Strategic Dilemma: Goal Conceding Woes. Suggestions?

[bosque]

So far, I'm happy. Last season with this system, we finished 2nd in the Bundesliga, lost the DFB Pokal final against RB Leipzig, and managed to advance to the knockout stages of the Champions League. We achieved all the objectives, and this year we are having a similar campaign: 2nd in the league, advanced to the knockout stages of the CL, out of the DFB Pokal.

The system:

Spoiler

However, in the second half of last season and during the first half of this season, we have been facing defensive problems; we can't stop conceding. We are doing well going forward, scoring goals in almost all games, but conceding in a lot of them too. The main problem is that most of the goals aren't from counter-attacks. They come from early crosses, through balls, and, to a lesser extent, from balls over the top. Most of the time, we are already in the defensive organization phase with the defense settled. My defenders have good mental attributes for the division (14-15 across the board, 13 being the minimum), and they are not slow. Not the fastest, but not turtles either.

The basic idea of our out-of-possession plan is working because our AM and ST are preventing the opposition from passing to the pivots, so more often than not, they have to attack down the flanks. However, somehow, we can't use the sideline to our advantage, and teams are finding time and space on the flanks to hurt us.

I have no idea how I can solve this because we don't look disorganized when defending, but we are leaky.

Some thoughts are:

• Adding 'drop off more' to prevent through balls and balls over the top.
• Adding 'stop crosses' so our flank players are more aggressive. Or increase the trigger press of the flank players so they are more aggressive.
• Pushing the defensive line higher to have the entire team engaging the opposition a bit earlier and accepting the balls over the top.
• Dropping the mentality to balanced to push the entire team a bit back.
• Keeping everything the same and hoping the team can find some defensive consistency.

Any thoughts on how can I improve my defence?

[StatboySpurs]

I had success in FM23 with "drop off more" but in FM24 I seemed to allow more long shots with that instruction. So I unticked it, and now I'm conceding more in other ways.

Basically in FM24 I'm not defending anywhere near as well as I did in FM23. That's with an imported save. I dominated in FM23, but immediately started conceding in FM24. I've tried several different tactics, restarting the imported save each time. And it's kind of the same each time. I'm still 2nd in the league in goals conceded, but in FM23 I was in first by a wide margin. I do keep some clean sheets, but I feel like it's more about out-talenting the other team than anything else. I'm not a tactical guru, but I'm not bad at it either. So I wonder if it's just an FM24 thing. I've seen others suggesting as such.

Maybe push the defensive line higher AND tick drop off more? 

[bosque]

15 minutes ago, StatboySpurs said:

I had success in FM23 with "drop off more" but in FM24 I seemed to allow more long shots with that instruction. So I unticked it, and now I'm conceding more in other ways.

Basically in FM24 I'm not defending anywhere near as well as I did in FM23. That's with an imported save. I dominated in FM23, but immediately started conceding in FM24. I've tried several different tactics, restarting the imported save each time. And it's kind of the same each time. I'm still 2nd in the league in goals conceded, but in FM23 I was in first by a wide margin. I do keep some clean sheets, but I feel like it's more about out-talenting the other team than anything else. I'm not a tactical guru, but I'm not bad at it either. So I wonder if it's just an FM24 thing. I've seen others suggesting as such.

Maybe push the defensive line higher AND tick drop off more? 

I forgot to say this is FM23! 

[StatboySpurs]

38 minutes ago, bosque said:

I forgot to say this is FM23! 

Ah, ok! Well in that case, "Drop Off More" worked well for me in FM23 so give it a shot!

[Vladis]

In FM23 and in FM24 I also found it hard to be stable defensively using 4231 even with mid-block. 

9 hours ago, bosque said:

Some thoughts are:

• Adding 'drop off more' to prevent through balls and balls over the top.
• Adding 'stop crosses' so our flank players are more aggressive. Or increase the trigger press of the flank players so they are more aggressive.
• Pushing the defensive line higher to have the entire team engaging the opposition a bit earlier and accepting the balls over the top.
• Dropping the mentality to balanced to push the entire team a bit back.
• Keeping everything the same and hoping the team can find some defensive consistency.

Any thoughts on how can I improve my defence?

• you could try it but don`t forget about downside - leaving more space between the lines. May not work with teams attacking through the middle. In FM23 this instruciton worked fine for me in 4-3-3 but DM protected the mid-space well.
• not the best idea in 4231 sttretching the d-line without protection in the middle. Increasing press intensity could work, but I would avoid it against top-class wide players.
• good idea If your defenders have good pace, acceleration and anticipation. But I would also suggest to drop down to mid-block in this case to creat congestion in the middle of the pitch. Combo Higher D-line - Mid-block worked great for me in fm23 but with 4-3-3.
• I dont think you will notice big difference in positioning your players out of posession with droping mentality. Probably your side will be quite less agressive pressing the opponent and less risky with the ball than on positive. 
• if you team cohesion and tactical familiarity is high then I doubt about you will concede less without any tweaks.

So in my experience proactive and high-pressing football with 4-2-3-1 will cost you some problems in defence anyway unless you have world-class players on each position.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Vladis

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, bosque said:

So far, I'm happy. Last season with this system, we finished 2nd in the Bundesliga, lost the DFB Pokal final against RB Leipzig, and managed to advance to the knockout stages of the Champions League. We achieved all the objectives, and this year we are having a similar campaign: 2nd in the league, advanced to the knockout stages of the CL, out of the DFB Pokal.

The system:

  Reveal hidden contents

However, in the second half of last season and during the first half of this season, we have been facing defensive problems; we can't stop conceding. We are doing well going forward, scoring goals in almost all games, but conceding in a lot of them too. The main problem is that most of the goals aren't from counter-attacks. They come from early crosses, through balls, and, to a lesser extent, from balls over the top. Most of the time, we are already in the defensive organization phase with the defense settled. My defenders have good mental attributes for the division (14-15 across the board, 13 being the minimum), and they are not slow. Not the fastest, but not turtles either.

The basic idea of our out-of-possession plan is working because our AM and ST are preventing the opposition from passing to the pivots, so more often than not, they have to attack down the flanks. However, somehow, we can't use the sideline to our advantage, and teams are finding time and space on the flanks to hurt us.

I have no idea how I can solve this because we don't look disorganized when defending, but we are leaky.

Some thoughts are:

• Adding 'drop off more' to prevent through balls and balls over the top.
• Adding 'stop crosses' so our flank players are more aggressive. Or increase the trigger press of the flank players so they are more aggressive.
• Pushing the defensive line higher to have the entire team engaging the opposition a bit earlier and accepting the balls over the top.
• Dropping the mentality to balanced to push the entire team a bit back.
• Keeping everything the same and hoping the team can find some defensive consistency.

Any thoughts on how can I improve my defence?

A couple of quick role fixes: 

BWM(d) gives you a double holding pivot and pairs excellently with the DLP(s), WB(s) stops asking the player to run to the byline like a WB(a), SK(d) removes “take more risks” from the goalkeeper. 
 

[bosque]

Thanks for the suggestions! @Cloud9 @StatboySpurs and @Vladis

I decided to start with drop off more and the role changes. 

The idea behind the DLP on the right was to hold position, cover for the WB attacking and combine with the IW. But I may be asking too much.

I only played one game with the tweaks and I feel the DLP (now on the left) is a little less bussy, the BWM(d) is helping the WB a bit more, and the team feels more organized. I will report again after a few more games.

PS: My centrebacks are good BPD profile players, I want to have one ball progresser on each line. On wich side is better to use the BPD?

[Mik_Fe]

Other side of DLP

[crusadertsar]

On 26/11/2023 at 13:56, bosque said:

So far, I'm happy. Last season with this system, we finished 2nd in the Bundesliga, lost the DFB Pokal final against RB Leipzig, and managed to advance to the knockout stages of the Champions League. We achieved all the objectives, and this year we are having a similar campaign: 2nd in the league, advanced to the knockout stages of the CL, out of the DFB Pokal.

The system:

  Hide contents

However, in the second half of last season and during the first half of this season, we have been facing defensive problems; we can't stop conceding. We are doing well going forward, scoring goals in almost all games, but conceding in a lot of them too. The main problem is that most of the goals aren't from counter-attacks. They come from early crosses, through balls, and, to a lesser extent, from balls over the top. Most of the time, we are already in the defensive organization phase with the defense settled. My defenders have good mental attributes for the division (14-15 across the board, 13 being the minimum), and they are not slow. Not the fastest, but not turtles either.

The basic idea of our out-of-possession plan is working because our AM and ST are preventing the opposition from passing to the pivots, so more often than not, they have to attack down the flanks. However, somehow, we can't use the sideline to our advantage, and teams are finding time and space on the flanks to hurt us.

I have no idea how I can solve this because we don't look disorganized when defending, but we are leaky.

Some thoughts are:

• Adding 'drop off more' to prevent through balls and balls over the top.
• Adding 'stop crosses' so our flank players are more aggressive. Or increase the trigger press of the flank players so they are more aggressive.
• Pushing the defensive line higher to have the entire team engaging the opposition a bit earlier and accepting the balls over the top.
• Dropping the mentality to balanced to push the entire team a bit back.
• Keeping everything the same and hoping the team can find some defensive consistency.

Any thoughts on how can I improve my defence?

It is generally a bad idea to add "drop off more" when you are trying to do a high press. If anything you might want to compress your defence and try to bully the opponent in front of you goal. One way to do that is using "mid block" combined with high line of defence or High press with highest defensive line. In both cases you want your defenders to "step up more". For this kind of strategy you DO need defenders who are quite fast, as stragglers will let goals in. Its very much high risk, high reward strategy. 

[bosque]

6 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

It is generally a bad idea to add "drop off more" when you are trying to do a high press. If anything you might want to compress your defence and try to bully the opponent in front of you goal. One way to do that is using "mid block" combined with high line of defence or High press with highest defensive line. In both cases you want your defenders to "step up more". For this kind of strategy you DO need defenders who are quite fast, as stragglers will let goals in. Its very much high risk, high reward strategy. 

Yes, this sounds very logical. I have a question though. I can't tell how high a player pace/acceleration needs to be to be considered fast. Is 13-14 enough? Or we are talking about 15-16 as a bare minimum?

And what is the best practice when your defenders aren't fast nor slow? Standard defensive line and mid-block?

[crusadertsar]

Just now, bosque said:

Yes, this sounds very logical. I have a question though. I can't tell how high a player pace/acceleration needs to be to be considered fast. Is 13-14 enough? Or we are talking about 15-16 as a bare minimum?

And what is the best practice when your defenders aren't fast nor slow? Standard defensive line and mid-block?

Depends on quality of league. For top five European leagues I would think 15-16 would be needed to keep up the elite attackers.

[StatboySpurs]

15 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

It is generally a bad idea to add "drop off more" when you are trying to do a high press. If anything you might want to compress your defence and try to bully the opponent in front of you goal. One way to do that is using "mid block" combined with high line of defence or High press with highest defensive line. In both cases you want your defenders to "step up more". For this kind of strategy you DO need defenders who are quite fast, as stragglers will let goals in. Its very much high risk, high reward strategy. 

That's probably right. I had success with it in FM23 for some reason, though it never made sense to me. So I stuck with it. Tried the same thing in FM24 and got burned.

[Prolix]

@bosque

If this was my save, my next step would be to experiment with removing high press and replacing with counter-press + drop off more. 

Basically making my pressing more situational (at the moment of transition, using the naturally top heavy positioning of the 4-2-3-1), but then asking my defenders to be more protective of the goal when the opponent has established possession. 

However this might be a stylistic change you don't desire. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Prolix

[bosque]

32 minutes ago, Prolix said:

@bosque

If this was my save, my next step would be to experiment with removing high press and replacing with counter-press + drop off more. 

Basically making my pressing more situational (at the moment of transition, using the naturally top heavy positioning of the 4-2-3-1), but then asking my defenders to be more protective of the goal when the opponent has established possession. 

However this might be a stylistic change you don't desire. 

It's a very interesting idea. The only thing that stops me from going midblock is that the tactical familiarity takes a big hit and I'm in a dog fight against Dortmund, Leipzig and Koln for Champions League place and I'm basically paralized on what to do. I feel like any thing I touch will end badly haha