World Class Players Inflation

[Cartopis84]

There are too many high PA newgen who actually achieve their PA. Its not very hard finding them w a decent scouting system and after a few in game years the average CA has been vastly inflated. When starting FM, most PL quality players are 130 CA plus. Title winning teams have a few players above 160 but the majority of squad players are 140-150. But after 10-20 years in the save there are SO many high CA newgen that its not hard to build a team with squad players who are about 160 CA.

I know this is obviously a small sample size so a bigger one is needed, but I tried to see the discrepancy in FM20. At the start of the game there are <5 players w CA 190+ which is something that remained consistent to 2040. There are about 10 180 CA+ in the beginning, and by 2040 there are about 25. 170+ there are about 30 in the start but by 2040 there are around 70. And the biggest one, at the beginning there are about 80 160 CA + players but by 2040 there are about 175 such players. I think that number is just insane and as a result many of these players who would be important players for title winning teams at the beginning of the game, are relegated to being just squad players. This is with the top 7 European Leagues loaded. Obviously a bigger sample size is needed, but is this something you have noticed too? After many years in the game is it too easy to find and sign high CA players?

[Daveincid]

You migh have fun with the file I created in the editor, it lowers the total high PA-newgens which are getting generated. I am still try to improve the file, but it looks good so far 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/539696-fm21-alternative-youth-rating-v10-by-daveincid/

Cheers

Daveincid

Edited November 27, 2020 by Daveincid

[Cartopis84]

8 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

You migh have fun with the file I created in the editor, it lowers the total high PA-newgens which are getting generated. I am still try to improve the file, but it looks good so far 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/539696-fm21-alternative-youth-rating-v10-by-daveincid/

Cheers

Daveincid

Is this save game compatible? Looks Good.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Cartopis84:

Is this save game compatible? Looks Good.

Nope, new save required, I'm afraid.

If you find something weird in the file, please post it in the download thread

Cheers

Daveincid

[Double0Seven]

Would like to see more data on this. Especially with people that load all leagues. Maybe @Daveincidcould try? I know he loads up a lot of leagues with his saves. 

You might need to look at how many high PA players there are at some date on the future and compare that to the starting date. If that's the same Im guessing it has something to do with the top leagues having better facilities thus actually being to develop those players to their max PA. Just a wild guess tho, definitely needs more research.

[Daveincid]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Double0Seven:

Would like to see more data on this. Especially with people that load all leagues. Maybe @Daveincidcould try? I know he loads up a lot of leagues with his saves. 

You might need to look at how many high PA players there are at some date on the future and compare that to the starting date. If that's the same Im guessing it has something to do with the top leagues having better facilities thus actually being to develop those players to their max PA. Just a wild guess tho, definitely needs more research.

I am currently testing my file. It could be that I will update it with major changes. It could be that the new highest youth ranking is only 125, if the goal is, replicating current state as good as possible. Just need a bit more time to be 100% sure.

 

Cheers

Daveincid

[Cartopis84]

2 hours ago, Double0Seven said:

Would like to see more data on this. Especially with people that load all leagues. Maybe @Daveincidcould try? I know he loads up a lot of leagues with his saves. 

You might need to look at how many high PA players there are at some date on the future and compare that to the starting date. If that's the same Im guessing it has something to do with the top leagues having better facilities thus actually being to develop those players to their max PA. Just a wild guess tho, definitely needs more research.

I think there's definitely a big inflation because im 2 seasons in on FM21, I don't check the potential of newgen but when I know im not going to buy them I see it sometimes, and even out of the 10 newgen I checked (who my scouts said have horrible potential) about 7 of them were 170+ pa so who knows how many of them are there.

I think one of the main marketing aspects SI uses is "find and develop a Wonderkid" so maybe the numbers are inflated in order to make the casual player find a Wonderkid easier? Idk.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Cartopis84:

I think there's definitely a big inflation because im 2 seasons in on FM21, I don't check the potential of newgen but when I know im not going to buy them I see it sometimes, and even out of the 10 newgen I checked (who my scouts said have horrible potential) about 7 of them were 170+ pa so who knows how many of them are there.

I think one of the main marketing aspects SI uses is "find and develop a Wonderkid" so maybe the numbers are inflated in order to make the casual player find a Wonderkid easier? Idk.

with or without my file?

[Double0Seven]

9 minutes ago, Cartopis84 said:

I think there's definitely a big inflation because im 2 seasons in on FM21, I don't check the potential of newgen but when I know im not going to buy them I see it sometimes, and even out of the 10 newgen I checked (who my scouts said have horrible potential) about 7 of them were 170+ pa so who knows how many of them are there.

I think one of the main marketing aspects SI uses is "find and develop a Wonderkid" so maybe the numbers are inflated in order to make the casual player find a Wonderkid easier? Idk.

But if you dont check it we dont know...

We need hard numbers here. 

[Cartopis84]

26 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

with or without my file?

Ive not used your file yet, since im still playing the long term save I'd started before

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Cartopis84:

Ive not used your file yet, since im still playing the long term save I'd started before

alright! Thanks!

[gam945]

Well maybe it's a return to normal...The 90s have so much world class players that were at least as good as Messi & Ronaldo...I think this era is an anomaly, the level of the payers have decreased a lot since late 2000s. So, nice to see that the level increases in FM.

[Daveincid]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb gam945:

Well maybe it's a return to normal...The 90s have so much world class players that were at least as good as Messi & Ronaldo...I think this era is an anomaly, the level of the payers have decreased a lot since late 2000s. So, nice to see that the level increases in FM.

Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think that in 10 years there will be 21 players as good as messi. I mean, I really don't know, but default YR gave me this scenario

Cheers

Daveincid

[Platinum]

22 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think that in 10 years there will be 21 players as good as messi. I mean, I really don't know, but default YR gave me this scenario

Cheers

Daveincid

Have you done any tests to see how many very good players (high PA) there are with the normal database in 10 or so years with most leagues loaded?

 

[Daveincid]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb francis#17:

Have you done any tests to see how many very good players (high PA) there are with the normal database in 10 or so years with most leagues loaded?

 

yes, as I said. Way too many good players

[iAlwaysWin]

should be looked into see if its a problem.

Edited November 29, 2020 by iAlwaysWin

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb iAlwaysWin:

I was always told there is no inflation in football manager, a players value is his value and the game has a threshold of how high a players value can rise, its not like if you play 50 years into the future on the game and top valued players are worth 300 million pound.

it's not about the worth from a player. It's about his CA/PA

[Daveincid]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb iAlwaysWin:

should be looked into see if its a problem.

already did

[Double0Seven]

42 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

already did

Maybe a bug report worthy? I thought the game balance CA/PA players based on who retired as to balance the game. Doesn't look good to me if there are so many inflated players.

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Double0Seven:

Maybe a bug report worthy? I thought the game balance CA/PA players based on who retired as to balance the game. Doesn't look good to me if there are so many inflated players.

I just run some test's first to be sure! Help is needed there;) The problem is also that most players reach their PA, this is influenced IMO due less injuries than IRL. So it's kinda connected with other stuff too!

[oblongata21]

On 27/11/2020 at 22:26, Daveincid said:

You migh have fun with the file I created in the editor, it lowers the total high PA-newgens which are getting generated. I am still try to improve the file, but it looks good so far 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/539696-fm21-alternative-youth-rating-v10-by-daveincid/

Cheers

Daveincid

How did you do this?

Was it just a matter of lowering the youth ranking of the countries? Or was there more to it?

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb oblongata21:

How did you do this?

Was it just a matter of lowering the youth ranking of the countries? Or was there more to it?

Not only. According to my tests, Game Importance has a big influence too. I will do a major update soon...it looks as the values are still too high

[Double0Seven]

Found a reddit thread from last year regarding this. 

Quote

It all depends on what leagues you have loaded, like if you've got any of the 'big' leagues loaded the teams in there all have great academies so there's bound to be a lot of good to great newgens.

This was an interesting comment and I think it might be true. Great academies to generate high PA players combined with great training facilities to actually reach that PA cause for "inflated" players in the long term? Just a wild gamble though. 

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Double0Seven:

Found a reddit thread from last year regarding this. 

This was an interesting comment and I think it might be true. Great academies to generate high PA players combined with great training facilities to actually reach that PA cause for "inflated" players in the long term? Just a wild gamble though. 

Not completely true, like I said. Value has nothing to do with CA/PA. You can hava a rubbish youth player and give him some game-time in a top league and he will be worth millions. 

It's about the database you load in terms of which players, not only leagues. If you load players via the advanced db, even the league isn't loaded, there will be talents found in the future

[oblongata21]

30 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Not only. According to my tests, Game Importance has a big influence too. I will do a major update soon...it looks as the values are still too high

Sorry if this is a stupid question but what exactly do you mean by game importance?

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb oblongata21:

Sorry if this is a stupid question but what exactly do you mean by game importance?

there is a value in the editor for this. For example: If you would set a YR of 200 for let's say India, but the value of game importance is "completely useless", they will produce much less talent. If you change it to "very important", there will be better players in general. But there are much more values that influences the quality and quantity of newgens. 

[Cartopis84]

I think that even if there is the argument that many players have elite potential of 180+, maybe a higher percentage of them shouldn't reach it. In my experience they generally do with good training/ game time but how they perform does not seem to have an effect on this. Imo they develop the same as long as they get game time whether their rating is 6.50 or 8.00. Nor certain about this, just my opinion.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Cartopis84:

I think that even if there is the argument that many players have elite potential of 180+, maybe a higher percentage of them shouldn't reach it. In my experience they generally do with good training/ game time but how they perform does not seem to have an effect on this. Imo they develop the same as long as they get game time whether their rating is 6.50 or 8.00. Nor certain about this, just my opinion.

yes, and you don't get punished for using high offensive pressing-tactics in terms of injuries. IRL if you play this all the time, players get injured. Theoretically there is nothing wrong with having in 2025 20 players with PA of 200, but if they all reach it in they early 20's then it's getting strange

[oblongata21]

15 hours ago, Daveincid said:

there is a value in the editor for this. For example: If you would set a YR of 200 for let's say India, but the value of game importance is "completely useless", they will produce much less talent. If you change it to "very important", there will be better players in general. But there are much more values that influences the quality and quantity of newgens. 

Its actually more complex than I thought.

I assume the youth development also plays a part both at club and international level

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb oblongata21:

Its actually more complex than I thought.

I assume the youth development also plays a part both at club and international level

It really is! I would never say that I know exactly how it works. But it's definetly very complex

[Double0Seven]

Time to revive this thread considering the fix for newgens is out. Hopefully someone can look at this again. Maybe there would be even more world class players considering newgens spawn properly now? 

[Daveincid]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Double0Seven:

Time to revive this thread considering the fix for newgens is out. Hopefully someone can look at this again. Maybe there would be even more world class players considering newgens spawn properly now? 

I'm already testing

[Andrew James]

I've just been directed to this post from the bugs forum.

The fix included in today's update should improve the generation of newgens in inactive leagues, but unfortunately we haven't got all the issues linked with decreased total player count 10+ years into a save completely nailed yet (but fix will be save game compatible when we do).

However, this shouldn't impact the high CA/PA newgens as we think the player count issues are more closely linked to low quality newgens being released and not finding clubs before retiring young. 

If the issue is too many high PA players then it would be a generation issue, however if it's too many high CA, then it may be progression. I'll do some digging myself and look forward to hearing what you find! 

[Tom 99]

On 30/11/2020 at 04:10, oblongata21 said:

Its actually more complex than I thought.

I assume the youth development also plays a part both at club and international level

For your interest:

 

Quote

Youth Recruitment
The Club’s recruiting of Juniors, those of home and foreign origin.

Youth Facilities
The training facilities available for Juniors (only).
Does NOT apply to visible players already at the club. All visible players currently at the club use Training Facilities regardless of age.

Junior Coaching
The quality and quantity of Junior Coaches at the Club.

Nation Youth Rating
The potential maximum quality and quantity of Juniors produced in that Nation.

Game Importance
How important football is considered to be in that Nation.

Producing Newgens
The Clubs with the best Youth Recruitment will generally pick up the best Junior talent from that Nation first, the scale of that talent being determined by the Nation Youth Rating and Game Importance. The lower the Youth Recruitment the further down the pecking order a club will find itself. Two clubs with identical Youth Recruitment will be sorted by Club Reputation. Being lower down this pecking order does not mean quality Newgens cannot be produced, it simply lowers the chances.
Youth Facilities and Junior Coaching then simulate and determine how that Junior progresses in the Club’s Junior system until a Newgen is produced and appears in game. It is at this point that the Current Ability (CA) and Potential Ability (PA) of the newgens are decided. The above factors all contribute to both CA and PA equally.

Head of Youth Development (HoYD)
The club’s HoYD is responsible for bringing Newgens into the club. He will influence what “type” of players are selected and can partially or fully pass on his personality to some of these Newgens. The “type” of players selected refers to a player’s position and style, for instance a HoYD with a preferred 4-5-1 formation and a Technical Coaching Style may produce more technically styled midfielders than another HoYD.
The HoYD will also influence the rare “freak” or exceptional Newgens that come through, modifying their ability and style.
This role is filled by the HoYD by default, however if none is employed whichever staff member is set to be responsible for youth development will fill this role.