What makes the Vertical Tiki-Taka preset vertical?

[camoulton21]

Hi all, I'm trying to understand the preset tactical instructions better. My thinking is that by understanding why SI chose specific mentalities and instructions to create the various playing styles, I can make better decisions when trying to create my own play-style. I started with The Vertical Tiki-Taka preset as it fits closest to my preferred play-style. However, it is all the one that on the surface confuses me the most, mainly because it differs from my interpretation of this kind of style.

I always thought that a team being vertically focused would mean a high mentality. This is because higher mentalities increase passing directness and passing tempo which would make the team get the ball forward with more urgency, However, the Vertical Tiki-Taka preset selects a Balanced Mentality as well as both short passing and lower tempo TIs which in my mind isn't very vertical. Basically, my question is what gives this style the "emphasis on moving the ball vertically rather than side to side" that the tactics creator describes it as doing. If i could understand this better than that would help me give my own tactics that vertical combination play that make Vertical Tiki-Taka so in enticing.

Thanks in Advance.

Edited October 19, 2019 by camoulton21

[Piperita]

I don't have the exact instructions in front of me, so I can only speak generally.

The two key instructions are 'Play through the middle' and both Underlaps. The preset ebforces a play through the middle, deliberately keeping the deeper wide players narrow. This is essential the vertical part of the name: The flanks are bared in attack so the player combine centrally instead of controlling the entire pitch's width. 

Meanwhile tempo, directness, etc. are the Tiki-Taka part: The team controls pace and possession. Would it go fast and long, it'd a counter-hybrid or a less extreme Gegenpress. 

How do these two parts interact? There is one key effect: 

You can't do the back passes to the wingbacks who run down half the pitch or switch flanks or just help recycle possession for these lengthy passing streaks. They too are in the middle as extra body. This gives you an extra man in the middle to play with but also puts them into the big pressing areas. Both ensure the vertical play:

A) You can play forwards more easily through the amount of players. Instead of three lanes, you occupy one. Thus there is an easier, more straight-forward goal-to-goal path. 

B) Due to all the pressure your players can't hold onto the ball for too long. But as there are few dedicated wide men, you also can't stretch the pitch, keeping the ball constantly in play as all ball carriers are quickly pressured. So either the ball constantly moves around the one occupied lane, inevitably coming close with time. Or your players beat the press and win spaces by dribble+move. 

[zlatanera]

The Vertical Tiki Taka preset also by default has a Regista, which is the most direct DM playmaker. Whereas a DLP mostly looks to recycle possession (both Su and De have Hold Position selected) the Regista has Take More Risks among his instructions which encourages forwards play - although a Su duty on Balanced mentality with Play Through The Middle is ultimately only slightly forwards-thinking, so he’ll still play it to the CBs if needed.

[camoulton21]

Ok thanks guys I understand better. I'm gonna try to put what you've said in my own words just to make sure.

15 hours ago, Piperita said:

The two key instructions are 'Play through the middle' and both Underlaps. The preset ebforces a play through the middle, deliberately keeping the deeper wide players narrow. This is essential the vertical part of the name: The flanks are bared in attack so the player combine centrally instead of controlling the entire pitch's width. 

 

15 hours ago, Piperita said:

A) You can play forwards more easily through the amount of players. Instead of three lanes, you occupy one. Thus there is an easier, more straight-forward goal-to-goal path. 

"Play through the middle","Underlap", and I'm assuming "Very Narrow" in possession instructions mean that more players are stationed in the middle third of the pitch which helps to give the team a numerical advantage in this area. By having an overload centrally the team is able to better move the ball vertically through this area a they have more options, especially in more advanced positions as wide players are encouraged to come inside.

12 hours ago, zlatanera said:

The Vertical Tiki Taka preset also by default has a Regista, which is the most direct DM playmaker. Whereas a DLP mostly looks to recycle possession (both Su and De have Hold Position selected) the Regista has Take More Risks among his instructions which encourages forwards play - although a Su duty on Balanced mentality with Play Through The Middle is ultimately only slightly forwards-thinking, so he’ll still play it to the CBs if needed.

Something I've understood more recently is that the whole tactics creator is interlinked, so player roles and duties/ player instructions need to fit your play-style aswell. I guess this is what your saying. A Regista, for instance, is an effective role for this play-style because it plays forward because of its coded player instruction which helps to move the ball forwards from deeper areas that they operate in. I think I prefer a defensive midfielder that holds their position so that the team can recycle possession instead of what a Regista does with the roaming. But now I understand better why a Regista is effective with this play-style. I might try giving a DLP the 'take more risks' PI to give them the more vertical focus that a Regista naturally has.

[Robson 07]

I think the OP raises a good question.  We'd perhaps all learn a lot more by analysing things like presets than changing each other's lineups so that an inverted WB always lines up behind a MEZ. 

[zlatanera]

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

I think the OP raises a good question.  We'd perhaps all learn a lot more by analysing things like presets than changing each other's lineups so that an inverted WB always lines up behind a MEZ. 

IWB behind a MEZ?!? Are you insane?!? That’s no way to succeed in FM

[Robson 07]

 quite right.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, zlatanera said:

IWB behind a MEZ?!? Are you insane?!? That’s no way to succeed in FM

Don't be so sure 

[camoulton21]

Hi guys, after some testing that last couple days I have a few more things I'd like people's opinions on.

The three recommended formations for Vertical tiki-taka are 4-1-2-3 DM, 4-1-2-1-2 Narrow and 5-2-1-2 WB. From some of the previous comments on this thread I now understand the importance of the 'Very Narrow' and 'Focus Play Through Middle' to promote the central overloads that help make the team play more vertically in this area. The three suggested formations all vary in narrowness, so my question is are these specific TIs more important in the widest formation (4-1-2-3 DM)?

My thinking is that as this system plays with wingers these TIs would be more effective in creating the central overloads, as the wide players would be encouraged to play more in central areas. However, with formations without wingers (4-1-2-1-2 Narrow and 5-2-1-2 WB) as they already have many players in central areas these TIs would be less effective and could even cause the team to be overly centrally focused and therefore easier to defend against.

Could this line of thinking also apply to other TIs. For example 'Look for the Underlap' being more effective in formations with 2 wide men on each side compared to only one. Basically what I' m asking is do some of the preset team instructions apply to some of the recommended formations better than others.

Edited October 22, 2019 by camoulton21

[zlatanera]

Short answer: yes, some of the TIs are more important dependant on the formation. 

5 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

My thinking is that as this system plays with wingers these TIs would be more effective in creating the central overloads, as the wide players would be encouraged to play more in central areas. However, with formations without wingers (4-1-2-1-2 Narrow and 5-2-1-2 WB) as they already have many players in central areas these TIs would be less effective and could even cause the team to be overly centrally focused and therefore easier to defend against.

I wholeheartedly agree with this line of thinking. My own experiences with 4-3-1-2's on FM19 have followed this logic, wherein once I remove Play Narrower I get better performances. However you could also double down on it by playing a really, really narrow formation (for example in the 4-4-2 diamond you could have both CMs told to Sit Narrower and if you were using a full back roll with it available also tell them to Sit Narrower to see if the closeness of the players leads to better interplay. That's just me hypothesising though, I don't have any actual experience of doing that, and I'd imagine it'd work better with a bunch of technically and mentally really good players. 

5 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

Could this line of thinking also apply to other TIs. For example 'Look for the Underlap' being more effective in formations with 2 wide men on each side compared to only one. Basically what I' m asking is do some of the preset team instructions apply to some of the recommended formations better than others.

Certainly Look for the Overlap / Look for the Underlap could be unnecessary in a formation with lone wide players, and from my understanding - someone more knowledgeable please tell me if I'm wrong - if there is nobody ahead of the wing backs they don't try to cut inside as if underlapping a non-existent winger, but rather would stay wide similar to how IWB don't always look to cut in if fielded as lone wide players. But you can use them as a mentality modifier on the player - for example sometimes I decide an At duty on my full back / wing back is too much, and a Su duty is too little so I'd apply the Overlap TI purely to put their mentality slightly higher than Su. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by zlatanera

[camoulton21]

16 hours ago, zlatanera said:

I wholeheartedly agree with this line of thinking. My own experiences with 4-3-1-2's on FM19 have followed this logic, wherein once I remove Play Narrower I get better performances. However you could also double down on it by playing a really, really narrow formation (for example in the 4-4-2 diamond you could have both CMs told to Sit Narrower and if you were using a full back roll with it available also tell them to Sit Narrower to see if the closeness of the players leads to better interplay. That's just me hypothesising though, I don't have any actual experience of doing that, and I'd imagine it'd work better with a bunch of technically and mentally really good players. 

That's a pretty cool idea. I'm starting to think that the attacking width instruction might be the most important in defining this tactical style because of the need to balance the combination play through the centre as well as giving your team enough space to play in. The players at your disposals technical ability would definitely alter what you could get away with.

16 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Certainly Look for the Overlap / Look for the Underlap could be unnecessary in a formation with lone wide players, and from my understanding - someone more knowledgeable please tell me if I'm wrong - if there is nobody ahead of the wing backs they don't try to cut inside as if underlapping a non-existent winger, but rather would stay wide similar to how IWB don't always look to cut in if fielded as lone wide players. But you can use them as a mentality modifier on the player - for example sometimes I decide an At duty on my full back / wing back is too much, and a Su duty is too little so I'd apply the Overlap TI purely to put their mentality slightly higher than Su. 

I've seen a few people recommend doing this. I think I will start without it and then see what effect it as on my fullbacks.

[Fritz13]

On 20/10/2019 at 17:50, zlatanera said:

IWB behind a MEZ?!? Are you insane?!? That’s no way to succeed in FM

 

On 20/10/2019 at 22:33, Experienced Defender said:

Don't be so sure 

 

IWB on support duty linking with a MEZ on attack  

[Robson 07]

I knew the inverted wingback and mezzala reference would get bites 

 

[mhd420]

On 20/10/2019 at 15:05, Robson 07 said:

I think the OP raises a good question.  We'd perhaps all learn a lot more by analysing things like presets than changing each other's lineups so that an inverted WB always lines up behind a MEZ. 

IWB + MEZZALA + WINGER (on LM/RM strada) is a deadly combination on the sides

[Kelvinu]

Currently in the beta Guardiola has the preset of Vertical Tiki-taka

[henryzz]

IWB behind an offensive central midfielder makes some sense as the IWB would move into some of the space the the CM is vacating.

I think that the mentality is balanced rather than positive in order to allow more space in front and room for forward(vertical) passes(probably from the regista)

Edited November 13, 2019 by henryzz