Surviving with the big boys

[Harpoon76]

Into my 7th season with Crewe and things have been great.

Had consecutive two promotions from L2 up to the Championship, losing in the playoffs that season.  Got automatic promotion to the Premiership the next season and I thought we were going to survive our first season with the big boys until an 88th minute goal for Hull in the last match of the season kept them up and sent us down.

Had a few players pull faces as being relegated, so sold them on and picked up some new players.  Stormed through the Championship again, getting promoted with something like 8 games to spare.  Other than in the FA Cup, I didn't lose a match after the 26th October - probably the best season I've ever had playing FM.

My core tactic for that season was a 3-5-1-1:

I've played 3 x CBs and 2 x WBs all through the save, trying different formations with the CM, AM and forwards to get the best results.

I played Control rather than Standard as the default, though would often drop back to Standard and move to Fluid when I needed to be more patient to break down stubborn teams.

I've tried to strengthen the squad but even with a big budget (by Crewe standards), it's very difficult to attract players which are a genuine improvement over my squad.  Our small reputation hurts us - I've got something like £60 million in my transfer kitty ready to use.

My target for this season is just to try and survive in the Premiership, slowly dragging ourselves upwards.  I've got the board to spend a fair bit on the training and junior/youth facilities, so hopefully we'll get some decent regens coming through as well.

We've pulled off a few good results:

but some that make you want to bang your head on the desk.  The match against QPR is a good example.  Shots in the first half:

QPR didn't have a shot until one of my CBs gave away a soft penalty in the 43rd minute.  A few too many shots from outside the box but we should be ahead IMO - the QPR keeper made a number of good saves and Chris Smalling at RB was PoM.

So, tactics.  As QPR were below me in the table, I want to take points off them, so went with last season's tactic.

I've dropped back to Standard from Control to reduce the risk this season.  The three CBs should defend, with the WBR offering width and an attacking threat.  WBL should look to hold (given the CM(A) on his side) but occasionally get forward to cross.   CM(A) should be busting a gut to get into the box, the DLP(D) holding in front of the defence to recycle the ball when attacking.   The BBM should get forward later than the CM(A) and support the WBR on that side.

My first choice AP(A) has great vision (18), passing (17) and technique (17), though lower on flair (13) and finishing (13).  He should be finding the runners CM(A), BBM or WBR and creating the chances.  The CF(S) needs to hold up the ball to let the midfield get forward, lay off the ball and then attack the box.  I have tried a DLF(S) here as the PI of "Dribble More" for the CF means he'll often go charging up the pitch, then just run into a defender and turnover possession.

If anything, I think we struggle to find a sweet-spot between being patient in attack but play too sideways/backwards, so somebody takes a pot-shot from distance or the defence is able to reset and we can't find space in the box.

I've also got a second tactic to use where I feel a draw would be a good result (ie against the big boys with the best players).

I'm looking to absorb some pressure and then counter.  I don't want to park the bus for 90 minutes though - I don't believe my players are good enough not to make a mistake and give away a goal, so we still need to get forward and attack.

The DLP(D) has dropped back to be deeper, screening the defence.  I see a lot of 4-2-3-1 (AML, AMC, AMR and a striker), so I want the DLP to cover the AMC, so the CBs don't have to step up and leave holes.  Having the DM, I've gone more aggressive in the midfield, with a BWM(S), CM(S) and CM(A).  The DLF(S) should hold up the ball and wait for support, then help develop the counter-attack or attack.  Against the favoured 4-2-3-1, we should have 4, if not 5 men back to deal with 4 attackers.

This formation has done well at times, getting me the 3-1 win against Spurs in the EFL.  We had the lead against Arsenal but an OG equalised.  We should have re-taken the lead but somehow my best striker didn't score from here (below) and we then Icardi showed why his media description is World-class Striker and punished us.

I'd welcome suggestions to improve either tactic.  I only want to survive the season but I suspect the ability of the better players are always going to cause me problems.

[HUNT3R]

21 hours ago, Harpoon76 said:

My first choice AP(A) has great vision (18), passing (17) and technique (17), though lower on flair (13) and finishing (13).  He should be finding the runners CM(A), BBM or WBR and creating the chances.

I found this interesting. Transitions are being talked about a lot lately and I'm wondering if the AP/A is maybe too far ahead and combined with the role having dribble more PI (IIRC), doesn't allow enough time for the 2 midfielders to run beyond him? You mention patience being an issue and I'm wondering if this player is a big reason for it.

[Harpoon76]

Interesting thought - he's only Accomplished in CM (Natural as an AMC) though, plus only 10 for both Teamwork and Workrate so isn't going to bust a gut on the defensive side.

[Rash-forwards]

Sounds like you've done really well! My only suggestion to give your side more attacking impetus would be change the DLP(d) to a CM(d), something else in the DM strata, if you just want him to sit there and protect the back four. As a playmaker he will attract the ball more than other players, and as he is on a defend duty he will be more conservative in possession, playing sideways passes and trying to keep the ball more than make that killer pass. If you want a playmaker in the CM strata I would recommend a RPM, they offer great off the ball movement and they're on a support duty so will be a little more adventurous in their play than a DLP on defend. 

In my Salford save I play a 5-3-2 and have a RPM in the DM strata, who helps the defence out but also steps up into the midfield in possession, recommend giving it a go in your second tactic.

[Tajerio]

1 hour ago, Harpoon76 said:

Interesting thought - he's only Accomplished in CM (Natural as an AMC) though, plus only 10 for both Teamwork and Workrate so isn't going to bust a gut on the defensive side.

I don't think Hunter is necessarily suggesting you drop him down to CM.  Maybe try him on AP-S, in which case he'll tend to hold position and allow the midfielders to run beyond him.  He'll function like an attacking fulcrum in that gap in the 4-2-3-1.

If you haven't, you'll also want to take a look at how the PPMs across your side are likely to shape your attacking play--PPMs like Comes Deep To Get Ball and Gets Forward Whenever Possible, for instance, can result in your team behaving rather differently on the pitch than your shape, roles, and duties might suggest.

[Harpoon76]

Still utterly struggling to create any sort of quality chances.  Fixtures:

We played several matches against 10 men and barely seem to put two passes together, never mind threaten to score.

Bournemouth - 60 minutes against 10 men
Crystal Palace - 30 minutes
Blackburn - 50 minutes

I've try to be more patient, so drop deeper and passing the 10 men to "death", or being faster and more direct.  Neither seem to work and if anything, we seem to end up hanging up to get a point rather than pressing to get the win.

Primary tactic has evolved into this:

AP(S) is now in the CM level, so hopefully have more options in front and the WBR bombing pass him on the right.  CM(A) should still arrive later into attack.

Against Bournemouth's 10 men, I went to flat back 4, three CMs, moved the AP(S) into the hole so between their CM and CDs, with a Poacher and TM(S) up front.  My strikers didn't even register a shot in the whole match - only the SS and CM(A) are listed as shooting

FM doesn't half perplex me at times!

[Shakey]

Be interesting to see how you get on, I have just sealed promotion to the premiership with Shrewsbury, after 2 seasons in league 1 and 4 seasons in the championship. We have a few players who will be ok in the prem but am dreading the summer transfer window trying to sign the right players. After six seasons of hard work don't want to be losing every week and relegated by Christmas. 

[aderow]

I'd figure having a 3 CBs and a defensive duty in your midfield you can afford to be somewhat adventurous on wingbacks. Why not bump up your WBL to support? More width wouldn't hurt right?

[Harpoon76]

 

On 07/04/2017 at 22:08, Shakey said:

Be interesting to see how you get on, I have just sealed promotion to the premiership with Shrewsbury, after 2 seasons in league 1 and 4 seasons in the championship. We have a few players who will be ok in the prem but am dreading the summer transfer window trying to sign the right players. After six seasons of hard work don't want to be losing every week and relegated by Christmas. 

Good luck - my problem in strengthening the squad is that players who represent a genuine step-up in quality aren't interested in joining due to, AFAIK, our lower reputation.  I've had £50 to £60 million in the transfer kitty but very few players over £10m show up in the Scouting screen once you tick the realistic transfer / loan flags.  I work my scouts super-hard but turning up a player who they rate as being Premiership class "out of the box" is rare.

On 08/04/2017 at 07:53, aderow said:

I'd figure having a 3 CBs and a defensive duty in your midfield you can afford to be somewhat adventurous on wingbacks. Why not bump up your WBL to support? More width wouldn't hurt right?

The nemesis of only having WBs out wide is, IMHO, formations like a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 (AML/AMC/AMR).  Aggressive full backs over-lapping the WM or AML/AMR give me headaches.  I've got my WBs set to Close Down Less (or might even be Much Less), the theory being they won't step up to close down the attacker.  If the WBs do close down higher up the pitch, they let the attacker knock a ball down the line for the FB and suddenly we're in trouble...

Update to come on our progress shortly...

[jorgvandervloed]

@Harpoon76

Is there a reason why you've chosen the ''dribble less'' instruction? 

I think you should have a look at your midfield trio as with the CM (A) and BBM (S) both running up field it might make you a bit vulnerable, especially (based on the stars) as your DLP (D) and BBM (S) are among the weaker players in your starting line-up. Next to that, your WB's are the main outlet on the wings and one not making a lot of runs makes you less potent in attack in my opinion. You also said your striker is running up field and dribbles too much, in my opinion, this would be an indication that hes not getting enough support. An AM that's more of a runner would be more appropriate. 

Just a suggestion; 

                                  CS (S)

                                 AM (A)

               AP (S)   -   CM (D)   -   BBM(S)

WB (A)                                                      CWB (S)

               CD (D)   -   CD (D)   -   CD (D)

The AM (A) will be a jack of all trades really, but will be more of an attacking threat than the AP (A) and will score some goals hopefully. By having a more balanced midfield you can give your WB's a bit more freedom to go up field and I can see the WB (A) getting a lot of assists in this formation. The BBM (S) will be the runner from midfield and will be supported by the CWB (S); both roam from position so will create lots of chaos for your opponent.

Also, if players have the right attributes for the role but aren't familiar with the position on the field I wouldn't hesitate to use them there anyways. 

[Rashidi]

On 05/04/2017 at 17:31, Harpoon76 said:

f anything, I think we struggle to find a sweet-spot between being patient in attack but play too sideways/backwards, so somebody takes a pot-shot from distance or the defence is able to reset and we can't find space in the box.

That tactic reminds me so much of a system I used with Gloucester..and grats on making it to the Premiership/

I had almost the same system, and I find that we minnows are usually cast as cannon fodder when we get promoted, so there are several things we can do. A lot depends on what we have at our disposal. Now getting your players to become more direct at penetration is really a function of passing. So if you want them to be more direct adjust the passing of only those players you want delegated with that responsibility. I am not a big fan of changing other people's systems if they work. Now it has worked for you otherwise you would never have been promoted. THe problem now is that you are in the land where attributes are miles better than yours. So you need to give yourselves more than a token shot. I want you to look at your transitions and isolate exactly where they break up and thats the area you address.

a. are you having issues working the ball from defence to midfield? No fine. don't change, otherwise do something more simple by getting the keeper to boot up if you are faced with a lot of pressure.

b. are you having issues not getting out of a midfield transition..there are 2 phases here, where you build it up (consolidate) and when you penetrate ( which is when your side shifts into attack) Do you have issues here?

c. attack transitions, each time your team gets into the final third and begins an attack transition...they lose the ball. Now I suspect your DLF(S) could be an issue here, if he is trying to thread the pass. I also notice a few coming up to support. Turn him into a DF(D) instead, they hold up and play simple passes which would be perfect to allow more into play.

 

By the way its not a bad system , but sometimes you need to do things outside of the box to out perform, we actually played a similar system at Gloucester but we didn't play with strikers, I called that system the Pincer

 

 

[Harpoon76]

4 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

@Harpoon76

Is there a reason why you've chosen the ''dribble less'' instruction? 

 

To quickly answer that question, I want to make chances by keeping possession and moving the ball around.    We're not the most technically brilliant team and I don't want people running up a blind-alley by dribbling, something I felt a CF(S) did too much.  Although that player is now sold (he heard Man City were interested in and started pulling faces), he would get the ball (as a CF(S)) make good progress but then turn possession back over by not getting past the 1st or 2nd defender.

[Dr. Hook]

1 hour ago, Harpoon76 said:

To quickly answer that question, I want to make chances by keeping possession and moving the ball around.    We're not the most technically brilliant team and I don't want people running up a blind-alley by dribbling, something I felt a CF(S) did too much.  Although that player is now sold (he heard Man City were interested in and started pulling faces), he would get the ball (as a CF(S)) make good progress but then turn possession back over by not getting past the 1st or 2nd defender.

I am in agreement- I am still using dribble less with my club in the Scottish Prem. Unless a player is good at dribbling, decisions, and technique, he gets stripped of the biscuit in short order.

[aderow]

20 hours ago, Harpoon76 said:

The nemesis of only having WBs out wide is, IMHO, formations like a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 (AML/AMC/AMR).  Aggressive full backs over-lapping the WM or AML/AMR give me headaches.  I've got my WBs set to Close Down Less (or might even be Much Less), the theory being they won't step up to close down the attacker.  If the WBs do close down higher up the pitch, they let the attacker knock a ball down the line for the FB and suddenly we're in trouble...

Understandable. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you are automatically in trouble. A numerical advantage out wide for them means a numerical advantage you in the center, which should mean, more often than not your defenders etc should be dealing with crosses without too many issue. Just my opinion hypothetically speaking.

Btw how has Gribbin been for you? He's one of my favorite prospects in my save right now.

[Miek]

21 hours ago, Dr. Hook said:

I am in agreement- I am still using dribble less with my club in the Scottish Prem. Unless a player is good at dribbling, decisions, and technique, he gets stripped of the biscuit in short order.

How about Balance? I always thought balance was an important attribute for a good dribble? 

[Dr. Hook]

46 minutes ago, Miek said:

How about Balance? I always thought balance was an important attribute for a good dribble? 

Yeh that is a good one too! There are always so many attributes that can directly affect things, I get boggled and just get as reductionist as I can while still getting a result. Without the three I named, balance or no, that guy isn't pulling off enough successful dribbles to make it worthwhile. Without good balance, he is in trouble in traffic for sure.

[Harpoon76]

Well, we survived, finishing 12th with 46 points

Had a good run from the start of 2023 after losing to Man Utd (only 1-0) on New Year's Eve.  From then we only lost to Chelsea & Arsenal to point we guaranteed safety with 3 matches to go.  Rotated the squad a bit then to give some other players a chance but was still disappointed to lose the last 3 games. 

We only conceded 47 goals, the best of anyone outside the top 5.  But, we only scored 37 so attack would seem to be the be where we need to improve.

Perhaps @aderow has a point about released in the WBL from Defend to Support, though even with the 3 CDs, we still lost the West Ham match to two crosses:

To re-cap, current tactic:

I did try @Rashidi's suggestion about using a DF(D) but I felt that still had the problem of him moving into the box once he's held up and then passed the ball (the WBR would cross but there's more way defenders than attackers).  We did score a lovely goal through great link between the AMC and striker against Newcastle though:

More thought needed!

 

[Harpoon76]

On 11/04/2017 at 06:35, aderow said:

 

Btw how has Gribbin been for you? He's one of my favorite prospects in my save right now.

He's scored some top drawer DFKs - 13 goals and 7 assists in the last two seasons for me.  His low concentration (9) and teamwork / work rate (both 10) go against him as an AM(A) though, as I feel I have better options in central midfield for playmakers now (eg this re-gen I picked up on a free - after he joined I only realised he's the first Wonderkid I've had)

 

[Torskus77]

Quite interesting to me this thread, as it has some similarities to my own save.  Mine is with Walsall, so didn't have quite as far to rise from, but you end up in the same kind of position when you get to the Premier League. It is my second save on FM17. I played one, but I used a third party programme for signing players, and I just wasn't getting a feeling of achievement in the end. So I restarted, without any cheating at all, only using scouted players within the game.  Back to back promotions was pretty easy to be honest, even easier than the first save, probably cos I had a bit more experience. I use 3 tactics all the way. First 2 seasons was mainly 4-4-1-1, then second season 4-4-1-1 4-1-2-2 , then this season first in the Premier League, those two + 5-3-1-1 like yourself, although mine is classed as an asymmetrical version as my AM isn't right behind the striker, I have the striker one side, and the AM the other. 

 

My 4-4-1-1 really struggled early on this season in the Premier League, Rashidi's point is a very true one, it is completely different, you are coming up against some great players, and you have inferior attributes to most teams. I was getting tortured in midfield, it was blatantly obvious, so that tactic only comes out for certain circumstances now. I would give Rashidi's  "building a team to win" thread a good read if you haven't. You are right, that even with money it is hard to come by good players with a low rep. You can get some good players in though, they may not be top class in all areas, but you  need key attributes for each role you use that can get you players that will do you a fine job.  I read that thread just before I started my Premier League season, it helped me so much with my recruitment. I Didn't have a lot of money either, which made it more difficult, but I managed to get a squad of about 18 players I could use, with a lot of them that could play several positions/roles for me.  It is something I have not really got properly in the past, just how important your players are. You get so focused on having a good tactic, but when you are trying to bridge a gap in quality, you have to take that in to consideration when signing players and building your system. I knew I was never going to win trying to out play teams at football (although I have ridiculously good possession stats) So I signed a lot of hard working players, and just a few who could make something happen for me. Couple of loan players I was lucky enough to get which gave me slightly more quality than I could have signed full time. Gonna struggle to keep them for next season, as they are considered good players now I have given them a year playing well at a high level.  Sam Vokes is my main striker, he is pretty average at best, I reckon he could do some real damage in the Championship but his attributes mostly aren't cut out for the Premier League. However his physical stats are really good, and he has been enough of a battering ram for my team to play off. His ratings aren't actually that good, but just watching the games, you can tell he is doing the job I signed him for. 

 

My team salary per annum is 15.47 million, the next lowest team is over 29 million and the next one after that is over 45 million.  I have about 4 games left and have managed to push up to 10th in the league, wont get any higher cos the gap is large to 9th, but 10th is really good I think. I have also amazingly got to the F.A Cup Final, beating Arsenal Man City and Man United on the way. Chelsea in the Final !  Probably one of my most enjoyable seasons ever playing FM, because I achieved it by planning and trawling through players for what felt like days.  

 

Anyway my 5-3-1-1 tactic, it's slightly different to yours. I could really get many players good enough to play DL (D) but there were a few players that could play CM (d) or BWM (d) so I got a couple of good players for that position, I actually use BWM (d) my main man there cost 200k and is on 7k a week, he has been awesome, performed better than some of the top class players I have bought for defensive roles in the past. I did use a DLP (s) in the midfield strata, changed him to a CM (s) with a few player instructions, then same as yourself have a CM (A) (Brilliant role)  I have it all linking up lovely now, after tweaking it constantly. I am hoping when I can upgrade a couple of players, especially in defence, I will be better. I guess this isn't much help to you, I just got a bit carried away there. I just noticed you did move your AM over on one of your newer versions. I have my CM (A) Behind my AM (a) who i have tried as a shadow striker too. I find it adds a layer to your attack, your CM (A) Moves in to the space left by you AM (A) Who really does get forward a lot. It's very difficult to predict how things will look without actually watching it. So I guess keep trying, and good luck !

[Harpoon76]

Thanks again all who have made suggestions.

Start of the 2023/24 season and, blimey, were up inside the top 10!

We should have drawn against Leicester - their stoppage time winner came from my keeper diving for a shot and then making no attempt to stop hugging his goal post (bug report here)

I wasn't happy with my CM(A).  The best players I had for that slot only have 11 or 12 for finishing, so whilst they might get into the box, I found they weren't beating Premier League class keepers.  The Swansea match I tried 2 AMs (AM(S) and SS) with a single striker to score more.  Walsall onwards I've been using this:

Dropped from Flexible to Structured to spread the lines out more (give space for passing and moving) and, I hope correctly, put the creative emphasis on the, erm, creative roles eg the AP(S).  The DLF(S) has Roam from Position enabled to go towards being a CF(S) without the hard coded Dribble More PI.  He should come deep (my first choice has the PPM of "Comes Deep to Get Ball"), leaving space for the AM(A) to blast into, with the Poacher given him a passing option.  There has been some lovely link-up between the front three, cutting teams to pieces.

My AP(S) starts it to the AM(C), he knocks it to the DLF, back-heel to the AMC and he tees it up for my poacher to hammer it home.  Lovely.

The win against Chelsea was hugely enjoyable as I think we were genuinely the better team.  With high hopes of being close to 40 points by the New Year, we hit the December matches.  The lowest target the board would settle for this year is Not be Relegated - eek!

And it all goes wrong

Tottenham out played us but my AM(A) missed 1-on-1 with the keeper.  Against Man Utd we played 60 minutes with 10 men after my WB(L) got a straight red, so perhaps 3-0 isn't too bad in that situation.  They seemed to have so much pace, we were chasing shadows.  They hadn't lost in 20 matches either, so that's where I want to be!

Stoke was a pretty even match, but having gone a goal down and then taken the lead at 2-1, I was really frustrated with the result.  My strikers seem to get over-excited and shoot from too far out:

But the Bournemouth match?  Three-nil down after 50 minutes due to a screamer from outside the box and two direct FKs:

We had one shot on target and Bournemouth were playing the Premier League fave' formation of 4-2 (CM) - 3 (AMC) - 1, so weren't exactly parking the bus.

I know I've dropped a CM in favour of a striker, but we've stayed on Standard so that's not too gung-ho is it?  I've still got 3 x CBs, a WB and a CM on Defend.  I did lose my best keeper in the win against Derby and my Wonderkid WB(R) in the Bournemouth Cup win (he had all three assists against Derby!).

So, perplexed once again!

[Torskus77]

12 isn't a bad stat for finishing for a midfielder to be honest, and I find Composure is more important when it comes to good chances. I have had plenty good strikers actually that have played support roles with 12 finishing.  I know that's not a super helpful post, but it is worth bearing in mind.  The CM (a) is one of my favourite roles,  but the box to box midfielder with gets further forward is equally as good, just gets forward slightly later than the CM (a) 

 

Nothing wrong with the 5-3-2 formation though. Personally I'd prefer the strikers swapped. I've used this set up before, the DLF links nicely with the WB (a)  I probably wouldn't choose an advance playmaker in midfield but I am sure it's okay, and he will use the space in front of your WB (D) and hopefully feed your poacher from that side of the pitch. 

[Harpoon76]

Update time as I've not long finished the 2023-24 season.

I swapped the forwards over based on @Torskus77 suggestion (cheers!), so have spent around half the season with this:

After the wobbles I previously posted about, we shut Liverpool out away from home.  Bar a dodgy penalty decision which my GK saved, they didn't cause us too much grief at all.  Leicester's unusual formation (4-2-3-1 with 3 x AMCs and a striker) gives me headaches at the best of times, so I took that on the chin and moved on.  The crazy match against Watford saw us score two own goals but get the win thanks to scoring 3 times in 7 minutes - bonkers but hugely satisfying to come out on top.

We did pretty well after that, getting as a high as 4th in the league before we got a nose-bleed from being so far up.  We finished an impressive 6th, so means we'll be off to the back-end of Eastern Europe for the Europa on a Thursday night next season.  I can see the EFL becoming the youngsters cup!

We beat Man City, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool and Arsenal in the later part of the season.  Highlight was spanking Man City 5-1.  Mr Zidane is managing them, playing a old-school 4-4-2 but with a very high, if not suicidal, defensive line.  We just kept plonking balls over the head of the CDs, giving my strikers a field day.  Our poacher bagged his hat-trick, with a brace from his DLF(S) buddy.

My front three have had a good season together:

Calvaruso I got from Inter for a steal at £3.3m - he's my poacher.  Would like him to have more pace (13) but has 18 strength so can bully most CDs.

Julienne - AMC(A)
Calvaruso - Poacher
Louinci - DLF

Does show I'm reliant on the front three banging in the goals though, as nobody else got close to scoring double figures (Niklas Carl is my backup striker).  The 5th and 6th highest scores are the WB(A) on the right of the pitch.

Not looking forward to next season though.  My wonderkid AP(S) pulled his face about joining OM, so we fell out and he joined Arsenal for £45m (not bad given he was a free transfer originally though).  Julienne (AMC) has heard AC Milan are interested, so he wants to join them.  Cost £30m but his Champions League release clause is £49m so hopefully a profit to be had there.  Looks like a busy transfer window!