Tactics!! No one seems to want more?????

[theboss332]

I would prefer much more understanding and current tactic options working better before they started adding new things.

[peter-evo]

Ehm, its a game. If it's not aiming to be fun, then there's something seriously wrong.

I meant the game isn't just fun straight away. The fun comes from doing well!

[Scott_90]

i just make my own anyway..

[someguy]

i just make my own anyway..

So do most people. We're talking, or I am, about adding a few more options or maybe changing/improving the current layout.

[Hamenaglar]

I just want 'cut' in option.

[PjW_JJJ]

The “tactics” are what makes fm8 unplayable for me and fm7 barely tolerable.

I’d like a game where I can intuitively set up a sensible real-life tactic and my supposed professionals on the pitch are at least vaguely able to operate it.

I don’t want to waste my life considering literarily billions of slider combinations which, if you believe anything you read on T&TF, can be counterproductive with each other if you want certain things to happen.

I don’t want an AI which has the option of keepers distributing to defenders; full backs tracking back, receiving the ball and building an attack, when this is impossible for the human player (and I have read the suggested solutions, none of which work). I don’t want 40% of my goals conceded to be down to a keeper distribution flaw than ONLY effects the human player.

I don’t want an AI that has a mysterious ability to get it’s free kick takers to repeatedly bounce their shots off the wall and into the net, when I, as the human player who’s forked out £30 don’t have this option. I don’t want to see my free kicks behave as in real life, while I concede another 40% of my goals through magical wall deflections.

I don’t want an AI that affords high reputation teams and players magical powers when the game is played in detail against the human player to ensure “realism” when playing the big four.

I don’t want an AI that has a 4-2-4 cheat tactic at it’s disposal that can score the required amount of goals it needs in the time it takes for your counter 4-2-4 AI cheat tactic to take effect.

I don’t want an AI that can implement it’s tactics at any time, while the ball is in mid-flight or mid-pass, when the human player has to wait up to 12 minutes and watch the ball going repeatedly out of play in the process.

I want a game where I can study the opposition pre-match day, design a tactic for the strengths of my team and to counter theirs, like I could as a real-life manager, without working out what the bl##dy hell various computer dweeb slider combinations might be needed to even faintly achieve this. When the sliders are deliberately not just counter intuitive but downright misleading, when the AI has these “cheats” (whether intentionally programmed in or not, they are effectively cheats) at it’s disposal.

[someguy]

I like to think that the game is sophisicated enough to make what you would do in real life work in the game. Theres a difference between what are good football tactics and what are good computer game tactics. Certain things that, because of the actual genitics of the match engine, because of all the the boring technical stuff that actually makes the game work, cheat the AI.

Its like when people ask what is a good formation? well what is a good formation in real life football. Football fans will have their ideas about tactics and formations etc because they like football, not because they are computer programmers who have a knowledge of how all those 0's and 1's play out and have worked out a way to exploit this.

This is how I see it anyway.

[jayahr]

My only big concern there is if the arrows will be gone and wibble/wobble does not come back ... will we actually see a decrease in tactical options?

[chopper99]

Personally I think that there have not been many people asking about tactical changes as many people like the tactics as they are. I think that once the arrows are changed then the main tactical problems will be gone.

The fact is that most things that people want to happen can already be done using the current tactical options. The example of having a striker who drops deeper is a good one. This can already be done quite easily with the current tactical system.

The actual problem with the current tactical system is that many people do not know how to use it. this is what needs to be improved in the next game imo, hopefully through the use of more useful staff who can help give you an indication of these things.

[Guest Vilosophe]

Personally I think that there have not been many people asking about tactical changes as many people like the tactics as they are. I think that once the arrows are changed then the main tactical problems will be gone.

The fact is that most things that people want to happen can already be done using the current tactical options. The example of having a striker who drops deeper is a good one. This can already be done quite easily with the current tactical system.

The actual problem with the current tactical system is that many people do not know how to use it. this is what needs to be improved in the next game imo, hopefully through the use of more useful staff who can help give you an indication of these things.

So:

1) How can I say to my MR (but no to my ML) to make a movement to centre ?

2) How can I say to my ST to come towards the ball and make a first touch to my MR/ML who cut inside ?

3) How can I say to supply my strong ST to head and my other ST to feet ?

4) How can I say to my DR pass to MR and DL to ML ( or DR to ML and DL to MR) ?

5) How can I say to my ST to move widen or to stay always in the centre ?

and so on...

[someguy]

So:

1) How can I say to my MR (but no to my ML) to make a movement to centre ?

2) How can I say to my ST to come towards the ball and make a first touch to my MR/ML who cut inside ?

3) How can I say to supply my strong ST to head and my other ST to feet ?

4) How can I say to my DR pass to MR and DL to ML ( or DR to ML and DL to MR) ?

5) How can I say to my ST to move widen or to stay always in the centre ?

and so on...

I'm all for adding/changing some things but I think you are asking a bit much with some of those. Number 4 though, I agree with. Its similar to what I have said previously above. People will say; well you set your DR to short passing, your MR to playmaker blah blah etc etc. NO!!!

The fact is this does not really work and is to complicated. Again, all it requires is a 'look to feed' option/checkbox. It would make it a lot clearer and easier. I'm sure it could be implemented, considering playmaker and target men checkboxs exist. Lastly, most importantly, this is something that is used in real life and would add a lot to the game..

[wwfan]

So:

1) How can I say to my MR (but no to my ML) to make a movement to centre ?

2) How can I say to my ST to come towards the ball and make a first touch to my MR/ML who cut inside ?

3) How can I say to supply my strong ST to head and my other ST to feet ?

4) How can I say to my DR pass to MR and DL to ML ( or DR to ML and DL to MR) ?

5) How can I say to my ST to move widen or to stay always in the centre ?

and so on...

1: Player Type: Playing a left footer on both wings will naturally have them moving in that manner. However, actual instructions to make those runs have always been missing (NB: this is not what arrows do)

2: Lowish mentality for the ST to have him drop deep, short passing to force the lay-off pass, focus passing down flanks to aim for the wingers, a narrow formation to get them in position to pick up the pass and opposing footed wingers on each wing to get them to cut inside

3: Short passing system to supply one ST to feet plus a TM to head supply instruction for the other

4: Focus passing down flanks to make the pass to the winger the first one FBs look for, maximum mixed FWRs for the wingers so they don't get too far ahead of play for the pass, plus a direct enough pass setting for the FB for the pass always to be on. For the cross-field pass, there is no way of doing it for both FBs, but you can have the DL looking for the MR by increasing his passing length and focus passing down right. Be aware, this is a pretty illogical instruction (cross-field balls from deep are very risky) and won't often happen

5: Drift wide would require a free role, a fair amount of CF and a wide formation. Stay central would require the opposite.

[someguy]

1: Player Type: Playing a left footer on both wings will naturally have them moving in that manner. However, actual instructions to make those runs have always been missing (NB: this is not what arrows do)

2: Lowish mentality for the ST to have him drop deep, short passing to force the lay-off pass, focus passing down flanks to aim for the wingers, a narrow formation to get them in position to pick up the pass and opposing footed wingers on each wing to get them to cut inside

3: Short passing system to supply one ST to feet plus a TM to head supply instruction for the other

4: Focus passing down flanks to make the pass to the winger the first one FBs look for, maximum mixed FWRs for the wingers so they don't get too far ahead of play for the pass, plus a direct enough pass setting for the FB for the pass always to be on. For the cross-field pass, there is no way of doing it for both FBs, but you can have the DL looking for the MR by increasing his passing length and focus passing down right. Be aware, this is a pretty illogical instruction (cross-field balls from deep are very risky) and won't often happen

5: Drift wide would require a free role, a fair amount of CF and a wide formation. Stay central would require the opposite.

I know we seem to have this debate alot but, although your logic is right, some of these points are not do-able. If that is the correct way to achieve it, its pretty ridiculous

[wwfan]

The problem with the slider system is also its strength. It is highly ambiguous at first glance, which makes it frustrating. However, once you begin to see how things interact and look at a tactic holistically, you can mimic nearly every real world tactical plan. It is then you begin to really appreciate the genius of the slider system.

The complexity of my instructions highlights the key problem people have with tactics. They want to be able to tell a player to do something and simply have him do it. However, that is not enough in itself, just as it wouldn't be in real life. Telling your ST to drop off and play short passes to the wingers is not going to work unless you make sure your wingers are in the right position to pick up said passes. You have to consider how to support your key instructions with other team and individual instructions for required players.

And all of the above will work.

[someguy]

4: Focus passing down flanks to make the pass to the winger the first one FBs look for, maximum mixed FWRs for the wingers so they don't get too far ahead of play for the pass, plus a direct enough pass setting for the FB for the pass always to be on. For the cross-field pass, there is no way of doing it for both FBs, but you can have the DL looking for the MR by increasing his passing length and focus passing down right. Be aware, this is a pretty illogical instruction (cross-field balls from deep are very risky) and won't often happen

Those settings for that particular thing, instructing a player to look for another, are to vague. There needs to be a specific option. Like I said, logicly that does make sense but its to much of a comprimise between team and individual. Apart from this, I doubt it actually works very well. There is a limit to what you can instruct, sure, but this example is something that should be in the game and at the moment its not.

[wwfan]

I'll try to make it clearer why that is problematic.

One tactic for FM08 that has been quite popular has FB settings that horribly contradict with team settings. The whole of the wingless midfield are on FWRs often. The FB is on short-passing, no FWRs, run with ball and cross from byline. His passing options are limited to a short pass inside to the DC because, as soon as he gets the ball the whole midfield run away from him. He either looks for the short pass, finds there isn't one on, dawdles and gets dispossessed by the opposition or launches himself down the flank in order to get across in from the byline, which means a 70 yard dribble. This absolutely knackers him and by the 70 min mark he will be making horrible mistakes. People then complain that, becasue the AI hammers them down the flanks in the last 20 mins, it is another example of the 'AI Cheat' mechanism.

If you add the 'feed player' option to his instructions, you need to think about what would happen. Will that instruction override his other passing instruction (of short) so he always hits direct balls to the AMC for example? Or will they work in tandem, so the instruction 'feed AMC' becomes totally useless and causes much user frustration, as the short pass to a player high up the pitch is a contradiction? If it is the former, then by setting 'feed player' options across the team, you are creating passing patterns that are going to warp the whole match experience and harm the integrity of the AI. You are also easily and unrealistically countering holistically poor tactical instructions by simply highlighting a player you want people to pass to, without having to worry about what type of pass he should be looking at making. If the latter, then you will generate huge user confusion when the player isn't doing what they want. Players with no long shots taking long shots because they have run out of passing options already does that. Imagine how the user base would respond when a player instructed to pass to the AMC never did so because other settings didn't allow it.

Passing patterns are a team-wide requirement that can be shifted towards certain players by altering pass focus, playmaker and target man instructions. Targetting specific players every other player can pass to simply isn't realistic and will harm the ME. Users will design totally ridiculus passing patterns (as with the crazy arrows) in order to exploit the ME and the match would turn into a farce.

[someguy]

I'll try to make it clearer why that is problematic.

One tactic for FM08 that has been quite popular has FB settings that horribly contradict with team settings. The whole of the wingless midfield are on FWRs often. The FB is on short-passing, no FWRs, run with ball and cross from byline. His passing options are limited to a short pass inside to the DC because, as soon as he gets the ball the whole midfield run away from him. He either looks for the short pass, finds there isn't one on, dawdles and gets dispossessed by the opposition or launches himself down the flank in order to get across in from the byline, which means a 70 yard dribble. This absolutely knackers him and by the 70 min mark he will be making horrible mistakes. People then complain that, becasue the AI hammers them down the flanks in the last 20 mins, it is another example of the 'AI Cheat' mechanism.

If you add the 'feed player' option to his instructions, you need to think about what would happen. Will that instruction override his other passing instruction (of short) so he always hits direct balls to the AMC for example? Or will they work in tandem, so the instruction 'feed AMC' becomes totally useless and causes much user frustration, as the short pass to a player high up the pitch is a contradiction? If it is the former, then by setting 'feed player' options across the team, you are creating passing patterns that are going to warp the whole match experience and harm the integrity of the AI. You are also easily and unrealistically countering holistically poor tactical instructions by simply highlighting a player you want people to pass to, without having to worry about what type of pass he should be looking at making. If the latter, then you will generate huge user confusion when the player isn't doing what they want. Players with no long shots taking long shots because they have run out of passing options already does that. Imagine how the user base would respond when a player instructed to pass to the AMC never did so because other settings didn't allow it.

Passing patterns are a team-wide requirement that can be shifted towards certain players by altering pass focus, playmaker and target man instructions. Targetting specific players every other player can pass to simply isn't realistic and will harm the ME. Users will design totally ridiculus passing patterns (as with the crazy arrows) in order to exploit the ME and the match would turn into a farce.

The argument with this is, 1, will it cause such a problem with the match engine? In theory, maybe, but that is not a certainty. 2, Its been proven that focus passing down the right, for example, does not mean that every pass from every player is going to be down the right. The match engine is intelligent to reflect this so that suggests it would cope with a specific feed option.

Saying that, the maximum you could have is telling 11 players to pass specifly and I suppose this could create problems. Although in real life a manager would not ask this, for the same reasons. Maybe limiting this option to a few players is the answer? Either way, reflecting what is basically a word in the ear of one player to encourage something specific is still too compliacted. Its a shame.

[Josh_lee]

I would like more options in the tactics area....

it seems don't have any major change in tactics for ages

[MSCCG]

Isn't the tactics in FM09 the same is in FM live? So we could just ask the testers or whatever what changes there are...

[wwfan]

The argument with this is, 1, will it cause such a problem with the match engine? In theory, maybe, but that is not a certainty. 2, Its been proven that focus passing down the right, for example, does not mean that every pass from every player is going to be down the right. The match engine is intelligent to reflect this so that suggests it would cope with a specific feed option.

Saying that, the maximum you could have is telling 11 players to pass specifly and I suppose this could create problems. Although in real life a manager would not ask this, for the same reasons. Maybe limiting this option to a few players is the answer? Either way, reflecting what is basically a word in the ear of one player to encourage something specific is still too compliacted. Its a shame.

1: It almost certainly would. The whole point of removing arrows was to eliminate absolutely unrealistic instructions from working. Arrows could be used in so many ways the ME wasn't designed to cope with it that aiming to counter the sheer number of possibilities was an impossible task. Having the whole team being instructed to make specific passes, although possibly less exploitative, would generate the same scenario.

2: It could cope with a specific feed option, but you have the issue of contradiction again. Should it work in tandem with passing? If so, one must complement the other. Although potentially an 'easy' option, it will end in adding to user confusion if it fails. However, with good AssMan feedback (i.e you have told player x to look for player y, but also told him to make short passes. Player y is always too far away to receive short passes) then it might work.

[chopper99]

The other problem is, if you simplify the tactics so that you simply have to tick a box to get a player to do exactly what you want then what's the point? This is not how things work in real life, a manager will never tell one player to always look to pass to another specific player, that would be very counter-productive. The manager will give direction and tell his team to look to play the ball to the big strikers head, for example. But it will not be as precise as telling each player exactly who he wants them to pass the ball to, this would be a disaster.

With the current tactical system you can recreate almost any tactical instruction that you want. Of course it's not perfect and you can't do absolutely everything you want to do, but this is a game and cannot ever be perfect. Adding checkboxes for everything will simplify things too much and imo cause more problems than it solves.

What we actually need is more transparency in the current tactical system to allow people to learn how to use it to create the scenarios listed earlier.

[someguy]

Does anyone have a link to FM live tactics explained?

[PjW_JJJ]

The problem with the slider system is also its strength. It is highly ambiguous at first glance, which makes it frustrating. However, once you begin to see how things interact and look at a tactic holistically, you can mimic nearly every real world tactical plan. It is then you begin to really appreciate the genius of the slider system.

Have you ever thought about releasing some sort of training aid? Like an interactive language learing CD or something??? Posting videos somewhere?

Descriptions in the T&TF are all very nice, but it would be handy so see some footage and have someone who knows what's going on talking you through things like:

This is what you look for to decide on width, d-line etc.

This is what to look for to fathom why your being opened up.

This is how you recreate this or that tactical set up.

Etc

[chopper99]

Have you ever thought about releasing some sort of training aid? Like an interactive language learing CD or something??? Posting videos somewhere?

Descriptions in the T&TF are all very nice, but it would be handy so see some footage and have someone who knows what's going on talking you through things like:

This is what you look for to decide on width, d-line etc.

This is what to look for to fathom why your being opened up.

This is how you recreate this or that tactical set up.

Etc

Considering how much stick people generally get when they try and help people with the game I can see no incentive for anyone to take the time to do anything like this.

All the information needed is written in the tactics forum for the people who want to read it. If people can't find what they need then they can post a topic about and they'll either be directed to the info they need, or someone will help them out.

[wwfan]

I'd love to be able to do all that, but the time it would take is prohibitive. The TT&F thread will be supported by a podcast for FM09 if that helps

[Neji]

I'd love to be able to do all that, but the time it would take is prohibitive. The TT&F thread will be supported by a podcast for FM09 if that helps

I like the sound of that

[chopper99]

I'd love to be able to do all that, but the time it would take is prohibitive. The TT&F thread will be supported by a podcast for FM09 if that helps

That sounds very promising

[someguy]

I can understand the arrow change thingy and it sunds logical.

But has there been any other tactic changes/additions?

[someguy]

So tommorow the demo is out and all will be revealed.

just wondering if anything has been added to the tactics?

[Millie]

Based on FML - the only change is the removal of arrows. At least, as far as the interface goes.

I'd love to be able to do all that, but the time it would take is prohibitive. The TT&F thread will be supported by a podcast for FM09 if that helps

Yeah, because we always stay on topic whenever we record anything...

[someguy]

F**k me, looking back what a debate this was. I still think that the tactics of the new game could have been improved or refreshed. Without slating the current options, because they are pretty decent, a few additions or even a revamp of the current layout would be good. If you can turn 2d into 3d you can improve this area of the game.

[someguy]

If I can give an example; Watching arsenal, there is something that they often do with their play. It may be a small thing but they definitely do it. When they are attacking and reach the final third of the field, they're in possession in a fairly central position, a player nearly always makes a run out wide. This does two things. It gives Arsenal an option to pass into a dangerous area and it makes the defenders have to think about picking the wide player up thus creating space for the player in possession.

It seems that this is really practiced. The players are aware of this tactic and do it constantly. Its more like an absolute instruction to a player in such a position to make this run more than just a rather vague instruction to encourage players to get forward, like we have at the moment.

I use Arsenal as an example because if ever there was a team that play a certain way, sometimes stubbornly and maybe not for their own success, then Arsenal are it. This highlights how much a manager, training techniques and types of players can create a very specific style of play.

The point is this doesn't seem to be possible in FM. To really put your mark on how you want your team to play. Of course there is only so much you can do and sometimes it is solely down to the players to perform but there are certain things that can be encouraged. Rather than just your basic attacking style but actual practiced moves and more specific links of play, dragging players out of position, playing in triangles and so on. It does happen!! It would be nice if this sort of thing could be implemented into the game to give more of a personalised feel of your team.

[Wakers]

You know what you see more and more in modern football?

Wibble Wobble

Man U 4-3-3 in attack, 4-2-3-1 when chasing possession.

Should be brought back into the game imo.