us managers to tweak and change as required if we see issues and/or depending on the playing staff we have. SI have told us that and your presented data perfectly demonstrates it. Gegenpress can indeed be "OP". Pretty much any other tactical system can also be "OP" but they tend to be harder to set up and maintain. If you still don't believe me, read some of the guides and articles on the tactics forum. I'm also currently using the tactic below and smashing up the Premier League with West Ham. However it's not a plug and play tactic (like gegenpress systems tend to be) and requires my attention during matches to make small tweaks if needed. ie., it's not as easy to use as gegenpress but could still be called "overpowered".

Lies, damned lies and statistics. Mark Twain. In other words statistics (your "facts") can be spun in different ways and tend to be meaningless without context. I'm giving you some context above - it's not a good comparison for the reasons given and perpetuates the myth. TL;DR - I'm not saying gegenpress is not overpowered - I'm saying pretty much any tactical system can be "overpowered". Gegenpress just tends to be easier to set up and maintain than other systems which is actually what your presented data shows. Easy is not the same thing as overpowered .

Sorry but this sort of thing is misleading and just adds further fuel to the “gegenpress is OP” dumpster fire, as some of the comments above demonstrate. The system’s default tactics - what you are using here - are not and never have been designed to be used out of the box, which is why this data is misleading. Some are more straightforward to use than others for sure, but all of them are perfectly capable of being effective if they are tweaked - which is what SI intends. It’s also worth noting that not all of those systems are designed to be used for 90 minutes each and every match. Some are designed as a starting point to help address specific situations during a match, so trying to use them for 90 mins every match is just plain wrong. It has never been SI’s intention to present us with a set of complete plug and play tactics. Not even the AI uses them as such - the AI tweaks and changes them (if they use them during a match). So if you compare them as you have done then of course you are going to get differences. Gegenpress is not - and never has been - “overpowered”. This myth has snowballed over several iterations of FM to the point where we’re at today. Gegenpress is nothing more than, generally speaking, easier to set up and maintain than other tactical systems. And even then there are plenty of people out there who struggle to get gegenpress systems working. Spend a few minutes in the tactics forum and you’ll see for yourselves - plenty of threads over the years of people asking for help with gegenpress and plenty of other threads and guides showing effective non-gegenpress systems. So you’re right when you say if people want more of a challenge to not use gegenpress but this kind of data presented is fundamentally flawed and just adds to the cries of “gegenpress is OP”. Any tactical system can be “OP”, it just comes down to the amount of time and effort people are willing to put into it.

Not for me. Areola conceded 40 in the league (33 appearances) for me last season as we finished 5th. Only 4 teams conceded fewer. This season he's conceded 10 in 11 league appearances as we sit 3rd. Possibly, however it could have more to do with the combination of your defensive system + the defenders & midfielders you are using. Keepers are your last line of defence - if they are having to make lots of saves that's usually in indication there is something wrong somewhere else.

Just as a follow up to this (I also get 77000 season ticket holders - real life = 55000): At the end of season 1 the Board advise they are going to build a new stadium to increase capacity due to ticket demand (see below). Then at the beginning of the following season the matchday and ticket revenue chart shows West Ham way out in front by a comfortable margin. I guess this is all related to the season ticket holders. As a West Ham fan thanks for the extra income (is it actually received or just a report glitch?) however I shudder to think what a new stadium would cost us!

Yeh ok. You could perhaps focus a little more on core skills but developing well rounded players as you are with a bias towards technical skills should be fine.

I also have a West Ham “Academy of Football” save going. One thing I’ll add - try to get a Head of Youth Development who not only has a great personality but also favours both your chosen style of play and formation. The HoYD can influence not only newgen personalities but also the type of newgen player created during your annual youth intake. It’s not guaranteed to happen but you should stand a bit more of a chance of generating young technical players if your HoYD favours a technical game rather than, say, a direct style of play. Not the end of the world if you can’t get one. Also, if you really want to maximise your chances, think about taking over both General and Individual training for the U18s team at least. That way you can tailor everything towards the technical style of play you want. If that all sounds too much, at the very least take control yourself of Individual training for all 3 squads. Finally try to get the Board to upgrade all facilities, Youth Recruitment and Junior coaching asap. In my save my Board agreed to all first season except Junior coaching, although they did approach me at the end of the season to ask if it would be a good idea. Thanks Dave, if only I’d thought of that . Oh - and if your save goes like mine did the Board may have a “small” surprise for you at the end of the season…

I received this message at the end of season 1. Because an essentially free 62500 capacity stadium just isn't enough and apparently we like mountains of debt (I shudder to think how much this'll cost)... Joking apart I think the issue here is West Ham sold 77000 season tickets at the start of the season against a backdrop of a 62500 capacity expandable to 66000. As far as I'm aware clubs don't oversell season tickets. For reference, in real life West Ham sold 55000 season tickets this year. I don't have a save from the start of the game showing the season tickets sold however I've started 3 different West Ham saves and all 3 sold 77000 season tickets (I only finished the first season with this current save).

As a West Ham fan this made me smile. (We have a player called Conor Coventry).

It’s certainly doable (and pretty much always has been). I just took relegation tipped Plymouth Argyle into the Prem via the Playoffs using a 4141 formation with a Balanced mentality, low block and no additional pressing. We average something like 35% possession. Sure we got clobbered a couple of times but defence is pretty solid. Think about the formation you use (something deep such as a 4141) in combination with tactical settings which don’t over do the defensive side of things. If you set up too deep with lots of settings to exaggerate an overly passive defence you’ll invite too much pressure and fail. In my experience that’s where people tend to go wrong - they set up too passively by over use of defensive tactical settings.

100% agree with this. Being able to play gegenpress with a bottom 4 club or even a non-league club shouldn't really be possible. SI like to use the term "realism" and that's not realistic imo. However, there is a flip side to consider - a fair proportion of the user base just want to play, have fun and win stuff. Nothing wrong with that at all and good luck to them. So lots of people have neither the time nor the inclination to use anything other than "easy mode" (for want of a better phrase), so would it really be fair to deny them this by nerfing gegenpress? What about buffing other play styles instead? If other play styles get buffed, where does that leave the rest of us who want more of a challenge? There's a balancing act here and I don't envy SI that particular tightrope they have to negotiate.

There’s a whole forum with lots of guides, articles and tips on how to be successful with lots of different play styles, gegenpress or otherwise. imo it’s not that gegenpress is “overpowered” - it’s just easier to set up and maintain than other styles of play. Other styles of play have always been (and continue to be) just as successful but they tend to be harder to set up effectively and maintain. If all styles of play were just as easy the game would get boring pretty quickly. Things can certainly be improved of course, but if anyone wants to develop their own style then check the Tactics forum.

You’re not wrong, and that word is the key here - what you describe is the easy way of doing things. Not everyone wants to play that way however. It’s still (and always has been) perfectly possible to be every bit as successful using different styles of play. It’s just harder to do, which is why a lot of these YouTubers you mention don’t do it. So it’s not really about the game being broken or not. If you want every play style to be just as “easy” to set up and win stuff then the game will get pretty boring very quickly. That’s not to say there is no room for improvement - there absolutely is - but just consider the satisfaction you might get if you are just as successful using a different play style to your favoured one ,

Devil's advocate: 1) What level of coaching badge are you asking for and how does that level compare realistically to a National North manager? 2) What's in it for them? The Board may just be thinking that if they fund the course you may turn around at the end and say "cheers, thanks for the course, I'm off to bigger and better things" and so the club see no benefit even though they paid for it. Not trying to justify things, and responses could be better, but there is a possible flip side here.

Not sure if I'm about to help here or just confuse you more, but I'll give it a go . First point: That's because your assistant is a computer program and follows a set of programmed rules. It may be something you want to check on if your team are struggling, but such advice tends to lack context - especially around your chosen style of play. For example, I could put together a possession heavy tactic using the Attacking Mentality with predominately Support Duty roles and still see my assistant telling me I don't have enough attack duty players. Using more attack duty players in that scenario could destroy my chosen style of play. Context. Which brings me onto the second point: As above, this will largely depend on your chosen style of play. To continue the example, a Possession based system using the attacking mentality would probably utilise loads of support duty roles; whereas a Possession based system using the Counter mentality would probably use less support duty roles and more attacking duty roles. This is because Mentality sets a baseline for how attack minded or defence minded your players might be, which filters down into individual player mentality. If you open a player's role in the Tactics screen you'll see their individual Mentality at the top - that will change as you change your team's Mentality. And finally, my 3rd point: All the above is just one half of the coin, the other half being the players themselves - their attributes and Traits. Different players will play the same role/duty differently purely because of their attributes and Traits. To continue the Possession example above, who would be better to use the same Possession tactic: Man City or Burnley? That's because Man City's players are better equipped via their attributes and Traits to effectively use the system. Further, lets say you have 2 identical players but one with the Trait to get forward often, the other without. Regardless of which team Mentality you select the player with the Trait is going to be more attack minded, which could fill one of the "gaps" in attack duty players if your assistant says you don't have enough. TL;DR - the answer to your question is it depends. It depends on the play style you wish to use and the players you have at your disposal.

Lots to digest here and experiment with. Big thanks for sharing .

From the Amazon UK Store (last bullet point), plus Amazon is on the approved suppliers list. I didn't buy from there so can't confirm.

2game (on the official Sega partner list) currently have it, with early access/beta for £35.98 (plus a cheeky little 3% payment fee if you pay by Paypal). And if you haven't used them before you can get an additional 5% off your first purchase with code PMX5 (only today apparently - 19th October). I can confirm this works, just paid £34.18 and am now enjoying early access. (I'm assuming the code can work for anyone - it popped up as I went to close the page and before I created an account). You will have to create an account with them (the game key gets sent to the account). The game key ONLY mentions Steam, no idea if it's valid on other platforms.

Personally I think we should be challenging for a European spot, not just top half. That may be a too ambitious given we finished 14th last season and sold our best player over the summer, but I like the players we brought in and so far at least seem to be right for how Moyes wants to play. The Board clearly have ambitions in that direction anyway. Sure I’d like good football as well, but at the end of the day it’s results that count. It’s still early days (wasn’t it Bill Shankly who used to say he never looks at the league table until November?) and we’ve made a promising start, but as a fan I know not to count the chickens too soon.

Read my post above. If you use an editor then sure, but in game that cannot happen.

No, it isn't. Through natural player development (ie., without using an editor) players cannot improve their weaker foot beyond "reasonable" (9, 10 or 11 on a 1-20 scale). This means that in reality hardly any ability is used in developing a weaker foot. Sure, if you use an editor to change a player from 1 to 20 it may use a lot of ability, but it's impossible without using an editor.

Personally I’m kind of amazed, he seems to have rediscovered his Everton form. I think if we hadn’t won the europa last season he’d have been out. While we may not be playing in the “West Ham way” (whatever that is as SAF once quipped) we’re getting the results. We seem to have 2 main strategies - pure highly disciplined, pressure soak, hit on the counter with pace and flair against equal or better sides; or control the game, apply constant pressure with intensity against weaker teams. There’s nothing revolutionary about it, Moyes just seems to have found the key to unlock it. Honestly that video does a really good job of analysing. I think Ward-Prowse has been central to this and an inspired buy (I’ve been buying him for my West Ham saves since FM16, about time they took notice lol). Interesting you mention Haller and Scamacca, both strikers. We’re short in that area and Antonio isn’t getting any younger. On paper they’d seem to fit the bill of what Moyes looks for - big, powerful, able to hold up the ball - but they clearly didn’t fit. I get the feeling Scamacca may have been homesick, no idea what went wrong with Haller. Will be interesting to see who we bring in next. Osimhen? As for your final point, the club clearly has ambitions of a European nature (as do the fans) but we’re also pretty pragmatic and don’t get carried away. There’s an old joke - “what do Christmas decorations and West Ham have in common? They both come down after Christmas” - so personally I’d like a progressive approach rather than instant win followed by more relegation battles. However, it’s been 7 years since we moved into the London Stadium with the last 3 all seeing European competition so that progression seems to be with us now. I’d just like to see it sustained. We’re not a top 4 side but I see no reason why we can’t continue pushing for a European spot.

I had a PM from @Jimmy Wong asking if I'd be able to update them as I made them. I advised as I'm no longer active on the forums (and no longer a Mod) he'd be best off asking the current T&T Mods. @Johnny Ace @Rashidi Seems a little drastic to remove them all?