433 FM24

[GSTG]

Has someone made a solid and successful 433 formation with mid table team that has not tons of instructions and gegenpress style ? If so please show us

 

[Overmars]

General things I have noticed from using a 4-3-3 on FM24:

1. The AML/AMR spots work better in support roles. Relying on them as main goalscorers is unwise. They work better in creative roles in FM24, dribbling and playing cutbacks to scorers in the middle.
2. At least one of the MCs should be given a CM(a) (or maybe MEZ(a)) role. These attacking central midfielders will score as many goals as the AML/AMR will, often latching onto the end of cutbacks.
3. The DM can be a HB if the wingbacks are particularly aggressive or a DLP otherwise. High decisions and composure are vital here.
4. The wingbacks should be WB(s) or WB(a). You can go with CWB if you are really aggressive or FB if you aspire to be dull. I have messed around with inverted wingbacks, but I would only do this if playing a winger role on the same side as the IWB.
5. I find an AF(a) for striker works best. In principle, a DLF or F9 role should be fine, but the AML/AMR players just don't score enough to make this approach reliable enough in FM.
6. As for team instructions, the usual gegenpress instructions work great. Even when attempting to keep a lead late in matches, I will still press high and try to score insurance goals rather than sit back and hope to kill time. Again, that's an FM thing more than a football tactical thing.
7. You will also be able to win lots of corners, so make sure you have a good corner delivery specialist and 1-2 players with very high jumping to head home near post corners.

Edited March 8 by Overmars

[Cloud9]

On 26/02/2024 at 08:58, GSTG said:

Has someone made a solid and successful 433 formation with mid table team that has not tons of instructions and gegenpress style ? If so please show us

 

Here's a simple counter attacking 4-3-3 I put together earlier.

• I ended up switching to a RGA, BWM(s), and MEZ(s) when I was able to find a DM capable of doing both sides of the game. In the current version, the MEZ(a) is the main creator ahead of a tall enforcer DM(s). MEZ(a) can feel too strong at times?
• I also changed the mentality to "Balanced."

The other pivotal role/player profile for this was the PF(a), as other spearheading roles would leave you stranded in terms of pulling off wide/inside traps. Height and pace alongside the pressing profile was therefore needed for him to lead to the line (Pace is the priority but he can't be short). I only considered transitioning from a structured, partner oriented 4-4-2 once I had a competent player for both of those roles (6 and 9).

The 9 can be more flexible if you play farther up the pitch, but the DM is non negotiable for any style of 4-3-3. He needs to be tall/smart and fairly mobile to deal with counters/crosses and screen the defence in transition. He'll also need to be moderately proficient at linking up play from the defensive third. 

The strength of this formation, and the 4-3-3 in general, is its flexibility. You'll need to tweak roles, traps, etc. to get the best out of it.

• I would say this is perfect for a mid table club. 4-3-3's put you in more 1v1 battles so you need a bit higher quality players, but you'll still be an underdog who most teams will look to take the game to. In home matches against smaller sides, the flexibility of the 4-3-3 means you can dictate the game yourself (throw on an IWB and have fun).

Edited March 8 by Cloud9

[silentventus]

On 08/03/2024 at 01:41, Cloud9 said:

Here's a simple counter attacking 4-3-3 I put together earlier.

• I ended up switching to a RGA, BWM(s), and MEZ(s) when I was able to find a DM capable of doing both sides of the game. In the current version, the MEZ(a) is the main creator ahead of a tall enforcer DM(s). MEZ(a) can feel too strong at times?
• I also changed the mentality to "Balanced."

The other pivotal role/player profile for this was the PF(a), as other spearheading roles would leave you stranded in terms of pulling off wide/inside traps. Height and pace alongside the pressing profile was therefore needed for him to lead to the line (Pace is the priority but he can't be short). I only considered transitioning from a structured, partner oriented 4-4-2 once I had a competent player for both of those roles (6 and 9).

The 9 can be more flexible if you play farther up the pitch, but the DM is non negotiable for any style of 4-3-3. He needs to be tall/smart and fairly mobile to deal with counters/crosses and screen the defence in transition. He'll also need to be moderately proficient at linking up play from the defensive third. 

The strength of this formation, and the 4-3-3 in general, is its flexibility. You'll need to tweak roles, traps, etc. to get the best out of it.

• I would say this is perfect for a mid table club. 4-3-3's put you in more 1v1 battles so you need a bit higher quality players, but you'll still be an underdog who most teams will look to take the game to. In home matches against smaller sides, the flexibility of the 4-3-3 means you can dictate the game yourself (throw on an IWB and have fun).

Very Interesting that before you go for a 4-3-3 you want the 9 & 6 to be of a certain mold, that's defo gave me some food for thought because I normally go for a 4-3-3 whenever I can but I kinda noticed even though my DM, Jerdy Schouten was tall and could read the game well but his pace and acc of 11 sometimes got him in trouble. So I loaned in Michel Ndary Adopo from Atalanta who was far more mobile and could read the game fairly well for our level. Just a question, what attributes do you look out for when choosing your DM and ST?

 

[ElJuanvito]

Ever since 23, I've noticed that an advanced forward gets too isolated in a 4-3-3, almost a guaranteed 6.4 or lower unless he gets a goal or assist. Anyone else seeing this?

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, silentventus said:

 Just a question, what attributes do you look out for when choosing your DM and ST?

Here's the PF I picked up after promotion for 12m after transitioning to the 4-3-3 from the 4-4-2: 

Spoiler

Ideally I would have liked him to have higher teamwork but other than that he was just about a perfect fit to lead the line in a defensive counter attack. In the second season in the Premier League that I just finished (2025-2026), he led the line as we barged our way to an FA Cup final! And promptly lost to Liverpool after defending resolutely for 95 minutes to a Cody Gakpo volley. I'm not bitter. 

On attributes, the pace and competent aerial ability are make or break for him to lead the line in my system. Off the ball and some anticipation are important for him to be an actual threat to score goals and his ability to contribute outside of that for the team is dictated by his aggression, bravery, teamwork(lol), workrate, natural fitness, stamina. After that I'd like a half decent holy trinity of dribbling, finishing, first touch but tbh I value the ability to get into goal scoring positions more than taking them (hence 10 composure). 

• Off the ball is vital on a spearheading striker looking to run in behind, w/out this he will really struggle to score enough to be your solo 9. 
• Consistency is key on a solo 9, if he is having a bad game you are significantly less of a threat to the opposition.

Ended the season as our top goalscorer with 19 goals all competitions, a strong return in a counter attacking system (and one who is doing the dirty work). While he performed well he needed to do that for the tactic to work and to justify running a solo 9 to lead the attack. It's why I utilized a 4-4-2 earlier for the promotion charge, as I didn't have one striker I could trust enough for a high goal output.  

On a DM:

Spoiler

This guy is too good to join my side, but my scouts brought him up as an option at one point and he's the perfect archetype of a DM(s) for a 4-3-3. I was lucky (I'm playing w/scout only signings) and they brought me his teammate Rafael Luis as well who is way better than everyone else in my squad for 4.3m (hence the regista introduction to midfield). 

On a DM(s) I want high mentals and a decent physical profile. Anticipation, Composure, Decisions and Concentration are particularly nice on these player's but being at least competent at things like aggression, bravery, teamwork, workrate, positioning, marking etc is important. His ability pass a little (even if it's short) is something to look at, as he is the focal point of link between your midfield and defence. On the physical profile, I'd prefer a bit more strength but other than that's he's pretty much ideal, lots of running, not too slow and some good jumping reach. Of course being rapid never hurt anyone, but I'd view it as a bonus. A combo of agi/balance or strength can help exert influence on opposition, although some strength is needed for aerial challenges. I wouldn't sign a DM(s) who is inconsistent, and the good personality on him is a big plus. 

Really it's the high mentals that are key for me in this position. It's a tricky find since he's got to be a little bit of a lot of things. You can always retrain a CB to be a DM in the French model! 

 

That's just the bones of the idea based on my current save, but scale the attributes up/down to whatever you're playing at and it still applies. 

Edited March 14 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

8 hours ago, silentventus said:

Just a question, what attributes do you look out for when choosing your DM and ST?

The DM(s) w/the profile above will cover most 4-3-3 variations you'd look to run. The two other solo 6 DM roles (for me) are Regista and Halfback, but in most situations it's the DM(s). 

• The exact profile you'll look for your DM(s) will vary a little based on the style of 4-3-3 you chose to run (possession/counter attack etc.).

To touch on the regista I'm running at the moment:

• By moving the playmaker deeper (inspired by Koke's role in the 6 at Atletico and Guimaraes at Newcastle) I move the enforcer role to the BWM(s), who shares the responsibility w/ the MEZ(s) in another hard working profile. In deploying two 8's that can kick shins in ahead of the more technical 6, the pressing traps become well balanced and we're able to contest the ball higher up the pitch, bringing the PF(a) into the press and where getting stuck in is less likely to concede a dangerous free kick.
• In today's Champions League match vs Internazionale we saw Rodrygo de Paul and Marcos Llorente execute what I'm looking for from my 8's.

The 6 still carries defensive responsibilities on top of the required playmaking, but if you can find an appropriate profile the role's passing range provides line breaking passes for fun. 

Edited March 14 by Cloud9

[silentventus]

6 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

The DM(s) w/the profile above will cover most 4-3-3 variations you'd look to run. The two other solo 6 DM roles (for me) are Regista and Halfback, but in most situations it's the DM(s). 

• The exact profile you'll look for your DM(s) will vary a little based on the style of 4-3-3 you chose to run (possession/counter attack etc.).

To touch on the regista I'm running at the moment:

• By moving the playmaker deeper (inspired by Koke's role in the 6 at Atletico and Guimaraes at Newcastle) I move the enforcer role to the BWM(s), who shares the responsibility w/ the MEZ(s) in another hard working profile. In deploying two 8's that can kick shins in ahead of the more technical 6, the pressing traps become well balanced and we're able to contest the ball higher up the pitch, bringing the PF(a) into the press and where getting stuck in is less likely to concede a dangerous free kick.
• In today's Champions League match vs Internazionale we saw Rodrygo de Paul and Marcos Llorente execute what I'm looking for from my 8's.

The 6 still carries defensive responsibilities on top of the required playmaking, but if you can find an appropriate profile the role's passing range provides line breaking passes for fun. 

 

9 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Here's the PF I picked up after promotion for 12m after transitioning to the 4-3-3 from the 4-4-2: 

  Reveal hidden contents

Ideally I would have liked him to have higher teamwork but other than that he was just about a perfect fit to lead the line in a defensive counter attack. In the second season in the Premier League that I just finished (2025-2026), he led the line as we barged our way to an FA Cup final! And promptly lost to Liverpool after defending resolutely for 95 minutes to a Cody Gakpo volley. I'm not bitter. 

On attributes, the pace and competent aerial ability are make or break for him to lead the line in my system. Off the ball and some anticipation are important for him to be an actual threat to score goals and his ability to contribute outside of that for the team is dictated by his aggression, bravery, teamwork(lol), workrate, natural fitness, stamina. After that I'd like a half decent holy trinity of dribbling, finishing, first touch but tbh I value the ability to get into goal scoring positions more than taking them (hence 10 composure). 

• Off the ball is vital on a spearheading striker looking to run in behind, w/out this he will really struggle to score enough to be your solo 9. 
• Consistency is key on a solo 9, if he is having a bad game you are significantly less of a threat to the opposition.

Ended the season as our top goalscorer with 19 goals all competitions, a strong return in a counter attacking system (and one who is doing the dirty work). While he performed well he needed to do that for the tactic to work and to justify running a solo 9 to lead the attack. It's why I utilized a 4-4-2 earlier for the promotion charge, as I didn't have one striker I could trust enough for a high goal output.  

On a DM:

  Hide contents

This guy is too good to join my side, but my scouts brought him up as an option at one point and he's the perfect archetype of a DM(s) for a 4-3-3. I was lucky (I'm playing w/scout only signings) and they brought me his teammate Rafael Luis as well who is way better than everyone else in my squad for 4.3m (hence the regista introduction to midfield). 

On a DM(s) I want high mentals and a decent physical profile. Anticipation, Composure, Decisions and Concentration are particularly nice on these player's but being at least competent at things like aggression, bravery, teamwork, workrate, positioning, marking etc is important. His ability pass a little (even if it's short) is something to look at, as he is the focal point of link between your midfield and defence. On the physical profile, I'd prefer a bit more strength but other than that's he's pretty much ideal, lots of running, not too slow and some good jumping reach. Of course being rapid never hurt anyone, but I'd view it as a bonus. A combo of agi/balance or strength can help exert influence on opposition, although some strength is needed for aerial challenges. I wouldn't sign a DM(s) who is inconsistent, and the good personality on him is a big plus. 

Really it's the high mentals that are key for me in this position. It's a tricky find since he's got to be a little bit of a lot of things. You can always retrain a CB to be a DM in the French model! 

 

That's just the bones of the idea based on my current save, but scale the attributes up/down to whatever you're playing at and it still applies. 

Again a lot on brilliant insight and a lot to think about. Thank you very much! The last question I have after noticing what you said about setting up your 8s and DM(s), what if I wanted to run a possession based game would you go for more technical 8s and an enforcer of a DM(s) or how would you do it? 

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, silentventus said:

If I wanted to run a possession based game would you go for more technical 8s and an enforcer of a DM(s) or how would you do it? 

I would go with the enforcer DM(s) w/two 8's capable of utilizing positional play ahead of him. For a possession based 4-3-3 I'd select a ball playing Libero(d) or a IWB(s) to dictate the game alongside the DM(s).

You're looking for your wingers to pull and pin the opposition fullbacks wide, opening up space for your 8's to move into in their defence line. The DM(s) as an enforcer in this setup gives the 8's the platform to go and be more adventurous in creating/scoring goals. His role is oriented to protecting the backline from counter attacking transitions in these setups, so some extra height (Rodri esque) would be something to look at. A facilitating profile for the 9, instead of a spearheading striker, is an option as well.

The TI "hold shape" + "hit crosses early" on a wider width and lower tempo can help shift the opposition around and patiently create these gaps. Since you're not applying the same pressure that a narrow gegenpress does to the opposition, your highline is more exposed in transitions (which is the DM(s)'s main task here). It's important that the 8's still have industrious attributes as well (they're not 10's) but I'd favor far more expansive profiles than what I'm using for the counter attack style.

On role's for the 8, whichever one is attacking the box directly (perhaps a CM(a)) would benefit from having some height on him.

Here is how my counter attack 4-3-3 is progressing at the start of my 4th season in charge of the team:

Spoiler

It's the first season where I've been able to fully mould the squad into my image and the counter attacking style has been put to the test in a brutal run with 5 games against the big 6 to start things off. 2 conceded is the big takeaway for me! Our media prediction finish is 14th in the league this year, so most teams will be willing to bring the game to us home and away. 

Edited March 14 by Cloud9

[silentventus]

On 14/03/2024 at 15:18, Cloud9 said:

I would go with the enforcer DM(s) w/two 8's capable of utilizing positional play ahead of him. For a possession based 4-3-3 I'd select a ball playing Libero(d) or a IWB(s) to dictate the game alongside the DM(s).

You're looking for your wingers to pull and pin the opposition fullbacks wide, opening up space for your 8's to move into in their defence line. The DM(s) as an enforcer in this setup gives the 8's the platform to go and be more adventurous in creating/scoring goals. His role is oriented to protecting the backline from counter attacking transitions in these setups, so some extra height (Rodri esque) would be something to look at. A facilitating profile for the 9, instead of a spearheading striker, is an option as well.

The TI "hold shape" + "hit crosses early" on a wider width and lower tempo can help shift the opposition around and patiently create these gaps. Since you're not applying the same pressure that a narrow gegenpress does to the opposition, your highline is more exposed in transitions (which is the DM(s)'s main task here). It's important that the 8's still have industrious attributes as well (they're not 10's) but I'd favor far more expansive profiles than what I'm using for the counter attack style.

On role's for the 8, whichever one is attacking the box directly (perhaps a CM(a)) would benefit from having some height on him.

Here is how my counter attack 4-3-3 is progressing at the start of my 4th season in charge of the team:

  Reveal hidden contents

It's the first season where I've been able to fully mould the squad into my image and the counter attacking style has been put to the test in a brutal run with 5 games against the big 6 to start things off. 2 conceded is the big takeaway for me! Our media prediction finish is 14th in the league this year, so most teams will be willing to bring the game to us home and away. 

Just a quick question following up on this, what would you consider as industrious attributes? that left me a bit confused is that like teamwork, work rate, stamina etc. 

[WhiteElf]

On 08/03/2024 at 01:36, Overmars said:

General things I have noticed from using a 4-3-3 on FM24:

1. The AML/AMR spots work better in support roles. Relying on them as main goalscorers is unwise. They work better in creative roles in FM24, dribbling and playing cutbacks to scorers in the middle.
2. At least one of the MCs should be given a CM(a) (or maybe MEZ(a)) role. These attacking central midfielders will score as many goals as the AML/AMR will, often latching onto the end of cutbacks.
3. The DM can be a HB if the wingbacks are particularly aggressive or a DLP otherwise. High decisions and composure are vital here.
4. The wingbacks should be WB(s) or WB(a). You can go with CWB if you are really aggressive or FB if you aspire to be dull. I have messed around with inverted wingbacks, but I would only do this if playing a winger role on the same side as the IWB.
5. I find an AF(a) for striker works best. In principle, a DLF or F9 role should be fine, but the AML/AMR players just don't score enough to make this approach reliable enough in FM.
6. As for team instructions, the usual gegenpress instructions work great. Even when attempting to keep a lead late in matches, I will still press high and try to score insurance goals rather than sit back and hope to kill time. Again, that's an FM thing more than a football tactical thing.
7. You will also be able to win lots of corners, so make sure you have a good corner delivery specialist and 1-2 players with very high jumping to head home near post corners.

Formation 433 is my favorite and I cannot agree with what you write.
The IW and IF roles must be set to attack. Just a striker + a central attacking midfielder is not enough.
I did a lot of tests, the WBs/s play like they have no brain, they also leave a lot of space and gaps in the back. I switched to FBs and I can tell you that by setting a more offensive full-back such as Lamptey or Semedo on FBs, they will play and attack and stretch the game better than when placed on WB.
Additionally, FB plays better in defense and doesn't rush forward like an idiot.
There are many options in DM, my favorite is Regista, it's just everywhere, or HB when I want to play with 3 defenders.
As a striker, I like PF, he uses pressing, moves back to get the ball like DLF and goes to free areas like AF.
I have one tactic 433 with 3 defenders which promoted Millwall to the Premier League in the 1st season.
Now I'm testing my new tactic with normal wing defenders because it's easier to find them, I also want my IF/IW and striker to be the main scorers, I will publish it soon. Regards

Edited March 18 by WhiteElf

[Cloud9]

18 hours ago, WhiteElf said:

The IW and IF roles must be set to attack. Just a striker + a central attacking midfielder is not enough.

I would be careful with thinking like this, sounds like those roles suit your system well but it certainly doesn't apply across the board to all styles of 4-3-3. The fullback roles that you mention, are also not inherently better than wingback roles. However, I do personally like the fullbacks as they are (as you mention) a bit more defensively minded and sit narrow. I also agree with you that a PF(a) can be great spearheading striker in a 4-3-3, especially on a midblock.

On 17/03/2024 at 09:50, silentventus said:

Just a quick question following up on this, what would you consider as industrious attributes? that left me a bit confused is that like teamwork, work rate, stamina etc. 

No problem, usually the profile I'm looking for is someone with a lot of running (ability to cover space). As you mention, Teamwork, Workrate, Stamina, Determination, and Natural Fitness are staples of any 8 in a 4-3-3 and what primarily makes them industrious. I would want at least one of my 8's to be exceptional at these attributes. As always a good personality and consistency goes a long way. 

• My system (a counter attack midblock) values Aggression, Tackling, Anticipation, Bravery + a strong mentals as I'm expecting them to function as part of the defensive block, and as the primary  area I want to challenge for the ball in. To that end I look for 8's w/either a turn of pace (interceptions, ball winning) or a combo agi/balance or strength to exert influence on the opposition. Since the regista is primarily creating behind them, there's less freedom given to them as they screen him and challenge for the ball high up the pitch. 
• A higher lines system can get away with a more "water carrier" profile ie. Jordan Henderson, alongside a more capable (if not equally hardworking) creator/goalscorer. A less capable 8 can be deployed as a CAR to babysit an extremely attacking Fullback position (Trent) who would be otherwise exposed. 

No matter the system, having them be at least decently proficiently well rounded is important:

• They have the responsibility to link up the midfield and attacking areas as well as doing the hard yards for the team.
• They're not 6's or 10's, so their profiles can't be purely destroyer or creator. 

On a final note, I'd try to remember that the midfield three operates as a unit. For example, in Real Madrid's dominant midfield three: Casemiro (the tank), offered space for Kroos (a great passer of the baller) alongside Modric (who drove forward the most out of the three). It's as much about striking a balance of Creator/Runner/Scorer/Destroyer as anything else.

Hope that helped, happy to provide further assistance if need  

[Chapman7]

@Cloud9 for a possession side would you say the 3 man midfield of a 

  Mezzela(s) -Defensive Midfielder(s) - Central Midfielder(s)/Box-To-Box 

is what would be needed for that Creator, Runner and Enforcer style of profiles

[Cloud9]

48 minutes ago, Chapman7 said:

@Cloud9 for a possession side would you say the 3 man midfield of a 

  Mezzela(s) -Defensive Midfielder(s) - Central Midfielder(s)/Box-To-Box 

is what would be needed for that Creator, Runner and Enforcer style of profiles

That sounds fine! Just keep in mind that it's as much on the attributes of the player's you put in the roles as the roles themselves. 

[silentventus]

22 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I would be careful with thinking like this, sounds like those roles suit your system well but it certainly doesn't apply across the board to all styles of 4-3-3. The fullback roles that you mention, are also not inherently better than wingback roles. However, I do personally like the fullbacks as they are (as you mention) a bit more defensively minded and sit narrow. I also agree with you that a PF(a) can be great spearheading striker in a 4-3-3, especially on a midblock.

No problem, usually the profile I'm looking for is someone with a lot of running (ability to cover space). As you mention, Teamwork, Workrate, Stamina, Determination, and Natural Fitness are staples of any 8 in a 4-3-3 and what primarily makes them industrious. I would want at least one of my 8's to be exceptional at these attributes. As always a good personality and consistency goes a long way. 

• My system (a counter attack midblock) values Aggression, Tackling, Anticipation, Bravery + a strong mentals as I'm expecting them to function as part of the defensive block, and as the primary  area I want to challenge for the ball in. To that end I look for 8's w/either a turn of pace (interceptions, ball winning) or a combo agi/balance or strength to exert influence on the opposition. Since the regista is primarily creating behind them, there's less freedom given to them as they screen him and challenge for the ball high up the pitch. 
• A higher lines system can get away with a more "water carrier" profile ie. Jordan Henderson, alongside a more capable (if not equally hardworking) creator/goalscorer. A less capable 8 can be deployed as a CAR to babysit an extremely attacking Fullback position (Trent) who would be otherwise exposed. 

No matter the system, having them be at least decently proficiently well rounded is important:

• They have the responsibility to link up the midfield and attacking areas as well as doing the hard yards for the team.
• They're not 6's or 10's, so their profiles can't be purely destroyer or creator. 

On a final note, I'd try to remember that the midfield three operates as a unit. For example, in Real Madrid's dominant midfield three: Casemiro (the tank), offered space for Kroos (a great passer of the baller) alongside Modric (who drove forward the most out of the three). It's as much about striking a balance of Creator/Runner/Scorer/Destroyer as anything else.

Hope that helped, happy to provide further assistance if need  

That actually makes a lot of sense, in terms of the profiles and what Industrious attributes mean thank you again, all of this is very much appreciated. Taking in all this Information, I will would like some advice on something I’m planning to do in an Arsenal save but never really knew if it was the right move. 

I want to run a high pressing system, with Rice as the DM, Odegaard and Smith Rowe as the two 8s when it comes to the industrious aspect they are two very hard working players and technical at that, but I don’t know if their low bravery, aggression, positioning and tackling will be a problem. Smith Rowe has decent aggression (13) and bravery (11) but odegaard not in double digits on those attributes, what do you think? 

Also if it’s not a bother can I see the player you use for the regista role?

Edited March 20 by silentventus

[Cloud9]

On 19/03/2024 at 16:40, silentventus said:

I want to run a high pressing system, with Rice as the DM, Odegaard and Smith Rowe as the two 8s when it comes to the industrious aspect they are two very hard working players and technical at that, but I don’t know if their low bravery, aggression, positioning and tackling will be a problem. Smith Rowe has decent aggression (13) and bravery (11) but odegaard not in double digits on those attributes, what do you think? 

Also if it’s not a bother can I see the player you use for the regista role?

That sounds interesting! If you're creating an Arsenal replication I would consider 1. How Arsenal are playing this year or 2. How Arteta planned for Arsenal to play this year. 

I think this is how Arsenals midfielder is lining up IRL with Jorginho holding as Rice gets forward a bit more (not sure if Odegaard would be classed as an AP or MEZ but both are options). In FM terms, this is quite weak I think, since Jorginho's lack of height and overall physicality leaves you exposed on turnovers. 

Spoiler

To that end I would recommend something like this for an accurate replication of Arsenal's midfield 3, but more functional in FM terms.

Spoiler

If you wanted to set Arsenal up how Arteta intended going into the season(Indicated by bringing Timber in, and shipping Tierney out):

• I think he imagined Havertz (who is quite a physical presence despite his languid style) as the Xhaka upgrade as an 8 w/ Timber playing the Stones role stepping into midfield. Unfortunately Havertz struggled in midfield and Timber did his ACL, so we've seen more of a traditional back 4 again with the Ben White + Saka partnership continuing to flourish. 

Spoiler

On to your question on two 8's of Odegaard + Smith Rowe, I think of them as more of 10's than true 8's. You could play them together w/ Smith Rowe working a bit harder for Odegaard, but I would only do so when running either a Libero(d) or IWB(s) to step into midfield and provide a strong foundation for them to work in front of. Running them in two roles that would trigger a rotation would allow them to step up in possession into area's better suited to a 10.

On the Regista: I'm running a save where I'm doing recruitment only via scouting so the player's are the best I can find, but not me cherry picking exact attributes. The scouts brought in Rafael Luis (4.1m) at the start of my 3rd season in charge so giving him a role that got him on the ball as much as possible was an easy decision (as he was by far our best player). This was his profile when he first signed for us. He is a superb player, and was a model citizen to boot  (although I ruined this on him which still hurts my head). He only lacks a little bit of off the ball to roam properly (in an ideal world I would have preferred some Aggression/Bravery on him, Bruno Guimaraes at Newcastle is a textbook example of the perfect regista imo). The BWM(s) I utilized ahead of him provided us with the aggression/bravery/pure running he lacked in his profile/role (I also prioritized a strong personality on the BWM as to not see too many cards). The MEZ(s) was a well rounded jack of all trades.

Spoiler

At the moment I've switched to a DM(s) for Luis because my starting MEZ(s) did his cruciate and is now out for 8 months. The team has gotten a lot better since the 3rd season and playing w/out a playmaker can make the counter attack less one dimensional with PI tinkering. Luis developed a ton physically, but not enough on the holy trinity of Passing/Technique/Vision to where I would want the majority of my play to go through him still. We're starting our 4th season in the Premier League (and my 5th in charge) for context. 

• In switching to a DM(s) my midfield 3 was lacking a bit of creativity and I was fortunate to bring in Brahim Diaz on a free transfer to play a MEZ(a) role.
• Diaz has the rare attribute combinations which are simply devastating on a MEZ(a). He's decently hard working out of possession but it's a combination of high flair, two footed dribbling with creative end product that's the real kicker. He's got a turn of pace on him which is vital (16 acceleration, 14 pace), enabling him to drive forward on the ball in a counter attack. 
• Two footed players are brilliant on any role looking to run at opposition with the ball. On a creative, dynamic role like the MEZ(a) I cannot overstate just how good this is. 

On 19/03/2024 at 12:18, Chapman7 said:

@Cloud9 for a possession side would you say the 3 man midfield of a 

  Mezzela(s) -Defensive Midfielder(s) - Central Midfielder(s)/Box-To-Box 

is what would be needed for that Creator, Runner and Enforcer style of profiles

Thought I'd provide a little more information: On a possession style with a 4-3-3 I'd recommend either having an IWB or Libero move into the midfield to create the nice box 4 you can get going there to control things a bit more. 

MEZ(s)+BBM are both roles that trigger a rotation and give you a good combination of creativity/output/hard work for the 8's. I am a fan of the CM(s), but the role doesn't trigger a rotation unless its run as an attack role I believe (just something to keep in mind). I'd personally be more inclined to run a CM(s) in a 4-3-3 w/out a defender stepping into midfield.

Edited March 21 by Cloud9

[Chapman7]

On 21/03/2024 at 06:03, Cloud9 said:

Thought I'd provide a little more information: On a possession style with a 4-3-3 I'd recommend either having an IWB or Libero move into the midfield to create the nice box 4 you can get going there to control things a bit more. 

MEZ(s)+BBM are both roles that trigger a rotation and give you a good combination of creativity/output/hard work for the 8's. I am a fan of the CM(s), but the role doesn't trigger a rotation unless its run as an attack role I believe (just something to keep in mind). I'd personally be more inclined to run a CM(s) in a 4-3-3 w/out a defender stepping into midfield.

I have 2 IWB -s to pack the midfield and support the DM who's legs aren't going to last most games, eventually a Libero is the plan once get a player more rounded to play it

It's for Bruno I can never seem to find many roles that have him perform well along with being a threat in terms of goals and assists. Not sure how to line up the midfield without the as he doesn't always perform as the Mez so thought Mount as a Mez along with Bruno a CM s with get further forward, roam, move into channels and take more risks would offer some of the rotation that is hard coded into certain roles 

Edited March 22 by Chapman7

[Cloud9]

27 minutes ago, Chapman7 said:

I have 2 IWB -s to pack the midfield and support the DM who's legs aren't going to last most games, eventually a Libero is the plan once get a player more rounded to play it

It's for Bruno I can never seem to find many roles that have him perform well along with being a threat in terms of goals and assists. Not sure how to line up the midfield without the as he doesn't always perform as the Mez so thought Mount as a Mez along with Bruno a CM s with get further forward, roam, move into channels and take more risks would offer some of the rotation that is hard coded into certain roles 

What about switching to a 4-2-3-1 and putting bruno in the 10?

Tottenham have been the best English Side under Postecoglou in my save (they just won back to back League titles) using a double IWB setup that's been brutally effective. 

Edited March 22 by Cloud9

[Chapman7]

On 22/03/2024 at 21:36, Cloud9 said:

What about switching to a 4-2-3-1 and putting bruno in the 10?

Tottenham have been the best English Side under Postecoglou in my save (they just won back to back League titles) using a double IWB setup that's been brutally effective. 

I used to play 4-2-3-1 last couple versions wanting to go with 4-3-3 especially given the variety of ways to play it in attacking phase

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, Chapman7 said:

I used to play 4-2-3-1 last couple versions wanting to go with 4-3-3 especially given the variety of ways to play it in attacking phase

You could stick Bruno and Mount as two 8-->10's in a 4-3-3 w/positional play (CM(a), AP, MEZ, BBM etc.).

I would avoid a second inverted wingback with a 4-3-3, w/out two DM's to screen the backline (and two fairly adventurous 8's) you're fairly exposed on the break.

On 22/03/2024 at 14:12, Chapman7 said:

Mez so thought Mount as a Mez along with Bruno a CM s with get further forward

How about a BBM + AP combo?

Edited March 27 by Cloud9

[whatsupdoc]

On 27/02/2024 at 03:58, GSTG said:

Has someone made a solid and successful 433 formation with mid table team that has not tons of instructions and gegenpress style ? If so please show us

 

 

It's not easy. The Inside Forwards don't make runs in behind enough (regadless of the striker role used) so it's tough to get enough goals from them.

[Cloud9]

15 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

It's not easy. The Inside Forwards don't make runs in behind enough (regadless of the striker role used) so it's tough to get enough goals from them.

It's true that the wide attackers don't operate in the same manner as IRL, but all it means is that it helps to run a spearheading striker in a lower lines 4-3-3. You don't have to worry about this as much in a high lines system where they can be prolific with the right system. I like the off footed winger for a wide attacker w/more similar movement to what we see in real life. I find myself rarely utilizing IF/IW at the moment.

The 4-3-3 is not weak by any means, particularly if you utilize the Positional Play feature. In a defensive approach it's superb with the right players, capable of trapping inside or outside while contesting against 4 man midfields. 

Edited March 27 by Cloud9

[Chapman7]

18 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

You could stick Bruno and Mount as two 8-->10's in a 4-3-3 w/positional play (CM(a), AP, MEZ, BBM etc.).

I would avoid a second inverted wingback with a 4-3-3, w/out two DM's to screen the backline (and two fairly adventurous 8's) you're fairly exposed on the break.

How about a BBM + AP combo?

I could try the BTB and AP combo. Played Arsenal and we struggled to say the least they had 0.57 and I 0.21 which is barbaric and finished 0-0. So willing to give anything to get things going. 

If not a IWB what would you suggest to have on one side? 

This is currently the set up and who I had start in the last game: 

 

I am thinking of going with a CF-s & IF-s on the left potentially in future 

Edited March 27 by Chapman7

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, Chapman7 said:

I could try the BTB and AP combo. Played Arsenal and we struggled to say the least they had 0.57 and I 0.21 which is barbaric and finished 0-0. So willing to give anything to get things going. 

If not a IWB what would you suggest to have on one side? 

This is currently the set up and who I had start in the last game: 

 

I am thinking of going with a CF-s & IF-s on the left potentially in future 

I like an inverted fullback + IWB combo! That gives you a solid platform to go out and play in front of. 

On the frontline...could use a bit more punch, two IW(s) is fairly conservative, try giving Rashford an attack role. I would try using off footed winger roles instead of the inverted winger, particularly w the IWB setup.

Martial will struggle to lead the line for you, he is no great. A short forward with poor off the ball, poor decision making, and no vision will struggle as a DLF in my opinion. Does Fernandes have the training to play in the striker spot (he plays almost as a second striker irl)? You could him in slot him in nicely as a F9. If not, I'd prefer Rashford or Hojlund through the middle and Martial out wide (it doesn't suit Rashford in how he actually plays, but his profile is crazy for a striker).

If you keep him in the 8, how about trying him as a RPM? I usually like a MEZ(a) who can carry the ball forward and MEZ(s) probably doesn't give him enough space to utilize his great ability on the ball. It's not a role I've utilized too often, but could but fun to give it a go!

Edited March 28 by Cloud9

[Chapman7]

28 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I like an inverted fullback + IWB combo! That gives you a solid platform to go out and play in front of. 

On the frontline...could use a bit more punch, two IW(s) is fairly conservative, try giving Rashford an attack role. I would try using off footed winger roles instead of the inverted winger, particularly w the IWB setup.

Martial will struggle to lead the line for you, he is no great. A short forward with poor off the ball, poor decision making, and no vision will struggle as a DLF in my opinion. Does Fernandes have the training to play in the striker spot (he plays almost as a second striker irl)? You could him in slot in nicely as a F9. If not, I'd prefer Rashford or Hojlund through the middle and Martial out wide (it doesn't suit Rashford in how he actually plays, but his profile is crazy for a striker).

If you keep him in the 8, how about trying him as a RPM? I usually like a MEZ(a) who can carry the ball forward and MEZ(s) probably doesn't give him enough space to utilize his great ability on the ball. It's not a role I've utilized too often, but could but fun to give it a go!

Only problem with the IFB and IWB combo is I have 2 Full Backs who like to bomb forward by traits which makes the IFB role awkward as they likely go off anyway I think? 

Yeah I did try the Winger roles didn't quite pan out through Pre Season but could try again. Maybe I'll give Rashford a Inside Forward-A with a Winger-S on the wings

Yeah I agree Martial is more the back up until Hojlund is back fit as starts Injured until 2-3 games in to the season, and didn't have funds to sign a new one to cover the gap left by Hojlund's injury . Martial is only an inch shorter than Rashford though lol but agreed hes more suited to the striker role than Martial.

I tried the Advance Playmaker vs Chelsea for Bruno got 7.7, 95% pass completion, 4 Key Passes & 3 CCC with 7 shots 28% on target. But having him as a False Nine is a interesting strategy to say the least!

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, Chapman7 said:

Martial is only an inch shorter than Rashford though lol but agreed hes more suited to the striker role than Martial.

Sorry, unclear on my part regarding height. The game mostly cares about Jumping Reach compared to the height itself. The height plays some factor in being able to reach the ball, but it's largely inconsequential compared to the jumping reach itself (so you're really looking at Martial Jumping Reach 9 vs Rashford Jumping Reach 12).

IF(a) would work well for Rashford as you mention, I think his profile is largely focused on scoring goals himself.

Edited March 28 by Cloud9

[Chapman7]

15 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Sorry, unclear on my part regarding height. The game mostly cares about Jumping Reach compared to the height itself. The height plays some factor in being able to reach the ball, but it's largely inconsequential compared to the jumping reach itself (so you're really looking at Martial Jumping Reach 9 vs Rashford Jumping Reach 12).

IF(a) would work well for Rashford as you mention, I think his profile is largely focused on scoring goals himself.

Oh with ya now 😂. Yeah that’s true. If went with Rashford up top what role would you say DLF still? And then would the IF-A still suitable for Martial? 

[Cloud9]

8 hours ago, Chapman7 said:

Oh with ya now 😂. Yeah that’s true. If went with Rashford up top what role would you say DLF still? And then would the IF-A still suitable for Martial? 

I would want Rashford or Hojlund as spearheading number 9's with their profiles. Either a Poacher or an AF.

On Martial, if he's on the left hand side I would distill his ability down to a player who can run with the ball very well. He's quick, strong, has a good agi/balance combo + dribbling flair. An off footed winger support role would help make space for either of your capable 9's to finish off chances. I wouldn't want him in a role like IF where others are working for him as his off the ball is 12 which is a problem on a player you want scoring goals for you. 

• Pulling/pinning the fullback out wide and providing the ability to beat a man let's him provide two distinct functions in your setup.  A lot of teams will sit back against you and that width and 1v1 threat will help break down teams that sit back against you.
• The winger(s) role will help cover up for some of the deficiencies in his profile by keeping things simple for the player. I'd add pass it shorter in his PIs and go from there. 

Edited March 29 by Cloud9

[Chapman7]

1 minute ago, Cloud9 said:

I would want Rashford or Hojlund as spearheading number 9's with their profiles. Either a Poacher or an AF.

On Martial, if he's on the left hand side I would distill his ability down to a player who can run with the ball very well. He's quick, strong, has a good agi/balance combo + dribbling fair. An off footed winger support role would help make space for either of your cable 9's to finish off chances. I wouldn't want him in a role like IF where others are working for him as his off the ball is 12 which is a problem on a player you want scoring goals for you. 

• Pulling/pinning the fullback out wide and providing the ability to beat a man will help break down teams that sit back against you (which is going to happen a lot as Man United). 

Looking like I've gone about this tactic all wrong  May have to restart it from scratch again 

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, Chapman7 said:

Looking like I've gone about this tactic all wrong  May have to restart it from scratch again 

I don't think you're too far off! Should be ticking over in no time  

[whatsupdoc]

On 28/03/2024 at 05:16, Cloud9 said:

It's true that the wide attackers don't operate in the same manner as IRL, but all it means is that it helps to run a spearheading striker in a lower lines 4-3-3. You don't have to worry about this as much in a high lines system where they can be prolific with the right system. I like the off footed winger for a wide attacker w/more similar movement to what we see in real life. I find myself rarely utilizing IF/IW at the moment.

The 4-3-3 is not weak by any means, particularly if you utilize the Positional Play feature. In a defensive approach it's superb with the right players, capable of trapping inside or outside while contesting against 4 man midfields. 

Let's be honest, this FM is characterised by 3 things:

- double DMs on a support role.

- pressing high

- goals from central players (ST and AMC). 

Other approaches are possible, but these 3 things are objectively stronger than their alternatives in FM24.  

By playing a 4-3-3 (always my preferred system) rather than a 4231, you're playing directly against the meta. You won't be able to:

- get enough extra goals from the inside forwards to justify not using an AMC. (They're simply not coded to cut in diagonally enough without the ball, and won't latch on to many diagonal through balls in behind);

- get as much from the 433 as a high pressing system compared to the 4231;

- and finally you'll forgo the double DMs on support duty which dominate in FM24. 

Overall you're choosing to run against the wind by trying it. 

It's possible to succeed with it but ultimately you're fighting against what works well in this. 

Edited March 29 by whatsupdoc

[Rashidi]

On 27/02/2024 at 00:58, GSTG said:

Has someone made a solid and successful 433 formation with mid table team that has not tons of instructions and gegenpress style ? If so please show us

 

To play a 433 well you need to know what you are doing against different formations, if you opt to play with a Libero, you are upping the risk factor so unless you have a decent player play on defend duty. If you have a good DM who can play as a RPM brilliant otherwise go with a DM on support.

Against systems that play an IWB/IFB - I play the AMs as wingers
Against systems that are 3 at the back I play IF(A)s
Against very defensive sides that have few support duties in defence i change the config at the back to a WB(D) on the left, CD, CD, FB(A) with either a Winger on attack or an IF(A), again this depends on the opposition. If its a back 3 then I go with a FB(A)/IF(A) and add underlap on the flank that plays the IF.  If I want to dial it up even more, then I change the AF to a Poacher so he stays in the box at all times while I create an attacking overload down the right flank.
 

Its pretty straightforward dropping this into a midblock as well, and because we have flank pressure with side midfielders with high aggression, I sometimes remove POOD and tell the keeper to distribute to the flanks. So yeah its entirely possible to do well with a 433, you just need to know when to play wingers and when to play inside forwards, both roles are good. The IFs destroy back 3 systems, you just have to play them right.

[crusadertsar]

19 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

To play a 433 well you need to know what you are doing against different formations, if you opt to play with a Libero, you are upping the risk factor so unless you have a decent player play on defend duty. If you have a good DM who can play as a RPM brilliant otherwise go with a DM on support.

Against systems that play an IWB/IFB - I play the AMs as wingers
Against systems that are 3 at the back I play IF(A)s
Against very defensive sides that have few support duties in defence i change the config at the back to a WB(D) on the left, CD, CD, FB(A) with either a Winger on attack or an IF(A), again this depends on the opposition. If its a back 3 then I go with a FB(A)/IF(A) and add underlap on the flank that plays the IF.  If I want to dial it up even more, then I change the AF to a Poacher so he stays in the box at all times while I create an attacking overload down the right flank.
 

Its pretty straightforward dropping this into a midblock as well, and because we have flank pressure with side midfielders with high aggression, I sometimes remove POOD and tell the keeper to distribute to the flanks. So yeah its entirely possible to do well with a 433, you just need to know when to play wingers and when to play inside forwards, both roles are good. The IFs destroy back 3 systems, you just have to play them right.

That's a nice tactic!

Edited March 29 by crusadertsar

[Chapman7]

20 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I don't think you're too far off! Should be ticking over in no time  

Last 3 games won 2 1 draw(lost on penaties) just need to make a way to create more as seem to be a struggle 

[Mutumba]

On 29/03/2024 at 17:51, Rashidi said:

To play a 433 well you need to know what you are doing against different formations, if you opt to play with a Libero, you are upping the risk factor so unless you have a decent player play on defend duty. If you have a good DM who can play as a RPM brilliant otherwise go with a DM on support.

Against systems that play an IWB/IFB - I play the AMs as wingers
Against systems that are 3 at the back I play IF(A)s
Against very defensive sides that have few support duties in defence i change the config at the back to a WB(D) on the left, CD, CD, FB(A) with either a Winger on attack or an IF(A), again this depends on the opposition. If its a back 3 then I go with a FB(A)/IF(A) and add underlap on the flank that plays the IF.  If I want to dial it up even more, then I change the AF to a Poacher so he stays in the box at all times while I create an attacking overload down the right flank.
 

Its pretty straightforward dropping this into a midblock as well, and because we have flank pressure with side midfielders with high aggression, I sometimes remove POOD and tell the keeper to distribute to the flanks. So yeah its entirely possible to do well with a 433, you just need to know when to play wingers and when to play inside forwards, both roles are good. The IFs destroy back 3 systems, you just have to play them right.

So how do you set up your wingers against wb/fb

Edited April 2 by Mutumba

[Poison]

Here's mine, not sure if the instructions are a lot or not tbh. I've also showed some of my players so you'll get an idea of my team strength (they are all real players). I use it against strong teams and at away games (not all). I've beaten teams like Napoli and Milan many times using it.

[Mutumba]

59 minutes ago, Poison said:

Here's mine, not sure if the instructions are a lot or not tbh. I've also showed some of my players so you'll get an idea of my team strength (they are all real players). I use it against strong teams and at away games (not all). I've beaten teams like Napoli and Milan many times using it.

Could you share your other tactic that you use at home/against smaller sides?

[Poison]

6 hours ago, Mutumba said:

Could you share your other tactic that you use at home/against smaller sides?

Sure mate, the first one is my more balanced one which uses the rpm instead of the BBM because he helps a little bit more with the ball. The DM becomes a traditional defensive midfielder then. The second one (with the double iwb) has a certain "no defense, just vibes" feeling to it. It's being used when I'm desperate or against really weak teams (though it's a good formation for any opponent, really). Both fully press as you can see.

[bosque]

On 07/03/2024 at 22:41, Cloud9 said:

Here's a simple counter attacking 4-3-3 I put together earlier.

• I ended up switching to a RGA, BWM(s), and MEZ(s) when I was able to find a DM capable of doing both sides of the game. In the current version, the MEZ(a) is the main creator ahead of a tall enforcer DM(s). MEZ(a) can feel too strong at times?
• I also changed the mentality to "Balanced."

The other pivotal role/player profile for this was the PF(a), as other spearheading roles would leave you stranded in terms of pulling off wide/inside traps. Height and pace alongside the pressing profile was therefore needed for him to lead to the line (Pace is the priority but he can't be short). I only considered transitioning from a structured, partner oriented 4-4-2 once I had a competent player for both of those roles (6 and 9).

The 9 can be more flexible if you play farther up the pitch, but the DM is non negotiable for any style of 4-3-3. He needs to be tall/smart and fairly mobile to deal with counters/crosses and screen the defence in transition. He'll also need to be moderately proficient at linking up play from the defensive third. 

The strength of this formation, and the 4-3-3 in general, is its flexibility. You'll need to tweak roles, traps, etc. to get the best out of it.

• I would say this is perfect for a mid table club. 4-3-3's put you in more 1v1 battles so you need a bit higher quality players, but you'll still be an underdog who most teams will look to take the game to. In home matches against smaller sides, the flexibility of the 4-3-3 means you can dictate the game yourself (throw on an IWB and have fun).

Sorry for the late quote, I just read the thread. I'm curious on the thinking behind the DM(s) with hold position and not just DM(d),

[Bellyfish]

On 26/02/2024 at 16:58, GSTG said:

Has someone made a solid and successful 433 formation with mid table team that has not tons of instructions and gegenpress style ? If so please show us

 

This is what I'm using for my league 2 mid table predicted team. High defensive line and trap inside are situational depending on the opposition, but rest of instructions remain the same game to game.

Not sure if you were looking for a tactic without gegen style, but I think a 4-4-3 should have some element of high/more often pressing due to its shape.

[crusadertsar]

22 hours ago, bosque said:

Sorry for the late quote, I just read the thread. I'm curious on the thinking behind the DM(s) with hold position and not just DM(d),

My guess it's because of the increased individual mentality. I do the same thing myself. It helps the player make more risky decisions when it comes to passing, ect. Especially when you have a technical player. At the same time it's prevents player from getting marked out as often happens when you use a playmaking role there. So DM role on support is great. You can customize it to your heart's content and make him into a hybrid anchor/playmaker. DM(D) is just too conservative for what I need this player to do in a progressive possession 433 tactic. Especially when building up from the back.

Edited April 7 by crusadertsar

[bosque]

38 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

My guess it's because of the increased individual mentality. I do the same thing myself. It helps the player make more risky decisions when it comes to passing, ect. Especially when you have a technical player. At the same time it's prevents player from getting marked out as often happens when you use a playmaking role there. So DM role on support is great. You can customize it to your heart's content and make him into a hybrid anchor/playmaker. DM(D) is just too conservative for what I need this player to do in a progressive possession 433 tactic. Especially when building up from the back.

Thanks! I will try this. I'm using a DM(d) now and I felt I was wasting this player because (apart from having good defensive attributes) he is good at passing, off the ball and he even has decent dribbling. Your description sounds like what I'm looking for.

[Cloud9]

On 06/04/2024 at 16:39, bosque said:

Sorry for the late quote, I just read the thread. I'm curious on the thinking behind the DM(s) with hold position and not just DM(d),

Yea basically on a single pivot you're looking for someone who can connect the defensive and midfield thirds, and the DM(s) helps to do that. I also favor the higher starting position that the support role gives you (In and out of possession). As @crusadertsar mentions, the customization on the role is one of the big draws.