Midfield partnership in 433

[ryandormer]

Yet another attempt to get past Christmas with Arsenal--almost there!

My tactic looks like this, and it has been pretty poor, I think:

Luckily other teams in the league have also been awful, so I'm only seven points from top, though I'm in eighth place:

I am trying to stick with the instructions above as a core philosophy, in the hope that the team will improve as it gets used to it, and I add other instructions as the game goes on (mentality shifts, counter, etc.)

I've got the wide roles sorted, I think. Attacking forward on one flank, attacking full back on the other. My issue is working out which of the central midfielders should be the 'runner' and which the creator. If I put the attacking role on the left, he might run into the same space as the inside forward. If I put him on the right, that might leave the right side exposed with the attacking full back.

Any advice on which roles to use in the midfield would be great.

[Johnny Ace]

Doesn't look too bad in terms of roles choices, you've got a sitter, creator & attacker, I'd just swap the MC's around so the AP-S is on the left & the CM-A is on the right 

[ryandormer]

Just now, Johnny Ace said:

Doesn't look too bad in terms of roles choices, you've got a sitter, creator & attacker, I'd just swap the MC's around so the AP-S is on the left & the CM-A is on the right 

That was much hunch, but do you think that would leave the right overly exposed? Or should the DMd be enough to cover? Thanks

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

That was much hunch, but do you think that would leave the right overly exposed? Or should the DMd be enough to cover? Thanks

Oooh yeah, most likely will leave you exposed, but it's a balancing act with that formation, do you send your CMR & FBR forward or have one a little more conservative? I normally opt for two FB-S's but I'm boring 

[ryandormer]

Just now, Johnny Ace said:

Oooh yeah, most likely will leave you exposed, but it's a balancing act with that formation, do you send your CMR & FBR forward or have one a little more conservative? I normally opt for two FB-S's but I'm boring 

I've tried to FBs too, but I can never seem to get them up the pitch quick enough to offer a decent attacking outlet. I had a FBs and WBs once, and that worked quite well, but that was when my team was significantly stronger in FM19.

I guess all formations contain an inherent risk--overly defensive formations invite too much pressure, overly attacking formations leave the team exposed at the back, etc. I think I'll give your suggestion a go, and accept that my right flank is a weakness but take the view that it's worth it for the attacking potential. Cheers for the suggestions.

[Johnny Ace]

I guess Bellerin has pretty aggressive PPMs too? Get forward, dribble more, stuff like that? Could always have him on the Overlap, which will bump his mentality up a bit & lower Pepe's. Worth a try 

 

[RPM_01]

I'd be interested how you get on with this. I've tried a similar set up with the advanced/deep playmaker in the 3 and enjoy the way they play but always feel there is a little something lacking compared to a BBM or a Mez.

Maybe somewhere else to look at is changing the IF & FB roles to create a bit of variety which could help improve your midfielders performances?

Edited December 5, 2019 by RPM_01

[ryandormer]

I might have a bit of a mess around with it. I've tried so many different set ups, over four saves, and I cannot get the team working. I accept the problem may well be the tactics, but I think the ME is pretty appalling this year when it comes to chance conversion. On the rare occasion that my team plays well, and works the ball into box nicely, my players never seem to finish one-on-ones. It just doesn't work. I know SI released a patch a couple of days ago, and one of the issues they claimed to resolve was one on ones, but I can't see it. I've had Lacazette and Aubameyang missing sitters almost every game. Aubameyang in particular gets into good area, and always misses. I get more excited when David Luiz steps up to take a 30 yard free kick than when Aubameyang is one-on-one in the penalty area!

[ryandormer]

Case in point--this is Arsenal v Leyton Orient, FA Cup. Scraped a 2-1 win, at home. Both goals were headers from a corner and free kick.

Here is a graphic of the shots my team had in the game:

Only one outside the box. Most of the others were reasonable chances, a couple of them very clear chances. The finishing across the board is appalling.

(aware that this is going slightly off topic! But I'm wondering to what extent tactics can help resolve this issue)

[macca7292]

I don't think there's much wrong with your tactic.

A lot is down to personal preference but I'd be tempted to change your inside forward on the right to a winger on support and put the cm a on that side or even change the cm a to a BBM if you want to be a bit more defensive.

 

[BleuBurgers]

Dont know if you want to try this, but I typically have success with a dm and then a dlp(s) on left and mezzala (attack) on the right

left side i use and IW and WB(a) i. the right side depends but most times I use an IWB(s or d) and an IF support.  Usually pretty solid for me.  I dont really like the AP CM(a) combo.

Of course you have to play around with your TIs but this set up as been pretty good to me this year.

[ryandormer]

20 hours ago, BleuBurgers said:

I dont really like the AP CM(a) combo

What do you find to be the problem with this set-up?

20 hours ago, BleuBurgers said:

Dont know if you want to try this, but I typically have success with a dm and then a dlp(s) on left and mezzala (attack) on the right

I had almost that exact set-up last year, and just tried it in a recent game. In FM19, that was lethal. I had a HBd most of the time, but I changed that to a DMd, and left the DLPs and MEZa. It worked so well.

Here is my most recent result, using that set up:

I am on the verge of just getting rid of the game. I'm finding it borderline unplayable this year. Nothing has worked. The long ball over the top from the opponent is ridiculously good. I thought that was a problem with my set-up, so I removed all defending and transition instructions. So, on balanced, with normal line, normal LOE and no counter press. My defence were equally bad, just lower on the pitch, and I still got caught with long balls. I was 2-0 at half time. I added counter press at half time, and conceded another two goals. We created next to nothing. I have no idea how to get my team working.

I really appreciate all the suggestions, guys, I just can't get a single one of them to work!

[frukox]

10 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

What do you find to be the problem with this set-up?

I had almost that exact set-up last year, and just tried it in a recent game. In FM19, that was lethal. I had a HBd most of the time, but I changed that to a DMd, and left the DLPs and MEZa. It worked so well.

Here is my most recent result, using that set up:

I am on the verge of just getting rid of the game. I'm finding it borderline unplayable this year. Nothing has worked. The long ball over the top from the opponent is ridiculously good. I thought that was a problem with my set-up, so I removed all defending and transition instructions. So, on balanced, with normal line, normal LOE and no counter press. My defence were equally bad, just lower on the pitch, and I still got caught with long balls. I was 2-0 at half time. I added counter press at half time, and conceded another two goals. We created next to nothing. I have no idea how to get my team working.

I really appreciate all the suggestions, guys, I just can't get a single one of them to work!

What’s your current set-up, mate?

[ryandormer]

3 minutes ago, frukox said:

What’s your current set-up, mate?

In that game, it was this:

At half time, I ticked counter press to try to get the ball a little more.

My defence had been so bad that I thought I'd best go back to basics, and start with a 'clean slate' defensively. Long balls were still a serious issue.

[frukox]

11 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

In that game, it was this:

At half time, I ticked counter press to try to get the ball a little more.

My defence had been so bad that I thought I'd best go back to basics, and start with a 'clean slate' defensively. Long balls were still a serious issue.

You need a role keeping central backs in check. Maybe you can try a F9 running at them at pace delivering the ball to IFA, FBA or MEZA. Other than that, it looks good in terms of roles and duties. Maybe an WBS to exploit the space left by IFA. With regard to instructions, gun for an effective middle-press because you have pace and skill in the front line. Do you want to control the game or look for counterattacking opportunities? Both are viable options.

Edited December 9, 2019 by frukox

[ryandormer]

2 minutes ago, frukox said:

Maybe an WBS to exploit the space left by IFA

I'll certainly give that a go--I was concerned that with a FBa on the other side both wings would end up really vulnerable.

 

3 minutes ago, frukox said:

gun for an effective middle-press

Stupid question, but what is a middle-press, and what instructions would I use to achieve it?

[frukox]

5 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

I'll certainly give that a go--I was concerned that with a FBa on the other side both wings would end up really vulnerable.

 

Stupid question, but what is a middle-press, and what instructions would I use to achieve it?

It is a disruptive strategy which prevents the other team from moving the play from middle third to your defensive third. I would use Positive Mentality with Higher DL, Standard LOE, Get Stuck In, Higher Pressing Intensity, Defend Wider with the role DMS with Hold Position. You need to assign Tighter Marking to all of the midfielders, forwards and the striker. The attributes needed are Work-Rate, Stamina, Anticipation, Decisions, Composure, Bravery, Aggression, Concentration, Teamwork, Acceleration, Positioning, Marking and Tackling for CDs and DM.

Edited December 9, 2019 by frukox

[ryandormer]

1 minute ago, frukox said:

It is a disruptive strategy which prevents the other team from moving the play from middle third to your defensive third. I would use Positive Mentality with Higher DL, Standard LOE, Get Stuck In, Higher Pressing Intensity, Defend Wider with the role DMS with Hold Position. You need to assign Tighter Marking to all of the midfielders, forwards and the striker. 

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll try it out. Just out of curiosity, why 'defend wider'? To prevent the ball going to wingers? And why the DMs as opposed to DMd?

[frukox]

51 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll try it out. Just out of curiosity, why 'defend wider'? To prevent the ball going to wingers? And why the DMs as opposed to DMd?

I found defend-duty midfielders don’t take risk much and press at the border of defensive third, allowing the opposition stretch the game to the wings. Unless you are confident of dealing with crosses you don’t want any crosses to your penalty area. Another benefit is if you win the ball near the wings, your players’ pace and skill allow you to hit the opposition without letting them to settle. This is definitely what you would want with this kind of a set-up.

Edited December 9, 2019 by frukox

[BleuBurgers]

1 hour ago, ryandormer said:

What do you find to be the problem with this set-up?

I had almost that exact set-up last year, and just tried it in a recent game. In FM19, that was lethal. I had a HBd most of the time, but I changed that to a DMd, and left the DLPs and MEZa. It worked so well.

Here is my most recent result, using that set up:

I am on the verge of just getting rid of the game. I'm finding it borderline unplayable this year. Nothing has worked. The long ball over the top from the opponent is ridiculously good. I thought that was a problem with my set-up, so I removed all defending and transition instructions. So, on balanced, with normal line, normal LOE and no counter press. My defence were equally bad, just lower on the pitch, and I still got caught with long balls. I was 2-0 at half time. I added counter press at half time, and conceded another two goals. We created next to nothing. I have no idea how to get my team working.

I really appreciate all the suggestions, guys, I just can't get a single one of them to work!

Hmm, I'm going to mess around with it as arsenal and see what I can make of it to help you out a bit.   Sorry about that, this 433 has been working for me at all levels albeit slightly different positions and some different tis.  Let me mess around with it a bit and see if I can give you better info.  Dont want to be the reason you got fired hahaha. 

[Razor940]

I don't know if you have the right players tho.

[ryandormer]

35 minutes ago, BleuBurgers said:

Hmm, I'm going to mess around with it as arsenal and see what I can make of it to help you out a bit.   Sorry about that, this 433 has been working for me at all levels albeit slightly different positions and some different tis.  Let me mess around with it a bit and see if I can give you better info.  Dont want to be the reason you got fired hahaha. 

Oh don't worry--I've been sacked four times now, I can handle it! Really appreciate the help.

 

1 hour ago, frukox said:

I found defend-duty midfielders don’t take risk much and press at the border of defensive third, allowing the opposition stretch the game to the wings. Unless you are confident of dealing with crosses you don’t want any crosses to your penalty area. Another benefit is if you win the ball near the wings, your players’ pace and skill allow you to hit the opposition without letting them to settle. This is definitely what you would want with this kind of a set-up.

That makes sense, and I have found crosses (albeit from quite deep) to be an issue.

 

30 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

I don't know if you have the right players tho.

I always start saves without a first transfer window, so I'm stuck with what I have. I was unlucky that Aubameyang got injured, but he'll be back soon. I would have thought that the front three should work well, they all seem suited to the roles I've given them. The midfield should be ok, in theory. Torriera can defend, Guendouzi is suited to a deeper playmaker role, and Ceballos should be able to attack and create. Though the less said about the defence the better, in game and IRL.

[Razor940]

6 minutos atrás, ryandormer disse:

Oh don't worry--I've been sacked four times now, I can handle it! Really appreciate the help.

 

That makes sense, and I have found crosses (albeit from quite deep) to be an issue.

 

I always start saves without a first transfer window, so I'm stuck with what I have. I was unlucky that Aubameyang got injured, but he'll be back soon. I would have thought that the front three should work well, they all seem suited to the roles I've given them. The midfield should be ok, in theory. Torriera can defend, Guendouzi is suited to a deeper playmaker role, and Ceballos should be able to attack and create. Though the less said about the defence the better, in game and IRL.

The thing is, theorically yes, but in practice I don't know, you have to have in mind the individual quality of the rest of the league. On team report compare them. 

I'm in West Brom, I have good young players (better than yours tbh) with great potential, but once I compared them with the other teams I knew I had to change my approach.

[ryandormer]

1 minute ago, Razor940 said:

The thing is, theorically yes, but in practice I don't know, you have to have in mind the individual quality of the rest of the league. On team report compare them. 

I agree that the players won't compare with the best in the league across the board, but the attacking players are good. Aubameyang, Lacazette and Pepe are all, on paper, excellent players. Ceballos is good, better than average for the league I'd say. Guendouzi is getting there, but he's my best option in that position. Torriera is very good. But, as I say, let's leave the defence alone.

[ryandormer]

This thread has been really helpful--I've taken some inspiration from what a few different people have said, and also had the benefit of a January transfer window. Set up is now this:

Still undecided on the DM and striker roles, but they have been working like this so I've left it for the time being. Might change the HBd back to DMd. As per @BleuBurgers, the DLPs and MEZa have worked really well. I've dropped the right full back to FBs rather than FBa, the rationale being that both the MEZa and IWs will occupy the wing and the half space interchangeably--the FBa left us too exposed in defence, and too crowded in that area in attack.

The January window was excellent:

Whether it be the new players or the tactic, there has been a massive improvement.

I think @Razor940 may have been right about the players, in particular Aubameyang. Objectively, a really good player. However, he was useless in my tactic. He scored two goals in half a season. I've replaced him with Kluivert--ten years younger and not yet as good--and he's scored five goals in five games.

Thanks again for all the suggestions, guys.

[Robson 07]

So have you just hit upon some form or learned anything?

2 hours ago, ryandormer said:

...about the players, in particular Aubameyang. Objectively, a really good player. However, he was useless in my tactic.

This sounds like something I'd be concerned about if it were me.

[ryandormer]

9 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

So have you just hit upon some form or learned anything?

Hard to say. I think that I've learned to try to think of roles and duties in a more coherent fashion. For example, at right FB, did he need an attack duty? The IWs starts from an advanced wide position and moves inside; the MEZa starts inside and moves into an advanced wide position. Did I really need a third player moving into an advanced wide position on the same flank? On the other side, given that the IF is on attack, the FB position needed a support duty so as to avoid leaving that flank unnecessarily exposed. But was a FB duty enough? Although a FB gets forward, it's generally later than a WB, so during the build up the IFa could be marked by both the opposing RB and RCB. Therefore, it should be WB support, to retain some degree of defensive stability but also enough attacking threat to give the opposing RB a tough decision who to mark/close down. Even so, the WB is quite aggressive in attack, as (obviously) is the IFa, so the CM on that side needed a more conservative role (especially given the attacking CM on the other side).

Even so, some of it may just be luck, or hitting good form, or the players being a bit happier.

10 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

This sounds like something I'd be concerned about if it were me.

I was very concerned! Aubameyang should work as an IFa, but he was generally useless. He missed so many clear chances, and missed penalties. He needed to be replaced, and Kluivert is a much better fit.

[PhydomiR]

11 hours ago, ryandormer said:

Hard to say. I think that I've learned to try to think of roles and duties in a more coherent fashion. For example, at right FB, did he need an attack duty? The IWs starts from an advanced wide position and moves inside; the MEZa starts inside and moves into an advanced wide position. Did I really need a third player moving into an advanced wide position on the same flank? On the other side, given that the IF is on attack, the FB position needed a support duty so as to avoid leaving that flank unnecessarily exposed. But was a FB duty enough? Although a FB gets forward, it's generally later than a WB, so during the build up the IFa could be marked by both the opposing RB and RCB. Therefore, it should be WB support, to retain some degree of defensive stability but also enough attacking threat to give the opposing RB a tough decision who to mark/close down. Even so, the WB is quite aggressive in attack, as (obviously) is the IFa, so the CM on that side needed a more conservative role (especially given the attacking CM on the other side).

Think you're onto something here and also something i'm still learning. It's not to think of a shape but to think of the shape in different phases of play. On the attack your shape will be so different from when your defending or in a more neutral phase of play.