Playing On The Edge: Dominating Possession with only one CB

[TheWill3737]

10 hours ago, gam945 said:

Really nice thread and ideas here...

My love of Dutch Total football and German Gegenpressing combined to my stubbornness to use 4-4-2 actually led me to try form this 3-3-1-3 shape from...a 4-4-2.

So here's my idea:

First draft of the tactic would be:

	F9-su
		AM-at
IW-su	DLP-de	CAR-su	W-su
FB-su	BDP-de	BPD-co	IWB-de

It may yield to an asymmetrical diamond, but I think this could be attenuated by having different type of players in each sides...anyway for now it's just a seed of an idea...

I'm actually curious if any have tried to get the 3-3-1-3 from another formation...

I think that you have to try and create a tactic with one centerback as it is the main aim of this thread! More specifically toying around with the tactic created by the OP. 

Otherwise, for your tactic I believe you should try to focus play on the left so that you can create a third man through an effective overload on the right. I also suggest you try changing the DR-IWB to S instead of D. This would help get him further up the pitch while the ball is on the left hand side so that the winger and the rightback create that much adored overload on the right handside. Another thing I would try out would be to change the AM to a LCAM just behind the F9 and change him to an advanced playmaker support. This would lead to more passes on the left hand side and drag more players towards the passes again helping to create that right handside overload. Of course, I haven't tested any of this out and I am going on a limb here but it could work. 

Let me know how it goes and whether my suggestions created more good than bad! KEEP TWEAKING! :P

[crusadertsar]

15 minutes ago, TheWill3737 said:

Does the game allow for a Libero to be played without a centerback to the left and to the right?

It does but only when you play them off-centre I'm pretty sure.

[TheWill3737]

2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

It does but only when you play them off-centre I'm pretty sure.

Just checked it now, you can play a Libero in central defence without any other centerbacks if he is positioned in the middle of the centerback pairing. It IS an option guys hahahahaha 

[crusadertsar]

11 minutes ago, TheWill3737 said:

Just checked it now, you can play a Libero in central defence without any other centerbacks if he is positioned in the middle of the centerback pairing. It IS an option guys hahahahaha 

Oh right! I was confused. Thought your question was whether you can play libero with only one centreback partner.

@TheWill3737 although I wouldn't use a libero in this formation. You will be opening yourself up too much defensively. But you can test it and see for yourself I guess.

Edited January 28, 2021 by crusadertsar

[TheWill3737]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

Oh right! I was confused. Thought your question was whether you can play libero with only one centreback partner.

So if this was done, your tactic could be changed to Libero(A) and DC-R(C). IWB-L(S) and IWB-R(S). CM(S) and CM(S). IW-L(A) and IW-R(A). F9(S).

[RenegadeMaster]

I made some tweaks to the set up as you can see below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did try using the second striker again as I was not scoring goals, however he was not doing anything so I changed back to the AM. Possession stats are back up to 65-70% per game after a big dip last season and pre tweak. These are the results so far:

I have a nagging feeling that long term it is going to be very difficult for this tactic to be successful mainly due to the opposition sitting back and hitting a long ball up and behind the sole CB. This was the case in my only two league defeats so far and they also happen to be against two of the better teams in the league - dominate the game, fail to take chances and get caught on the counter. Average positions of most games there is a diamond in the midfield other than the AZ game where we just got pulled to bits and the average positions is all over the place. 

[crusadertsar]

22 minutes ago, RenegadeMaster said:

I made some tweaks to the set up as you can see below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did try using the second striker again as I was not scoring goals, however he was not doing anything so I changed back to the AM. Possession stats are back up to 65-70% per game after a big dip last season and pre tweak. These are the results so far:

I have a nagging feeling that long term it is going to be very difficult for this tactic to be successful mainly due to the opposition sitting back and hitting a long ball up and behind the sole CB. This was the case in my only two league defeats so far and they also happen to be against two of the better teams in the league - dominate the game, fail to take chances and get caught on the counter. Average positions of most games there is a diamond in the midfield other than the AZ game where we just got pulled to bits and the average positions is all over the place. 

Yup I'm starting to see that sides sitting back and playing "anti-football" is beginning to be the same problem it was on FM20  Especially when trying to play Possession-heavy style. It's too bad because this can be a fun tactic when your reputation is not too high and the opposition is more open. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by crusadertsar

[RealDeal_3]

11 hours ago, gam945 said:

Really nice thread and ideas here...

My love of Dutch Total football and German Gegenpressing combined to my stubbornness to use 4-4-2 actually led me to try form this 3-3-1-3 shape from...a 4-4-2.

So here's my idea:

First draft of the tactic would be:

	F9-su
		AM-at
IW-su	DLP-de	CAR-su	W-su
FB-su	BDP-de	BPD-co	IWB-de

It may yield to an asymmetrical diamond, but I think this could be attenuated by having different type of players in each sides...anyway for now it's just a seed of an idea...

I'm actually curious if any have tried to get the 3-3-1-3 from another formation...

I created a 3313 shale from a 442 on fm 18 I think. I was inspired by Luis Enrique toward the end of his time and Barca. It worked out pretty well and was extremely fun. I haven’t been able to get it to work the same since. I’m not the best tactician so I’m sure someone better than me could get in clicking. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by RealDeal_3

[TheWill3737]

22 minutes ago, RenegadeMaster said:

I made some tweaks to the set up as you can see below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did try using the second striker again as I was not scoring goals, however he was not doing anything so I changed back to the AM. Possession stats are back up to 65-70% per game after a big dip last season and pre tweak. These are the results so far:

I have a nagging feeling that long term it is going to be very difficult for this tactic to be successful mainly due to the opposition sitting back and hitting a long ball up and behind the sole CB. This was the case in my only two league defeats so far and they also happen to be against two of the better teams in the league - dominate the game, fail to take chances and get caught on the counter. Average positions of most games there is a diamond in the midfield other than the AZ game where we just got pulled to bits and the average positions is all over the place. 

Lets be realistic here. 

 

22 minutes ago, RenegadeMaster said:

I made some tweaks to the set up as you can see below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did try using the second striker again as I was not scoring goals, however he was not doing anything so I changed back to the AM. Possession stats are back up to 65-70% per game after a big dip last season and pre tweak. These are the results so far:

I have a nagging feeling that long term it is going to be very difficult for this tactic to be successful mainly due to the opposition sitting back and hitting a long ball up and behind the sole CB. This was the case in my only two league defeats so far and they also happen to be against two of the better teams in the league - dominate the game, fail to take chances and get caught on the counter. Average positions of most games there is a diamond in the midfield other than the AZ game where we just got pulled to bits and the average positions is all over the place. 

I think from a realistic point of view playing with one centerback is possible only if you have a 5 star centreback with technicals, mentals and physicals averaging 16 for a ball playing defender. The only way I see this working would be with two cdms playings as halfbacks acting as a false backline. The centerback would effectively play as a sweeper. Very similar to how RDF tactics set up his Arsenal side to play with one centerback. 

[crusadertsar]

6 minutes ago, TheWill3737 said:

Lets be realistic here. 

 

I think from a realistic point of view playing with one centerback is possible only if you have a 5 star centreback with technicals, mentals and physicals averaging 16 for a ball playing defender. The only way I see this working would be with two cdms playings as halfbacks acting as a false backline. The centerback would effectively play as a sweeper. Very similar to how RDF tactics set up his Arsenal side to play with one centerback. 

Well actually the problem that we are facing is more not about leaking goals but not scoring enough. Trust me the set up with one CB and one Anchorman is just fine defensively for me. 

And no you don't need a super star in CB role. I do just fine with Eric Garcia. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by crusadertsar

[TheWill3737]

My apologies

Edited January 28, 2021 by TheWill3737

[TheWill3737]

8 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Well actually the problem that we are facing is more not about leaking goals but not scoring enough. Trust me the set up with one CB and one Anchorman is just fine defensively for me. 

And no you don't need a super star in CB role. I do just fine with Eric Garcia. 

How about this?

[crusadertsar]

6 minutes ago, TheWill3737 said:

My apologies

No worries. 

[RenegadeMaster]

19 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Yup I'm starting to see that sides sitting back and playing "anti-football" is beginning to be the same problem it was on FM20  Especially when trying to play Possession-heavy style. It's too bad because this can be a fun tactic when your reputation is not too high and the opposition is more open. 

Hi mate, it certainly is getting frustrating. We literally just can't score goals or the ones we do score seem to be long range shots from outside the box. This is the latest result at home to PSV, I hit the woodwork 5 times during this game: 

This result comes on the back of three 0-0's against some of the worse teams in the division. Sadly, I am starting to run out of ideas   

Edited January 29, 2021 by RenegadeMaster

[Beerwulf]

23 hours ago, TheWill3737 said:

Does the game allow for a Libero to be played without a centerback to the left and to the right?

You can definitely have a libero with a DCR but not a DCL, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Going back to the initial 3 across the back idea with DL---DC---DR. I had some decent play setting the DL and DR to FB/D, FB/S and FB/S (hold position PI). All had the Sit narrower PI. Since I don't have the time to play seasons, I play one game on Full highlights when I look at tactics so I haven't results to show, but they were better defensively and taking up better positions than IWB/D.

If  @crusadertsar and others are still looking at this, then they might want to give it a try if they're not happy with IWB/D.

I'm still not liking the concept defensively because the DC has to be too perfect as any mistake will be punished with a high quality shot on goal. 

 

 

[Impacto]

Quick update - haven't had much time to play recently, but got a good session tonight. I made only 1 change since last time - switched the mentality permamently to Positive. The reason is, I found in a lot of games when were pushing for the win in the dying minutes, that switching from Balanced to Positive made our game more fluid and proactive. Few games after playing with Positive from the start and I think it improved things going forward. No new issues defensively so far.

We definitely create more now, but the problem is we just can't score our chances. We miss so many opportunities it's crazy. I feel like the game just doesn't want this tactic to win  But it's still fun, were a crappy team playing like prime Man City and we just can't convert. 

But yeah, I totally think Positive is better than Balanced with everything else staying the same. Basically that means:

---------------------------(F9)Balanced---------------------

(IWa)Attacking------(AMs)Balanced-------(IWa)Attacking

--------------(MEZ)Positive--------(BBM)Positive------------

---------------------------(A)Balanced-----------------------------

(IWd)Balanced------(BPDc)Balanced--------(IWd)Balanced 

No idea about the GK, didn't check. The PI are the same as before - Stay Wider on the IW, MEZ and BBM. Get further forward & Move Into Channels to the AMs. The BBM also gets further forward btw. The BPD closes down less and holds position. Training almost all midfielders to play-one twos as well. That's basically it. 

Still loving it. Just need to get converting the chances. 

[crusadertsar]

11 minutes ago, Impacto said:

Quick update - haven't had much time to play recently, but got a good session tonight. I made only 1 change since last time - switched the mentality permamently to Positive. The reason is, I found in a lot of games when were pushing for the win in the dying minutes, that switching from Balanced to Positive made our game more fluid and proactive. Few games after playing with Positive from the start and I think it improved things going forward. No new issues defensively so far.

We definitely create more now, but the problem is we just can't score our chances. We miss so many opportunities it's crazy. I feel like the game just doesn't want this tactic to win  But it's still fun, were a crappy team playing like prime Man City and we just can't convert. 

But yeah, I totally think Positive is better than Balanced with everything else staying the same. Basically that means:

---------------------------(F9)Balanced---------------------

(IWa)Attacking------(AMs)Balanced-------(IWa)Attacking

--------------(MEZ)Positive--------(BBM)Positive------------

---------------------------(A)Balanced-----------------------------

(IWd)Balanced------(BPDc)Balanced--------(IWd)Balanced 

No idea about the GK, didn't check. The PI are the same as before - Stay Wider on the IW, MEZ and BBM. Get further forward & Move Into Channels to the AMs. The BBM also gets further forward btw. The BPD closes down less and holds position. Training almost all midfielders to play-one twos as well. That's basically it. 

Still loving it. Just need to get converting the chances. 

Maybe it's a question of getting more clinical forwards. I'm starting to think that even though I managed to get some very technical players, their finishing and off the ball attributes are not exceptional.

[Giovanna]

I agree with you guys i kept this tactic for the first half of my second second with it as my main and despite the tweaks i made i was dominant but not clinical, i fixed my defensives issues, and the play is beautiful but i think it doesn't fit the ME, i was losing points on draws and i had to made a decision i switch to my second tactic end ended up winning both the PL and UCL, i would like to see this work on UCL to know it is possible but i'm sceptical.

I decided to drop it definitely as I started my own tactic and you inspired me to play with 3 cb close to each other but i gave them PI's it's a 3-4-2-1 formation that is surprisingly solid in defense and produce à beautiful play with scoring goals, i kept my philosphy of play of course so i thank you i retrived my tactical instinct and got in the lab thanks to this topic 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Giovanna

[Impacto]

7 hours ago, Giovanna said:

I agree with you guys i kept this tactic for the first half of my second second with it as my main and despite the tweaks i made i was dominant but not clinical, i fixed my defensives issues, and the play is beautiful but i think it doesn't fit the ME, i was losing points on draws and i had to made a decision i switch to my second tactic end ended up winning both the PL and UCL, i would like to see this work on UCL to know it is possible but i'm sceptical.

I decided to drop it definitely as I started my own tactic and you inspired me to play with 3 cb close to each other but i gave them PI's it's a 3-4-2-1 formation that is surprisingly solid in defense and produce à beautiful play with scoring goals, i kept my philosphy of play of course so i thank you i retrived my tactical instinct and got in the lab thanks to this topic 

Winning on FM is not hard. This is more about doing it in a particular style that you rarely see. You can win the league with any team by just playing in a way that the ME favours. But doing in this style, where the ME is against you, you need perfect squad building decisions, great management skills to make sure you're getting the max of every player... this is a whole new thing. 

This is what makes it interesting for me. And it makes the game more realistic, because I can't storm the league like normally you would once you know what works in FM and what doesn't. It's like playing on hard mode. And if I manage to figuire this tactic out to the point where I win everything with it, it would actually be an achievemnt. Not just another FM save where you win everything just by pressing continue...

And it's fun to watch the crazy good passing and movement. 

[Giovanna]

5 hours ago, Impacto said:

Winning on FM is not hard. This is more about doing it in a particular style that you rarely see. You can win the league with any team by just playing in a way that the ME favours. But doing in this style, where the ME is against you, you need perfect squad building decisions, great management skills to make sure you're getting the max of every player... this is a whole new thing. 

This is what makes it interesting for me. And it makes the game more realistic, because I can't storm the league like normally you would once you know what works in FM and what doesn't. It's like playing on hard mode. And if I manage to figuire this tactic out to the point where I win everything with it, it would actually be an achievemnt. Not just another FM save where you win everything just by pressing continue...

And it's fun to watch the crazy good passing and movement. 

I know and in find the 4-2-3-1 broken regardless the way you play it, that's why i dropped the game before coming back to try more complex tactics like this one in the first place. Like i said i changed it because it doesn't fit and i've been going on with it for almost 2 years in game, i don't really see improvement and im not trying to get sacked it took me 5 years to build my squad, the board has high expectations and after dropping the ball last year i had to adapt, but i would like this tactic to work i like the beautiful game. 

The tactic i made keep this philosophy of beautiful play and short passing i never made a 3cb tactic work for me and it is for now i won't say my tactic is broken thou more adapted to any squad i guess, i will try it with a mid squad team to see. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Giovanna

[RenegadeMaster]

9 hours ago, Impacto said:

Winning on FM is not hard. This is more about doing it in a particular style that you rarely see. You can win the league with any team by just playing in a way that the ME favours. But doing in this style, where the ME is against you, you need perfect squad building decisions, great management skills to make sure you're getting the max of every player... this is a whole new thing. 

This is what makes it interesting for me. And it makes the game more realistic, because I can't storm the league like normally you would once you know what works in FM and what doesn't. It's like playing on hard mode. And if I manage to figuire this tactic out to the point where I win everything with it, it would actually be an achievemnt. Not just another FM save where you win everything just by pressing continue...

And it's fun to watch the crazy good passing and movement. 

Great post. 
I have just had the chance to have two quick games, both at home against two of the lesser sides in the league and both finished 1-1 which is beyond annoying. 
I have been using @crusadertsar’s training sessions alongside this and am considering making two minor tweaks to get a chance conversion session, in place of the Thursday resistance session and a match preparation attacking movement session in. I’ll report back in a few games time to see if there has been any difference. 

[Impacto]

One thing that I've always used to judge a tactic  is to follow how the youth squad performs with it. When a tactic is solid, the U19s tend to do well, even if the players are not that great and don't really fit it. 

Spoiler

11 out of the 14 teams are from the division above. Some of those teams have twice the quality of players that we do in our academy. And yet, we're 6th. This proves to me that the tactic is solid. With all great tactics that I've tried, the youth team always performed well, so this is quite a positive sign. 

Btw, 5 wins a row at the moment, sitting 4th with a real chance for promotion. Found a good AMC on loan to upgrade my current young one who simply had no alternative up to this point, and he started with 2 goals and 1 assist in 3 games so far. I have attribute masking turned on and squad building is such a challenge. I love it!! 

I also spent some time on doing the corners offensively and defensively. I didn't wanna use a broken set piece tactic, so I just found something that is decent, but not totally OP. I did this after noticing we only scored one goal from a corner all season so far. Overall I hope for 2 to 3 goals from corners to the end of the season(~10 matches)

Our defensive corner system is a mix between zonal and mixed marking and is focused on catching the opposition on counters. I left the tho IW at the edge of the area with the F9 staying forward. This should help our counter attacking game a bit and make us solid in defending the corners(I hope). 

Looking good so far for sure. The team settled, keeps improving, and I learned who plays best in what position. I hava plenty of options left footers, right footers, tall players for the defensive positions and all of that helps. Plus, most players learned the PPMs I wanted. 

This is fun! 

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, Impacto said:

One thing that I've always used to judge a tactic  is to follow how the youth squad performs with it. When a tactic is solid, the U19s tend to do well, even if the players are not that great and don't really fit it. 

  Reveal hidden contents

11 out of the 14 teams are from the division above. Some of those teams have twice the quality of players that we do in our academy. And yet, we're 6th. This proves to me that the tactic is solid. With all great tactics that I've tried, the youth team always performed well, so this is quite a positive sign. 

Btw, 5 wins a row at the moment, sitting 4th with a real chance for promotion. Found a good AMC on loan to upgrade my current young one who simply had no alternative up to this point, and he started with 2 goals and 1 assist in 3 games so far. I have attribute masking turned on and squad building is such a challenge. I love it!! 

I also spent some time on doing the corners offensively and defensively. I didn't wanna use a broken set piece tactic, so I just found something that is decent, but not totally OP. I did this after noticing we only scored one goal from a corner all season so far. Overall I hope for 2 to 3 goals from corners to the end of the season(~10 matches)

Our defensive corner system is a mix between zonal and mixed marking and is focused on catching the opposition on counters. I left the tho IW at the edge of the area with the F9 staying forward. This should help our counter attacking game a bit and make us solid in defending the corners(I hope). 

Looking good so far for sure. The team settled, keeps improving, and I learned who plays best in what position. I hava plenty of options left footers, right footers, tall players for the defensive positions and all of that helps. Plus, most players learned the PPMs I wanted. 

This is fun! 

I'm really glad it works for you man  Are you still testing it in FM20?

I wonder if there's something different with FM21. Because as of my 3rd season with Real Sociedad the tactic pretty much stopped being effective for me. So I've had the same experience as @RenegadeMaster. I'm close to giving up on it. Although my youth are doing well with it.

And we are not leaking too many goals. But my First Team just can't score goals. I wonder if it would work better with a different team. It is rather disenheartening because I invested a lot time and effort in this save 

Edited January 31, 2021 by crusadertsar

[TheWill3737]

7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I'm really glad it works for you man  Are you still testing it in FM20?

I wonder if there's something different with FM21. Because as of my 3rd season with Real Sociedad the tactic pretty much stopped being effective for me. So I've had the same experience as @RenegadeMaster. I'm close to giving up on it. Although my youth are doing well with it.

And we are not leaking too many goals. But my First Team just can't score goals. I wonder if it would work better with a different team. It is rather disenheartaninh because I invested a lot time and effort in this save 

So I decided to rethink the tactic. I kept the formation. I changed the roles around a little bit. I changed the instructions but kept the main philosophy intact. I am attaching the formation to this post as well as some screenshots of the first three matches after I adopted this tactic. Familiarity was around 30%-40% for these three matches. I won all three scoring 6 goals and conceding 1.

Defensively, I instructed the team to force the opposition inside. This plays well with the Anchorman as he doesn't move from left to right too much and with this instruction players and the ball come to him rather than him going to them. I also changed the SK to Defend Duty so that he can have the take less risks instruction. This means the ball is played through the defence rather than losing possession with long kicks after the ball is passed back to the goalkeeper by a defender.

Offensively, I made many changes. You can see them when you download the tactic. The diamond shape was kept intact and possession was above 70% for one match, above 60% for one match and above 50% for one match. Also please keep in mind that my team is not the best as I have chopped and changed tactics during my second season every 3 games. I am going to keep at it with this tactic and keep you informed. 

1CBTotalFootball.fmf

[Impacto]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

I'm really glad it works for you man  Are you still testing it in FM20?

I wonder if there's something different with FM21. Because as of my 3rd season with Real Sociedad the tactic pretty much stopped being effective for me. So I've had the same experience as @RenegadeMaster. I'm close to giving up on it. Although my youth are doing well with it.

And we are not leaking too many goals. But my First Team just can't score goals. I wonder if it would work better with a different team. It is rather disenheartaninh because I invested a lot time and effort in this save 

Still on FM20. I don't like the direction SI are going, so I'm not buying future FMs until I see a massive improvement. Personal choice

It's totally possible the difference in FMs to be at play as well. Although I think this tactic should be even better in FM 21, considering all the positive changes. But at the end of the day, I don't really know. 

One thing I missed mentioning - I am using the largest pitch available to make sure we have enough space at least at home. With everybody staying wider I think it has a positive effect. Now, the team is low on rep, so this might be helping us to overperform as well. I guess we'll see as we improve in the coming seasons(or I go to a bigger club).

[TheWill3737]

I've made these changes to the tactic.  Let me know what you guys think...

1CBTotalFootball.fmf

[RenegadeMaster]

18 minutes ago, TheWill3737 said:

I've made these changes to the tactic.  Let me know what you guys think...

1CBTotalFootball.fmf 43.66 kB · 3 downloads

Hi mate, are these changes different to the one you posted yesterday? 
I gave the tactic you posted yesterday a go, albeit only for one game and we won 4-1 and played some decent stuff. I myself was going to try the AP / DLF pairing upfront and it worked quite well. I’ll give it a go for a few more games and let you know how it gets on. Good worK though mate.  

[TheWill3737]

20 hours ago, RenegadeMaster said:

Hi mate, are these changes different to the one you posted yesterday? 
I gave the tactic you posted yesterday a go, albeit only for one game and we won 4-1 and played some decent stuff. I myself was going to try the AP / DLF pairing upfront and it worked quite well. I’ll give it a go for a few more games and let you know how it gets on. Good worK though mate.  

Yes, I'm trying to get them to pass the ball around more. So I added take less risks instruction to most of the players. this doesn't inhibit creativity rather it allows for the team to pass the ball around and then when space is created they will make that killer pass. This helps with creating chances for players. If players are given too much freedom to take more risks in their passing they will attempt audacious passes in every forward movement. This disrupts the flow of the team and doesn't allow the team to create as they don't play as a unit. 

I've realized that most possession tactics on FM since the downfall of Barcelona's dominating passing play has resulted in a lot of possession, a lot of chances and minimal goals. This means that it needs to be reinvented. 

I am going to change this tactic again and get the IW's to change to W's. The instructions will stay the same with hold the ball, take less risks and stay wider on for them. I feel the DLF can dictate play with the AP in the centre of the final third. Two IW's makes this area of the pitch more congested and disallows movement in and around the box. The Mezzala's and the IW's operate in the half space and they end up passing back and forth. Changing the IW's to W's allows the team to stretch the opposition.

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, TheWill3737 said:

Yes, I'm trying to get them to pass the ball around more. So I added take less risks instruction to most of the players. this doesn't inhibit creativity rather it allows for the team to pass the ball around and then when space is created they will make that killer pass. This helps with creating chances for players. If players are given too much freedom to take more risks in their passing they will attempt audacious passes in every forward movement. This disrupts the flow of the team and doesn't allow the team to create as they don't play as a unit. 

I've realized that most possession tactics on FM since the downfall of Barcelona's dominating passing play has resulted in a lot of possession, a lot of chances and minimal goals. This means that it needs to be reinvented. 

I am going to change this tactic again and get the IW's to change to W's. The instructions will stay the same with hold the ball, take less risks and stay wider on for them. I feel the DLF can dictate play with the AP in the centre of the final third. Two IW's makes this area of the pitch more congested and disallows movement in and around the box. The Mezzala's and the IW's operate in the half space and they end up passing back and forth. Changing the IW's to W's allows the team to stretch the opposition.

Changing to Ws is a good idea on paper but has its own problems in ME. I actually used them in an earlier version vof this tactic and wasn't happy with overall movement. That's why I moved to IWs with "stay wider" PI. With wingers more crossing and more dribbling instructions are hard-coded, which is not something I'm looking for in a Total Football tactic. But go ahead try it, maybe you'll have better luck.

Edited February 2, 2021 by crusadertsar

[frukox]

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Changing to Ws is a good idea on paper but has its own problems in ME. I actually used them in an earlier version vof this tactic and wasn't happy with overall movement. That's why I moved to IWs with "stay wider" PI. With wingers more crossing and more dribbling instructions are hard-coded, which is not something I'm looking for in a Total Football tactic. But go ahead try it, maybe you'll have better luck.

Maybe I'm just crazy:) but I'd first try this for total football, then tweak it after some matches when needed.

             DLFA

IWS         TA         IWA

        CMS    RPMS

                HB

FBS        CBD       IWBD

               SKD

Positive

Slightly Lower Tempo, Overlap Right, Focus Down Left Flank, Low Crosses, Be More Expressive

Distribute to CBS, Roll It Out

Higher DL, Higher/Much Higher LOE, Use Offside Trap, Stay on Feet, Prevent Short GK Distribution 

All front four with Close Down More with Tackle Harder when possible

FBS with Get Forward

Opposition GK: Always Tight Mark,Close Down, Tackle Hard

Opposition FBs/WBs: Always Close Down

For me total football means every player does both defending and attacking pretty much to the same extent. This means closer mentalities for me all over the pitch for a better compact shape and a high press for me.

CBD gets help from HB to make it back two and with IWBD, it's three most of the time. FBS and IWS works together and CMS is close to them. RPM is the link all over the pitch. TA goes forward when the ball is in the final third otherwise just focusing on build-up play. DLFA positions himself a bit higher but still contributes to the build-up play with IWA cutting inside finding a number of players for linking up play and scoring goals.

Edited February 2, 2021 by frukox

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, frukox said:

Maybe I'm just crazy:) but I'd first try this for total football, then tweak it after some matches when needed.

             DLFA

IWS         TA         IWA

        CMS    RPMS

                HB

FBS        CBD       IWBD

               SKD

Positive

Slightly Lower Tempo, Overlap Right, Focus Down Left Flank, Low Crosses, Be More Expressive

Distribute to CBS, Roll It Out

Higher DL, Higher/Much Higher LOE, Use Offside Trap, Stay on Feet, Prevent Short GK Distribution 

All front four with Close Down More with Tackle Harder when possible

FBS with Get Forward

Opposition GK: Always Tight Mark,Close Down, Tackle Hard

Opposition FBs/WBs: Always Close Down

For me total football means every player does both defending and attacking pretty much to the same extent. This means closer mentalities for me all over the pitch for a better compact shape and a high press for me.

CBD gets help from HB to make it back two and with IWBD, it's three most of the time. FBS and IWS works together and CMS is close to them. RPM is the link all over the pitch. TA goes forward when the ball is in the final third otherwise just focusing on build-up play. DLFA positions himself a bit higher but still contributes to the build-up play with IWA cutting inside finding a number of players for linking up play and scoring goals.

Thank looks promising! Have you tried it out in the game yet?

[frukox]

2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Thank looks promising! Have you tried it out in the game yet?

I'm not on my PC but I'll try it at the first opportunity but maybe you can give it a try and report back for the time being.

[TheWill3737]

Hmm didn't think about that. I haven't booted up the game so see what the hard-coded instructions are. I'm thinking of changing them to Advanced Playmakers then.

[crusadertsar]

On 02/02/2021 at 09:26, frukox said:

Maybe I'm just crazy:) but I'd first try this for total football, then tweak it after some matches when needed.

             DLFA

IWS         TA         IWA

        CMS    RPMS

                HB

FBS        CBD       IWBD

               SKD

Positive

Slightly Lower Tempo, Overlap Right, Focus Down Left Flank, Low Crosses, Be More Expressive

Distribute to CBS, Roll It Out

Higher DL, Higher/Much Higher LOE, Use Offside Trap, Stay on Feet, Prevent Short GK Distribution 

All front four with Close Down More with Tackle Harder when possible

FBS with Get Forward

Opposition GK: Always Tight Mark,Close Down, Tackle Hard

Opposition FBs/WBs: Always Close Down

For me total football means every player does both defending and attacking pretty much to the same extent. This means closer mentalities for me all over the pitch for a better compact shape and a high press for me.

CBD gets help from HB to make it back two and with IWBD, it's three most of the time. FBS and IWS works together and CMS is close to them. RPM is the link all over the pitch. TA goes forward when the ball is in the final third otherwise just focusing on build-up play. DLFA positions himself a bit higher but still contributes to the build-up play with IWA cutting inside finding a number of players for linking up play and scoring goals.

Hey! I made some of the tweaks you suggested and this was the first result from my U19 team  And we don't even have an amazing junior squad full of wonderkids. With maybe the exception of my AMC Campa who is rather good for this level. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by crusadertsar

[eddygodwin]

This is how i setup:            

                                      F9

IW(s)                             TA                            IW(s)

                   Mez(s)                    B2B(s)

                                    A/Hb

IWB(D)                      BPD(C)                  IWB(D)

                                 SK(A) (Roll out specific to BPD) - i see less of the ball getting booted out 

3-4-3 Cruyff Total Football.fmf

[frukox]

On 06/02/2021 at 21:18, crusadertsar said:

Hey! I made some of the tweaks you suggested and this was the first result from my U19 team  And we don't even have an amazing junior squad full of wonderkids. With maybe the exception of my AMC Campa who is rather good for this level. 

Wow, a good start for younglings:) What's the latest setup now?

[TheWill3737]

One center back. Solid defense. Lots of goals. 7 players attacking. 2 halfbacks spraying passes. 1 center back covering. Check it out and let me know what you think

Mirror Tactic.fmf

[crusadertsar]

17 hours ago, frukox said:

Wow, a good start for younglings:) What's the latest setup now?

This was the latest version I used with my First Team (and copied by u19) 

[crusadertsar]

Another top notch performance by my Sociedad's u19 side. They are 19 wins and 1 draw in total so far this season.  And against a rather bottom heavy side. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by crusadertsar

[gokalpcakir1]

22 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Sociedad'ın 19 yaş altı tarafının bir başka birinci sınıf performansı. Bu sezon şu ana kadar toplam 19 galibiyet ve 1 beraberlik. Ve oldukça alt ağır bir tarafa karşı. 

what are the PIs of the last tactic

[raktim0699]

Hello, How do these roles and duties sound for total football because I just wanted to get those diamond shape right, and my theory is that when HB drops, he will make back three, and I have given the BPD to stay wide? IWB will act like a midfielder, in this case, to form the diamond in the center midfield with DLP behind them. Wingers are there to stretch the pitch as is necessary for the possession style of football. AF(A) will be exploiting the channels and pushing the defenders back while SS will be smart enough, dropping deep sometimes and making runs in behind to trouble the defenders.

[frukox]

On 08/02/2021 at 18:40, crusadertsar said:

This was the latest version I used with my First Team (and copied by u19) 

It's a bit risky than I'd like but if it works it works:)

I'm thinking about another version of this attempt of a 343 diamond as I didn't like the movement; it felt a bit passive in possession. The system looks like this:

                    F9

IWS       SSA                     R

             BBM    DLPS     

                           HB

IWBD             CDD            WBS

                      SKS

Positive

In possession: Shorter Passing, Be More Expressive, Slightly Lower Tempo, Overlap Left, Overlap Right, Fairly Narrow

In transition: Counterpress, Take Short Kicks

Out of possession: Higher DL, Higher LOE, Use Offside Trap

PIs: All front four with Close Down More,  Tackle Harder(split block)

I'll try the system with Liverpool, ironically:) They have a ready squad with total footballers. They are ideal for this test. TIs should give me a possession-based compact high block. Of course, I'll tweak it after watching my transitions closely if need be.

It should look like this during attacking transitions:

                                   RA

            SSA

IWS                F9              

            BBM       DLPS     WBS

        IWBD            HB

                     CBD            

                      SKS

By the way, I'm on FM20. So I'll use my goalkeeper as a SKS. This role is the finest for playing out of defence with mixed passing.

Update: I changed the tactic because my f9 still is the furthermost player(one of the shittiest thing in FM20) now it is as follows after the tweaks. It looks good in friendly matches.

                             CFS

  RA               APA

             DLPS    CMA    WMS

                       A     

WBS            CDD         IWBD 

                    SKS

TIs also changed to 

In possession: PooD, Whipped Crosses, Overlap Left, Underlap Right, Slightly Lower Tempo

In transition: Same

Out of Possession: Higher DL, Use Offside Trap, Prevent Short GK

Edited February 10, 2021 by frukox

[Impacto]

9 hours ago, raktim0699 said:

Hello, How do these roles and duties sound for total football because I just wanted to get those diamond shape right, and my theory is that when HB drops, he will make back three, and I have given the BPD to stay wide? IWB will act like a midfielder, in this case, to form the diamond in the center midfield with DLP behind them. Wingers are there to stretch the pitch as is necessary for the possession style of football. AF(A) will be exploiting the channels and pushing the defenders back while SS will be smart enough, dropping deep sometimes and making runs in behind to trouble the defenders.

I've used something very similar on FM 18 and worked great. (Another Ozil masterpiece)The IWBs really go into the midfield and help posession... But only if you have one player in the DM strata. We had a DLP on defend there, not a HB. In front of him there were 2 CMs who were bombing forward, leaving the space behind them for the IWBs. The Wingers strech the play, but no AMC, just a lone DLF (has to be good to make it work). 

-------------------

The reason this tactic appeals to me is the fact that here the IWB who act as CBs in defense, actually go forward and overlap. It is not possible on FM to have a CB do that at the moment, so this tactic made something impossible to now be possible. It's like playing with an extra man at times. Seriously! I've had a man sent off and we keep dominating   The only issue is that when you're using possession settings the game just punishes you...  

I Didn't have time to play much recently, but currently we're 2nd in the league fighting for play offs(1st place is too far to catch and frankly, too good). Considering this is our 2nd season, we're full of young players and we were a bottom team at the start of the game, we're massively overachieving so far. 

This tactic is good for any level, but apart from the obvious requirements, you need players that are good at:

Long shots(midfielders and attackers), Anticipation, Decisions, Free kicks and Corners(those add up and balance the lack of goals from play).

Here are my tips from my experience so far:

Just use good old wingbacks in the IWB positions. They will defend well, but going forward you want them to cross properly and make good passes, they will do that often so it's important. I've had many assists coming from them, and sometimes I have to use sraight up CBs to cover missing players. And yet they still get the odd crossing assist, I can only imagine if I had a proper WB playing. The benefit of using a CB in those roles though is the areal prowess. It can really help when you're fighting for a lead in dying moments, so a late sub there might be a good idea. But other than that, prime Dani Alves is what you want. 

Focus on a CB with great heading and jumping, but also make sure he has some speed. Never ever use a player who is bad in the air here it's a suicide. 

For the Anchor man you want a ball playing CB basically. Or a proper tall DM with good passing. This is your 2nd or 4th defender(depending on how you look at it) and your DLP in one. A lot of balls go through him so if he is bad... well you can't have that. 

The Mezz and BBM - Here I focus on well rounded players, while the Mezzala is usually the more creative one, while the BBM is the more physical. The Mezzala is the set piece master, good free kicks and corners are a must for me. 

The AMC is your main creator. Proper 10 profile of a player is needed here. Will move a lot, spray passes and shoot so you need all of those. Similar type to the Mezzala really, but here you need him to be a decent finisher as well. Give him dictate tempo and play one twos. Play one twos is also good for the F9, Mezz and BBM. 

Also, try to get your F9 to be competetive in the air, not just technical, so when the team decides to do what they want and just hoof it forward, he has a chance to win the ball. And it helps on crosses. 

Finally, for the IW you want the standard stuff, but you absolutely need good finishers. They get all the chances and they are going to miss a lot of them... so make sure you maximize the numbers here. Oh, If you're deep in a game, there are always crazy tall but technically good wingers(for some weird reason), those will be insane in those positions, because they will get on the end of those IWB crosses even more often(I think, not tried it yet). 

Oh and don't forget to time waste guys... when the 80th minute hits and you're leading by less than 3 goals, make sure to time waste. I learned that the hard way...

P.S. Develep weaker foots as well. You can't have one legged players here. 

[raktim0699]

46 minutes ago, Impacto said:

I've used something very similar on FM 18 and worked great. (Another Ozil masterpiece)The IWBs really go into the midfield and help posession... But only if you have one player in the DM strata. We had a DLP on defend there, not a HB. In front of him there were 2 CMs who were bombing forward, leaving the space behind them for the IWBs. The Wingers strech the play, but no AMC, just a lone DLF (has to be good to make it work). 

-------------------

The reason this tactic appeals to me is the fact that here the IWB who act as CBs in defense, actually go forward and overlap. It is not possible on FM to have a CB do that at the moment, so this tactic made something impossible to now be possible. It's like playing with an extra man at times. Seriously! I've had a man sent off and we keep dominating   The only issue is that when you're using possession settings the game just punishes you...  

I Didn't have time to play much recently, but currently we're 2nd in the league fighting for play offs(1st place is too far to catch and frankly, too good). Considering this is our 2nd season, we're full of young players and we were a bottom team at the start of the game, we're massively overachieving so far. 

This tactic is good for any level, but apart from the obvious requirements, you need players that are good at:

Long shots(midfielders and attackers), Anticipation, Decisions, Free kicks and Corners(those add up and balance the lack of goals from play).

Here are my tips from my experience so far:

Just use good old wingbacks in the IWB positions. They will defend well, but going forward you want them to cross properly and make good passes, they will do that often so it's important. I've had many assists coming from them, and sometimes I have to use sraight up CBs to cover missing players. And yet they still get the odd crossing assist, I can only imagine if I had a proper WB playing. The benefit of using a CB in those roles though is the areal prowess. It can really help when you're fighting for a lead in dying moments, so a late sub there might be a good idea. But other than that, prime Dani Alves is what you want. 

Focus on a CB with great heading and jumping, but also make sure he has some speed. Never ever use a player who is bad in the air here it's a suicide. 

For the Anchor man you want a ball playing CB basically. Or a proper tall DM with good passing. This is your 2nd or 4th defender(depending on how you look at it) and your DLP in one. A lot of balls go through him so if he is bad... well you can't have that. 

The Mezz and BBM - Here I focus on well rounded players, while the Mezzala is usually the more creative one, while the BBM is the more physical. The Mezzala is the set piece master, good free kicks and corners are a must for me. 

The AMC is your main creator. Proper 10 profile of a player is needed here. Will move a lot, spray passes and shoot so you need all of those. Similar type to the Mezzala really, but here you need him to be a decent finisher as well. Give him dictate tempo and play one twos. Play one twos is also good for the F9, Mezz and BBM. 

Also, try to get your F9 to be competetive in the air, not just technical, so when the team decides to do what they want and just hoof it forward, he has a chance to win the ball. And it helps on crosses. 

Finally, for the IW you want the standard stuff, but you absolutely need good finishers. They get all the chances and they are going to miss a lot of them... so make sure you maximize the numbers here. Oh, If you're deep in a game, there are always crazy tall but technically good wingers(for some weird reason), those will be insane in those positions, because they will get on the end of those IWB crosses even more often(I think, not tried it yet). 

Oh and don't forget to time waste guys... when the 80th minute hits and you're leading by less than 3 goals, make sure to time waste. I learned that the hard way...

P.S. Develep weaker foots as well. You can't have one legged players here. 

Hello, I think the forward four-position looks good because of how I described it, and Wingers giving width here will help form those diamonds and stretch the opposition backline. The Attacking Midfielders and Forwards will push the defensive line back and get at the end of crosses and long balls coming from deep. Since we do not have CM to be part of the midfield diamond, the IWB will act like one. Sometimes, in FM, if you want to replicate individual managers' styles, it won't be precisely how they play in real life. You have to compensate by placing players in unorthodox positions or roles to get the same movement patterns. I am trying to use this with Ajax, so they have good players.  My concern is whether the IWB (S) will act as CM here and arrive at the right time in midfield to act like CM would do.
Another problem is whether the DLP(S) is the right one or should I change to something like DM(S) or RPM (S). I want to try something like this; what sort of instructions would be appropriate here? I want to play .possession type of football exclusively.

[hehehemann]

3 hours ago, raktim0699 said:

 My concern is whether the IWB (S) will act as CM here and arrive at the right time in midfield to act like CM would do.
Another problem is whether the DLP(S) is the right one or should I change to something like DM(S) or RPM (S). I want to try something like this; what sort of instructions would be appropriate here? I want to play .possession type of football exclusively.

If you look at this thread where I posted some pics and a vid I use the IWB role to great effect in my formation. I have found, like Impacto says above, the key is to have one man in the DM area. I use the HB role, for your DLP, I found in my formation I can use him in the CM role, moving my AM down as a DLP and the IWBs will still move into the midfield and create that diamond in the midfield. Playing an IWB-Attack role really gets them breaking into the box or having a shot from just outside the area. As a support role they will move the ball around keeping possession. I like to retrain more defensive minded CMs into my IWB roles, I find them to have a good mix in attributes I like for the role. Positioning, tackling, passing and decisions.

 

[crusadertsar]

15 hours ago, raktim0699 said:

Hello, How do these roles and duties sound for total football because I just wanted to get those diamond shape right, and my theory is that when HB drops, he will make back three, and I have given the BPD to stay wide? IWB will act like a midfielder, in this case, to form the diamond in the center midfield with DLP behind them. Wingers are there to stretch the pitch as is necessary for the possession style of football. AF(A) will be exploiting the channels and pushing the defenders back while SS will be smart enough, dropping deep sometimes and making runs in behind to trouble the defenders.

In the game for the IWB to work properly you cannot have two players in DM strata. Even if your IWBs are on Support duty

[raktim0699]

3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

you cannot have two players in DM strata

So, if I move my DLP to the CM then will it help or should use other role instead of DLP. 

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, raktim0699 said:

So, if I move my DLP to the CM then will it help or should use other role instead of DLP. 

Honestly I wouldnt even use any playmakers in this formation. As some mentioned if you have too many playmaking short passing instructions then it can work against you as you plays and attacks get too stale. Especially when facing defensive formations. I am currently in process of stripping down many of the instructions and making the tactic more "lean and mean"

[crusadertsar]

Most recent results, Jan 2023, my 2nd season using the tactic with Real Sociedad.

Feeling much more confident against other top LaLiga teams. Although there are still times when we have more difficulty against ultra-attacking sides like Real Mardid. Especially AWAY from home. But then beating Barca AWAY like this gives me a lot of hope and excitement going forward. After alot of tweaking and some frustration it finally starting to feel like the best tactic I ever developed or played with on any FM game. And an absolute pleasure to play even when we lose. Seeing the kinds of performances it is capable of. Before now I never really watched matches on anything more than extended or comprehensive mode but now I sometimes even switch to full highlights, like in that Barcelona match. Was on the edge of the seat for the whole 90 minutes. Especially when we won it in this fashion. Many good things to take away from it. Especially the interplay between our striker and the AMC. It doesnt show in his ratings but Marcos Antonio made several nice passes to help with both Oyarzabal and Camara goals. All of our goals came from open play too. In the end, we dominated xG and possession against one of the elite possession-hungry teams in the world. While only using one true CB  Feels great.

Thanks to all you, like @Impacto , @RenegadeMaster and others who have been giving me suggestions and tweaks on this thread all this time. I integrated many of your suggestions in this improved version below. It is probably never going to be "final" as it's looking more and more like a long-term project/"labour of love". But this new version now definitely feels way more efficient and dangerous than it was in the beginning.

As I mentioned above I'm trying to strip down some of the "possession overkill" instructions that played too much to the defensive side's advantage. So now it still plays a possession-focused Total Football tactic but with more edge and intent. And I try to give more control to my players on deciding what kind of passes and tempo to play. So as @Impacto mentioned above, having very intelligent players with great mentals such as Anticipation, Decions, ect will help alot. As well as having "one-twos" for all of you attackers and midfielders. And even IWBs too will benefit from this great trait. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

Also I noticed that my left IWB Kornienko, played a key role on all three goals. In all cases his overlapping runs either helped in passing the ball forward to our attackers or simply drawing out the Barcelona defenders. Very nice to see. One of my favourite wingbacks in FM21. And I don't just say that because he is my fellow Ukrainian compatriot 

Edited February 10, 2021 by crusadertsar