The Aranycsapat - Mimicking the Magic Magyars in Football Manager 2015

[felley]

We're in the twilight hours of FM15 and – like many of you – i've turned my hand towards what is essentially glorified mucking about, experimenting with real life tactics that may or may not prove quite difficult to recreate. On FM14 I tried (and failed) to create a WM more in the 20's/30's style made famous by Herbert Chapman amongst others, but I had lots of trouble trying to organise the defence with the wide back three of two Full Backs and a Centre Back. This time around, i'll be going for something a little further down the line in terms of the tactical arms race as I try to mimic the Hungarian side of the early 1950's – the Golden Team or “Aranycsapat” (it's important that I say “mimic” as certain compromises will probably be made given the out-dated formation that Hungary used).

THE TACTIC IN REAL LIFE

First things first, how did they play? Well you have to be fair and say that Hungary possessed three of the most talented forwards of the era in Puskás, Hidegkuti and Kocsis so they were probably always going to score plenty of goals. Where they perhaps differed from many other teams is the way in which they were set up, both formationally and philosophically. The WM was common at the time and although the defensive side of the game was gathering more importance, it was expected that most teams would field five forwards (or three forwards and two wingers). Hungary, under the stewardship of Gustav Sebes, innovated on this forward set up by withdrawing the centre forward (not an entirely new idea) and asking the wingers to come back and link up play with the midfield. Couple this with the split duties of the two half backs – one defensive minded, one supporting the forwards – and you almost have a 4-2-4. Philosophically, Sebes championed teamwork and combination play over individual flair, though one could argue that Hidegkuti and Puskás in particular had license to break from the set up in order to provide a moment of magic.

(This brief outline of Hungary's playing formation and style is informed by this article: http://spielverlagerung.de/2012/10/16/retroanalyse-england-vs-ungarn-36-22-11-1953/ [iN GERMAN] as well as the chapter: “The Hungarian Connection” in Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid)

As well as a textual overview of the Aranycsapat's style, it would be useful to see a visual representation of how they formed up on the field so I can get some good starting positions. Spielverlagerung.de were kind enough to create this tactics board for the seminal England-Hungary match from 1953:



So we can see straight off that the team is loosely organised into a front five and a back five, though closer inspection reveals that Lantos, Zakariás and Buzánsky are expected to drop into the defence alongside Lóránt to form a sort of back four when defending. Bozsik is the link man who advances into a supporting position behind the forwards whilst Hidegkuti drops off the front line looking for space from which he can dictate proceedings. The other four players are the ones expected to cause damage with their runs, with Kocsis at the peak, Czibor and Budai providing width and Puskás attacking the box from deep hoping to exploit space made by the others. It is quite an elegant setup and - with a bit of imagination – isn't too far removed from the sort of 4-4-2 used by teams in the 80's/90's, such as Milan and Man United.

THE TACTIC IN FM

So how do we translate this into FM? Well through several revisions and sticking to a few core principles I came up with the following:



(If you're interested, i'm playing with a Hungarian Second Division side called Balmazújváros)

The mentality is Attacking (i'm not sure any other mentality would be acceptable for the Magic Magyars!) and the team shape is Structured. I chose Structured due to the formation being naturally so staggered. The theory is that the three backs are concerned mainly with defending, the middle five with link play and the front two with attacking – as was the general outline of Hungary's setup. I understand that the Hungarians were championed for their positional fluidity up front, but I intend to achieve this via the staggered formation, the role allocation and the addition of Roam From Position for the Advanced Playmaker. The team instructions are relatively simple and are chosen in order to replicate Hunagry's possession oriented style. Shorter Passing, Work Ball Into Box and Play Out Of Defence are used to these ends. Changes in tempo and width may be added if necessary, but I feel that the mentality describes the Aranycsapat fairly thoroughly already.

ROLE ALLOCATION AND REASONING

The Goalkeeper – Gyula Grosics is remembered as one of the first Sweeper Keepers, adding an extra line of defence by rushing out to meet any player that breached the back line. Coupled with the Attacking mentality, it felt natural to choose the role of Sweeper Keeper, though I have kept the Defend duty in order to try and steer clear of risky punts upfield.

The Lóránt Role – After experimenting in the first few versions of the tactic with both a Sweeper and a centrally positioned Centre Back on Cover duty, I have settled for the off-centre Centre Back on a normal Defend duty. This allows space for the Half Back to drop in as well as forming a less staggered back-line – in previous versions, my defence was too easy to breach with big holes through the centre allowing forwards to be onside relatively close to goal.

The Full Backs – Though it could be argued that Lantos was asked to drop deeper against England (due to being positioned opposite the dribbling maestro Stanley Matthews), in general both full backs were expected to defend first and support the midfield much further into the teams advances. The Full Backs on Defend duty should give me what i'm looking for here.

The Zakariás Role – A role I have also experimented with in a deeper position as a Ball Playing Defender with a Stopper duty. The role didn't give me the sort of support that Zakariás would supply later in the move though and so the Half Back role was chosen instead. This makes more sense anyway as it was the actual name of Zakariás' position in real life and it should provide the correct sort of defensive cover as the player drops into the back line as well as pushing forward to provide a passing option as the move advances.

The Bozsik Role – Another role that would have been described as a Half Back at the time, Bozsik was much more likely to push up and support the move from behind the forwards, forming a double pivot with Hidegkuti yet dropping much deeper than the withdrawn forward. I have experimented with a Regista but I have settled on a Deep Lying Playmaker on Support duty for now as I felt the Regista roamed too much, compromising the defensive stability through the centre.

The Wide Men – Originally I had both wide men in the AM strata as Wingers (left side on Attack duty, right side on Support) but this was quickly realised to be a bit of a disaster as my Full Backs became isolated easily. In an effort to mimic the supporting play of Budai on the right, I have since dropped this position into the Midfield strata and assigned the role of Wide Midfielder on a Support duty. The Czibor role on the left will stay the same for now (Winger on Attack duty) as he was much more likely to break forward and link up with Puskás, though he may be asked to Roam From Position should he appear too static.

The Hidegkuti Role – Yet another role that I have experimented with previously before the current revision, both as a true forward dropping deep and as a CM advancing from a deeper starting point. Though much was made of his withdrawn nature at the time, Hidegkuti was essentially an attacking midfielder tasked with creating chances for his fellow forwards. An Advanced Playmaker on Support duty seems ideal as he stays in the hole behind the forwards and becomes a pivot in the final third, drawing the ball from his teammates in order to provide a spark in attack. I have given him license to roam aswell in the hope that the player will seek out the space from which to cause the most damage.

The Front Two – A relatively simple choice of partnership that has remained virtually constant through the several versions of the tactic before the current revision. Puskás was the more creative of the pair up front and looked to link up with Hidegkuti in both a passing and spatial sense, a Deep Lying Forward on Support duty fits him perfectly. Kocsis on the other hand was a classic striker, probing gaps in the defence and providing a presence in the box to finish off moves. I can look no further than an Advanced Forward on Attack duty for this role, giving us a focal point to our attack.

I should mention finally that the front five of the WM(S), AP(S), W(A), DLF(S) and AF(A) have been given the PI – Close Down More. This is to try and replicate the sort of pressing structure that Gustav Sebes introduced for Hungary, as he asked the forward players to apply pressure in order to contribute to the overall team ethic of hard work and attacking play.



FINAL WORDS AND PKM's

As I have mentioned a few times, the tactic posted above is the most recent of a few revisions I have made to the tactic in the last few days. I don't consider it to be complete, merely more stable than the first couple of versions I came up with. Therefore, over the coming days/weeks I will be sharing some analysis and the progress I make with this tactic as I attempt to balance the mimicry of the Aranycsapat with the reality of FM15. I will also be uploading PKM's so you guys can get involved too and provide your own analysis/suggestions. I hope this interests people as this Hungarian side really are something worth trying to recreate, even if it means compromising quite a lot in order to get it working!

[thizaum]

Felley, did you try it out? How did it go?

I didn't watch this Hungary team play, but of course I've heard of it.

Reading your post and looking at the tactic in real life, I came up with this: http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=8w8b

I'd imagine it with Control, push higher up, close down more, play out of defence, work ball into box, tighter marking for example. The close down more can work like you said (only on front 5) or more on the team and less on the back 5.

I know you didn't post this just for someone to post other formation. It's more of "discussing purposes".

Cheers.

[felley]

Hey Thizaum,

I'll be posting up the PKM of the first game of the season alongside some analysis shortly.

Thanks for your suggestions, I reckon there will be a few changes after what i've seen so far. The defence isn't as balanced as i'd like at the moment.

[felley]

FIRST LOOK AT THE MAGYARS - ARE THEY MAGIC?

The first outing with any tactic is always a bit shaky as you discover what works and what doesn't in practice. With the shape I have chosen to replicate the Hungary team of the early 1950's, I was definitely going to encounter problems due to it's unorthodox nature. The PKM for this first game can be downloaded here:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/bz6eak

My first port of call is to check out the defensive shape to see whether my team is defending in an acceptable way and whether or not any mistakes are structural or individual.



Mihalecz is the ball carrier in this image as my back eight players organise themselves into a fairly sensible shape that would allow them to deal with any issues that could arise. The Advanced Playmaker drops back to help too and the Wide Midfielder tracks his man well.



After some successful defending, we turnover possession but as the ball reaches Mihalecz for the second time our shape looks a bit more bizarre and causes some concern. Firstly, the Advanced Playmaker drops very deep (either due to roaming or closing down settings - or both) and gets in the way of the Deep Lying Playmaker. The Half Back has vacated his sitting position to close down, leaving the large gap indicated by the yellow oval. This wouldn't be a massive problem if the DLP were able to cover for him, but i'm thinking already that the balance is off.



In this image the team is transitioning from defence to attack with the Centre Back, Gal carrying the ball. The Half Back and DLP have successfully swapped places in the last bit of play and i'm not too bothered about this as they are covering each other well. The Advanced Playmaker causes problems again though by dropping into the DLP's area rather than picking up space on the right side indicated by the yellow oval.



Mihalecz has the ball again for the opposition as the DLP holds shape pretty well. Once again however, the Advanced Playmaker muddies the water by dropping in and taking over the marking duties of the Wide Midfielder. If he were somewhere to the left of the DLP, this would be much better as we'd have better pitch coverage, a better shape and more options to counter.



This is quite concerning because of the nature of the mix-up that is happening at the heart of the defence. The Full Backs hold position well, but the middle becomes very crowded with the Advanced Playmaker dropping into the right side (again!) and both the Centre Back and Half Back stepping out in spite of the decent positioning of the DLP. It should be noted also that the Winger is always greatly advanced and i'm not sure if this serves us too well considering we already have two forwards to aim for in a quick counter-attack, as well as a large gap on our left side.



The Half Back has stepped out to close down yet again but the DLP is not able to cover his aggression. The Half Back causes confusion with the FB and allows the opposition forward to stray into a very dangerous - and wholly onside – position. Mogyorósi plays a delicious ball in order to exploit this gap but we are caught fortunate as it is still some way from goal and our Centre Back manages to recover with a slightly dangerous foul.

So all-in-all the defence is looking a bit shaky and could do with a bit of work. The key points I wish to address are:

1) The Advanced Playmaker is closing down erratically and leaves us with a hole on the left side of our shape. For now I imagine I will simply remove the closing down instruction.

2) The Half Back is a little too aggressive in his closing down, maybe a PI would solve this.

3) The Centre Back could maybe be shifted centrally given the presence of two holding players. This would also help to cover for the Half Back's aggression.

4) The Winger is positioned very high and tracks back rarely. Moving him back to the Midfield strata would encourage more tracking back but still give him impetus to get forward.

As for the attack, I was largely pleased with the movement and the way in which the forwards occupied the defense/defensive midfielders. There were a couple of points I wished to deal with though and they are mainly concerning our friend again; the Advanced Playmaker.



We are in attacking transition here as the Winger, Chonka picks up the ball and dribbles it into the opposition half. Slowing down due to heavy marking, he quickly runs down a blind alley with nobody nearby to pass to. This situation could have been improved massively should the Advanced Playmaker be somewhere within the red pentagon (which represents the five passing options he should have if on the ball). As in the previous screenshots, he is caught in a deeper position closing down and fails to get involved quick enough. I noticed this time and time again as we transitioned and he wasn't available.



Here we can see another example of the Advanced Playmaker failing to keep up with play – indeed, the DLP is further forward and has taken on the mantle of supplying a key pass to the Advanced Forward. Should the Advanced Playmaker be further forward, our attack would be transformed giving multiple angles for through-balls and build up play around the box. Another thing worth noting is that the Wide Midfielder is very cautious in getting forward when he would have a chance to overload the defence should he come round the back of the opposition full back here. Finally, we see another example of the large gap at the rear of the formation with the Centre Back shifting over to the right and the Half Back stepping up to support the midfield.

So the attack doesn't look too dysfunctional, only a few things need to be sorted out really:

1)The Advanced Playmaker needs to stick to his position behind the forwards, I will be removing the roaming and closing down instructions in a bid to keep him in the right area.

2)The Wide Midfielder could do with having a little more license to get forward. I will try the PI “Get Further Forward” in the hope that it helps this.

[RTHerringbone]

Posts like these are the epitome of what we want people to bring to the forum. It's a great start to the thread with the analysis of the first game really doing a great job I look forward to seeing this one develop. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

[legskeattch]

Fantastic Post!

[felley]

Thank you both for the kind words! I'll be continuing my analysis this evening so I hope to get another post together.

Just to summarise, here are the changes I have made to the system after the first analysis:

• Removed Roam From Position and Close Down More from the Advanced Playmaker's Player Instructions.
  
• Added Close Down Less to the Half Back's Player Instructions.
  
• Added Get Further Forward to the Wide Midfielder's Player Instructions.
  
• Moved the Centre Back from the right-central postion to the central position.
  
• Moved the Winger back into the Midfield strata.
  

[Vizzini]

Have you thought about moving the FB-D centrally to form a back-three? They will still split wide when in possession, while at the same time provide a more solid central structure in defence. I was thinking about this since you moved the Winger back into the Midfield strata. WM-S should provide enough defensive cover on the right flank, and you have the halfback on the side of the Winger, which will provide defensive cover on the left flank.

[felley]

Have you thought about moving the FB-D centrally to form a back-three? They will still split wide when in possession, while at the same time provide a more solid central structure in defence. I was thinking about this since you moved the Winger back into the Midfield strata. WM-S should provide enough defensive cover on the right flank, and you have the halfback on the side of the Winger, which will provide defensive cover on the left flank.

It's something I have definitely considered, but I feel this would be straying too far from the actual formation at this point. Another problem with using three Centre Backs would be that they would retreat into a close back three when in the defensive phase meaning the flanks could be left open or the wide men may be forced into doing more defending than necessary. If I can't get stability using the Full Backs, then it might be what I end up trying but for now i'm happy with the spatial coverage at the back and how the Structured team shape gives me a sort of zonal marking structure.

I'm actually currently preparing the analysis of the most recent game after the above changes and my initial thoughts are that the Centre Back position (right, left or centre) interacts rather strangely with the DM strata players. When there is a player directly ahead of him, he appears to be more cautious than when playing central behind two DM's. His rushing out is leaving us wide open in the middle and i'm rather thinking that my asymmetrical lineup was better. More soon...

[eusebio1]

Fantastic post and thank you for the in-depth match analysis - very interesting.

[felley]

A SECOND LOOK AT THE MAGYARS - ARE THEY MAGIC YET?

After implementing the changes outlined a few posts above, I played the next game in order to see if the tactic was improved by the tweaks. As in the first analysis, i'll provide the PKM for anyone who is willing to have a look themselves and make suggestions.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/ehtfmj

This time, the first thing I notice is how the attacking play is given an extra dimension by the tweaks, notably the removal of the roaming and closing down from the Advanced Playmaker.



Here we see the exact sort of forward play that Hungary were famous for. The Advanced Playmaker is positioned behind the two forwards lurking menacingly, whereas each of the defenders is occupied by an attacker either running at them or dragging them out of position. The DLP, Belényesi combines well with the Advanced Playmaker and finds a great through-ball to release the Advanced Forward. The pass is intercepted briefly but an opportunity is created and the Advanced Forward scores.



I have included this screenshot as it is a near perfect positional representation of how the Aranycsapat appeared on the pitch – forming a sort of MM formation with the withdrawn forward (Sigér, the Advanced Playmaker) dropping behind the frontline and connecting the two banks of players. It pleases me that I have managed to get things looking so balanced, but the defence is still looking a little shaky...



Here we see the first of many problems I am encountering at the heart of my defence. The Centre Back is caught moving out of the back line, whilst the Half Back is closing down the ball carrier, Bíró. I'm not sure who is more at fault here, but I have highlighted in red where I would like the two players to be. It seems that either way, we would be in trouble here as the clever movement of the opposition overloads the defence centrally. Bíró plays the through-ball to the forward but fortunately the chance comes to nothing.



Here we see the slightly kinked and unorthodox two banks of four that form our defensive shape. Délczeg has just trapped the ball and actually ends up closer to the Full Back, but with my Centre Back rushing out to address the threat a hole is left at the back and my Half Back is nowhere near dealing with it. Maybe a marking instruction would bring him closer to the man he should be picking up.



Here we see the problem with having the Centre Back positioned centrally. We leave large channels either side of him, the Defensive Midfielders are too central/occupied to cover the space and the Full Backs are too wide. I suspect we could minimise this risk by asking the Full Backs to sit narrower, but would still need to work on the interaction between the three central players. Délczeg plays the obvious through-ball to the forward but the chance is spurned - luckily for us.



This is defnitely a one-off absolute chaotic moment for the defence during this game, but it really is a disaster. We are caught out through a quick horizontal transition, leaving the DLP and Half Back on the same side. The Centre Back rushes out to deal with the threat, but both the DLP and Half Back fail to spot either the gaping hole, or the runners that are about to exploit it! Délczeg actually chooses the safest of the three options he has, and it proves to be the wrong one as the wide player he slips through passes across to a forward, who spurns the chance. If he'd curled in a more ambitious pass to one of the more central players, i'm not sure we would've been as lucky.

Everything considered, the tactic looks pretty good as a faithful replication of the Aranycsapat, but the defence could be our undoing. Incidentally, the Magic Magyars weren't famed for their defesive play either, but i'd rather make something stable than continue to run such high risks at the back!

The key points to consider moving forward from this are:

1)The moving of the Centre Back back to his original position right of centre, giving him a Cover duty. This should limit his rushing out as well as giving the Half Back more space to drop into the back line.

2)Giving the Half Back different Player Instructions. I will look to limit his closing down further, as well as trying to get him to track players that look to exploit the gap behind him. Close Down Much Less and Mark Tighter will be added.

3)The Full Backs will be asked to Sit Narrower in order to tighten the space up even further.

[jpcote09]

You've put a lot of effort/research into this and it shows. Congratulations for a great starting post and a great follow-up as well. I don't know a thing about that Hungarian system (apart from the chapter in Inverting the Pyramid, which I've read a long time ago so forgot a lot of it) but I feel like I've learned a little through reading you. Nice.

[Vizzini]

A Great analysis. Just one ting, I thought the "sit narrower" pi Was an in possession instruction, yes They Will be a little closer but will still leave huge gaps between the channels unnless you fix the HB, which I think is Key.

Your dlp-s is often cought upfield which leaves the HB confused as to close down or stand off, so maybe the problem is that he has to cover far to much space on his own. What kind of ppm's does he have? And What is his aggression-attribute?

[felley]

A Great analysis. Just one ting, I thought the "sit narrower" pi Was an in possession instruction, yes They Will be a little closer but will still leave huge gaps between the channels unnless you fix the HB, which I think is Key.

Your dlp-s is often cought upfield which leaves the HB confused as to close down or stand off, so maybe the problem is that he has to cover far to much space on his own. What kind of ppm's does he have? And What is his aggression-attribute?

Cheers for the reply. Come to think of it, you're right about "Sit Narrower" - it's something that I routinely forget. Perhaps your earlier suggestion of moving the Full Backs to Centre Backs would be more sensible, maybe just the one on the left side.

I hadn't even considered that the DLP may be causing a knock-on effect, as he usually seems relatively sensible in his screening. A duty change may focus him on sitting back but i'd still want him as a bit of a presence in possession.

I reckon i'll try a few solutions to the problem when I next get chance, but it might not be until Sunday!

[Pakito]

Question, isn't the HB working as expected?

I mean, looks to me like you want a central defender who steps up when in possession (http://i62.tinypic.com/2lcp8n8.jpg) and forms a standard back four when without (http://i59.tinypic.com/hsu8uf.jpg), whereas I'd expect a HB to (when in possession) either drop deep between defenders or float just in front of them depending on where treats are (in that first picture I imagine he's picking up the striker), and stay in front of the defence like an anchor when out of possession (just what he's doing in the second picture).

Now,

1. I have no idea how to get a central defender to step up when in possession.

2. A libero might step up when in possession, but I'm not sure he'll form a back four when defending (only tried him once with two ahead of him and saw him pushing them wide, so it might? But don't take my word.).

3. What about specific marking instructions for the half back? You can try telling him to pick up the right striker when facing a front two, or the lone striker leaving the DC as last man?

Btw, TREMENDOUS post. Love it.

[thizaum]

Question, isn't the HB working as expected?

I mean, looks to me like you want a central defender who steps up when in possession (http://i62.tinypic.com/2lcp8n8.jpg) and forms a standard back four when without (http://i59.tinypic.com/hsu8uf.jpg), whereas I'd expect a HB to (when in possession) either drop deep between defenders or float just in front of them depending on where treats are (in that first picture I imagine he's picking up the striker), and stay in front of the defence like an anchor when out of possession (just what he's doing in the second picture).

Well, that makes plenty of sense.

What he wants is an inverted half-back. It would be a Libero on support, but sitting on the CB strata, not the SW strata.

Maybe a stopper BPD with the right PIs?

[felley]

Question, isn't the HB working as expected?

I mean, looks to me like you want a central defender who steps up when in possession (http://i62.tinypic.com/2lcp8n8.jpg) and forms a standard back four when without (http://i59.tinypic.com/hsu8uf.jpg), whereas I'd expect a HB to (when in possession) either drop deep between defenders or float just in front of them depending on where treats are (in that first picture I imagine he's picking up the striker), and stay in front of the defence like an anchor when out of possession (just what he's doing in the second picture).

Now,

1. I have no idea how to get a central defender to step up when in possession.

2. A libero might step up when in possession, but I'm not sure he'll form a back four when defending (only tried him once with two ahead of him and saw him pushing them wide, so it might? But don't take my word.).

3. What about specific marking instructions for the half back? You can try telling him to pick up the right striker when facing a front two, or the lone striker leaving the DC as last man?

Btw, TREMENDOUS post. Love it.

I don't think it's a question of the Half Back doing things that are unexpected of his role, more that the overall balance is off in the centre of defence. As you and others have pointed out, he is having to do too much work in that he is both expected to close down ahead of the defence as well as form a back four when the team are in their "full" defensive shape.

You are also right to suggest alternatives as I'll be honest, I don't think the tight marking and closing down PI's will have the desired effect because someone will simply have to close down in the centre of the park if the DLP is occupied. Otherwise we run the risk of being completely dominated centrally.

I was actually doing a bit of brainstorming on my lunch break and I came up with what I imagined the defensive and attacking shapes would look like for this Hungary side.

Hidegkuti is quoted in Inverting the Pyramid as saying that he often took up a position on the left side of the midfield so this would be an option to maybe relieve/share the midfield duties of the Half Back (The Zakariás role)... If we are to assume that the formation selected in FM is the defensive shape - as has been discussed a few times - then maybe a 4-4-2 with a right sided DM would be the way forward?

Whichever way I continue with the project, there's certainly plenty to discuss! Thanks to everyone for contributing with suggestions so far. I reckon the best thing moving forward would be to test the 2-3 defensive ideas before completely changing shape. The only problem is that I'll be away from the PC for a few days so I won't be trying out these ideas just yet. As I mentioned at the beginning of the article, you should all feel free to contribute to testing, posting analysis and findings in this thread. I reckon we're not far off sorting the defence out.

[Pakito]

If we are to assume that the formation selected in FM is the defensive shape - as has been discussed a few times - then maybe a 4-4-2 with a right sided DM would be the way forward?

Well, I think that this is the catch-22: if the formation is indeed the defensive shape (which I reckon it is) and you go with a flat back 4, then you need the DCl to push up when in possession, but that won't happen*; if you play a wide back three + libero with the DC in the middle, him and the libero tend to get in each other's way (just tried); if you put the DC in DCr spot, you get a gap at DCl that the libero doesn't seem to cover effectively (the reverse of what you get with the HB).

* this thread (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/408136-To-Halfback-Libero-or-BPD-The-3-Center-Back-Conundrum) suggests that a BPd does step up in a recycling position when using a fluid mentality. You said that you picked structured because the formation was naturally staggered, you might want to give it a try now that you have a quasi-4-4-2 and need some extra movement going on?

I'd try the 4-4split-2 with BPd on fluid to see what happens, or have man marking instructions for the HB I guess

[thizaum]

You are also right to suggest alternatives as I'll be honest, I don't think the tight marking and closing down PI's will have the desired effect because someone will simply have to close down in the centre of the park if the DLP is occupied. Otherwise we run the risk of being completely dominated centrally.

Hidegkuti is quoted in Inverting the Pyramid as saying that he often took up a position on the left side of the midfield so this would be an option to maybe relieve/share the midfield duties of the Half Back (The Zakariás role).

This is why I suggested the Hidegkuti as an AP(a) on the CM strata instead of an AP(s) on the AM strata.

[felley]

Thank you both for your continued involvement and suggestions.

@Pakito

You've hit the nail on the head regarding the Half Back vs. Ball Playing Defender conundrum. That link is indeed useful and I had also been thinking myself about altering the team shape should I switch to a less staggered formation. If this brings the BPD forwards, then we could be onto a winner. It would also add a bit of variety to the attack which would be certainly in the spirit of the Magic Magyars.

@thizaum

I was actually thinking about your early suggested formation on the train home just now! I do like the 3-2-1 back to front in defence and think it looks quite elegant, but I would probably drop the wingers, advance the forwards and maybe adjust some of the other roles/duties. It would make sense to give the Advanced Playmaker an Attack duty should I drop him into the midfield strata because it is important that he spends a lot of time in the hole with his five passing options around him - I really think that is key to our attacking structure.

As an overarching point, it seems like i'm reaching a bit of a crossroads. I can continue with the staggered formation and more structured philosophy, defining each role very carefully but possibly risking instability through a lack of dynamism. Or I can adopt a more stable and balanced shape, using fluidity of movement to cover more areas and provide dynamic support whilst relinquishing a degree of control. I feel this is surely the essence of the "Structured vs. Fluid" debate and perhaps it is time to ask the question: "What would Sebes do?". I do expect his (supposed) socialist leanings may push him towards the mechanistic view, with just 1-2 players allowed to break from the plan. But Hungary's famed dynamic movement and bamboozlement of the opposition would surely suggest a flair to their play that would be more likely in a fluid team shape.

I suspect i'll try both!

[Pakito]

"What would Sebes do?". I do expect his (supposed) socialist leanings may push him towards the mechanistic view, with just 1-2 players allowed to break from the plan. But Hungary's famed dynamic movement and bamboozlement of the opposition would surely suggest a flair to their play that would be more likely in a fluid team shape.

Well, a socialist structure requires everybody's participation, but the full on commie ideal is the dream of a post-scarcity world in which everybody can do the hell they want, hence go with very fluid.

[rninejr]

DM - CB partnership wont be able to be as good as CB - CB partnership in defense. the coding between DM n DC is different, n a HB wont be treated as CB by ME. from the beginning, DM position and DC position already assigned with different task even before we give them roles. Libero could be the solution but too bad SI decided to change 2 sweeper slot into 1 slot in the center position. IMO fluid/very fluid suits hungary better, since they've been reckoned with intelligent movement inside opposition half. this also preventing the back 4 to be disconnected with the midfield strata (mostly, if more structured team shape is being used, since the back 4 are all assigned with defense duty)

then switch AP(S) with Enganche role is more suitable i think, for hidegkuti role. u want him to drop deep, not clashing positionally with the DLP, closing down less, n yet still capable to run forward inside opposition penalty box (EG has play further forward selectable)

it is also important that to achive the desired attacking shape u dont always need to use the formation that identical with the said shape. like a 4-4-1-1 can turn into 4-2-3-1 in attacking shape, or even 4-4-2 into 4-3-3 is possible.

anyway, good analysis. a thread like this is always be my favourite. looking forward for further updates

[Jonny2J]

What a great read this is.

[mydreamteam]

Great work.....this is one of the many reasons I love FM

[felley]

ANOTHER LOOK AT THE MAGYARS - GETTING THE DEFENCE RIGHT

After several days away from FM, a bit of discussion in the thread and plenty of mind-wandering moments thinking about how things will work in theory, it's finally time to get on with the actual business of football – playing the bloody game! In the last bit of analysis, I concluded that I would tighten up the defence by applying PI's to the Half Back and Full Backs... but after considering the points raised by Vizzini, thizaum and Pakito I started to think that the Half Back was perhaps the wrong choice of role altogether. The last nail in the coffin was an excerpt from the in-game duty description that I must've glossed over: “With a Half Back, the central defenders themselves will push higher up the pitch...”. This explained the sort of behaviour I was witnessing in the screenshots above where the Centre Back as well as the Half Back would vacate the centre of defence leaving me with a potential disaster should they not win the ball. What I needed instead was a role that would be focused heavily on defending, be less mobile and not encourage the Centre Back forward - i'll be trying out an Anchor Man.

The other big point to consider was the Deep Lying Playmaker. Vizzini had higlighted the tendency for the Half Back to have to cover too much ground due to the DLP being caught further up the pitch, so I opted for a simple change and adjusted his duty to defend. My attacking mentality will still mean he gets further up the pitch and involved in play, he will just focus more on screening allowing the two DM's to share the load whilst the Centre Back hoovers up players that get through,

Finally I should mention that I won't be changing formation to a 4-4-2 just yet. It just doesn't seem right and i'm honestly convinced I can at the very least create a balanced tactic that is mostly faithful to the Aranycsapat. It was awesome to see the team starting to form that classic shape on the field as the attacking structure came together (which i'm very pleased with), it's only that pesky defence that needs sorting out now...

So just to summarise, this is the tactic that i'll be rolling with during this next analysis:



Attacking

Structured

Shorter Passing, Work Ball Into Box, Play Out Of Defence

W(A), DLF(S), AF(A), WM(S) – Close Down More

WM(S) – Get Further Forward

SK(D) – Fewer Risky Passes, Distribute to CB©

As I have mentioned, this analysis will be pretty much all about how we defend as that is where the tactic is experiencing the most problems. The PKM for the game can be downloaded here:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/05e749

So, away we go!



In the first few minutes, I witness a shape that would become the pattern for the game as the DLP drops into the back line and the Anchor Man advances as the aggressor. We have formed a very solid shape here and it would take something special to beat us from this position. It is also good to see the Advanced Playmaker supporting the defence by picking up a midfielder. Strangely though, this could indicate that I have the roles the wrong way round as Zakariás (the left half) would be more likely to drop into the back line whilst Bozsik and Hidegkuti did the pressuring.



A few seconds later, I see a familiar problem as the opposition exploits the space behind the left-sided DM, between the Centre Back and left Full Back. The Anchor Man is caught pressuring ahead of the defence and doesn't track the man well enough resulting in a big opportunity for the opposition – in which they hit the post. This could be a marking error, but it may have been preventable if the Anchor Man wasn't so aggressive.



Here we see a slightly different problem that results in a similar bit of play for the opposition. This time, the Anchor Man has wandered forwards and failed to cover for the DLP pressing a little higher leaving clearly exploitable space ahead of and to the side of the Centre Back. It could be argued that the DLP is at fault as well, but I am hoping to get the two DM's working in tandem, covering for each other. Time and time again in this match, the DLP was covering for the Anchor Man, yet the Anchor Man failed to return the favour and was consistently dragged into midfield. A possible solution may be the dropping of the Advanced Playmaker into the midfield strata, making the DM's less aggressive, but it really feels like the DLP may be the right role for the left side.



I have included this average positions image to both highlight the point about the Anchor Man being further forward, and to provide a bit of context that may steady any rash changes for now. The number “5” replaced number “44” in around the 70th minute, and in the final part of the game recorded a much deeper position – much closer to where I would expect. The context is that my number “5” is slower and not as aggressive as my number “44” so this may account for the sloppy positioning at the back.

Finally, I have included this small image showing the shots and the chances from the game. My attacking play was encouraging once more as the forwards and two wide players occupied and stretched the defence, allowing the Advanced Playmaker to find space and pick out the right pass. The Anchorman and DLP also provided good options for recycling and switching the play.



As you can see, we created plenty of “chances” (though i'm aware that the ME isn't perfect at calculating scoring chances) and took plenty of shots inside of and just outside the box. Most of the shots from outside the area were free kicks, but there were a couple from my Advanced Forward when he panicked and rushed the opportunity due to being a little bit ahead of play. I think i'll add the PI Shoot Less Often in an effort to calm him down and encourage the chance to be crafted more carefully. The Advanced Playmaker took a couple of pot shots too, but this could be explained by the flair attribute so I won't be adding a PI just yet.

So in summary, i'll be making a couple of changes:

1)The Anchor Man becomes a Deep Lying Playmaker on Defend duty as I want to replicate the movement from the last match but on the other side. The right sided DM for Hungary was more likely to push forwards, but I will hope to achieve this by playing the faster, more aggressive player on this side. The pairing of the roles should hopefully give me a more balanced sharing of the duties in this part of the pitch.

2)Shoot Less Often added to the Advanced Forward.

[rninejr]

I just tried some tactis to mimic this theory. ended up with this

A nearly flat 4-4-2. Im using a regista instead of 2 flat CMs. Flexible/Standart. minus zakarias's playstyle since no CB cant act like him. as for hidegkuti's role im using a CM with BBM role rather than an AMC. TI are: much higher defensive line, roam from position, prevent short GK Distribution, Offside trap, short pass, and Works ball into box. for closing down i set each player personally rather than using TI

line up:

GK: Sweeper Keeper - Support

PI: Flexible, depends on the current situation of the match. Between lay the ball to a nearby player or play the ball far ahead for counter attack

DR: Wing Back - Support

PI: Stay wider, cross aim far post. Cross more often (situational). Closing down is also situational, depends on the opposition winger and strategy. but mostly Closing down more

DCR: Central Defender - Defend

PI: Close Down More

DCL: Ball Playing Defender - Defend

PI: Close Down More

DL: Wing Back - Defense

PI: Cross aim far post. Closing down is situational, depends on the opposition winger and strategy. but mostly Closing down more

DMCR: Regista - Support

PI: Dribble less, more direct passes (situational)

MR: Wide Midfielder - Attack

PI: Sit Narrower, Cross aim Center, Cross from deep, roam from position, mark tighter, Cuts inside, close down more

MCL: Box to Box Midfielder - Support

PI: Mark Tigher, Moves into channels, more risky passes, cross from deep

ML: Wide Midfielder - Attack

PI: Stay Wider, Cross aim Far Post, mark tighter, Cross from byline, dribble more (situational)

STCR: Advanced Forward - Attack

PI: Mark Tighter, Roam from Position, more risky passes

STCL: Deep-Lying Forward - Support

PI: Mark Tighter, Close down more, roam from position, moves into channels

The Key here is the asymmetrical movement between both flanks. the WB(s) on the right side provides a safe passing option for both regista and MR. he will move forward if the team is reaching opposition's third, again to provide a safe passing route, width, and also to deliver a cross if needed, n to press opposition winger if the team is losing possession high up the pitch. the MR, instructed to sit narrow in order to linking up with both regista and DR (if the MR is not instructed to sit narrow, my regista oftenly find it difficult to get the ball to him). he acts like a slightly deeper inside forward minus it ambitious dribble n that is what i want from him. his narrow movement is covered by the DR, n it's not rare to see him scores by picking up near byline crosses from the ML or diagonal crosses from the MCL. the regista is the main motor of the team, dictating the play from deep n positioning himself slighly further if the team is reaching opposition box to recycle possession. his diagonal through ball to the left winger is something I admire, beautifully cutting through a tight defense. n what surprise me is that he is quite good at defense, oftenly neglect opposition's counter attack with his intelligent positioning.

for the left flank, at first i thought it would not receive the ball oftenly but turned out i was wrong. the BBM's passing count is not far behind my regista, quite close in fact. but their main job is to offer penetration n they've done well so far. working together with the deep movement of DLF, the left flank proved to be deadly. their through passes and crosses are the main source of assists, n the BBM's forward run gave us on some important goals agaisnt compact defence. the DL's task is simple, to provide safe passing route for ML, BBM, and regista (in case bbm is running forward). the AF-A, is our main focal point when attacking. aside of scoring the most, he also delivered some assists himself. also oftenly drift wider to the right flank to give the MR space to be exploited. his one-two combination with DLF is what gave the latter most of his goals.

this tactic is now my main tactic. replacing my old 4-1-2-2-1 (along with its variants) which already used for the first 3 seasons. this might be different with the original concept but this is what my players are suited with.

i will try another variant, which is using a sweeper as zakaria's role. 2 DCs, 1 sweeper, n 1 wingback. but the tactic is still not fluid enough

[felley]

Interesting setup. I'd love to see some screenshots of the tactic in action or if you haven't got time, a PKM. I'm particularly interested to see whether you have managed to get the right shape in the transition/attacking phase - the transition from the quasi back four to the MM is what made the Aranycsapat unique (at least in terms of positioning). It sounds like you are creating plenty of chances and I imagine your back four is more stable than what I am currently using, just by design and the ME's interpretation really.

I will say though that I think that you are a few steps away from your tactic being faithful to the Hungarians, but you have recognised that yourself and adapted the ideas to suit your players. Obviously that's fair enough!

I'm currently rolling with the latest revision (two DLP(D)) and if i'm honest it's looking pretty good after 5 games. More sensible at the back but just as deadly up front. I'll probably blast through with a good 10-20 games before I next do a bit of analysis as it is looking much more stable.

Cheers for getting involved though and offering another angle

[thizaum]

1)The Anchor Man becomes a Deep Lying Playmaker on Defend duty as I want to replicate the movement from the last match but on the other side. The right sided DM was more likely to push forwards, but I will hope to achieve this by playing the faster, more aggressive player on this side. The pairing of the roles should hopefully give me a more balanced sharing of the duties in this part of the pitch.

2)Shoot Less Often added to the Advanced Forward.[/color][/i][/b][/center]

What I think the problem is is the aggression. The anchor man tends to close down the opponents more, so he won't drop back.

On the other hand, the DLP is much more passive.

On my first post here, I mention that you DLP should be DM(s), as he could give you much more support in your midfield, but maybe the team could be too weak on defense.

Also, it seems that you (we) are paying too much attention on position per role and too little on "on ball behaviour". Is this player (Bozsik) supposed to carry the ball forward or try a risky or direct pass? And now, that you want to switch them, is you "half back" supposed to do that?

I would suggest going with DM(d) on the left, DM(s) on the right and adjust the PIs.

[thizaum]

I just tried some tactis to mimic this theory. ended up with this

A nearly flat 4-4-2. Im using a regista instead of 2 flat CMs. Flexible/Standart. minus zakarias's playstyle since no CB cant act like him. as for hidegkuti's role im using a CM with BBM role rather than an AMC. TI are: much higher defensive line, roam from position, prevent short GK Distribution, Offside trap, short pass, and Works ball into box. for closing down i set each player personally rather than using TI

line up:

GK: Sweeper Keeper - Support

PI: Flexible, depends on the current situation of the match. Between lay the ball to a nearby player or play the ball far ahead for counter attack

DR: Wing Back - Support

PI: Stay wider, cross aim far post. Cross more often (situational). Closing down is also situational, depends on the opposition winger and strategy. but mostly Closing down more

DCR: Central Defender - Defend

PI: Close Down More

DCL: Ball Playing Defender - Defend

PI: Close Down More

DL: Wing Back - Defense

PI: Cross aim far post. Closing down is situational, depends on the opposition winger and strategy. but mostly Closing down more

DMCR: Regista - Support

PI: Dribble less, more direct passes (situational)

MR: Wide Midfielder - Attack

PI: Sit Narrower, Cross aim Center, Cross from deep, roam from position, mark tighter, Cuts inside, close down more

MCL: Box to Box Midfielder - Support

PI: Mark Tigher, Moves into channels, more risky passes, cross from deep

ML: Wide Midfielder - Attack

PI: Stay Wider, Cross aim Far Post, mark tighter, Cross from byline, dribble more (situational)

STCR: Advanced Forward - Attack

PI: Mark Tighter, Roam from Position, more risky passes

STCL: Deep-Lying Forward - Support

PI: Mark Tighter, Close down more, roam from position, moves into channels

The Key here is the asymmetrical movement between both flanks. the WB(s) on the right side provides a safe passing option for both regista and MR. he will move forward if the team is reaching opposition's third, again to provide a safe passing route, width, and also to deliver a cross if needed, n to press opposition winger if the team is losing possession high up the pitch. the MR, instructed to sit narrow in order to linking up with both regista and DR (if the MR is not instructed to sit narrow, my regista oftenly find it difficult to get the ball to him). he acts like a slightly deeper inside forward minus it ambitious dribble n that is what i want from him. his narrow movement is covered by the DR, n it's not rare to see him scores by picking up near byline crosses from the ML or diagonal crosses from the MCL. the regista is the main motor of the team, dictating the play from deep n positioning himself slighly further if the team is reaching opposition box to recycle possession. his diagonal through ball to the left winger is something I admire, beautifully cutting through a tight defense. n what surprise me is that he is quite good at defense, oftenly neglect opposition's counter attack with his intelligent positioning.

for the left flank, at first i thought it would not receive the ball oftenly but turned out i was wrong. the BBM's passing count is not far behind my regista, quite close in fact. but their main job is to offer penetration n they've done well so far. working together with the deep movement of DLF, the left flank proved to be deadly. their through passes and crosses are the main source of assists, n the BBM's forward run gave us on some important goals agaisnt compact defence. the DL's task is simple, to provide safe passing route for ML, BBM, and regista (in case bbm is running forward). the AF-A, is our main focal point when attacking. aside of scoring the most, he also delivered some assists himself. also oftenly drift wider to the right flank to give the MR space to be exploited. his one-two combination with DLF is what gave the latter most of his goals.

this tactic is now my main tactic. replacing my old 4-1-2-2-1 (along with its variants) which already used for the first 3 seasons. this might be different with the original concept but this is what my players are suited with.

i will try another variant, which is using a sweeper as zakaria's role. 2 DCs, 1 sweeper, n 1 wingback. but the tactic is still not fluid enough

I couldn't find the mentality (or whatever the name for that is... counter, control, etc).

It looks terribly dangerous defensively, but I might be wrong depending on the mentality.

The Regista won't care and the BBM will care sometimes. Who will help on the midfield?

[felley]

What I think the problem is is the aggression. The anchor man tends to close down the opponents more, so he won't drop back.

On the other hand, the DLP is much more passive.

On my first post here, I mention that you DLP should be DM(s), as he could give you much more support in your midfield, but maybe the team could be too weak on defense.

Also, it seems that you (we) are paying too much attention on position per role and too little on "on ball behaviour". Is this player (Bozsik) supposed to carry the ball forward or try a risky or direct pass? And now, that you want to switch them, is you "half back" supposed to do that?

I would suggest going with DM(d) on the left, DM(s) on the right and adjust the PIs.

I think one of the problems is that the roles of the Aranycsapat can be interpreted differently. I've mainly used one article, a couple of tactics boards and a quote from Hidegkuti to inform my understanding of a tactic that was doing the kicking about 60-odd years ago. If I was to give a basic outline of the two defensive midfield roles I would say that the LDM is expected to drop into the back line to form a back four, whilst the RDM acts as the link man (along with the Advanced Playmaker), starting deep but staying in touching distance of the front line should they need an out ball.

I've just played my 13th game with the tactic in it's current guise and although the team is storming the league (our record in all competitions is W8 D2 L3) and we have scored 34 goals, we have also conceded 24 and countless chances that could have easily swung the games were the opposition more clinical. The truth is that it's actually a fairly faithful representation of the Hungarian system in that it was all about attacking movement and combination play. The Magic Magyars regularly shipped plenty of goals, winning by sheer power of their attack.

Your suggestion of the split role DM's is a decent one, though i'd be concerned that the supporting player would be missing from the defence on occasion. I suppose the next port of call is to try and drop the Advanced Playmaker back to the midfield strata and see if it gives us a bit more stability.

[rninejr]

I couldn't find the mentality (or whatever the name for that is... counter, control, etc).

It looks terribly dangerous defensively, but I might be wrong depending on the mentality.

The Regista won't care and the BBM will care sometimes. Who will help on the midfield?

Mentality: Standart. Team Shape: Flexible

this is how we press our opposition

we just lost the ball near their penalty area, then Lucas moura received the ball from lanalla. Schnneiderlin immediately press him aggresively, forcing moura to pass quickly to coutinho

Carrick is about to close down coutinho. albeit being slow, he is in the right position to do so. u can see countinho's passing options are quite limited because im playing with a high D-line and compact. Targett (DL) and Robertson (DC) are ready to intercept anytime. again, like moura, countinho decide to pass the ball quickly to balotelli

Balotelli is being sorrouned, no safe pass option available. Robertson sucessfully retake the ball. Than, as a BPD he launch a long ball to Michu

Michu quickly send a through pass to Jay rodriguez. this turn out to be a CCC but mignolet is amazing on this match. no goal for us

another way to defense:

liverpool is on build up phase. Carrick once again tried to closing down countinho. coutinho quickly pass the ball to Johnson. but McCarthy ( our Defender Right) is already there to press him. Notice the unnamed player on our right flank (our MR, the WM-A) is tracking back to compensate McCarthy's positioning.

Johnson quickly pass to balotelli but schenneiderlin is there to challenge the italian striker. Robertson is also coming to add more pressure. Balotelli pass the ball back to Coutinho

But Carrick is still nearby, n we win the ball back. Look at the unnamed player on jose fonte's right side. he is our MR (WM-A), who've been running back to cover the space left behind by McCarthy.

Rodriguez launch a long through ball for tadic on the left flank. another CCC yet mignolet is still capable to repel our effort.

basically, to defend is not the job of specific players. all players can help the defense, even by their mere presence. This game against liverpool was a lost but Im glad with how the new tactic works. we were forced to deploy youngsters coz of fitness problem. n it's not like my main squad is compatible for this tactic (being used with possession 4-1-2-2-1 for a long time)

[thizaum]

I see.

Your defence helps the midfield, instead of the other way around. It makes sense.

[felley]

@rninejr

Any chance you could upload a PKM whilst using this tactic? I'd like to see whether it would be capable of forming the right sort of shape in attack as well as check out the impact of the pressing structure you have on the defensive shape.

I must say that at a glance, I think your system is quite a bit removed from the Aranycsapat and it concerns me that your midfield pair will never hold any sort of shape - instead using energy to try and disrupt the opposition. I think the BBM should be a RPM or AP to be honest as the play needs to be focused through him. As for the RGA, you may be better off giving him a more defensive oriented role/duty so he acts as a link to the forward line and the playmaker, rather than having license to appear all over the midfield.

That said, my current system struggles for balance too and as I mentioned, Hungary weren't the best side at stopping the opposition, so it depends on the risk you want to take. My tactic is blitzing the goals, but I reckon if I tried it in a top league, i'd soon find out how disastrous it can be! Might be a good next step in terms of testing actually.

[rninejr]

@rninejr

Any chance you could upload a PKM whilst using this tactic? I'd like to see whether it would be capable of forming the right sort of shape in attack as well as check out the impact of the pressing structure you have on the defensive shape.

I must say that at a glance, I think your system is quite a bit removed from the Aranycsapat and it concerns me that your midfield pair will never hold any sort of shape - instead using energy to try and disrupt the opposition. I think the BBM should be a RPM or AP to be honest as the play needs to be focused through him. As for the RGA, you may be better off giving him a more defensive oriented role/duty so he acts as a link to the forward line and the playmaker, rather than having license to appear all over the midfield.

That said, my current system struggles for balance too and as I mentioned, Hungary weren't the best side at stopping the opposition, so it depends on the risk you want to take. My tactic is blitzing the goals, but I reckon if I tried it in a top league, i'd soon find out how disastrous it can be! Might be a good next step in terms of testing actually.

i will, when i get back at home

again, formation is just the basic shape of defensive positioning. it is what matter on the field. n I admit it's not quite relevant with the original topic. we are only missing Zakaria's role tbh. By using a RPM it will reduce the potential penetration force of the left flank, not to mention i would lack penetration from the central area. also, i dont have any CM with good dribbling and pace (RPM has dribble more already active).

I tried it once, but my attack became too slow. both strikers were kinda isolated since only both winger were nearby. Like I said, at first i thought the left flank would not receive enough ball but it was wrong. why i need more playmaker if my bbm receive enough ball? his passing count usually only ±10 passes behind the regista.

positionally, the midfield duo are quite close to each other (vertically) in the heat map. at defense, other players will help the midfield, by staying compact on opposition half. u can see when we lost possession our formation is not 4-4-2ish. the key here, is the closing down setting for each player and Opposition's instruction. OI is what makes this system works. n I set this manually. robertson wouldnt dare to step up to challenge balotelli if I didnt set balotelli to be closed down always. McCarthy wouldnt close down glen johnson if I didnt set him to be closed down always. my MR wouldnt step back so deep (see he appeared like a DR) if I instructed him to close down more (I gave no closing down instruction to him at that match). OI is tricky, it can be help or disaster. this also means, this system isnt plug n play tactic. U need to adjust. depends on the current situation on the pitch. But im still insist to force my opponent to adapt towards my team's play style.

at 1st half against liverpool, we're quite dominate them. it was when they switched to a counter strategy, using 2 strikers instead of 1 like the first half (they deploy sturridge alongside balotelli on the 2nd half), my team started to fall apart. cant be help, their player's overall pace is superior. not to mention I was using attacking movement as match training menu.

it's like what Thizaum said. it's not my midfielders who help my defenders to defense. it's my defenders who helps the midfielders to defense. because i set my defensive block high up the pitch. my players starts to closing down opposition immediately after we lost possession.

[thizaum]

at 1st half against liverpool, we're quite dominate them. it was when they switched to a counter strategy, using 2 strikers instead of 1 like the first half (they deploy sturridge alongside balotelli on the 2nd half), my team started to fall apart. cant be help, their player's overall pace is superior. not to mention I was using attacking movement as match training menu.

it's like what Thizaum said. it's not my midfielders who help my defenders to defense. it's my defenders who helps the midfielders to defense. because i set my defensive block high up the pitch. my players starts to closing down opposition immediately after we lost possession.

Well, putting the whole "mimicking the Aranycsapat" thing aside, your system has a clear weakness: defending against quick forwards. In real life, I would bring a quick offensive left winger and a Treq, SS or DLF(a) with plenty of pace and acceleration against you.

By the way, I've always wondered about this and apparently you know the answer: what's the use in a Wing Back with defensive duty? How is he different from the FB(d) when you have a wing midfielder in front of him?

He will attack as rarely as a FB(d), but when he does, he'll go further?

In the formation that I've been using nowadays, I have a FB(a) behind a W(s) and a WB(s) behind an IF(a). It was like that that I got the best balance.

[rninejr]

Well, putting the whole "mimicking the Aranycsapat" thing aside, your system has a clear weakness: defending against quick forwards. In real life, I would bring a quick offensive left winger and a Treq, SS or DLF(a) with plenty of pace and acceleration against you.

By the way, I've always wondered about this and apparently you know the answer: what's the use in a Wing Back with defensive duty? How is he different from the FB(d) when you have a wing midfielder in front of him?

He will attack as rarely as a FB(d), but when he does, he'll go further?

In the formation that I've been using nowadays, I have a FB(a) behind a W(s) and a WB(s) behind an IF(a). It was like that that I got the best balance.

I went on a grudge match against chelsea, along with its pacey winger, u know who. We won 3:2, their goals came from a long flat throw in n a ridiculous long shot from 30 yards. What chelsea did is forcing me to give them lot of set piece by ambitious dribble from inside of their own half n numerous long shots. They got no real chance in open play.

IMO, what I find difficult to deal with is, a good possession tactic. I lost 4-1 against bayern, n 1-3 against arsenal. N I'm still not sure how. They were keeping the ball quite long n discipline then suddenly 3-4 players burst forward towards my area hahahaha

About Wingback things

- The main task of the role is to offer a sufficient defensive cover on the flank. then step up higher to offer width when it's safe, n deliver deep crosses. Thought its behaviour can be slightly vary depends on your team shape n mentality

- the main different between WB n FB is their willingness to step up higher to offer width n their willingness to stay high up the pitch. FB generally (not counting the duty) is more inclined to help defense n cover their area compared to WB, n will go back earlier. WB is more inclined to overlap n to stay higher. I've tried using both WB(d) n FB(d) on the same match. I find the WB was overlapping more often, compared to the latter.

- both WB and FB share a same habit. If there is no winger/wide forward ahead of them, they will step up earlier n slightly further. But IMO if u're not using any winger/wide forwad, it is better not to give your wide defender a defend duty since that duty discouraging forward run, n no one to offer width at all

Hope it can help u

[thizaum]

I went on a grudge match against chelsea, along with its pacey winger, u know who. We won 3:2, their goals came from a long flat throw in n a ridiculous long shot from 30 yards. What chelsea did is forcing me to give them lot of set piece by ambitious dribble from inside of their own half n numerous long shots. They got no real chance in open play.

IMO, what I find difficult to deal with is, a good possession tactic. I lost 4-1 against bayern, n 1-3 against arsenal. N I'm still not sure how. They were keeping the ball quite long n discipline then suddenly 3-4 players burst forward towards my area hahahaha

About Wingback things

- The main task of the role is to offer a sufficient defensive cover on the flank. then step up higher to offer width when it's safe, n deliver deep crosses. Thought its behaviour can be slightly vary depends on your team shape n mentality

- the main different between WB n FB is their willingness to step up higher to offer width n their willingness to stay high up the pitch. FB generally (not counting the duty) is more inclined to help defense n cover their area compared to WB, n will go back earlier. WB is more inclined to overlap n to stay higher. I've tried using both WB(d) n FB(d) on the same match. I find the WB was overlapping more often, compared to the latter.

- both WB and FB share a same habit. If there is no winger/wide forward ahead of them, they will step up earlier n slightly further. But IMO if u're not using any winger/wide forwad, it is better not to give your wide defender a defend duty since that duty discouraging forward run, n no one to offer width at all

Hope it can help u

Fair enough!

Thanks for the answer. It's what I thought.

But who would you say is more offensive minded, a FB(a) or a WB(s), for example?

[rninejr]

double post

[rninejr]

Fair enough!

Thanks for the answer. It's what I thought.

But who would you say is more offensive minded, a FB(a) or a WB(s), for example?

Ofc the FB(a). But FB(a) is more readily to get back to his original position than WB(s)

[thizaum]

Ofc the FB(a). But FB(a) is more readily to get back to his original position than WB(s)

Got it! Tks

[rninejr]

So finally I solve zakaria's role problem which is not exist

So I finally decided to make the role itself, or actually "change" something.

I also change other thing

It's kinda cheating in a hard way. Hope for the next edition SI will make an overlap centerback

[nie jem frytek]

Why not use False Nine instead of Deep-Lying Forward?

[felley]

I'll be honest, i'm a bit baffled by your post, rninejr... Not sure how you've got the attack duty on a CB or what is going on in the second screenshot.

I've actually been too busy for FM these last few weeks, but I did end up sticking to the system in post #25 with the Anchor-DLP combo. Played through most of the season and pretty much trounced the league so I consider that to be a success. It seems obvious to say, but it's a tactic that relies on having excellent defenders and if that fails, blind luck! Goals are guaranteed both ends really.

As a general summary to my little project, i'm not sure the ME can really handle a lone CB and the defensive fluidity between the back line and midfield is not sophisticated enough to allow a replication of a tactic so old school. That said, I managed to mitigate the weaknesses of the formation and ended up having a lot of fun. I suspect Vizzini's solution of a back three would be the way forward if I were to come back to this or try again in FM16.