Íbis Sport Club - The Attributeless, Blind Scouting, 5-2-2-1 Years!

[phnompenhandy]

20 minutes ago, Hovis Dexter said:

I find it very interesting that some very knowledgeable contributors play aspects of the game very differently. I'm thinking about @Cleon not using OIs and using the default set pieces whereas, on the other hand, @Rashidi makes use of OIs and creates his own set pieces. I guess it just goes to show that there many different ways of being successful at FM.

Very true. It's almost like we're real football managers!

[HanziZoloman]

@Cleon I am struggling with the tactic, checked all the parameters like you did here and it’s even worse I think or the same faults. Changed formation as described by you and still it’s hard to score a goal and the opponents got the lucky goal. 
our xG is usually higher than opponents.

question is as your blind on attributes (and I am not looking at them either) how do you decide your match squad?

training? Performance? 

[Cleon]

30 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

@Cleon I am struggling with the tactic, checked all the parameters like you did here and it’s even worse I think or the same faults. Changed formation as described by you and still it’s hard to score a goal and the opponents got the lucky goal. 
our xG is usually higher than opponents.

question is as your blind on attributes (and I am not looking at them either) how do you decide your match squad?

training? Performance? 

Constantly monitoring them yeah. And if anyone is playing bad in game, I sub them. I don't keep them on the pitch in the hope they get better.

How long have you been using the tactic? Are the players all full for the tactical familiarity for it and all the settings? If not that makes a huge difference.

[phnompenhandy]

11 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Constantly monitoring them yeah. And if anyone is playing bad in game, I sub them. I don't keep them on the pitch in the hope they get better.

To clarify, if I may, that means monitoring them with your own eyes. It often happens that a defender, for example, scores an og, gives away a penalty or is responsible for a goal early doors, and however well he plays subsequently, will be stuck on a 6.1 rating. They can get demoralised and play badly, in which case do get them off, but not always.

I might just add, it's not just the ratings you want to take with a pinch of salt. I'm playing a pair of wingbacks - according to the tactics screen, they each have one red slice of pie - i.e. my coaching staff are adamant they can't play wingback. Well, they are and they're doing very well. At my last club - similar level, similar reputation, in 8 months I never could get my wingbacks working effectively.

Edited February 6, 2023 by phnompenhandy

[Cleon]

13 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

To clarify, if I may, that means monitoring them with your own eyes. It often happens that a defender, for example, scores an og, gives away a penalty or is responsible for a goal early doors, and however well he plays subsequently, will be stuck on a 6.1 rating. They can get demoralised and play badly, in which case do get them off, but not always.

I might just add, it's not just the ratings you want to take with a pinch of salt. I'm playing a pair of wingbacks - according to the tactics screen, they each have one red slice of pie - i.e. my coaching staff are adamant they can't play wingback. Well, they are and they're doing very well. At my last club - similar level, similar reputation, in 8 months I never could get my wingbacks working effectively.

Like I've wrote about in the articles, context matters. It's no good looking at data, stats or ratings if you don't know the reasons behind why the data is that way. The way the game is going is vital to understanding things as is your own playstyle. Low data or low ratings doesn't mean the player is playing badly. Your playstyle can impact it. Like the bit I wrote about low defensive actions due to use having the ball more. The same should be applied to everything. I'm happy for a player to have a 6.1 rating if he's doing all the things I need of him. Usually creative players deep in your own half score really low ratings yet are vital cogs for keeping the ball moving and recycling possession, starting attacks.

Context is the most important thing.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Cleon

[HanziZoloman]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Cleon:

How long have you been using the tactic? Are the players all full for the tactical familiarity for it and all the settings? If not that makes a huge difference.

Almost full tactical familiarity and some games like five games.

Mostly the strikers misses his few opportunities, like three or four and I lose by header after a freekick or draw with no goals scored.

Many shots from outside the box by my midfielders and just few opportunities by opponents.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Cleon:

How long have you been using the tactic? Are the players all full for the tactical familiarity for it and all the settings? If not that makes a huge difference.

Almost full tactical familiarity and some games like five games.

Mostly the strikers misses his few opportunities, like three or four and I lose by header after a freekick or draw with no goals scored.

Many shots from outside the box by my midfielders and just few opportunities by opponents.

[crusadertsar]

20 hours ago, Cleon said:

I never touch or alter set pieces. They're just the defaults.

A man after my own heart! What?! Is there a set piece setting tab in the game  ?

Edited February 6, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

Almost full tactical familiarity and some games like five games.

Mostly the strikers misses his few opportunities, like three or four and I lose by header after a freekick or draw with no goals scored.

Many shots from outside the box by my midfielders and just few opportunities by opponents.

Look into why they're shooting outside the box and see if you can create better chances. 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Cleon:

Look into why they're shooting outside the box and see if you can create better chances. 

I‘d say poor decision, it looks a bit impatience what my men are doing. The play patiently around opponents midfield and in the final third, where my opponents build a shieldwall of players protecting dangerous zones the become impatient and take the next best shot.

Sometimes it works and my playmaker plays a deep ball but the striker is firing above or the keeper makes a gold safe (comments indicating).

I have many passes into final third (3rd) but no player ranking top in keypasses or final third passes or assists. 

[Sammie B]

On 23/01/2023 at 16:18, Cleon said:

I did yeah, I removed that. It's the reason why my striker scored a ridiculous amount. He doesn't take many shots still, it's just when he does, it's usually a goal.

The system itself is still largely the same in the way in functions at the start of the thread. It's just that I found the CM's were getting too close to the SS/AP even though slightly deeper. I felt the space was too close and taking away from the game of the AM's. So I decided to make them DM's instead just so everyone has more space to play in or drop into

Did you just remove work ball into box or did you also remove dribble less and change to just shorter passing rather than much shorter as well as mentioned earlier in the thread?

[Cleon]

9 hours ago, Sammie B said:

Did you just remove work ball into box or did you also remove dribble less and change to just shorter passing rather than much shorter as well as mentioned earlier in the thread?

I made all the changes I mentioned in the analysis piece

[HanziZoloman]

Now it’s working super fine and it’s almost not dependant on the players, whose attributes i try to ignore.

[Cleon]

39 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Now it’s working super fine and it’s almost not dependant on the players, whose attributes i try to ignore.

Did you make any changes? Or did you just give it time to settle down and let the players get used to it? The way the tactic is set up though, is to allow it to play the same way regardless of who is playing. It's a system first formation above the player and the players ability.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb Cleon:

Did you make any changes? Or did you just give it time to settle down and let the players get used to it? The way the tactic is set up though, is to allow it to play the same way regardless of who is playing. It's a system first formation above the player and the players ability.

I did a mistake and didn’t notice, had the pressing intensity on mid and pushed it on max, then everything was working out fine.

plus I changed some players, stats were indicating that we rely mostly on the left WBa and some flashes by the APs but nothing constant.

I tried some of the older players in AP and put my AP on SS because he was much more focused on scoring (giving away the ball often in AP).

Nobody seemed fit for the AP role. I then tried two youngsters (Attributes visible Vision and Passing 14) and they made the clock running. Now my team is unpredictable in attack and my AF is putting chances in like chips.

It’s much more fluid now, the passing maps look less static. Plus I can switch back to keeping the ball at all cost with some minor tweaks, against strong opposition or to protect a small lead.

It‘s amazing.

Edited February 11, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

@Cleon are there still players from the 1st or 2nd season?

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

@Cleon are there still players from the 1st or 2nd season?

In my side? Not now as I'm 19 seasons in. But when I went from the 6th to 1st tier, I had a few players for 3 or 4 seasons who I had from the 4th and 5th tier.

[mikcheck]

@Cleonnice to know that you keep playing and enjoying your save after 19 seasons.

I have a question about your selling/keeping players strategy. Do you impose any age limit to which you start selling players?  Or if you have an old player that is no longer important to you in terms of tactics but influent as a mentoring member, do you still keep him?

And when you buy someone, do you also have an age limit or you buy him no matter the age, as long as you think he will fit your tactic?

Thanks

Edited February 12, 2023 by mikcheck

[Cleon]

10 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

@Cleonnice to know that you keep playing and enjoying your save after 19 seasons.

I have a question about your selling/keeping players strategy. Do you impose any age limit to which you start selling players?  Or if you have an old player that is no longer important to you in terms of tactics but influent as a mentoring member, do you still keep him?

And when you buy someone, do you also have an age limit or you buy him no matter the age, as long as you think he will fit your tactic?

Thanks

My buying and selling strategy is sadly, nothing very exciting. Buying players is a bit tricky as I manually scout them. Not in the sense of finding a player I like the look of by checking his attributes or searching through teams. I mean more in the sense that as I'm attributeless, when i find a player who fits the data we've looked at, then I go and watch him play. I then rate them on the things I see. Then I decide if he fits what I'm looking for or not.

As for selling, I simply sell players who aren't playing/playing poor or no longer tactically fit what I need. Regardless of how influential they are. No point keeping players around who you aren't going to use imo.

Age doesn't come into it. That only comes into play for me when discussing contract length.

[Hovis Dexter]

Hi @Cleon as you are 19 seasons into this save can you give us some indication of the things that you delegate or ignore in the game. I do pretty much everything and spend far too much time playing the game and have just started my 7th season.

[Cleon]

6 minutes ago, Hovis Dexter said:

Hi @Cleon as you are 19 seasons into this save can you give us some indication of the things that you delegate or ignore in the game. I do pretty much everything and spend far too much time playing the game and have just started my 7th season.

I delegate press conferences and holiday between games to get to the next one faster. 

[Hovis Dexter]

@CleonThank you

[HanziZoloman]

@Cleon everything is working out fine so far. I have another question: how do you initially decide which of your youth prospects should play SS or AP in AM position?

I have to rely on my youth as 1860 has almost no money but bright prospects coming in. I have five promising AM and have to decide who is playing SS and who AP. I try to not look at attributes.

e.g. Luan Klose (son of the famous Miro) is starting a lot of games and scoring despite being a two star talent.

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

@Cleon everything is working out fine so far. I have another question: how do you initially decide which of your youth prospects should play SS or AP in AM position?

I have to rely on my youth as 1860 has almost no money but bright prospects coming in. I have five promising AM and have to decide who is playing SS and who AP. I try to not look at attributes.

e.g. Luan Klose (son of the famous Miro) is starting a lot of games and scoring despite being a two star talent.

Not to barge in...

• but a SS is a more physically demanding role, so if the player is quick and with an eye for goal he'll be a great fit. 
• An AP role doesn't have those requirements, and fits a player better in the buildup.

If you're not looking at attributes look at the statistics for progressive passes for the AP, pace you could probably get a feel for from watching in match. If you do look at attributes: pace/off the ball for SS, decisions/passing/vision for AP.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Cloud9

[phnompenhandy]

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Not to barge in...

• but a SS is a more physically demanding role, so if the player is quick and with an eye for goal he'll be a great fit. 
• An AP role doesn't have those requirements, and fits a player better in the buildup.

If you're not looking at attributes look at the statistics for progressive passes for the AP, pace you could probably get a feel for from watching in match. If you do look at attributes: pace/off the ball for SS, decisions/passing/vision for AP.

 

 

Following Cleon's and Jack Sarah's ideas, I've been using a shadow striker behind a front two with my (very) lower league sides. In all cases the player ought not suit the SS role, yet in all cases they do it very successfully.

[Cleon]

6 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

@Cleon everything is working out fine so far. I have another question: how do you initially decide which of your youth prospects should play SS or AP in AM position?

I have to rely on my youth as 1860 has almost no money but bright prospects coming in. I have five promising AM and have to decide who is playing SS and who AP. I try to not look at attributes.

e.g. Luan Klose (son of the famous Miro) is starting a lot of games and scoring despite being a two star talent.

Star rating doesn't mean much at all. It surely isn't an indicator on if the player can play the role or not. So I'd likely ignore star ratings too, it's another reason I had them removed from my save.

For me with being attributeless and having no star ratings, I watch them to see what they can do and then look at the data. This usually gives me a rough idea of if the player can play the role or not.

5 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Not to barge in...

• but a SS is a more physically demanding role, so if the player is quick and with an eye for goal he'll be a great fit. 
• An AP role doesn't have those requirements, and fits a player better in the buildup.

If you're not looking at attributes look at the statistics for progressive passes for the AP, pace you could probably get a feel for from watching in match. If you do look at attributes: pace/off the ball for SS, decisions/passing/vision for AP.

 

 

Not sure this is the best advice, especially the progressive passes bit. The player is likely too advanced to do many progressive passes. A progressive pass is typically made from a player's own half of the field to a player in the opposition's half of the field, with the intention of creating a goal-scoring opportunity or gaining territory on the field.  Or if in the oppositions half, a pass that is around 30 metres. What you need to do instead is focus on open play key passes per 90, chances created per 90 etc if you're looking at stats. 

I covered a lot of this, in this section of the series https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2023/01/10/fm23-match-analysis

2 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Following Cleon's and Jack Sarah's ideas, I've been using a shadow striker behind a front two with my (very) lower league sides. In all cases the player ought not suit the SS role, yet in all cases they do it very successfully.

This is the main thing for me. Any player can play any role. He will just play it differently than the next person. There's no such thing as a player can't play a certain role.

[Cloud9]

I barge out

Great shouts @Cleon@phnompenhandy, I've been experimenting with the SS AP (5-2-2-1) combo within in a low block so that may be skewing the stats for me a bit. Trying to get away from using the ubiquitous AF.

In general I look for off the ball/physicality for any role I stick on attack (I want to go fast) and decisions for the supporting roles (since I'm not specifically telling them to stay or go like an (a) or (d) role).

Edited February 17, 2023 by Cloud9

[Cleon]

32 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I barge out

Great shouts @Cleon@phnompenhandy, I've been experimenting with the SS AP (5-2-2-1) combo within in a low block so that may be skewing the stats for me a bit. Trying to get away from using the ubiquitous AF.

In general I look for off the ball/physicality for any role I stick on attack (I want to go fast) and decisions for the supporting roles (since I'm not specifically telling them to stay or go like an (a) or (d) role).

So was I at the start of the thread.

Do you have some stats to show for your AP and all the progressive passes? As something is off if he is getting a lot, means he is way deeper than he should be and spending the majority of his time in your own half.

[Cleon]

45 games, 17 goals and 35 assists for my AP

He has a few progressive passes from transitions as you'd expect but it's really low in general because he is a AM and isn't in a position to do them. Progressive passes is more useful as a metric for players who are constantly in your own half. So defenders, DM's, MC's etc.

Like these;

That's my central defender, look how many more he gets compared due to his positioning. The same with the DM's;

Any creative player or player in the AM slots should be the ones creating chances or scoring them rather than progressing the ball. So open play key passes p90, Xassists per 90, chances created per 90, are what they should be doing a lot of above all else. If they aren't doing that or have bad metrics for it, then it's worth investigating as something is fundamentally wrong. Even if you're successful, it still shows there is underlying issues. It's why I went hard and spoke about the changes in the analysis section. As I was still winning but the warning signs were all there.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Cleon

[phnompenhandy]

56 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I barge out

Great shouts @Cleon@phnompenhandy, I've been experimenting with the SS AP (5-2-2-1) combo within in a low block so that may be skewing the stats for me a bit. Trying to get away from using the ubiquitous AF.

In general I look for off the ball/physicality for any role I stick on attack (I want to go fast) and decisions for the supporting roles (since I'm not specifically telling them to stay or go like an (a) or (d) role).

I'd resisted going with an SS at the start because I'd tried one previously and it hadn't worked, so I stuck with AM and AP. When I tried again with Cleon's system is worked a treat. What this tells me is that it's very successful with in his system (and Jack Sarah's similar but different system) - i.e. formations, roles and duties are more or less successful depending on their relationships with the other roles and duties in the system.  The revelatory insight here is (for me), that the individual players' attributes are not the key factor in when you hit on a winning formula; it's the holistic system that gets you the results. This is in diametric contrast to the "received wisdom" with attributes the be-all-and-end-all. I'm enormously grateful to Cleon for opening my eyes to thinking about the game like this.

[Cleon]

26 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I'd resisted going with an SS at the start because I'd tried one previously and it hadn't worked, so I stuck with AM and AP. When I tried again with Cleon's system is worked a treat. What this tells me is that it's very successful with in his system (and Jack Sarah's similar but different system) - i.e. formations, roles and duties are more or less successful depending on their relationships with the other roles and duties in the system.  The revelatory insight here is (for me), that the individual players' attributes are not the key factor in when you hit on a winning formula; it's the holistic system that gets you the results. This is in diametric contrast to the "received wisdom" with attributes the be-all-and-end-all. I'm enormously grateful to Cleon for opening my eyes to thinking about the game like this.

Spot on. This tactic is all about the system over the individual. It doesn't really matter who plays the role, it will mostly function the same. Obviously better players will likely improve how it plays. But in terms of how it creates chances, score goals etc it should be the same across the board.

It's why the analysis side of things is vital, as you can see if something is working as intended or if you need to make adjustments both short-term and long-term.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb phnompenhandy:

Following Cleon's and Jack Sarah's ideas, I've been using a shadow striker behind a front two with my (very) lower league sides. In all cases the player ought not suit the SS role, yet in all cases they do it very successfully.

And how do you decide, you’re attributless too?

[phnompenhandy]

3 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

And how do you decide, you’re attributless too?

As Cleon says above, it doesn't matter. Without seeing the attributes, I can tell you that at my level, the players' CA is rarely above 5 as academy kids at amateur level, so the attributes are extremely low across the board. In my last game, I found myself without a right wingback and had to play a 17 year-old midfielder there. Thanks to the holistic system, he did fine.

[HanziZoloman]

@Cleon, @phnompenhandy & @Cloud9 thank you for replying, it all makes sense to me.

The AM players do not create enough OpenPlay Key Passes and create far too less chances. My most creative player is my DMs despite being 3rd in the league with final third passes.

My Defense is like a Swiss cheese full of holes. One long ball over the top and everything is burning. 
seems we are not capable playing like this, which should not be.
 

Edited February 17, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

Am 10.1.2023 um 15:00 schrieb Cleon:

One thing would be to pay more attention to what is happening during the game while it happens. If you see this happening in real-time, you can simply alter your press in general. As we use counter-press, I’d likely remove that and either leave it blank or ask the players to regroup. We’d still concede the same space but the two players who originally went to press the ball, would be in better positions centrally and able to pick up any runners.

Just found the caption 

@Cleon would love to hear more about Defense though, as it’s all very helpful.

My holes in the cheese are exactly what you describe.

@phnompenhandy you still use the defensive setup of Cleon‘s?

Edited February 18, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[phnompenhandy]

24 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Just found the caption 

@Cleon would love to hear more about Defense though, as it’s all very helpful.

My holes in the cheese are exactly what you describe.

@phnompenhandy you still use the defensive setup of Cleon‘s?

I kind of merged Cleon's with Jack Sarah's. I'm preparing a new career, but will use the same set-up. I think my last post with Polperro showed my tactics - the formation, roles, duties and all TIs (I don't use PIs)

Actually, it's worth spelling out here - I did my damnedest to sabotage that Polperro team in the end because we were winning too damned easily. And even though I got rid of most of my first team and called up raw kids in the final months, we still kept winning. It was crazy - BUT, what was the only constant? The tactics.

My new career (continuing in the same thread but with a new title) will be bumbling around the lowest regions of England, Scotland and 4 or 5 Asian nations on a personal odyssey. As I'll be moving on frequently, it won't be a youth save. I'll start afresh every year or two if I can, and everywhere I go the plan is to use this same tactical system. Will I be able to break it? Let's see!

Edited February 18, 2023 by phnompenhandy

[phnompenhandy]

@hanzizoloman       apologies, I don't think I did post my tactics. I'm in the editor right now trying to fix a mess of a fanmade db before I load it up, but I need to fire u the Polperro save to find out my exact manager attributes so I can carry them over to my new save. I'll copy my final tactics and post them in my thread - soon.

Edited February 18, 2023 by phnompenhandy

[HanziZoloman]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb phnompenhandy:

@hanzizoloman       apologies, I don't think I did post my tactics. I'm in the editor right now trying to fix a mess of a fanmade db before I load it up, but I need to fire u the Polperro save to find out my exact manager attributes so I can carry them over to my new save. I'll copy my final tactics and post them in my thread - soon.

Thank you! Big help just took a look. 
I’m getting thrashed all over no chance at all. I’m too stupid to make that tactic work

and I’m not into plug and play but try to react on what I see on the pitch. The result is the same, one ball from the wings to the central striker and 1:0 next they just score another goal by long ball from the wings to the central striker. My team struggle to keep possession, losing the ball by playing it into the opponents. My chances are wasted of course by stupidity 

the AP usually does not exist. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[phnompenhandy]

1 minute ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thank you! Big help just took a look. 
I’m getting thrashed all over no chance at all. I’m too stupid to make that tactic work

I use the new-fangled term "DNA". I think it's an appropriate word to describe it. It's not an instant plug-n-play method. It takes time to nurture into a squad including setting up the HoYD and youth programme, and having it transpire up the squad. Maybe it works best at the level of the lowest leagues, where you have the time to let a holistic system mature.

[Cleon]

22 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thank you! Big help just took a look. 
I’m getting thrashed all over no chance at all. I’m too stupid to make that tactic work

and I’m not into plug and play but try to react on what I see on the pitch. The result is the same, one ball from the wings to the central striker and 1:0 next they just score another goal by long ball from the wings to the central striker. My team struggle to keep possession, losing the ball by playing it into the opponents. My chances are wasted of course by stupidity 

the AP usually does not exist. 

Go back and watch the goals again where it's the same thing happening over and over. Then pause the game and look at your players positioning when the player who crosses the ball receives the ball (not crosses, but receives). This will tell you a lot about what is wrong and why it's being so successful.

The same thing when the AP gives the ball away. Pause it before he gets the ball and have a look around at how you are attacking and the players positioning. Then do it again before he passes the ball. This should help paint a clear picture and add context to why something is happening and then it's usually a quick, minor tweak to fix the issue.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Cleon:

Go back and watch the goals again where it's the same thing happening over and over. Then pause the game and look at your players positioning when the player who crosses the ball receives the ball (not crosses, but receives). This will tell you a lot about what is wrong and why it's being so successful.

The same thing when the AP gives the ball away. Pause it before he gets the ball and have a look around at how you are attacking and the players positioning. Then do it again before he passes the ball. This should help paint a clear picture and add context to why something is happening and then it's usually a quick, minor tweak to fix the issue.

Thanks @Cleon for taking the time to help. I‘ll report back. 
@phnompenhandy thank you as well, I’m digging into it. What are important things to check back on the issues you described?

My HOYD is Patrick Kluivert, it’s because of the name and some plus points like tiki-taka because I like the idea of the possession heavy issue described by cleon.
 

[HanziZoloman]

@Cleon Sorry to bother you again. I got rid of the crossing problem with using more of defensive TI‘s like drop off more often or trap outside/ inside. 
But the main problem is still the AP he doesn’t get involved in the play. Often the DMs takes a long ball on the AF or my team is looking for the SS. Main source of assists are the WB left and right. 
The AP is being ignored or often double marked out of the game and loses the ball after an opponent’s tackle. Looks like AP and VOL are very close together often the VOL gets the ball.

Edited February 18, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Cleon]

38 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

@Cleon Sorry to bother you again. I got rid of the crossing problem with using more of defensive TI‘s like drop off more often or trap outside/ inside. 
But the main problem is still the AP he doesn’t get involved in the play. Often the DMs takes a long ball on the AF or my team is looking for the SS. Main source of assists are the WB left and right. 
The AP is being ignored or often double marked out of the game and loses the ball after an opponent’s tackle. Looks like AP and VOL are very close together often the VOL gets the ball.

How are you set up? Post a screenshot of the settings you are using please 

[HanziZoloman]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Cleon:

How are you set up? Post a screenshot of the settings you are using please 

SS and AF are often the most dangerous players which is fine but the play is not pass & move but long balls over the opponents defense or low crosses by the WB (which is fine). My AP is completly isolated and mostly comes into play around MC position. After the play is rushing into final third with long balls and crosses and the AP is behind the play but the VOL is in front of him.

Note: most Open Play Key Passes has Wein who is usually played in DMs beside him no other player is in the league stats for OPKP/ xA or chances created. Wein usually hits the ball over the top of the opponents defense, like your WCB or BPD are supposed to do.

last five matches went fine but the feeling is bad, as opponents had usually sligthly better xG's. My striker is hot at the moment and giving opponents defenses headaches with his good movement and speed.

last match passing: the AP is out of play, chances are rare and the possesion based approach is not working completly as intended. Last match I dropped the counter-press due to headless chickens (you named it) which gave us more defensive solidity. 

After hitting get stuck in (since 5-6 matches) results were in favour, before I really had bad times.

Conclusion: it's like you said in the analysis, results are fine but the play is not looking as inteded and it's a matter of time when draws and losses will replace our winnings. Most headaches are with AP not in play and almost no through balls for the strikers, things you described with Cano are not happening here. Also I need more of the ball, my DM‘s are giving away possession with stupid mistake passes way too often. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Cloud9]

On 16/02/2023 at 21:26, Cleon said:

So was I at the start of the thread.

Do you have some stats to show for your AP and all the progressive passes? As something is off if he is getting a lot, means he is way deeper than he should be and spending the majority of his time in your own half.

Nope just eyeballing it, I've been playing with attributes visible. I'll do some number crunching on a save post Winter Update/post anything significant that comes up w the AP in a low block.

[Cleon]

Quote

SS and AF are often the most dangerous players which is fine but the play is not pass & move but long balls over the opponents defense or low crosses by the WB (which is fine). My AP is completly isolated and mostly comes into play around MC position. After the play is rushing into final third with long balls and crosses and the AP is behind the play but the VOL is in front of him.

Did you pause the game and look why he is being bypassed? Do any of the players have traits that are making him be bypassed as the setup above looks okay and he should be way more involved than he is.

Quote

Note: most Open Play Key Passes has Wein who is usually played in DMs beside him no other player is in the league stats for OPKP/ xA or chances created. Wein usually hits the ball over the top of the opponents defense, like your WCB or BPD are supposed to do.

The SV should be getting lots of key passes so that is good. But perhaps he is the player with traits that is stopping the AP from being as involved as he should be?

Quote

last five matches went fine but the feeling is bad, as opponents had usually sligthly better xG's. My striker is hot at the moment and giving opponents defenses headaches with his good movement and speed.

Nothing at all seems wrong here. From the feedback of the past 5 games you've played really well and haven't had many problems. Perhaps don't focus on the xG as much, as it's pretty pointless in FM imo.

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last match passing: the AP is out of play, chances are rare and the possesion based approach is not working completly as intended. Last match I dropped the counter-press due to headless chickens (you named it) which gave us more defensive solidity. 

You have to be really careful with the pass map and trying to gain context like you have above. I've posted lots of them in the thread where it says my player wasn't involved and was isolated yet scored 5 goals. Remember that certain players in the system are set up just to finish the chances or create them. So the pass map doesn't take this context and present it in anyway. It's fine for the striker to only pass the ball for 5 times for example if he is having shots and scoring the goals.

Quote

Conclusion: it's like you said in the analysis, results are fine but the play is not looking as inteded and it's a matter of time when draws and losses will replace our winnings. Most headaches are with AP not in play and almost no through balls for the strikers, things you described with Cano are not happening here. Also I need more of the ball, my DM‘s are giving away possession with stupid mistake passes way too often. 

You also need to put into perspective the context of how your season should be. Is 7th in the table heading into December not overachieving? 

And while I did say the analysis can provide issues long-term that need to be fixed. I did also state the idea of how you want to play is something that happens long-term not from the very start. It takes time to make the small tweaks you need to make.

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

Nope just eyeballing it, I've been playing with attributes visible. I'll do some number crunching on a save post Winter Update/post anything significant that comes up w the AP in a low block.

Okay but you said your player was doing it now. So you already have the data in the game and don't really have to number crunch. Just post the progressive passes data that he currently has. You can add it to your screen overview on the squad page etc. Or post the players graphs/polygon.

You mentioned you were experimenting with a low block and that's why the stats might be skewed. So on one hand you're saying you looked at the data and then when pressed on it and asked to show it, you say you're just eyeballing it. You really have to be careful posting stuff and passing it off as a fact and then turning around and making out it was just something you were eyeballing. As that is really misleading people and then people seeing it might take it as the truth when in reality, it likely isn't. That's how misinformation spreads and why people ask to post the data behind it.

[Cloud9]

35 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Okay but you said your player was doing it now. So you already have the data in the game and don't really have to number crunch. Just post the progressive passes data that he currently has. You can add it to your screen overview on the squad page etc. Or post the players graphs/polygon.

You mentioned you were experimenting with a low block and that's why the stats might be skewed. So on one hand you're saying you looked at the data and then when pressed on it and asked to show it, you say you're just eyeballing it. You really have to be careful posting stuff and passing it off as a fact and then turning around and making out it was just something you were eyeballing. As that is really misleading people and then people seeing it might take it as the truth when in reality, it likely isn't. That's how misinformation spreads and why people ask to post the data behind it.

• I'm giving my two cents to someone asking how they'd judge a player w/out attributes. That's a role and a play style I'm tinkering currently so It's applicable to them. If you don't like my approach and that I eyeball data that's fine. My opinion could be wrong, but I don't need to post a dissertation to offer what has worked in my experience.

With all due respect, you're bang out of order.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Cloud9

[Cleon]

22 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

• I'm giving my two cents to someone asking how they'd judge a player w/out statistics. That's a role and a play style I'm tinkering currently so It's applicable to them. If you don't like my approach to data and that I eyeball data that's fine. My opinion could be wrong, but I don't need to post a dissertation to have offer what has worked in my experience.

With all due respect, you're bang out of order.

Out of order for asking you to post proof, for something that shouldn't happen with the players in the AM slot, in my thread? Give over with yourself. You can't just go around making claims without showing the data. You don't have to post a dissertation, it's literally one metric  You said you'd looked at data and now you haven't its just an opinion. That's fine. But that's how the internet and message boards and discussions works. It's not applicable to them as it shouldn't be happening. They're too advanced to get lots of progressive passes, so it's an awful metric to judge the player on. 

The data you have in game should not be listing progressive passes as a high metric for anyone in the AM slots. You said your data showed they do, I clearly asked you to post it as you said your data was likely skewed from playing a low-block. But again, that really shouldn't matter at all.

It's strange eyeballing data though when the game tells you the metrics and data already though and is factual.

If you don't like it, then perhaps don't engage in my topics where I press and challenge things like this.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Cleon

[Cloud9]

6 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Out of order for asking you to post proof, for something that shouldn't happen with the players in the AM slot, in my thread? Give over with yourself. You can't just go around making claims without showing the data. You don't have to post a dissertation, it's literally one metric  You said you'd looked at data and now you haven't its just an opinion. That's fine. But that's how the internet and message boards and discussions works. It's not applicable to them as it shouldn't be happening. They're too advanced to get lots of progressive passes, so it's an awful metric to judge the player on. 

The data you have in game should not be listing progressive passes as a high metric for anyone in the AM slots. You said your data showed they do, I clearly asked you to post it as you said your data was likely skewed from playing a low-block. But again, that really shouldn't matter at all.

It's strange eyeballing data though when the game tells you the metrics and data already though and is factual.

If you don't like it, then perhaps don't engage in my topics where I press and challenge things like this.

Disappointing behavior from a leader in the community.

It's bizarre that you're convinced I'm pretending to use data and sowing misinformation.

Ciao 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Cloud9