Not doing well.... (FM 17 Beta)

[zigaliro]

Hello! 

I`m currently managing Barcelona, so it should be pretty easy, but it`s not.... I`m actually struggling. I`m trying to play possession based football and it`s not working, we are not keeping possession well. I want my team to have 60%+ possession but its just not working. Our current average possession in league is 53%(from two matches only), but if I also count all friendly matches, our average possession would be 57% which is not good. I want avg. possession to be at least 60%. I notice that we usually struggle to keep possession in the first half(only around 55% possession) but then later in the second half we gain more possession.

And also I just lost 3-1 to Real Madrd, very poor. Most of the goals we conceded came from our mistakes. so please help me figure how I could improve the tactics. It`s basicly the same tactics I used in FM 16 which it was quite sucessful.

 

Tactics: https://postimg.org/image/3ohtupc83

Player instructions: Close down more on every player except both center backs. Also close down less on both center backs.

Team Report: https://postimg.org/image/opfhyyz3t

Analysis: https://postimg.org/image/kq9m1nbil

 

 

 

[eye-switcher]

wrong forum

[zigaliro]

3 minutes ago, eye-switcher said:

wrong forum

How`s this wrong forum?

[yonko]

Whatever I used in FM16 actually works better on FM17 so far. But instead of telling you what tactic I use, I rather help you develop yours from the examples above.

First, consider what kind of style you want to play. Obviously you want to play possession football. Think about what combination of Mentality, Shape and Team Instructions will create your base to build from. Why are you using lower tempo instead of Retain Possession? Is Control the best mentality for possession football? Are you doing enough to regain possession of the ball? How is your team going to use that possession to create chances and finish them off?

Second, consider the players' roles and their duties. How do you need to balance that through out the team? How are players connecting on the field? Does your attack have variety? 

Third, team cohesion and tactics familiarity are very important, especially for possession tactic. Looking at your screenshot, I can guess that you haven't gone through a very good proper pre-season. You need to train your team on cohesion and tactics familiarity and also set up as many friendly matches (against easy opponents) as possible every 3 days until your first official match. I usually choose to start the save on July 1st as this gives me plenty of time for pre-season. A little additional tip: set up one tactic and do not change it through the pre-season.

[jazzyboy]

How and where does your team lose the ball typically? I have a feeling it would be your forwards getting the ball, isolated and took long shots

[zigaliro]

21 minutes ago, jazzyboy said:

How and where does your team lose the ball typically? I have a feeling it would be your forwards getting the ball, isolated and took long shots

Yes I see quite alot of times my forwards just shoot long shots.... 

 when we played against Real Madrid, we lost 3-1, and the defenders were the one losing the ball all the time(and midfielders too), so it was very poor match by us. https://postimg.org/image/91cige9st/

Then the next match it was against Malaga. 0-0 draw. 21 shots! But only 4 on target. My forwards were keep losing the ball in opponent`s half. Very poor again.

 

 

[jazzyboy]

10 minutes ago, zigaliro said:

Yes I see quite alot of times my forwards just shoot long shots.... 

 when we played against Real Madrid, we lost 3-1, and the defenders were the one losing the ball all the time(and midfielders too), so it was very poor match by us. https://postimg.org/image/91cige9st/

Then the next match it was against Malaga. 0-0 draw. 21 shots! But only 4 on target. My forwards were keep losing the ball in opponent`s half. Very poor again.

 

 

The lost possessions by your defenders were most likely clearances. I don't see that being a problem, the ones by the forwards though would kill flow of offense and resulted in you being counter attacked and your defense have to make clearances. How often do you see the midfield/def ping a pass to your forward and left him by himself to create something?

Usually long shots indicate lack of support. You have 4 players that will look to dribble and play through ball (ap,cf,ifs), both actions have high chance of losing the ball, also with control mentality which encourages more risk taking.

Control also by default makes your players wider apart from each other which could make your forwards being isolated from each other and none of your mf will make run off him which would encourage him to dribble into a cul-de-sac and shoot.

I would consider changing the ap-a to cm-a and cf-s to dlf-s as you don't need dribblers in those areas, just someone advanced enough for your cm-s/if-s to link up.

@yonko above posted great points to consider.

[yonko]

48 minutes ago, zigaliro said:

Yes I see quite alot of times my forwards just shoot long shots.... 

 when we played against Real Madrid, we lost 3-1, and the defenders were the one losing the ball all the time(and midfielders too), so it was very poor match by us. https://postimg.org/image/91cige9st/

Then the next match it was against Malaga. 0-0 draw. 21 shots! But only 4 on target. My forwards were keep losing the ball in opponent`s half. Very poor again.

 

 

If your players are taking a lot of long shots that is usually a sign for lack of better options. Which means your offense lacks variety and movement.

[Cougar2010]

10 hours ago, yonko said:

If your players are taking a lot of long shots that is usually a sign for lack of better options. Which means your offense lacks variety and movement.

This.

Everyone is standing around too much wanting the ball to feet.  You have no-one regularly making runs in the final third to stretch the defence and as you are Barcelona most of the opposition teams are going to sit back more & deny you space.

The way I see it is your players are discouraged from playing counter passes when the opposition defence is out of position (Shorter passing, lower tempo, lots of support duties) which gives the opposition time to get back and set the defence.  Once in position your team are discouraged from making runs in behind and you seem to want them playing lots of passes in front of the opposition defence.  On top of that you also discourage them from running at the defence to take them on one on one which is odd given the quality of players you have at your disposal.

Overall your style seems to be play the ball around in front of the opposition defence to draw them forward and open space behind.  Unfortunately this generally won't work very well a lot of the time because the defence will be happy for you to do that, especially when the scores are level and almost certainly when you play at home.  The time it will work better is when the opposition are behind and need to chase the game, they will gamble more looking to close you down leaving gaps for your team to exploit.

[zigaliro]

Thanks all for the help. I didn`t know I`m such a noob at making tactics xD I`ll try to make tactics better, maybe even restart the save. 

[zigaliro]

Alright, so these are the changes I made to the tactics:

Roles:

- Changed ap(sup) to cm(atk)

- Changed cf(sup) to DLF(sup)

Instructions:

-Removed lower tempo

-Removed close down more

-Added Retain possession

 

The first match that I played with this tactics was against Club Brugge, and we did amazing, won 3-1 and 64% possession, I thought that finally we can retain possession good. 

Next match was against Valencia, won 3-0, based on the scoreline it looked like we did great, but they actually had same shots on target as us(9) and we were sturggling to keep possession. Well, at the end we had 58% possession, but in the first half only around 53%

Then the next game against Athletic Bilbao, again pretty good, won 5-0, but again problem with possession, only 51% possession!

And now the last match i played was terrible. 0-0 draw, and only 50% possession. So it went from good to worse.

I checked the analysis and noticed that most of the time we lose the ball right outside their box.

So I don`t know what else to do to retain possession and do better!! Maybe I should just restart and completely redo the tactics. 

[Cougar2010]

Why do you want more possession?

Possession doesn't win games, goals do.

You seem a bit too fixated on keeping the ball with not enough emphasis on trying to score/win.

[zigaliro]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

Why do you want more possession?

Possession doesn't win games, goals do.

You seem a bit too fixated on keeping the ball with not enough emphasis on trying to score/win.

Ok you are right, but I just  love to see my team have alot of possession. And also my board told me I need to play possession football.

[Cougar2010]

10 minutes ago, zigaliro said:

Ok you are right, but I just  love to see my team have alot of possession. And also my board told me I need to play possession football.

While possession is important it seems to be overvalued by some users.

You can have all the possession in the world but if its in your own half and the passes are between your defenders its meaningless. 

I suspect looking at the changes you've made that this is the case for the opposition, as you are Barcelona they'll be keeping the ball at the back passing it about amongst their defenders a fair bit before coming forwards.  You've taken out close down more which allows them to do this easier.

I'll point out here there is no right or wrong answer, its simply a choice.  If they are doing that and you are happy for them to have possession in "safe" areas thats fine.  If you want to go pressure the ball more and get more possession yourself thats fine as well.  In fact its a choice I make on a game by game & minute by minute basis myself based on what else is happening on the pitch and the scoreline at the time.

 

[vangto]

I am playing as Man Utd and I keep getting beat nearly every game no matter what tactics and formation I use.
Really struggling at the moment, never had such problems in the past games.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, vangto said:

I am playing as Man Utd and I keep getting beat nearly every game no matter what tactics and formation I use.
Really struggling at the moment, never had such problems in the past games.

Then you should start your own thread, provide your detailed tactical set up and maybe someone will be able to help you.

[tyro]

10 hours ago, vangto said:

I am playing as Man Utd and I keep getting beat nearly every game no matter what tactics and formation I use.
Really struggling at the moment, never had such problems in the past games.

It is definitely not the game. I find everything much more polished and anything that worked in fm16 works now as well.

I'm playing with Manchester united myself and it is possible to win. 

Best thing would be to post your set up and then let the guru's take a look at it. 

[zigaliro]

(Yes I know my English is bad)

But seriously, in FM 17 its much harder to keep possession then in 16... Just tried for fun to see how much possession I would get, so I set standard + work ball in to the box + retain possession + shorter passing + dribble less and still poor possession... You just can`t keep possession in fm 17.

Anyways, my tactics is still not good. My team plays rubbish sometimes, and other time it plays great. I beat Dortmund 3-1, so tactics should be great. But it`s not. Just lost 2-0 to Tottenham, absolutely terrible, Didn`t even recognize Barcelona in my team. Tottenham had 30 shots, 11 ON TARGET!! My team... ONLY 1 SHOT ON TARGET!! I`m seriously thinking about giving up. Now while I`m writing I`m also losing 2-0 to Osasuna. I`m basicly lost. I`m also trying different things, maybe that could also be the reason because I`m changing tactics too much. It`s even harder than FM 16.

And why my team is keep losing the ball? Well, because my player just makes a bad pass, or tries to dribble and lose the ball, or he shoots for no reason from distance.

 

[herne79]

3 hours ago, zigaliro said:

You just can`t keep possession in fm 17.

And yet just a few threads below this one there is someone else using the same formation as you who has too much possession and a lack of penetration.  Might be worth your while checking that thread out.

https://community.sigames.com/topic/384088-fm-16-4-1-4-1-possession-based-football-lacking-of-scoring-chances/

Also, please mind the language.

[yonko]

I disagree. I don't find it difficult at all to keep possession. It's pretty much the same as FM16, I'm even using the same tactic. I like that my midfielders rack up high amount of passes and pass completion percentage. I have 3 slight variations of my tactic and I'm happy with all 3 of them. All I've done is read what is available from various forums on high possession and high pressing tactics and put it all together to my liking.