Problem with Pep/Barca style 433

[ElJefe4]

Hi all, I know it's not exactly the most original idea in the world but I'm currently working on a recreation of Pep's great Barcelona team. Specifically around the 2010/11 season.

I'm about halfway through my first season and while there are plenty of issues at the moment, the results on the whole have been fine.

I'm not expecting scintillating attacking football straight away as there's a fair few players who either don't suit the style of play or aren't up to scratch.

One area that should be fairly strong, however, is the midfield. The aim is to have Busquets obviously in his own role. de Jong is first choice for the Xavi role as the heartbeat of the team and then Pedri is my Iniesta as the more advanced of the midfield three. Couple of things to note:

- Frenkie is currently injured so Gavi (#16) is deputising for him.
- The midfield is flipped, i.e. Pedri (Iniesta) is playing RCM as opposed to LCM. 

My main issue is that I'm seeing very little in terms of link up between the midfield, particularly between the Xavi and Iniesta roles.

According to the analysis they only combined 5 times in our last match. Admittedly, it was Real Madrid away, hence why we're quite deep. But I'd still expect far more passes between these two.

My set up is currently as follows:

Does anyone have any ideas how I can get my Xavi/Iniesta combination linking up more?

I'm thinking the obvious thing to do would be to change Pedri's role to one without 'Stay Wider' hard-coded so that the distance between them is reduced. My alternatives would be:

- Central Midfielder (Support) and use PIs such as Get Further Forward, Move Into Channels etc. Even with these PIs though I've often found that this role isn't aggressive enough in joining the final third. Possibly some alterations to Pedri's player traits could help here.

- Central Midfielder (Attack) is definitely aggressive enough in terms of movement but I've found that the role doesn't get involved too much with build up play and effectively becomes exclusively a third man runner into the box. 

- Advanced Playmaker (Support) is another option but Get Further Forward isn't an option. This was definitely part of Iniesta game in my opinion.

- Advanced Playmaker (Attack) maybe? I'm not actually a huge fan of having 2 playmakers. I feel like it might slow us down too much if I have two players who effectively act as ball magnets. But given my lack of success with other options it might be worth trying.

 

Would really appreciate people's thoughts on this. Also, if there's anything which looks off in the rest of the set up, team instructions, player roles etc, please share your thoughts!

[coach vahid]

It will be bad to try midfield whith 2 MC support ?

With for the Xavi role :

- Roam from position, Dribble less...

And for the Iniesta role :

- Roam from position, Move into channels...

Play more with the personnal instructions on a generic role than the script role, maybe ?

Everybody will happy to succeed...

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by coach vahid

[robot_skeleton]

10 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Hi all, I know it's not exactly the most original idea in the world but I'm currently working on a recreation of Pep's great Barcelona team. Specifically around the 2010/11 season.

I'm about halfway through my first season and while there are plenty of issues at the moment, the results on the whole have been fine.

I'm not expecting scintillating attacking football straight away as there's a fair few players who either don't suit the style of play or aren't up to scratch.

One area that should be fairly strong, however, is the midfield. The aim is to have Busquets obviously in his own role. de Jong is first choice for the Xavi role as the heartbeat of the team and then Pedri is my Iniesta as the more advanced of the midfield three. Couple of things to note:

- Frenkie is currently injured so Gavi (#16) is deputising for him.
- The midfield is flipped, i.e. Pedri (Iniesta) is playing RCM as opposed to LCM. 

My main issue is that I'm seeing very little in terms of link up between the midfield, particularly between the Xavi and Iniesta roles.

 

Looking at your pass map there is noticeably fewer passess between your F9 and and anybody else, especially so your midfield. My suggestion would be to slow down a little, seems like your team goes wide and rushing play with the two attacking wingers. Set them to support, see how they link up and may be try to temper the team instructions. Much shorter passes? Is that necessary? That's where I would start.

[Overmars]

I think you have to use the HB role since it was essentially created for this tactic. I also think much lower tempo is probably most on brand with this tactic, though it might not work too great in a match engine that tends to favour higher tempo stuff. You might consider giving your players more creative freedom too.

[ElJefe4]

1 hour ago, coach vahid said:

It will be bad to try midfield whith 2 MC support ?

With for the Xavi role :

- Roam from position, Dribble less...

And for the Iniesta role :

- Roam from position, Move into channels...

Play more with the personnal instructions on a generic role than the script role, maybe ?

Everybody will happy to succeed...

 

 

That's definitely an option. I've struggled to get enough attacking movements out of a Central Midfielder on Support even with PIs, but a combination of PIs and the correct player traits might work. Thanks!

53 minutes ago, robot_skeleton said:

Looking at your pass map there is noticeably fewer passess between your F9 and and anybody else, especially so your midfield. My suggestion would be to slow down a little, seems like your team goes wide and rushing play with the two attacking wingers. Set them to support, see how they link up and may be try to temper the team instructions. Much shorter passes? Is that necessary? That's where I would start.

Yeah I was going to mention that as well. I'm thinking of teaching Fati (my false nine) to come deep to get the ball so he pops up in midfield more often. I'll try the lower tempo first and see if that helps.

And I agree regarding the Support duties on the wide forwards. I initially wanted Fati (Messi) to play as a SS (A) in the AMC slot with the inside forwards on Support but I wasn't a fan of how it played out (opposition line pushed up and led to lots of low % chipped 'through balls' to wingers) so I switched to F9. I was worried that having a F9 and 2 wide players all on Support duties would lead to a lack of penetration, combining this with a lower tempo could make this worse?

I do have my wide forwards learning to beat the offside trap though so that would still encourage runs in behind. I'll try the shorter passing as opposed to much shorter as well. Do you think Pass Into Space could help with through balls/runs in behind or would this be overkill on the TIs? Also not sure if it only comes into effect in the final third or if it'd lead to too many risky passes in the middle third as well. Really appreciate the input.

4 minutes ago, Overmars said:

I think you have to use the HB role since it was essentially created for this tactic. I also think much lower tempo is probably most on brand with this tactic, though it might not work too great in a match engine that tends to favour higher tempo stuff. You might consider giving your players more creative freedom too.

I did start with a HB but I found that it struggled to actually progress the ball that much. I'd see lots of aimless passing between the HB and 2 CBs and once we had the ball in midfield Busquets wasn't really supporting the play enough at the base of the midfield. Definitely a useful option if I was playing against a 2 man strike force though.

Lower tempo seems to be the consensus here as well so I'll give that a go, thanks mate!

[The3points]

It seems like the RPM drifts wide a bit so maybe a CM-S could work like others have said or maybe a DLP-S

[levo in da house]

6 saat önce, coach vahid said:

2 MC destekli orta sahayı denemek kötü olur mu?

Xavi rolü için :

- Konumdan dolaş, daha az top sür...

Ve Iniesta rolü için :

- Konumdan dolaş, Kanallara geç...

Genel bir rolle ilgili kişisel talimatlarla, senaryo rolünden daha fazla oynayın, belki?

Başarılı olmaktan herkes mutlu olacak...

 

 

+ hold shape and very slow pace

maybe they can make a few games.

[04texag]

I did a thread exploring how to tactically recreate this. There's some good reasoning behind what I tried there and others in the community with valuable alternative suggestions as well. May be worth a read. 

I did settle on a HB-d although others argued against it. I was happy with my midfield three and with the SS ina striker less instead of a F9. 

 

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/544815-tactical-series-guardiola-evolution-class-3-teams-3-styles/

[ElJefe4]

2 hours ago, 04texag said:

I did a thread exploring how to tactically recreate this. There's some good reasoning behind what I tried there and others in the community with valuable alternative suggestions as well. May be worth a read. 

I did settle on a HB-d although others argued against it. I was happy with my midfield three and with the SS ina striker less instead of a F9. 

 

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/544815-tactical-series-guardiola-evolution-class-3-teams-3-styles/

I'll give it a read through tonight, cheers mate!

I definitely would like to play a strikerless 433 with my Messi player joining in with the midfield, picking up the ball and then driving forward. @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! advocated it in his excellent thread - 

Unfortunately, when playing a strikerless version I often find myself with the following situation:

With either of my wide forwards attempting fairly low percentage cross field passes to try and exploit the space behind the opposition back line which has been caused by them pushing up due to having no striker to mark.

[mp_87]

It remains that playing in this style on FM is extremely tough. We've all tried to recreate it a lot over the years. There is a lot there that I'd personally disagree with, especially when emulating the Pep-Barca side you mention. Obviously that team was now over a decade ago, but from what I'd recall I'd say:

- I don't think the mentality was that high. Others will disagree.

- Get rid of underlaps (This wasn't a specific of their play). Get rid of play narrow (I don't think they did). Get rid of focus through the middle (I'll come back to this).

- Definitely not two BPD, arguably zero. Puyol/Mascherano role was just to simply pass the ball to better players. Pique maybe but again he mostly used the ball simply and I think traits cover his licence to be a little more adventurous.

- Wingbacks. Abidal was largely much more conservative and some games sat and made a back three. FB (support) for me with situational instructions. Alves role very difficult to replicate. Probably needs an attack duty but on FM they're all to one-dimensionally run/cross spam.

- Others have always disagreed on this, but I personally play a flat midfield three. I can get depth/staggering in the midfield via roles/instructions. I have always found it drags the defensive line up even higher (which I'm ok with, especially replicating this), and playing a three means the outside midfielders are pushed wider into the half spaces naturally. Busquets was only Halfback in certain games/situations.

- Xavi and Iniesta.... Iniesta wasn't a playmaker for me, I also don't think he's a Mezzala, I've always played him as a CM (attack) but this is now far too aggressive a role in the last edition of FM. Xavi no way was a RP, maybe a DLP (but did get forward more than that role does), and personally I have always used a CM (support) with tonnes of freedom to dictate the play using his absolutely god-like technical and mental abilities.

- Pedro and Villa roles are, and have always been, impossible to recreate on FM. But both spent large parts of the game pinned to the touchline providing lots of width. Helped rotate the ball and picked their moments to dart in behind or attack the box. On a lot of FM editions I have found the WM role arguably provides the best variations/possibilities for their play, but that really is too deep for how they did play IRL.

- Messi. I am in the camp of AM strata with an attack duty.

 

Don't think you need to set up with loads of playmakers, if any, to get the desired play. The right roles and instructions and I have always found the play will go through the midfield quad with lots of passes and involvements.

Also think that Barca team did have a bias/tilt towards the right hand side. Messi-Xavi-Alves with Pedro and Pique supporting, the play and combo's were often on that side. Iniesta tried to hold wider and exploit the left half space, whilst Villa was used to switch the play or find on an out-to-in run in behind or attacking the box at the back post.

 

[ElJefe4]

4 hours ago, mp_87 said:

It remains that playing in this style on FM is extremely tough. We've all tried to recreate it a lot over the years. There is a lot there that I'd personally disagree with, especially when emulating the Pep-Barca side you mention. Obviously that team was now over a decade ago, but from what I'd recall I'd say:

- I don't think the mentality was that high. Others will disagree.

- Get rid of underlaps (This wasn't a specific of their play). Get rid of play narrow (I don't think they did). Get rid of focus through the middle (I'll come back to this).

- Definitely not two BPD, arguably zero. Puyol/Mascherano role was just to simply pass the ball to better players. Pique maybe but again he mostly used the ball simply and I think traits cover his licence to be a little more adventurous.

- Wingbacks. Abidal was largely much more conservative and some games sat and made a back three. FB (support) for me with situational instructions. Alves role very difficult to replicate. Probably needs an attack duty but on FM they're all to one-dimensionally run/cross spam.

- Others have always disagreed on this, but I personally play a flat midfield three. I can get depth/staggering in the midfield via roles/instructions. I have always found it drags the defensive line up even higher (which I'm ok with, especially replicating this), and playing a three means the outside midfielders are pushed wider into the half spaces naturally. Busquets was only Halfback in certain games/situations.

- Xavi and Iniesta.... Iniesta wasn't a playmaker for me, I also don't think he's a Mezzala, I've always played him as a CM (attack) but this is now far too aggressive a role in the last edition of FM. Xavi no way was a RP, maybe a DLP (but did get forward more than that role does), and personally I have always used a CM (support) with tonnes of freedom to dictate the play using his absolutely god-like technical and mental abilities.

- Pedro and Villa roles are, and have always been, impossible to recreate on FM. But both spent large parts of the game pinned to the touchline providing lots of width. Helped rotate the ball and picked their moments to dart in behind or attack the box. On a lot of FM editions I have found the WM role arguably provides the best variations/possibilities for their play, but that really is too deep for how they did play IRL.

- Messi. I am in the camp of AM strata with an attack duty.

 

Don't think you need to set up with loads of playmakers, if any, to get the desired play. The right roles and instructions and I have always found the play will go through the midfield quad with lots of passes and involvements.

Also think that Barca team did have a bias/tilt towards the right hand side. Messi-Xavi-Alves with Pedro and Pique supporting, the play and combo's were often on that side. Iniesta tried to hold wider and exploit the left half space, whilst Villa was used to switch the play or find on an out-to-in run in behind or attacking the box at the back post.

 

Nice post. Interestingly, I actually made some of the changes you've recommended last night but haven't had a chance to test them in game yet.

Mentality - I personally believe Positive mentality is ideal based on the description the game gives: "it aims to move the ball around the park and to patiently probe the final third to find space as and when it opens up." With a lower mentality I feel as though I'd have to introduce more attack duties which I don't think suits the style of play.

Underlaps - This is one that I have removed. It was initially done to pre-emptively reduce the amount of crosses but seeing as I already have Work Ball Into Box selected, it's probably overkill on the TIs.

Width and Focus Play - This is an area that I admittedly haven't quite wrapped my head around. I'm aware that Pep's idea is to make the pitch as wide as possible in possession, i.e. wide forwards stay high and wide, pinning back the opposition full backs, involve themselves in build up play at times but also threaten in behind and in doing so, create more room for central players such as Xavi, Iniesta and Messi.

Based on the game description of Fairly Narrow "This instructs players to look to narrow the field and play in the middle of the pitch." The key here for me was that it encourages us to play in the middle of the pitch. My logic was/is that this instruction, combined with my wide forwards having the 'Stay Wider' PI and Breaks Offside Trap player trait, would mean that we would retain width and threat in behind through them but would be more likely to favour our central players in terms of build up play.

My (perhaps incorrect) understanding was that my selecting Fairly Wide or above would encourage us to move the ball down the flanks too often. Can anyone confirm this either way? Worth noting also that Fairly Narrow on a Positive mentality seems, to my eyes at least, to be the same as Standard width on a Balanced mentality. Again, not sure if what is displayed by the UI directly correlates to the Match Engine here so if anyone could confirm that would be great.

Centre Back Roles - I completely get the logic on this one. However, my centre backs do currently have the highest pass completion % in my squad, so it doesn't seem to make a huge difference as far as I can tell.

Wing Back Roles - Again, completely agree. I'm using Alba as the more attacking of the full backs with Wing Back (Support), as you say the Alves role is maybe impossible to replicate in the Match Engine as he was such a unique footballer. Last night I changed the RB role to Full Back (Support) to replicate the difference between Alves and Abidal. Unfortunately my first choice RB is Sergino Dest who has Get Further Forward as a player trait but hopefully we see some change.

Flat Midfield Three - Not something I'd considered to be honest. I assume you would be recommending Busquets as a Central Midfielder (Defend)?

Xavi and Iniesta and Playmaker Roles - I've definitely gone away from the idea as Iniesta (Pedri) as a Mezzala, while it's a very effective role in the Match Engine and does provide some of what I would like, it feels far too detached from the rest of the midfield for my liking. I have the same problem, as you mentioned, with the aggressive nature of Central Midfielder (Attack). I did consider Advanced Playmaker (Attack) but I'm currently undecided on whether to use that role or to go with Central Midfielder (Support) with PIs such as Get Further Forward, Dribble More etc.

With Xavi, it's interesting that you say you wouldn't consider him a Roaming Playmaker, but would instead use him as a Central Midfielder (Support). Would you recommend any PIs here or would you expect his positioning in the middle of a possession heavy team to see him orchestrate the play enough anyway? If I feel as though he doesn't have enough influence I may revert to Deep Lying Playmaker (Support).

Wide Forwards - For me, Pedro and Villa have to be Inside Forwards. I've found that with the Stay Wider PI they hold plenty of width in the build up phase. My only question mark is if they should be on Support or Attack. This largely depends on what I do with my striker...

Messi - I too would prefer to see him in the AMC position, but I find it impossible to pin teams back when there is no striker for the opposition to mark. They push high up, the midfield becomes completely congested and impossible to play through (see screenshot on my previous post) and we resort to chipping the ball over the top into space. Unfortunately, the F9 is nowhere near aggressive enough and doesn't provide much of a goal threat for me. Really not sure how to resolve this one. 

 

[herne79]

This is perhaps the best thread looking to create a tactical system based on that Barcelona era: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/219564-the-barcelona-style-my-interpretation/

It’s an old topic now but the fundamentals remain sound.  I’d probably try the Iniesta role as a Mezz attack rather than the AP attack mentioned (the Mezz role didn’t exist back then) and I’d want to make sure that whoever plays the Messi role up top has the Trait to come deep to get the ball.

I’m sure there’d be a couple of other things to tweak as well but it might give you some further ideas 👍.

[coach vahid]

Il y a 2 heures, ElJefe4 a dit :

Nice post. Interestingly, I actually made some of the changes you've recommended last night but haven't had a chance to test them in game yet.

Mentality - I personally believe Positive mentality is ideal based on the description the game gives: "it aims to move the ball around the park and to patiently probe the final third to find space as and when it opens up." With a lower mentality I feel as though I'd have to introduce more attack duties which I don't think suits the style of play.

Underlaps - This is one that I have removed. It was initially done to pre-emptively reduce the amount of crosses but seeing as I already have Work Ball Into Box selected, it's probably overkill on the TIs.

Width and Focus Play - This is an area that I admittedly haven't quite wrapped my head around. I'm aware that Pep's idea is to make the pitch as wide as possible in possession, i.e. wide forwards stay high and wide, pinning back the opposition full backs, involve themselves in build up play at times but also threaten in behind and in doing so, create more room for central players such as Xavi, Iniesta and Messi.

Based on the game description of Fairly Narrow "This instructs players to look to narrow the field and play in the middle of the pitch." The key here for me was that it encourages us to play in the middle of the pitch. My logic was/is that this instruction, combined with my wide forwards having the 'Stay Wider' PI and Breaks Offside Trap player trait, would mean that we would retain width and threat in behind through them but would be more likely to favour our central players in terms of build up play.

My (perhaps incorrect) understanding was that my selecting Fairly Wide or above would encourage us to move the ball down the flanks too often. Can anyone confirm this either way? Worth noting also that Fairly Narrow on a Positive mentality seems, to my eyes at least, to be the same as Standard width on a Balanced mentality. Again, not sure if what is displayed by the UI directly correlates to the Match Engine here so if anyone could confirm that would be great.

Centre Back Roles - I completely get the logic on this one. However, my centre backs do currently have the highest pass completion % in my squad, so it doesn't seem to make a huge difference as far as I can tell.

Wing Back Roles - Again, completely agree. I'm using Alba as the more attacking of the full backs with Wing Back (Support), as you say the Alves role is maybe impossible to replicate in the Match Engine as he was such a unique footballer. Last night I changed the RB role to Full Back (Support) to replicate the difference between Alves and Abidal. Unfortunately my first choice RB is Sergino Dest who has Get Further Forward as a player trait but hopefully we see some change.

Flat Midfield Three - Not something I'd considered to be honest. I assume you would be recommending Busquets as a Central Midfielder (Defend)?

Xavi and Iniesta and Playmaker Roles - I've definitely gone away from the idea as Iniesta (Pedri) as a Mezzala, while it's a very effective role in the Match Engine and does provide some of what I would like, it feels far too detached from the rest of the midfield for my liking. I have the same problem, as you mentioned, with the aggressive nature of Central Midfielder (Attack). I did consider Advanced Playmaker (Attack) but I'm currently undecided on whether to use that role or to go with Central Midfielder (Support) with PIs such as Get Further Forward, Dribble More etc.

With Xavi, it's interesting that you say you wouldn't consider him a Roaming Playmaker, but would instead use him as a Central Midfielder (Support). Would you recommend any PIs here or would you expect his positioning in the middle of a possession heavy team to see him orchestrate the play enough anyway? If I feel as though he doesn't have enough influence I may revert to Deep Lying Playmaker (Support).

Wide Forwards - For me, Pedro and Villa have to be Inside Forwards. I've found that with the Stay Wider PI they hold plenty of width in the build up phase. My only question mark is if they should be on Support or Attack. This largely depends on what I do with my striker...

Messi - I too would prefer to see him in the AMC position, but I find it impossible to pin teams back when there is no striker for the opposition to mark. They push high up, the midfield becomes completely congested and impossible to play through (see screenshot on my previous post) and we resort to chipping the ball over the top into space. Unfortunately, the F9 is nowhere near aggressive enough and doesn't provide much of a goal threat for me. Really not sure how to resolve this one. 

 

For the wide forwards, you can try the winger role support with opposite foot. Maybe just go forwards on PI. Try it.