Warm up, squad...

[mfcarton]

Hi,

First of all, I want to apologise for my English level, as I'm Spanish and a long time ago since the last one that I had to write in Shakespeare's language!

I wanted to tell you about a few things that I miss in this game, and I think it could be easy to introduce. One of them is the warm up. Choosing who of your substitutes, and when, have to warm up before they come (or not) into the pitch, and its effect about player's happiness (we always see a lot of guys getting upset as they warm up a lot for playing a few minutos, or even to not play), form (it's not the same going into with time, or doing it because of an injury or something similar).

Another idea is introducing the squad calls. Up to now, you have to name your staring lineup and your substitutes in the same day of the match. It would be great if, the day before, you must name your squad for the match. And even greater if I had the option to choose if our team travels the same day (Guardiola style), the day before; if players are allowed to home sleep when playing home matches... And any other similar options, as being able to name 19 or 20 squad players and ruling out one or two in the locker.

Kind regards,

 

Manuel

 

[pickyimp]

Another good point to this would be when you are traveling to an away game you name the players who you want to travel on the team coach and name the squad from that? No club ever takes the whole squad on the coach to a game

[borivoje213]

8 hours ago, pickyimp said:

Another good point to this would be when you are traveling to an away game you name the players who you want to travel on the team coach and name the squad from that? No club ever takes the whole squad on the coach to a game

But.....we don't take any players on the team coach in FM.  Where did this coach come from?

Am I missing something?

[Maaka]

28 minutes ago, borivoje213 said:

But.....we don't take any players on the team coach in FM.  Where did this coach come from?

Am I missing something?

No, that's the point. Theoretically, a team only brings a certain number of players to an away game, while in FM, you've got your entire squad (including reserves/youths) to pick from when you "arrive" at the stadium right before KO..
For the realism, one should have to name a squad before you "travel", which should depend on the distance you travel. For European games, I'd say two days in advance, so the squad is "final" before you leave on the plane, while for a short bus ride, the day before would suffice.

[borivoje213]

27 minutes ago, Maaka said:

No, that's the point. Theoretically, a team only brings a certain number of players to an away game, while in FM, you've got your entire squad (including reserves/youths) to pick from when you "arrive" at the stadium right before KO. For the realism, one should have to name a squad before you "travel"

I don't think that's true.  Come match day you get presented with your squad screen and you make a selection from there. Once it asks you to submit your team for the fixture I believe that is the moment the game executes the "travelling to stadium" whether it be home/away game. 

27 minutes ago, Maaka said:

which should depend on the distance you travel. For European games, I'd say two days in advance, so the squad is "final" before you leave on the plane, while for a short bus ride, the day before would suffice.

To be pedantic perhaps one should have to select a final team to "travel" a certain number of game days before games in other countries.  But what do you expect to physically happen during that time in terms of game mechanics? Things like fatigue could be taken into account regardless of perceived in-game logistics. 

The only practical difference I can see is being faced with the submit team screen coming up early sometimes, and then being presented with yet another confirmation on match day saying "are you ready to go to the stadium now?"

I understand the need for realism but surely there needs to be some practical impact. I saw something in a similar thread about Managers who make their team travel same day or day before with their team because certain managers do it differently....again, what is the actual impact? Yes in real life managers make this choice, but it's a personal preference of each manager. If there is some tangible in-game benefit that differentiates the 2 then it can't give one preference over the other because then everyone would be stupid not to choose the more beneficial option, and then it doesn't really become a choice at all.

I'm not dismissing this out of hand.  But there doesn't appear to be any actual in-game reason to do it apart from realism, and all it serves to do is make that particular mechanic of the game less friendly.

[Maaka]

 

1 minute ago, borivoje213 said:

I don't think that's true.  Come match day you get presented with your squad screen and you make a selection from there. Once it asks you to submit your team for the fixture I believe that is the moment the game executes the "travelling to stadium" whether it be home/away game.

"Come match day", yes, while IRL, you'd have to pick your squad (not team, as in starting 11) before you travel to the away game.

And how would this make the game so much less user friendly, compared to what it would enhance realism?

[borivoje213]

So let me get this straight....you want to select a set number of people to take abroad 2 days before a match....then 2 days later have to select the team + subs you want to play the actual game.....

What do you expect to happen during those two in-game days? What would you do differently on the day that you hadn't pre-planned 2 days prior?

Unless there is some inexplicable thing that happens to the squad in those days that affects your opinion of line-up, like unexpected affect on the morale of certain players.

[stevomcdevo]

In real life the manager will probably pick his first 11, but will then probably select a pool of maybe 8 players to have 'ready' on a matchday and then he will select his subs from them. Incase someone gets injured in the warm up for example. And sometimes managers select young players to be involved in the match day squad and include them in warmups but with no intention of putting them in the team or subs. Just there for the match day experience. 

[borivoje213]

OK so a friend of mine has just [replied before my reply without me even knowing ] pointed out that IF you implement warm-ups, the tangible realism benefits from that are A)  You might suffer injury during the warm-up of players of questionable fitness you gambled on and then would have to rely on the squad you selected to take. B) The warm-up could also be used to assess the whether a recovering key player is fit enough for the match or not.

THAT is practical benefit to enhance realism that I'm talking about.

HOWEVER, having to go through 2 rounds of player selection (squad travel and matchday selection) nearly every other match is the kind of "less user friendly" thing I'm referring to. 

It sounds like a complete ball-ache to have to do for what is a slim feature. Unless you can flesh it out with something more, I'm all ears.

[stevomcdevo]

I dont know how much difference having a youth player in your matchday squad would do for his morale and experience but that's the only thing i could see the pre match squad pick being useful for. With regards to injuries in the warm up etc. It could just notify you before the start of the match if it happens, the same way in which it tells you if a player is injured during the match. You would then have to choose your replacements. 

Not saying id like to see this, but think this is how youd do it. 

[doucong]

13 hours ago, borivoje213 said:

So let me get this straight....you want to select a set number of people to take abroad 2 days before a match....then 2 days later have to select the team + subs you want to play the actual game.....

What do you expect to happen during those two in-game days? What would you do differently on the day that you hadn't pre-planned 2 days prior?

Unless there is some inexplicable thing that happens to the squad in those days that affects your opinion of line-up, like unexpected affect on the morale of certain players.

Though I don't feel I 100% like this idea as it make the game more time consuming, I do think plan the squad 2 day prior make a difference:

* Knowing the opponent team squad, limited combinations which help us select the start up 11 or rage opponent players in interviews;

* Player may get injury in these 2 days;

* Player may happy/unhappy about the selection (now we kick off immediately after submit team so player have no time to react unhappy about not select captain for example);

* The most important one, if we have Premier league on Sunday and an away Champion league game on Wednesday, we may need to decide the squad immediately after the Premier league, and at that point of time we do not know how much stamina the player will recovery, so unlike we can submit the team on Wednesday just before kick off now, we need to predict their fitness, so may need better team selection management and more favor good natural fitness players.

[Maaka]

14 hours ago, borivoje213 said:

So let me get this straight....you want to select a set number of people to take abroad 2 days before a match....then 2 days later have to select the team + subs you want to play the actual game.....

What do you expect to happen during those two in-game days? What would you do differently on the day that you hadn't pre-planned 2 days prior?

Unless there is some inexplicable thing that happens to the squad in those days that affects your opinion of line-up, like unexpected affect on the morale of certain players.

If that's how it really works IRL, then, yeah.
What could happen is as stated by doucong here, a player who's omitted from the squad can react in time before the game, as he would IRL, and you could have PC questions about why player X is omitted, or player Y is included, which expands on the realism.
As well, you could talk to player Z about having left him out of the league squad so that he'll be fit in time for the important continental game two/three days later.

[Maaka]

1 hour ago, doucong said:

Though I don't feel I 100% like this idea as it make the game more time consuming, I do think plan the squad 2 day prior make a difference:

* Knowing the opponent team squad, limited combinations which help us select the start up 11 or rage opponent players in interviews;

* Player may get injury in these 2 days;

* Player may happy/unhappy about the selection (now we kick off immediately after submit team so player have no time to react unhappy about not select captain for example);

* The most important one, if we have Premier league on Sunday and an away Champion league game on Wednesday, we may need to decide the squad immediately after the Premier league, and at that point of time we do not know how much stamina the player will recovery, so unlike we can submit the team on Wednesday just before kick off now, we need to predict their fitness, so may need better team selection management and more favor good natural fitness players.

Pretty much, yes.

Fwiw, I'm not saying this is a must-have right now, I'm just saying it's something that could be added to enhance realism, and imo it wouldn't negatively affect the player (I respect you (borivoje) feel otherwise by having to confirm the squad "twice", but I don't agree that it would be a big hazzle).

[borivoje213]

2 hours ago, doucong said:

Though I don't feel I 100% like this idea as it make the game more time consuming, I do think plan the squad 2 day prior make a difference:

* Knowing the opponent team squad, limited combinations which help us select the start up 11 or rage opponent players in interviews;

* Player may get injury in these 2 days;

* Player may happy/unhappy about the selection (now we kick off immediately after submit team so player have no time to react unhappy about not select captain for example);

* The most important one, if we have Premier league on Sunday and an away Champion league game on Wednesday, we may need to decide the squad immediately after the Premier league, and at that point of time we do not know how much stamina the player will recovery, so unlike we can submit the team on Wednesday just before kick off now, we need to predict their fitness, so may need better team selection management and more favor good natural fitness players.

Yeah I like the sound of that.

[Cougar2010]

Pretty sure we've had a couple of threads on this idea recently.

Would both ideas (Pick squad & warm up subs) improve realism - Yes

Would both ideas end up hated by a large portion of the community - Probably

 

IMO its extra work for very little benefit.

In terms of picking a squad you are duplicating picking the team, kinda similar to National squads.  I see it being repetitive & annoying where most of the time users would just select their full first team squad anyway.  Maybe it could be introduced for matches over a certain distance away, or maybe just for those in a foreign country would be easier.  You could maybe also introduce travelling as well to link it to so the the players spent a day travelling rather than on the training pitch (Give them the TRL tag on that day).  A player not being picked in a squad could certainly be a conversation starter while for the younger players it could give them a confidence boost.

Warming the subs up whilst a good idea on paper I just don't see it working.  I play matches on comprehensive highlights but I suspect I'm in the minority with a higher % of users tending towards key highlights/commentary and then played at a quicker than default speed.  Even on comprehensive highlights the amount of clicking involved to tell players to go warmup during a match would quickly frustrate me and I suspect it would border on making the game unplayable for those playing on a quicker setting.

 

[borivoje213]

Yeah I don't like the idea of warming players up during the game at all.  I think it's fair to say the game takes on that practicality to make up for the fact it's laborious and as Cougar said, doesn't fit with how most people would play a match anyway.

That aside, I'm slowly coming around to the idea of declaring a squad in advance of fixtures provided it isn't too labour intensive and serves some purpose.

Such as consideration of players fitness and injury free status, potential impact on player morale.  

Perhaps would be nice just to apply it to European fixtures to begin with?

[Maaka]

29 minutes ago, borivoje213 said:

Yeah I don't like the idea of warming players up during the game at all.  I think it's fair to say the game takes on that practicality to make up for the fact it's laborious and as Cougar said, doesn't fit with how most people would play a match anyway.

That aside, I'm slowly coming around to the idea of declaring a squad in advance of fixtures provided it isn't too labour intensive and serves some purpose.

Such as consideration of players fitness and injury free status, potential impact on player morale.  

Perhaps would be nice just to apply it to European fixtures to begin with?

Attaboy 

Was also thinking in the lines of having them for "travelling matches" at first, to slowly implement it.

[gunner86]

It may also make the whole "Available for Reserves" that little bit easier, not in squad for senior match = available for reserves

And vice versa, the amount of times I've earmarked an end of season dead-rubber to blood some promising youngsters only to get to the match day and find they have already played today...

[Maaka]

12 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

It may also make the whole "Available for Reserves" that little bit easier, not in squad for senior match = available for reserves

And vice versa, the amount of times I've earmarked an end of season dead-rubber to blood some promising youngsters only to get to the match day and find they have already played today...

[borivoje213]

19 hours ago, gunner86 said:

It may also make the whole "Available for Reserves" that little bit easier, not in squad for senior match = available for reserves

Yeah I like that a lot, I'm always trawling my squad to reset who's available for the next reserve game. Would take away a fair bit of hassle.

[forameuss]

If this was brought in and it was optional, fair enough.  I would have absolutely no interest in sending players out to warm up during a match, and don't see what's so wrong with how it works now.  But, like I say, if it's optional and has no real impact if you don't, fair enough.  If you make it compulsory, and you get penalised for not doing so, then I would absolutely resent that.

Same goes for naming a squad 2 days early, although I'd be harsher on that.  I would completely and totally resent having to name a team twice essentially, just so three people that are interested in that sort of thing think it's realistic.

[borivoje213]

On 28/09/2016 at 18:02, forameuss said:

If this was brought in and it was optional, fair enough.  I would have absolutely no interest in sending players out to warm up during a match, and don't see what's so wrong with how it works now.  But, like I say, if it's optional and has no real impact if you don't, fair enough.  If you make it compulsory, and you get penalised for not doing so, then I would absolutely resent that.

Same goes for naming a squad 2 days early, although I'd be harsher on that.  I would completely and totally resent having to name a team twice essentially, just so three people that are interested in that sort of thing think it's realistic.

I can't imagine it being a case of having to reselect the squad you take every single time - just tweak from previous selection, and if it automatically applies available players to your reserves as a consequence then that would save time. 

[stevomcdevo]

On 26/09/2016 at 13:58, gunner86 said:

It may also make the whole "Available for Reserves" that little bit easier, not in squad for senior match = available for reserves

And vice versa, the amount of times I've earmarked an end of season dead-rubber to blood some promising youngsters only to get to the match day and find they have already played today...

I hate that!

[noikeee]

On 28/09/2016 at 17:02, forameuss said:

If this was brought in and it was optional, fair enough.  I would have absolutely no interest in sending players out to warm up during a match, and don't see what's so wrong with how it works now.  But, like I say, if it's optional and has no real impact if you don't, fair enough.  If you make it compulsory, and you get penalised for not doing so, then I would absolutely resent that.

Same goes for naming a squad 2 days early, although I'd be harsher on that.  I would completely and totally resent having to name a team twice essentially, just so three people that are interested in that sort of thing think it's realistic.

I agree, this sounds like a massive pain, and I don't want to ever be forced to do neither the warmups or naming a squad.

It's essentially one of the main reasons why international management is so boring and people don't like it in FM (besides the fact you get very few matches to play and have to holiday all the time) - every time you've got a match you've got to pick a squad and then pick a 11 again. It's twice the work, repetitive and boring.

We already have something very similar to this, when you've got to name a squad for a tour or a training camp or whatever it is now. Does it add anything to the game? Personally, no, I find it a nuisance with zero upside.

[Maaka]

Each to his (her) own taste, I guess. I actually think that naming squads for internationals, or for tours/camps for club sides, is quite "fun". It requires a little planning, but I don't find it a nuisance or anything at all, only adding to the realism for me.

Warming up subs is a bit harder, as it's quite dependent on what speed settings one uses. If it could be enabled for those who watches the matches in full, at normal speed, but as of today for highlights/higher speeds, then that would be closer to a fit.

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, noikeee said:

I agree, this sounds like a massive pain, and I don't want to ever be forced to do neither the warmups or naming a squad.

It's essentially one of the main reasons why international management is so boring and people don't like it in FM (besides the fact you get very few matches to play and have to holiday all the time) - every time you've got a match you've got to pick a squad and then pick a 11 again. It's twice the work, repetitive and boring.

We already have something very similar to this, when you've got to name a squad for a tour or a training camp or whatever it is now. Does it add anything to the game? Personally, no, I find it a nuisance with zero upside.

Au contraire, I've really been enjoying the international side this version, and have spent most of my time doing that.  I also wouldn't equate the two things.  The original idea is talking about naming squads to travel to away games.  Say you're playing as a top EPL side, you're going to have, say, 25 away games a season.  25 times you're being asked to name a squad to travel.  That's tedious.

Now international management, you're asked to name a squad around 5 times a year.  That's not tedious, that's just how it is.  Naming squads is a crucial part of international management, because you have to draw your players from a number of sources.  At a club level it's essentially pointless from a gameplay perspective.  You've already picked your squad for the competition, or at the highest level, you've bought players and picked your squad that way.  There's no need to add an extra layer.  Not the same as international squads though.

[noikeee]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

Au contraire, I've really been enjoying the international side this version, and have spent most of my time doing that.  I also wouldn't equate the two things.  The original idea is talking about naming squads to travel to away games.  Say you're playing as a top EPL side, you're going to have, say, 25 away games a season.  25 times you're being asked to name a squad to travel.  That's tedious.

Now international management, you're asked to name a squad around 5 times a year.  That's not tedious, that's just how it is.  Naming squads is a crucial part of international management, because you have to draw your players from a number of sources.  At a club level it's essentially pointless from a gameplay perspective.  You've already picked your squad for the competition, or at the highest level, you've bought players and picked your squad that way.  There's no need to add an extra layer.  Not the same as international squads though.

Okay it's not the exact same thing, as you say it's an integral part of international management that can't be taken out, but personally I find it tedious enough to name those 5 or 6 squads per year (specially when you're trying to manage club and country at the same time in a long-term career), which is why I can't imagine having to replicate that for every single club match.

[dspeters]

The idea of sending subs out to warm up during a match is something I mentioned some years ago, back when we still had the Wishlist thread: 

 

Quote

 

This might have already been suggested, but I would like the option to send substitute players out to warm up during a match. This could have some effect on the match:

- If the player is substituted without any (of with a very short) warming up he could have a higher risk of getting injured. In case you wish to substitute immediately (e.g. as a result of an injury or red card), you should be willing to take that risk.

- It could be a boost for players on the pitch, especially if they see a competitor for the same position warming up.

- Sending players out to warm up on a regular basis but not giving them any time on the pitch could have an effect on their morale.

- Players with very low morale could sometimes refuse warming up, for which you could fine them.

 

 

I see the issues regarding playing the games on a quicker or less comprehensive setting, but I'm sure this feature can be translated into someting which could work in those situations as well (although I don't have a solution for this at the moment).

Picking a match squad does add to realism, doucong gives some greate examples of how this could be implemented. Furthermore you could have the opportunity to test a player of whom the fitness level is doubtful on match day and replace him with a different player if necessary. 

[Neil Brock]

Reviewed so locked.